[00:00:00] Nina: Welcome to Dear Nina, conversations about friendship. I’m Nina Batson, your host. I’m a writer and a friendship enthusiast. Today I have my mom again. She is a superstar of Dear Nina, the podcast. She’s been on episodes number one, number eight. We did one about being a widow and now we are doing one. a variety of questions.

I’ll call this like I do sometimes with my best friend, Terran, a rapid fire session because my mom is part of Dear Nina, the group. It’s a Facebook group and I’ve received questions for her from different group members and we’re just gonna go through them one by one, mom, because you have a lot of wisdom.

My mom was. A big part of the written version of Dear Nina, which there are lots of questions on my website, nina baden.com, and going forward, those questions will exist as part of my sub, which you can find at Dear Nina, conversations about friendship on sub. All right, mom, you ready for the first question?

I’m ready. I’m gonna say them the way they’re written. So it’s gonna say she and your mom and things like that, cuz they are from our Facebook. Members. All right, here we go. What friendship issues does your mom have at her stage of life? What issues have either dissipated or are one she has decided to let go of?

That’s a great question.

[00:01:21] Kathy: It is a great question. I’ve sort of divided my life into two, two phases. One before your father got sick, which I was 54 at the time, he was 58, he had Parkinson’s disease, and after your father got sick, before your father got sick, I let all kinds of little things irritate me.

After your father got. and we won’t go into that. But the things I had to deal with, other things like friends idiosyncrasies. Just weren’t that important. And I guess my advice to your letter writer would be to maintain a friendship. There’s a lot that you overlook. If it’s a really close friendship. It’s not unlike a marriage.

There’s things that you just let go and you value the parts of the friendship that are important to you and just let the rest go.

[00:02:11] Nina: You also often say something to me over the years about the difference between when you were upset about something, a person. Versus who the person is. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Right.

[00:02:22] Kathy: Once I had a falling out with one friend over the years, and I realized it wasn’t anything specific that she had done, it was who the person was, the basic personality. And when I realized that wasn’t working for me, I re, I couldn’t be fixed. If a person has done a thing that they can apologize for, you can usually move.

but that’s, that’s what I said. But if it’s the basic personality, then it’s probably not a good

[00:02:51] Nina: friendship. Yeah. And I like your point that if you’ve decided to be in a friendship with a person, you cannot. Nitpick and be upset about every tiny little thing actually in some ways different than a marriage.

Well, I agree. It’s the same in the marriage in that way, and yet in a friendship you have many friends. So you don’t need this friend to always be perfect or always do things the way you would do them. Cuz okay, that’s just one friend. You have other friends and you don’t live with this person and Right.

I think we could give each other all a little more grace, like it is okay to mess up sometimes. I’ve done whole episodes about that, like if you want. To be able to mess up sometimes and be forgiven for it. You have to allow others to sometimes mess up. Obviously not huge, enormous things like we’re saying, but like these little things, you know, we don’t always all say the right thing, the right way and the right tone at the right time.

And it would be nice if we all were a little easier on each. , even if we don’t have a sick husband or a crisis like before the crisis. Another question is, are her friendship issues the same as those we face in our age? And this is somebody who knows I’m in my forties and I know she’s in her forties. She was actually a guest on the show once as well, which was awesome.

Alyssa, thank you for asking that. Are your friendship issues the same you think that we face now?

[00:04:06] Kathy: They’re probably a little different because we don’t have teenage children. And having to deal with their issues. I think it’s a little different. I can’t tell you exactly how, but it’s, it’s people have mellowed.

A lot of people my age are sick or a spouse or, yeah,

[00:04:23] Nina: yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Kind of related to you sort of answered that in the previous question. Another question is, as a lot of people who listen to the show, have kids leaving for college or maybe are leaving in the next year or two, how do you handle being.

Or how did you handle, do you remember how you handled being separate from your kid’s social life all of a sudden, like you didn’t really know who their friends were, you weren’t so connected. I

[00:04:49] Kathy: think part of being a mature person is separating from your parents, and parents don’t need to know. . Every person their child is friends with, they don’t know, need to know every detail of the child’s life.

There’s some famous saying something about giving your children feet and then wings or something like that. It’s, I think it’s a good time to start letting go.

[00:05:13] Nina: That’s good. Good advice. And we probably parents these days, are way more connected to our kids. Visually we can see who their friends are because of social media.

I mean, you guys really, you and your generation, you really did have to let go more and sooner I think so I’m connected with my kids, your grandkids, the couple of them who have social media. Not that they post everything and I’m not friends with them on the. . You probably never heard. Have you heard of Snapchat?

I’ve heard of it, but Oh, you have good mom. Anyway, I’m not on it, but the kids are, and that’s where they put most of their stuff anyway, so it is a little harder to get those boundaries right. I think in our generation, because we have so many ways to access our kids, which is maybe not for the best.

