[00:00:00] Nina: Welcome to another episode of Dear Nina, conversations about friendship.

I love to see a friendship between people who, on the outside seemingly have differences that should lead to disagreements or make it difficult to stay friends, but instead their ability to discuss their different points of view leads to greater understanding and closeness, and an exposure to a point of view They otherwise wouldn’t have.

My guests are the hosts of the Ask a Jew podcast and writers of a newsletter by the same name. Ask a jew doub.com. Their bio for the Ask a Jew podcast is this Yael secular sinner, and Hale Pius hidi. Ask each other the hard questions from Torah to Tinder. What a description. I love that.

I begged them to come on the show and they very graciously said yes. So welcome ya Ellen. Hi

[00:00:55] Yael: Thanks, Nina

[00:00:56] Chaya Leah: us. I didn’t know I was friends with you L till you asked me this to be on here, so

[00:01:01] Yael: We just maintain a friendship for our business really.

[00:01:04] Nina: a great front. You’re, you’re doing a good job. So for my non-Jewish listeners, I wanna explain that Hale and Yael are from two different parts of the Jewish community . , There can be division assumption, a real lack of curiosity about the other which is an issue in life altogether. But even just within our Jewish community, that’s an issue. I’d say, break the mold, and I love that they don’t feel they have to tip tour around each other.

[00:01:28] Yael: There’s no tiptoeing in this relat.

[00:01:31] Nina: . And it’s so refreshing in a world where pure politeness and safe topics seem to reign supreme and friends will really only talk about things they agree on. But before we get to that topic, , can you explain for listeners where you each come from Jewishly and then I’m going to explain , cause I almost don’t talk about it at all on the show where I fit in, which is right in between the two of you I think.

[00:01:52] Yael: , I can start cuz my, I feel like mine’s easier, to explain.

[00:01:56] Chaya Leah: go ye

[00:01:56] Yael: I’m a secular Jew. Even though high I might say there’s no such thing. , but I was born and raised in Israel . People tend to think it’s very religious and some parts of it are, but if you are secular in Israel, it’s very easy to.

go to a synagogue or never really do anything religious, which is what my family did, because you’re kind of like, ah, we’re already there. Right? We’re already speak the language. so I grew up never going to synagogue, never doing anything kind of related to religion, aside from the big holidays.

and I, I live in New York City and just kind of a, a bit of a, a city girl lifestyle, which is I think very different from my co.

[00:02:33] Nina: And what do you do professionally? As long as we’re on you yell.

[00:02:36] Yael: , I am a crisis communications consultant, so I worked, for, , many years in law enforcement doing, uh, social media for the New York City Police Department, and now I, do it, , mostly for the private sector, a little bit for policing too. But, , if you have a crisis that has to do with your public image, , you can call me, which, which is pretty interesting.

, every day is,

[00:02:56] Nina: That’s good to know in case I ever get in the pickle . I’m glad to know that all. Thank you. Okay, and hi Aleah Jewishly and professionally. Tell us about you.

[00:03:06] Chaya Leah: Well, how many hours do we have No ? , so I live in Long Beach, California, and I was born and raised, , into a Ultra-Orthodox family. Even though , that’s not a term that. Most religious people like Ultra-Orthodox, but it’s the easiest way to explain who we and what we are. , I’m a Hasidic Jew. My family is Kabad.

I grew up with parents who are Habad Rabbi and Robertson here in Long Beach. and my grandparents are all Orthodox Jews and long, long line of rabbis and orthodox people. , so I had a very traditional. Religious upbringing. I’m married to a guy who we’ve been married for 21 years. He’s also from a very Orthodox family.

We have four sons. , and I’ve been a Jewish educator most of my life. I taught high school for many years, Jewish history. , and now I’m the director of Hillel at Cal State Long Beach, which is, the Jewish student group on campus. So, That’s a more liberally Jewish, institution generally. So I kind of live in both worlds of like the ultra-Orthodox and more liberal Jewish spaces.

And I don’t mean liberal in, in political way. I mean like Jewishly. So,

[00:04:18] Nina: Does Cal State not have a habad?

