(After the episode aired, I heard from two widow–one younger and one older–and shared their reactions in my newsletter.)

Transcript from my conversation with my mom:

Introducing my mom

Nina: Our topic today is navigating friendship as a widow, and it won’t surprise longtime listeners and my own personal friends to hear that my guest is my mom, Kathy Sackheim, who lost her husband–my dad–in December 2022. Mom, welcome back to the show and welcome back to Minneapolis.

Kathy: Thank you for having me.

Nina: So it’s exciting to have my mom here in my little home studio. For listeners who are new, my mom has been a guest advice giver in the written version of my friendship column for many, many years. And she was the guest for episodes 1 and 8. In episode #1, we talked about friends who will only text and I taught her how to use emojis live. And on #8, we talked about friends who ask questions you don’t really want to answer. But today’s topic is a lot bigger.

Making friends as newlyweds

So Mom, I think we should get to it. And thank you for being willing to do this because I have had people ask me about this topic because they knew that dad died and also they’re dealing with this maybe in their own lives or for their own parents. So before we talk about friendship and social life as a widow, I think we need to understand what your social life was like when you were married to Dad. Can we start with that? What was your social life like before he got sick? Also when you were newlyweds.

Kathy: Well, when we were newlyweds, I was still in college. When I graduated, suddenly all my friends left [00:02:00] town and I was kind of left friendless. So I started joining organizations. We joined a couple’s club at our synagogue and little by little, we developed a group of friends–lots of friends. We had social plans Friday nights, Saturday nights. Sometimes we went to movies. We went to theater. We were in a bridge group for 50 years where we met once a month. The people in our bridge group got to be really friendly. We were all at each other’s weddings, children’s weddings bar and bat mitzvahs, birthday parties, anniversary parties. We really had an active social life.

Nina: So that’s when you first were married. You were a senior, right? When you got married at Northwestern?

Kathy: I was the middle of my junior year, actually.

Nina: My goodness. So young, so young. For listeners who don’t know, my mom is from upstate New York. So Chicago wasn’t her hometown, but it was my dad’s hometown. Did Dad have friends that he had kept from high school and younger? Like when you guys were first living in Chicago, were you hanging out at all with people from his childhood? [00:03:00]  You know, I never really asked that before. I’m interested to know that.

Kathy: He went to law school for a year. We had that friend, he went to business school. We had that friend. So there were a couple friends, but they weren’t from high school or grammar school.

Nina: Okay. That’s interesting. And I ask that, everybody, because my parents ended up living in the same town where my dad grew up and where I ended up growing up in the town where my husband grew up. Okay, but those weren’t the people that he hung out with. You  made fresh friends. So anyway, you did a lot of couple things. And what about your own friends? Were all of your friends part of a couple, or do you think you had friends who were your own friends?

Social life as couples and alone

Kathy: I had my own social life. I had my lady friends, my girlfriends. I was in a book club. I joined things that Dad had no interest in. And he had his sports friends–people he went to football games with and something, I had no interest in.

Nina: And then, do you feel like your parents had a lot of friends? Is this something you saw as important or did your parents not have a lot of friends and [00:04:00] therefore you saw it as important? 

Kathy: They had some friends, they didn’t always sustain their friends for long periods of time. And I had no family in Chicago, so friends became my family.

Nina: That makes sense. And I get that, although I have family here and you did have family in Chicago, it just wasn’t the family that we are related to. But yes, I get what you’re saying. It wasn’t the family you were born to. Then how did dad’s diagnosis change your social life? How old were you? How old was dad? I know a lot of this, obviously, but I think for listeners, it’s interesting to have context.

Living with Parkinson’s Disease

Kathy: Dad was diagnosed with Parkinson’s disease at age 58. I was 54. The first few years were fine. Things went on as I had before.  When he died, he had Parkinson’s disease for 23 years. For those people who don’t know what that is, it’s a neurological disease that’s degenerative. It doesn’t get better. It only gets worse. [00:05:00] 

He was wheelchair bound for the last 12 years. And by then, we had to get some help in the house because I could no longer handle him physically. For a while we continued to go to theater, we would go to movies. We would go to restaurants with friends. I would say the last year and a half pretty much if people wanted to see us, they came to our house. We would order in, moving him physically just became too much of a problem for me. And toward the end, he was nodding off in the middle of dinner. He had some dementia. Our social life kind of diminished. And I would go out with friends and I did some traveling without him. And he was okay with that.