[00:04:21] Chaya Leah: , it’s a great question. No, they don’t. , It’s a bit complicated because in Kabad, the model is for a couple to run the Kabad house or the synagogue or , the center you want, whatever you wanna call it. , but in my case, my husband’s in business and he wasn’t really interested in this kind of work.

And so I found a place for myself in the Hillel world where, you know, doesn’t matter what my husband does and \ , I get to do the work that I wanna do. , but, my husband is definitely a partner. In the work, in the sense that every Friday night we have students at our home and all the holidays, and so it’s, it’s a family affair, but you know, it’s not his job.

[00:04:57] Nina: That actually is a brilliant.

[00:04:59] Chaya Leah: Yeah.

[00:05:00] Nina: Right to have a business person as your husband instead of a straight up rabbi. I like it. Respect.

[00:05:06] Chaya Leah: yes, we’re both the children of rabbis and , my husband, really wanted to be successful

and be able to pay the bills

[00:05:13] Nina: Oh, it’s hard. Yeah, so I’ll explain for listeners for the first time, where I fit in. I mean, the fact that I’m Jewish is never a secret. But not with like my background, cuz not relevant, but I. It could be a little relevant here.

A long time ago , I wrote an article explaining that I called myself reform. And that’s not a thing for, for people who, , are out there. That is not a real term. No one uses, uh, people usually divide themselves in the Jewish community if they’re affiliated.

Okay? So non-affiliated meeting, they don’t really identify much with it is its own thing, and. because you ELs Israeli, that’s like its own thing. And then in America we might, people grew up, you know, reform, conservative, Orthodox, and then within Orthodox I get probably more than most people who grew up, like I did, I grew up reform, that there’s a lot of variation within which I didn’t really know.

I grew up in Highland Park in suburb outside of Chicago. I don’t think I met a single Orthodox person until late in college.

[00:06:10] Chaya Leah: Mm.

[00:06:11] Nina: , I grew up in a house where for sure Judaism was important. I mean, we did all the holidays. I went to 13 years of Hebrew school and all that, but I didn’t go to Jewish camp.

I went to a camp where almost everyone was Jewish, but there was no Judaism. So I got to college, I went to Washoe in St. Louis, it’s kind of a, at least in the mid nineties to late nineties, that campus at the time, I don’t know now, definitely attracted a lot of like day school kids, camp Ramma kind of kids, us y So these are.

A little more observant than how I grew up, . And I would go with my friends to Shabbat dinners and stuff cuz that’s what people were doing. And people would do the prayer after eating . And I didn’t know the words. And I’m like, how did I get through 13 years of Hebrew school?

And I don’t know, basic literacy. I had bat mitzvah and I was kind of bitter about it. That was a lot of years to stick me in twice a week, and, I don’t know, beer cut, , I was angry about it over time I learned more.

. I just got into it. I got really into it and I spent my junior year in Santiago, Chile and I was living with a Catholic family with a crucifix right above me, and they were so interested in Judaism. They were religious people, and they wanted to know a lot about Judaism and I didn’t really have the answers. And so my mom sent me Joseph t Lusk’s, Jewish Literacy. It’s just like a page on each thing, you know? Why do you keep kosher? Why do you do this? And I would have to kind of translate it into Spanish. My host and I learned a lot. It’s not like I got the prayer skills. , but I got a lot of background and history and then I’d worked for Hillel for one year after college, by the way,

I know I’m telling so much of my story. I’ll get to the point, but.

[00:07:44] Chaya Leah: No, it’s great.

[00:07:45] Nina: My boyfriend at the time who became my husband . He grew up a conservative Jew and a really learned one, and he has a wonderful voice. He knew all the prayers. , He made me a tape, like an actual tape. I think this is like pre mp3. He did, kiddish, which is the prayer over the wine, like the long one.

He did the full beer. All the prayers that I wanted to be able to, to participate. He did the entire Friday night and I learned it the same way. Learned my butt mitzvah via. Tape via tape.

[00:08:11] Chaya Leah: so nice. I love that.

[00:08:13] Nina: but over time when we moved to Minneapolis, and I’ve also been married about 22 years.

I also have four kids. , We built our life here and over time I call us hyper affiliated. So there’s unaffiliated Jews. We’re hyper affiliated

[00:08:24] Yael: Over affiliated.

[00:08:25] Nina: So we belong to the conservative synagogue where he grew up. , and we are most involved in habad, in Minnetonka, Minnesota with the gross bombs and the Silverstein.

And then we’re also involved in more centrist orthodox synagogue. But I don’t, you know, That’s why I call myself reform. Now that makes more sense, right?

[00:08:42] Chaya Leah: totally makes

love that. That’s great. That’s

I have a cousin who’s a hoba. I mean, I have to play Jewish geography right now, but I have a cousin who’s a habad, in Minneapolis, St. Paul,

[00:08:52] Nina: Oh, vend it. Oh, sure. . Yeah. We’re Facebook friends. Yeah. Yep, I know

them. Oh my gosh. Okay. You’ll have to tell her you were on

the show. I

[00:08:59] Yael: has a lot of

[00:09:00] Chaya Leah: I

do.

[00:09:02] Nina: That’s true.

[00:09:02] Yael: Half our listener listenership, I think are

[00:09:05] Nina: That’s helpful. They could, they should subscribe to your subs. Okay. So back to the main topic , like I said, I, I do love the banter, an occasional disagreement between the two of you. And I don’t know what it’s like privately or if that’s just a thing for the show. And of course you agree a lot too. I know you agree on plenty of things, but I’m curious if you agree with my statement that these days friends seem to keep things polite.

[00:09:30] Chaya Leah: Absolutely.

[00:09:31] Yael: Not just friends. I think everyone, like every relationship, , , , it’s just, ah, , why touch anything? That’s can be a little controversial and sometimes that’s the things that . Bring people more together or help us learn and grow.

So it’s everybody’s keeping it pretty, pretty. Parv if I, uh, may use a term from

[00:09:49] Chaya Leah: Yeah, absolutely. I feel like I’ve been able to define who my real friends are now by the people who I can just be open and speak my mind, if I have to edit what I’m gonna say, I feel like that’s not a friendship that I can keep up with anymore because it’s too hard and exhausting and too complicated.

[00:10:07] Yael: It’s hard to keep track of who you can say what

[00:10:09] Chaya Leah: Yeah. And I just, I need to be able to be myself. I mean, that’s what friendship, to me, that’s what friends are for, is, is an opportunity to unload or to share and to cry and laugh together. And if I can’t be 100% of who I am, and I mean, I don’t think we’re all, any, we’re never a hundred percent of who we are, but at least 99%

then it’s like an acquaintance,

[00:10:31] Nina: When people talk about an echo chamber, this is what they mean because I guess we use that term a lot to mean online the algorithm makes it so that if you like certain kinds of things, then you’re only gonna keep seeing those things and, and then that’s the echo chamber.

But it happens offline too, where we surround ourselves with people exactly like us. And I don’t just mean politically, but yes, also politically and in all ways, you’re only gonna hear. Point of view,

[00:10:56] Yael: it’s very self-selecting too, right? No, nobody’s doing this to us. , we’re choosing to , stay within our, within our groups.

[00:11:03] Chaya Leah: . , I know for myself, definitely growing up in the way that I did in a very tight-knit Orthodox community, I didn’t have lots of opportunities to be friends with people who weren’t like me. , it took time. I mean, it took time becoming an adult, having kids and, you know, friendship changes over years.

When my kids were little, , most of my friends were people that had kids my kids’ age and that we, you know, went to Mommy and me together. And, now that my kids are grown, I had to find new friends. It’s constantly evolving , I feel like my path, my friendship path has evolved along with my.

evolution, right. As a person. I really appreciate that. I’ve been able to find real friends along the way. I mean, someone like Yael, who , I didn’t know, , I just met Yael during Covid, and I mean, she’s one of my best friends. we tell each other everything. We’re, we’re literally soulmates in a way, you know?

[00:11:54] Yael: And the first time I met her in person, I invited myself over to stay at her place

for Shabbat.

[00:12:01] Nina: Did you go to see her or were you going to California for

[00:12:04] Yael: Uh, no, I was going to California for another reason, but I was going to have Shabbat at her place. People who know me, I guess they know my, my personality, but it’s not something I do, like, I don’t feel comfortable. I don’t stay at other people’s houses and invite myself , but I just felt so comfortable with her.