Nina: It seemed like your friends were really around a lot. It didn’t seem like you stopped going out with people. I’m not saying you were as active as often, but your friends really seem to always show up.

Kathy: They did. Right. But they came to us.

Nina: Yeah, well that is showing up, right? I love your friends. I’ve always felt close to your [00:06:00] friends, and I think that’s a great way people can be helpful, right. Doing what’s easy for the person who maybe has the biggest need at the time. And people’s needs change over time. There’ll be times when you’re going be going to people’s houses because it’s easier for them.

Kathy: Right.

Nina: Okay. We’re making our way towards widowhood, but I mean, that’s an important moment in your life, too, when things changed because Dad’s health changed. It seemed like it was really important to Dad to keep seeing friends and to keep living life as much as possible.

Kathy: Well, I think I mentioned this to you before, but when he got his diagnosis, I was upset at first, but I made the decision that I wasn’t going to go into a depressive episode that I never wanted to look back and say, I spent all of this time worrying instead of living and enjoying him when I could and when he was able to do things. So I felt that we did what we [00:07:00] could. And we lived life in the fullest way we possibly could while he could.

Nina: Yeah, I’d say so. I mean, you guys traveled a ton and you always seemed busy even far past probably what a lot of people might have done, because it was hard.

Kathy: The last trip he was wheelchair bound and we were in Europe and then with the cobblestone streets, I knew this was it. It was too hard on him.

Friendship changes as a widow

Nina: Yeah. Hard on him. Hard on you. So now with Dad no longer with us, how has your social life changed?

Kathy: Well, I’m 77 now and a number of my friends are widows. So I have a group of female friends that I do things with. It’s interesting because since we talked about doing this episode, I’ve talked to a few different people about how they felt about [00:08:00] being widows. And one woman was telling me that she goes out with her close friends who were married and the three of them go out and the couple walks ahead of her holding hands. And there she is by herself feeling terrible. I haven’t had that experience, but I can certainly empathize with her.

The fact that this was an ongoing illness and went on for so long and the fact that I had to handle all our finances and all our everything for a long time, I wasn’t left with that shock because I was already doing everything.

Another friend told me her husband died suddenly and he had always planned everything and he was the one who worked up enthusiasm for trips and planning and all of a sudden she couldn’t do any of that. And she was feeling that lack. Other people say they try to depend on their children. I think you can say I don’t do that to you. I will say the only thing I depend on my sons-in-laws for is when I get into a tech problem and I’m [00:09:00] feeling somewhat hysterical and the boys have been good about that.

Nina: I can’t say Bryan is helpful in that capacity probably at all. First of all, we don’t live there, but thank goodness you have two sons-in-law in Chicago who are both pretty techy.

Kathy: Yeah. Yeah. So they’ve been good about that. And I try not to impose on my children.

Nina: You never have, and you really could more if you wanted to. Just so everyone knows, I’m not sitting here being like, don’t ask me to do stuff.

Kathy: I’ve always been independent. And I always thought that a woman had to have her own life apart from her children and her husband. I thought that was important.

Nina: Yeah. I definitely received that message and I try to live that way too as much as possible. I related to what you said about your friend who felt that her husband drummed up a lot of enthusiasm for trips. Bryan definitely does a lot of the planning. If we are going away for winter break with a couple of friends, it’s Bryan and the two wives do the planning. I just don’t like to plan trips. I don’t know why, I don’t. I too many decisions to make. And I don’t like to be responsible for [00:10:00] mundane things like renting a car. Didn’t dad do that stuff?

Kathy: He did when he could yes.

Nina: Yeah, okay. 