, , it seemed very obvious to me that that’s an okay thing to ask. And she said no. And it was weird. But, uh,

no

[00:12:26] Nina: thanks

[00:12:27] Yael: no, no. Obviously we had a great Shabbat

[00:12:30] Nina: I’m sure it was fun for your husband, Hialeah and kids to meet this mysterious imaginary friend that you have.

[00:12:38] Yael: And I’m the normal one. You know how many she brings all these internet friends over? Some of us are mutual friends. , let me tell you, there’s, there’s a cast of character that characters that come, come through that house for Shabbat.

[00:12:49] Nina: And you guys really do lead very different lives. You live in different corners of the country and beyond Jewishly. , yeah. You are not married with kids. Correct. , and Halay has got these four sons , but Jewishly too. that brings me to something I really hope we can help people with, cuz I really do like each episode to be something that people can take away.

I end every episode by saying when our friendships are going well, we’re happier all around. And I really think that’s true. I mean, think about when you’re having strife with a friend, it just nas at us

[00:13:19] Chaya Leah: Uh, totally.

[00:13:20] Yael: Do you ever do that thing where you have a whole argument with your friend in your head?

[00:13:24] Chaya Leah: Yeah.

[00:13:24] Nina: yes, of course. Yes. I’ve been writing about friendship since 2014 and I haven’t run out of material.

I mean, people, it’s, it’s a really rich topic this topic is one I’ve been kind of afraid to touch because even bringing up the fact that there are people who are coming from different points of view, . Makes me anxious to even say the words, even though I get tons of letters about it.

A lot of them are anonymous, so I can’t write the people back. But people will write me and say, you know, I suspect my friend voted for whichever person. It could be either side. I think my friend voted for this one. I, I don’t know if we can be friends anymore. I think my friend voted for that one. I don’t know if we can be friends anymore and I wish I could write them back and say, you are missing out on an opportunity.

Back to the echo chamber to hear a. Point of view, how are you able to disagree about things in a way that isn’t condescending, that doesn’t turn the other person off, and either if it’s with each other or other friends, you have

[00:14:17] Chaya Leah: I’ll start and then Yeah. El could interrupt me as usual. Um, , I’m just kidding. I just feel that when it comes to being friends with someone, you accept the person, the whole person exactly as they are. , you’re not in a contract, you’re not married to each other. If this is not something that works for you and you don’t feel good about fine, Move on.

But I love my friends. I love them so much that even though I disagree fundamentally on many things with them, , it doesn’t matter because the love I have for them is so deep that , the attachment is far greater than the disagreement. I mean, Okay. Maybe if they were a Nazi and they were coming to kill me, fine.

I would say, I don’t like you anymore,

[00:14:58] Yael: We can’t hang out anymore.

[00:14:59] Chaya Leah: right. , but I so appreciate my friends, even the ones that challenge me, ? , yeah. Is one example. But , my best, best friend in the world is, polar opposite to me. we’ve always had disagreements, but then covid happened and all the stuff that went on and we had more disagreements.

and yet we never, ever, ever stop loving each other. And that I think was the basis of it. Sometimes I would say, you know what? We should stop talking about this right now and . We’ll discuss it next week and let’s talk about Tom Brady or the Kardashians or whatever.

You know, you change subjects, but my. Commitment. To that relationship supersedes anything that is gonna upset me to break up with the friend. , I never wanna do that, ever. And I wouldn’t want friends to do that to me because I like being different.

I wanna tell you what I think and I hope. , , my friends give me the same respect where it’s like, we know that you’re a good person and we love you even if we don’t agree with you. , I think there has to be that, commitment to the relationship and then, okay, so we don’t agree.

So big deal,

[00:16:00] Nina: It used to be more possible, right? What you’re saying is kind of how we lived our lives for most of the three of us, for most of our lives, and . I love what you said and how you worded it. And I also, backing up for a second, love that you said ye is like a soulmate. I think that is true in Friendship

[00:16:16] Yael: I’m glad it’s on tape.

[00:16:17] Nina: yes. It’s here now in case you ever get in a fight,

[00:16:20] Chaya Leah: I wanna just add one thing and then I’ll let you all say something. I think one of the problems that people have in general, and especially when it comes to friendship, is that we are scared of being uncomfortable. And I think it’s okay to say, you know what, I’m not always a hundred percent uncomfortable sometimes in a conversation.

I am uncomfortable, right? I sometimes yell at yell, you need to get married, you need to fire, you need to have babies. What are you doing wasting your. You think she’s comfortable every second when I’m telling her that. Obviously not. , she loves me. She laughs, she knows that I’m saying it cuz I care for her and that I only want the best for her.

, that’s how it works. And when I’m arguing with someone about politics or about religion or whatever, yeah, sometimes it’s uncomfortable, but So what, so you move

[00:16:59] Yael: be. Yeah. And, there needs to be a foundation of trust, you need to know this person’s coming from a good place and maybe they’re pissing me off and maybe what they’re saying, whatever political disagreement we have is, is something that I find really troublesome, but I know. that this person cares for me. I know this person is out to hurt me. , I think it’s very easy. I, I guess this is a separate point. You know, we want everything in our life to be perfect. So if we look at a friendship or relationship and this, , part of it doesn’t work, we’re like, okay, well I’m just gonna move on to the next one, and you know, you have to , pick your battles and choose what’s important for you.

And I think unfortunately, a lot of times people break up, friendships over things that aren’t really that important.

[00:17:44] Chaya Leah: true.

[00:17:45] Nina: No, it’s, it’s true. I think so many important points you guys have brought up. Friendships don’t need to be perfect. It is okay to be uncomfortable.

[00:17:52] Yael: And, wait, can I say something very controversial now, now that I think about it? I don’t think I’ve ever said this before. I think it’s also Okay. to vent about your friends sometimes if there’s something that one friend does that drives you crazy. It’s okay to kind of let that out.

maybe the three of you are best friends. Maybe that’s a bad idea, but you know, to tell your like partner or to tell another friend, like, ugh, high a and with her religion,

[00:18:19] Nina: With her

[00:18:20] Yael: long as you don’t , get too, too caught up in that. But, but it’s okay to acknowledge that.

Like, I don’t like. this part of this friendship, , but you understand that there’s something bigger here than this thing that annoys you.

[00:18:33] Nina: Well, we stay in these friendships for the bigger picture, right? We’re not looking for. Partners, romantic partners. That’s the thing about friendship is like you brought up earlier, Alaya, it’s true. We do get to choose , it’s a choice we make to stay in it. And , if you’re going to choose to stay in it, you do have to stay in it for all the reasons.

And yeah, like y’all said, you can release your aggravation about certain things, to some other trusted person.

[00:18:57] Yael: what do you think about people who like, I’m sorry, I’m like taking over the

[00:19:00] Nina: No, please. I know we’re all hosts

here, so that’s hard. Three Jews ask three Jews.

[00:19:05] Yael: What do you think about people that break up a friendship?

I’ve always thought that was kind of weird, why don’t you just like stop talking to me like a normal person

[00:19:11] Nina: that’s what most people do. Do. Yeah. That is what most people do. Most people do drift away. That’s the number one way a friendship ends is, you know, you send a text, normally you would get a text back right away, but now it’s three days, then it’s five days, and you’re like, oh, is that personal?

I normally tell people not to take things too personally, but sometimes that is on purpose. Sometimes you’re not imagining things believe it or not, there are people who prefer, to be broken up with directly, but there are also people who prefer to

[00:19:39] Chaya Leah: Interesting. That’s interesting.

[00:19:41] Nina: because by the way, Jessica, somebody has an opinion about your friendship or about you, and it doesn’t mean they’re right. That’s just their opinion. So maybe the friendship isn’t working for that person anymore,

[00:19:51] Yael: and sometimes, like you said, people just drift apart and it’s not, anything. It’s not like they dislike each other, but

[00:19:57] Nina: and also people are going through so much stuff in their lives, right? People are in recovery, they’re going through a divorce, right? There’s all kinds of issues people have where they cannot fit. Friendship in.

[00:20:06] Yael: I’m, I’m asking you here on this podcast, if you ever need a break for me, please, don. Sit me down and be like, I need a break. Just stop answering me. Which by the way, you don’t answer a lot of my texts, so maybe you are you, maybe we are on a

[00:20:18] Chaya Leah: we are on a

break. you didn’t even know I, I’ll say one thing about, , relationships in general, and it, and I, I mean this about friendships and also romantic relationships. I think that the expectations have to be lowered across all parties.

there’s this kind of Hollywood. Expectation we have that our friends are gonna be everything to us and you’re gonna be able to tell them everything and be able to talk whatever. And as your romantic partner, I always joke about this, like, you’re my best friend.