Kathy: The worst part of being a widow, I think, is the loneliness at times. Another friend was saying the worst part is dinner time and eating dinner by yourself. I turn on the TV and I listen to the news so I feel like at least there’s somebody there, there’s some conversation, even if it’s not with me.

Nina: You told me something once soon after dad died that there’s sort of an unspoken rule about who pays for what?

Kathy: Yeah, this is interesting. I’ve been taken out for dinner by a couple friends. The first time the husband pays. After that, I insist on paying for myself. Sometimes I’ll get a separate check. Sometimes it makes sense to just figure out two thirds, one third, but that seems to be the protocol.

Nina: And do people generally respect that wish of yours? I think it makes sense. When we talked about it at the time, it makes sense to me that you would want to pay for yourself so that people would not feel [00:11:00] hesitation on inviting you. Not that your close friends wouldn’t be happy to treat, but it could go on God willing for many, many years. And you just want to take care of yourself. I guess I get that. Do you have friends who are in a couple still, but who do things with just you one on one more than they used to? Or I guess you were probably doing stuff alone because of dad’s condition for a while already. But you understand what I’m getting at? Other people who maybe know that you have more time, you have more availability. I mean, you couldn’t leave Dad after certain time of night, let’s say like, are you more available therefore they are more available?

Kathy: I seem to be busy.

Nina: You really are. Listeners–I call my mom. She’s never home, ever.

Kathy: I’m in some film classes, so I have classes at night sometimes, and then I have to watch the film before the class. So I have to do that. I didn’t answer your question. We had enough friends. So we didn’t see any particular friends all the time. So people call sometimes even if it’s last [00:12:00] minute. For example, a lady friend and I had tickets to Ravinia, that’s where the Chicago symphony comes in the summer for your listeners. A couple friends said, we’re going to dinner before the concert. You want to join us? So the couple, my friend and I joined them. So it was one man, three women. He was fine with it.

Nina: Any other advice you have about this stage of life and friendship?

General marriage advice for later in life– Know Your Financial Details

Kathy: I would say to your listeners, that they need to know where insurance policies are. They need to really be financially up to date.  I’ve had a couple friends say they didn’t know where anything was. They didn’t know how to do anything. And that’s a mistake. You need to know. Even before Dad died, I made a list of all the bills and when they were due, since I was paying them. I pretty much knew what had to be paid every month. Insurance policies, the insurance premiums–I had to get the tax stuff ready for the accountant. Those are things every woman should be able to do [00:13:00] because when the spouse dies to have to deal with the loss and not knowing how to do anything is really, really bad.

Nina: I think about that a lot. You’ve told me that before, and I do pay attention to stuff. I mean, I do feel like Bryan does a lot of things and he talks to me about them and we talk about them, but it’s like, I don’t want to deal with them sometimes.

And so everyone know, my mom’s giving me a look, she’s giving me the look.

I heard recently that there’s a woman in town in Minneapolis. I don’t know her name. Her job is, I think, she’s a retired maybe lawyer of some kind. She has a business of doing exactly this, like coming into someone’s house. It could be a crisis, or it could be a situation where you knew it was coming, but all of a sudden there’s a lot on your plate and she helps you deal with things like recovering passwords and finding all the stuff and figuring out what’s what- what needs to happen. I mean, isn’t that a brilliant business. There [00:14:00] probably could be a lot of people who would need a service like that.

Mom, anything we didn’t cover?

New Friends as a Widow. Be open to meeting new people!

Kathy: One person told me who was widowed suddenly that she was given the advice that if anyone invites you to do anything, just do it. And it’s nice to be open to making new friends.

I took a philosophy class on what is the meaning of life. We never did figure it out by the way, but somebody in the class called me and said, I saw you and your husband at the theater. And I knew right away that we would get along and she invited me to go out to lunch.

Nina: Ah, what a success story.

Kathy: Yeah. And then I invited her to the house for lunch, and then we had lunch with a couple other people.

Nina: Mom, we could do an entire episode just about that, because that is the kind of thing that I get a lot of questions about. I mean, people really struggle to make friends at all stages of life. So you’re telling me, somebody reached out to you and basically kind of asked you out on a friend date? In a way she said, I’ve noticed you. [00:15:00] She realized that dad had died or? 