You’re my lover, you’re my nana. And , nobody can be everything to everyone at all times. , it’s okay to have different people for different needs

and so I think it’s okay to have different friends for different purposes, you know, and I, and there’s certain things that Yael and I, which, and I, I talk to all about everything, but you know, I’m dealing with my kids getting into summer camps, right? Am I gonna talk her head off for four hours about , the injustice and , dysfunction of habad boys camps and how so many kids are not getting it?

No, because it’s irrelevant to her life. So I have other friends for that, right? I have other friends that wanna talk about that and are in living in that. And it’s okay. So it’s, it doesn’t mean that I’m hiding from her. It doesn’t mean I’m, , shameful of what I’m talking about. It’s irrelevant to our friendship.

And so sometimes you have to think about what makes sense to talk to with each friend or what makes sense to share or burden or, argue or disagree. I mean, if, if you have a friend who hates politics, don’t talk about politics with

[00:21:39] Yael: Mm-hmm. .Yeah.

Yeah. And it, and it’s o I think it’s okay if, if you can, if you’re that kind of person, also have superficial friendships. And I have a lot, and I don’t mean that in a bad way. Like, I mean, I have friends who. I go for runs with, for example. Or I’ll hit them up if I’m gonna see standup comedy, cuz I know they like standup comedy.

I help these friends in need, it’s not like I don’t care for them, but I, I don’t talk to them about my, my deepest, darkest secrets. And I don’t necessarily invite them wherever I go, but I, I wanna, , be with them in certain times of my.

[00:22:12] Chaya Leah: Yeah.

[00:22:12] Nina: I think that is a reality. it would be in an ideal world that we could show up as our full selves in every situation. earlier, Kai, you were saying that you wouldn’t, but. Think maybe that’s for our best friends. Like you wouldn’t consider someone a best friend, one of your closest friends if you couldn’t be your full self.

But there is a place for these more casual friendships, which superficial is such a negative word,

[00:22:33] Yael: casual. Yours is better.

[00:22:34] Nina: Yeah. Casual, more positive. And then we, we need those people in our life.

[00:22:37] Chaya Leah: Mm-hmm. .

[00:22:38] Yael: Yeah. , I’m sure I’m, I’m a superficial or slash casual friend for a lot of people. And that’s, and that’s totally fine,

[00:22:44] Nina: , with college kids, you’re working with Jae. Are you seeing this, same issue play out where everyone’s hanging out with people exactly like them?

[00:22:52] Chaya Leah: Absolutely. Yes. , it’s a big issue. And I mean, the friendship issue on college campuses is even deeper than that. , many of them, , don’t even know how to have friendships. They don’t know how, what it means to be a friend. And part of what I try to do is teach my students what it means to be a friend.

you know, it means dropping what you’re doing sometimes and showing up. It means putting your own needs aside, , for your friends. I mean, we’re in such a time where everything is about what I need right now, my self-care, my, but if real friend, you drop what you need if someone needs you , and I think that kind of sacrifice or commitment is difficult for young people to wrap their head around.

I, I mean, it’s hard for people our age too, let’s be honest. I know that there are people that. Could not count on , I hate to say it like that, , that are just not the type of people that, you know, would cancel their own massage because I needed, you know, an hour of coffee with them to talk through things , but that’s, those are how you figure out who your real friends are, cuz a real friend will do that.

[00:23:52] Nina: . Do you know Ruhi Covell? who, who she is.

So she’s ortho actually, she was also on my show, but, and if you’re telling me not all Orthodox people know each other, I’m gonna be really disappointed.

[00:24:01] Yael: do though

[00:24:02] Nina: But she’s not Kaba. . She’s, , in Cleveland and she does a lot of speaking on those momentum tours in

Israel. And we’re buddies.

We’ve known each other for years. I’ve, I’ve a lot of Orthodox fans. For a non-Orthodox girl, I call myself from friendly or

from adjacent . I’m from adjacent.

[00:24:17] Yael: HIAs, my first, well my second orthodox friend, but the other one is a, is a man, so we’re not.

[00:24:22] Nina: Oh, that’s interesting. Yeah. Not so close. Probably. That is close. It’s been over the years, but anyway, , Roki, I recent, I brought her up. She brought up on an episode she was on, and I thought it was such a good point about boundaries. And this is what you’re talking about with the college kids.

It’s like internet culture now. All the, all the memes on Instagram and TikTok and stuff, everything is about boundaries, boundaries, bound put, have boundaries, you’ll protect your boundaries. And her point was, sometimes you actually have to help people. Sometimes you can’t just be about protecting your boundaries, your space.

Sometimes you have to put yourself out

for another person.

[00:24:56] Yael: If you’re like, I don’t wanna be friends with this person cuz I don’t wanna deal with their drama or whatever, which, you know, could be fine. But also their drama could be their needing help from you right now.

[00:25:07] Chaya Leah: Yeah. Well, one of the things that I see a lot is that people don’t realize that you have to make an effort in a friendship as well. A lot of people sit back and say, I have no friends. Nobody’s calling me. Nobody’s inviting me anywhere. I’m never invited to Shabbat dinner. I’m never invited.

And I say, , you have a table, you have chairs, you invite people over, start it, you know, you jump right in and , take a chance, make the first call. And people are scared to do that. I hate to be gendered about this, , I feel like women are more like this than men, but it’s like, I don’t know, she’s above me or below.

, I don’t know if I, if that it would be appropriate for me to invite her out for coffee or her out, you know, for a Shabbat meal. And I. Who cares what it, is it the Queen of England? Who exactly are you calling? I mean, it’s a regular person. Just say if I, when I see someone that I wanna be friends with, I literally just go for it, you know?

I DM or message or

call

[00:25:58] Yael: a personality thing too, right? Like you and I are both similar in that sense. We’re we like people and you know, we’re just like, oh, you know, let’s, let’s meet, let’s hang out. But eh, some people are more shy

[00:26:09] Chaya Leah: Okay. So they have to learn from us

 

[00:26:11] Nina:

I push people a lot in this direction too. When I first moved to Minneapolis, you know, 22 years ago, I was rejected a lot at first, and then I would like sit around and feel sorry for myself and not invite people to stuff that I definitely learned over time, and I say it a lot, if you make plans, you have plans,

[00:26:27] Chaya Leah: Yeah,

[00:26:28] Nina: you have to do it and you have to take rejection.

It is not easy, but like they don’t know you that well. If somebody says no on the early end of you inviting them to do something. They don’t know you that well. I once I’ve, I’ve told this on the podcast before, but for anyone new, they can cring. For the first time and other people can cringe for the second time.

I remember 20 some years ago asking someone for plans and throwing out all these dates, well how about this date? No, that doesn’t work. How about this for brunch? No, that doesn’t. I think I might have in one conversation offered like five different dates and then she had to say, I almost feel sorry for her now cuz it was probably so awkward.

She had to say, I don’t think anything’s gonna

work like this summer or something. Now I would’ve gotten that four minutes earlier,

but. But that’s hard.

And, and in fairness to her, I have definitely been on the side in now 20 some years of also kind of just not wanting to get a friendship started.

And there are times in life when you just don’t have it in you. It might not even be personal to the person. You just don’t have the bandwidth. And she kind of did me a favor in the end.

[00:27:29] Chaya Leah: Right.

[00:27:30] Yael: , I’m saying this cause I recognize making friends is not, , natural for a lot of people, but make friends on the internet. Lan and I met on the internet. We have so many good friends that met online. , we have , , a couple that got married and they met, not on a dating app, online through like different communities that you’re involved with.

We, happen to. Through, , a podcast that we’re both listening to,

[00:27:50] Nina: now ladies, we have deviated very far from our top and gone and gone into all

kinds of friendship topics. My final question for you, you guys will laugh.

, well, I won’t say it quite yet. I will say that I have found such a wonderful part of my life being. With people who are much more religious than I am. I learn so much from them and I think they learn from me . I feel that it’s not a mentor-mentee relationship. , these are real friendships and we get a lot from friendships with each other.