Kathy: She knew he had died.

Nina: Okay 

Kathy: Okay. Yeah So, her husband had died and also after a long illness.

Nina: Oh, interesting. But you really only knew each other from this class. And  this was a zoom class, right?

Kathy: A zoom class. Yeah.

Nina: I like to know details. She already had your email address? Did she have your cell phone? How did she get in touch with you?

Kathy: She must have asked the coordinator of the class. It was after class session where I had talked about the death of Joshua, my grandchild, your nephew. And somebody in the class had said something like, we shouldn’t be talking about personal things.

Kathy: She called me afterwards and said, I’m so glad you said something. And it was meaningful to everybody in the class and don’t pay attention to that other lady.

Nina: Oh, I love this. So this is the same one? It’s the same woman? 

Kathy: That was the first. That was the first contact.

Nina: I like this woman. She’s gutsy [00:16:00] because listen, what she did is the thing that’s hardest to do. It’s much easier to say yes to plans. And I know actually people struggle with that, too. Like the person who gave you the advice that you should say yes to all opportunities. I still would argue, it’s harder to ask for plans. Easier to say yes or no, much harder to extend the invitation, so good for her. Kudos to her. Yeah. We should play her this episode. She’s getting a shout out. Thank you, new friend of my mom’s.

Kathy: Oh she said you should call her. She would like to be on your show.

Nina: Oh, I love it. I think I will because you are not lacking for friends. I want to point out to everyone. My mom has a lot of friends and a lot of dear friends, I would say–wonderful women who I’ve loved my whole life. And so also kudos to you for being open. At 77, right?  I’ve seen you be open in other stages of life too, but you’ve had some of these friends for many decades and it would be very easy to just be like, [00:17:00] okay, I’m good. I’ve got the people in my life. I have kids and grandkids and sons in-law and everything. And I think it’s it’s fantastic that you have continued to meet new people who share your interests. Are you guys taking a class together this semester? 

Kathy: Yeah. We’re taking another philosophy class on is there free will.

I know at the end of these philosophy classes, you never get the answers. You just get questions, but the interaction between the people in the class is what’s interesting.

Nina: Is it back in person or you still zooming?

Kathy: We’re still zooming?

Nina: Is that just going to go on until the end of time actually? 

Kathy: This class you could do either. So sometimes I go and sometimes I just do zoom.

Nina: So this story came out of when I asked if you have other advice and you said to say yes to–

Kathy: Every opportunity, just say yes.

Nina: That’s great. And I think it’s important also for people to note that my mom was always signing up for classes, you know, even while my dad was very sick. Right. And you made it a priority. If I wanted her on the podcast or if I was even coming in town or something, and she’d say, [00:18:00] you know, this day works, this day works, but not this day, I have my class. And I think that’s important to have things to structure your schedule around.

All right, mom, I think we could probably wrap this up unless you have anything to add.

Kathy: I don’t think so.

Nina: Everybody, my mom is part of our Facebook group, Dear Nina: The Group. So I will put this episode up and you can always tell us what you thought and you can generally ask her things.

I started a substack, which is a newsletter where monthly posts are free. The monthly newsletter is free, but there will be subscriber only content– paid subscriber, I should say. That will be the Dear Nina letters that I used to do on my site, but I haven’t done in a long time. And I’m moving those to substack for the new ones. And my mom will sometimes help answer like she always has in the past, except this time it’s going to be for paid subscribers. Mom, maybe I’ll kick a little bit your way. [00:19:00] I’ll take you to lunch. I’ll take you to lunch on our paid subscriptions. I actually think it’s important to have some special content just for subscribers.

So you can find all of that on my website, or if you’re on Substack already with other newsletters, it’s Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship, just like the name of the podcast.

Thank you everybody for listening for joining us and thanks, Mom, for sitting in my tiny little office in a tiny little chair with headphones on and being such a good sport.

Kathy: It was fun.

Nina: All right, until next time. Come back in a couple weeks when our friendships are going well, we are happier all around. Right, Mom?

Kathy: Right.