And I, I know you two do as well. I wish there were more friendships between Orthodox and Nonorthodox women. Cause I feel like then, then we’d, there’d be like more hope for Jewish unity. My final question for you , is there hope for the Jewish people? Is there

hope for us?

[00:28:30] Chaya Leah: I could just say that, I mean, I’ll might get some hate mail for this, but I think on the side of the Orthodox women, if you could put aside . your desire to make your friends more religious. , forget about that. , you have to drop that. , that cannot be part of a friendship.

A friendship has to be that you really care about the person the way they are. You’re not trying to influence them. You’re not trying to teach them. , like you said, , it’s not a mentor mentee situation. . I absolutely think , we could learn so much from each other and we could be best friends and it’s not a problem, you know, it’s, but you have to stop thinking of the relationship as I’m going to change this person.

[00:29:05] Yael: Is that how you thought of this relationship at the.

[00:29:08] Chaya Leah: never.

[00:29:10] Yael: I’m that curious.

[00:29:12] Nina: But I think the non-Orthodox person also has to be careful to not think like you’re coming in there to, , save a person like from, , patriarchy and, right. I mean, that’s a whole thing,

right? Like for judgment. When I was referring in my intro, , at least in terms of our two communities, connecting, and I was talking about judgment.

I really meant more from the non-orthodox side. Judging

[00:29:36] Yael: yeah.

[00:29:36] Nina: orthodox side,

[00:29:37] Chaya Leah: oh.

[00:29:37] Yael: Yeah.

no, I definitely, I mean, you, you think they’re weird. You look at them and , Kai and I talk about this all the time, but you know, you’re walking in Brooklyn or wherever, religious area, and you’re like, these people are weird because they’re not like me. , they’re dressed differently but then you discover things that you, you do have in common.

Maybe you like the same books or you have even the same sense of. . but it’s very easy , for secular people and especially being Israeli. , we do tend to look down , on religious Jews, and we haven’t even talked about what’s going on in Israel right now, which is among other things, a very big divide between, , secular and religious, , Jews, really to a point that that feels like just there’s a lot of hatred on both sides.

So, you know, yeah, maybe there are fundamental disagreements, but they’re not the kind of disagreements that should affect your day to. Interaction with this person?

[00:30:26] Chaya Leah: Exactly.

[00:30:27] Yael: Yeah. I mean, who’s somebody voted for? , , it shouldn’t affect the friendship. Maybe, uh, I wouldn’t marry this person if we have different fundamental beliefs, but there’s so much more to that.

[00:30:37] Chaya Leah: Yeah.

[00:30:38] Nina: That’s a really good point. Kind of back to this idea. First of all, you can have more than one friend , right? You like, we don’t need every friend to be everything. Just to wrap up all the things we’ve talked about, it’s good to have different friends for different things with your closest, closest friends.

It would be, I think, important to be able to show up as your full self and not feel like you’re gonna be condescended to, and it’s okay to. Just, you don’t wanna be yelled at and, , made to feel like, , you’re dumb for having that point of view, Any last things you two wanna say before we say good cha and Shabbat? Shalom to Yael,

[00:31:10] Yael: I guess , my parting words would be I think, if you have a, a close friend, like, you know, I have and , we both have other friends.

We’re consider ourselves very, very lucky. If you don’t have that, that’s okay too. Start small. , some of my closest friends or people I’ve only met in recent years, I think sometimes people look at other people’s relationships and say why don’t I have that?

And, and it’s not easy. You know, I’ve, I’ve lived so many different places. I’ve been in a lot of different situations, so I’m lucky to have met a lot of people, but not everybody Ha has exposed to, to so many people, so. . , if you just have somebody that you like and you enjoy talking to and you send them a funny meme or you know, you can send them, send them an email , that’s a friendship too, and you can build from that.

[00:31:52] Nina: That’s a great place to end. Give people a lot of hope and maybe hope for the Jewish people.

So we couldn’t always solve that, but we, we try. Yeah. Alan Hile. you’re very gracious to come on my show and, talk about my favorite topic.

So

[00:32:07] Chaya Leah: Thank you, Thank you.

for having us.

[00:32:09] Nina: And as I told you, I end every episode by saying come back when our friendships are going well, we are happier all around.

Bye.