Somebody asked, I would love to hear what your mom thinks about how friendship in general and her friendships in particular have changed over the years. I

[00:06:06] Kathy: think we sort of dealt with that yeah, before, but I think people have mellowed more tolerant, maybe more. I think everyone is more tolerant and I find at my age, I make a date with somebody knowing that it may well be canceled because of sickness or some other thing that comes up.

So I just go with the flow and try not to take it personally. I think more tolerant. It’s the best description.

[00:06:34] Nina: I would repeat what I said before too, is it’d be so nice if we could all get there sooner. Yes, we probably would. Life would be easier. And with family members too. Somebody asked a question, I thought was a great question and I suspected I knew the answer and I answered it myself, but I thought we should still see what my mom says.

And also on the Facebook page, the question was mothers and daughters as friends, what are their parameters? And I said something along the lines. She’s going to say parents and kids aren’t friends and she didn’t even consider my dad her friend either, but I could be wrong. That’s what I wrote. What do you say?

[00:07:07] Kathy: Uh, I do not think parents and children are friends. Parents need to be parents. It doesn’t mean that you need to be. Intrusive. You need to be respectful. You need to respect boundaries both ways. Well, what about like

[00:07:20] Nina: older kids like me? I think we’re very close in our own way and I, I love being together and talking and everything, but I, you’re my mom.

You’re not my friend. It’s different. And maybe that’s cuz you raised me that

[00:07:30] Kathy: way. ? I think so. And I, I think we’re close too, but I don’t think I make, I try not to make comments on every little thing. I dunno how to describe it, except having had an intrusive mother. I’m, well

[00:07:43] Nina: talk about that a little if you’re comfortable.

Maybe that is, well,

[00:07:45] Kathy: one thing I didn’t address, you said, I didn’t consider dad. Oh yeah. A, a friend, but I did consider him a friend, so Oh, okay. Why? We’ve talked about this before. I would discuss anything with him that had to do with us, our marriage. What I didn’t discuss with him was stuff that had to do with my friends, because I didn’t think that was his business.

[00:08:05] Nina: Yes, yes, I have. We’ve written about that together, I think. Yeah. And you know, I do that too, and I have said in writing, Brian actually doesn’t want to know things. Like he doesn’t ask me stuff about friends. Cause I think he would be concerned about saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. And it’s just easier if he doesn’t know.

If he doesn’t know, he doesn’t, he won’t. Misspeak. I feel the same way. Actually. I’d rather he not tell me something I shouldn’t know because I can’t be bothered to remember what I’m supposed to know and what I’m not supposed to know. Right. It’s just better not to know. Right. I think, uh, yeah. If you don’t wanna mess up on the privacy thing, on the gossip thing, it’s, it’s almost better if you just don’t have the information in the first place.

[00:08:45] Kathy: There was another part of your question. I already forgot

[00:08:47] Nina: what that. Well, we were talking about whether parents and kids could be friends, and what would the boundaries be? Oh, we, okay. No, we were, you were gonna say that your mom was very intrusive. Grandma Susie.

[00:08:58] Kathy: Um, she made comments on all sorts of things that I resented and I remember somebody, not my mother.

I was in some group and a woman said My daughter bought a sweater for X amount of dollars. And I told her that that was a terrible thing to do and what, where were her values? And I said to this woman who I didn’t know all my mother would’ve had to do was tell, say that to me once and never again. What I have told her that I purchased anything.

So I’m very sensitive to that sort of thing. There are things you don’t need to say to your children.

[00:09:34] Nina: Are you thinking more? in that scenario. Is it a, a young, like a younger child, an adult child? This was a married child. This was a married child. Child. Oh, okay. Got it. Because I was like gonna say if Rebecca or Alyssa or Sam, no.

Nathan, like, wasted a ton of money on something nonsensical. I’m probably gonna tell them I’m

[00:09:49] Kathy: talking about a mother who’s not supporting her child anymore. Okay. Yeah. All right. I, I, to me that’s crossing a boundary.

[00:09:57] Nina: You know, it’s funny, you taught me something about money a long time ago, which you might not even remember.

And I try to pass it on to my own kids, which. I used to wanna spend a lot of money on video games, like floppy discs like we had, I had an Apple two C or Apple two E or something and I loved games and I would use my allowance on games. And you said, you know, one day, and I was probably in fifth grade and you said, you know, in a couple of years, You’re probably gonna want makeup or something else.

You’re gonna be into clothes, you’re gonna be into something else. So spend some of your money on video games, but you might wanna save your money for when you’re into something else. And I, that really stuck with me, cuz sure enough, then I wanted some makeup and, and even then you were like, spend some money on makeup, but don’t forget at some point you’re gonna have your license and you’re gonna want to go out more and you’re, I mean, there was just this idea that you should use money on some fun stuff, but you should also have awareness that you may only be into this.

Like right now and don’t spend all your money on it. I really tell my kids the same thing. Do you remember saying that? No. , does it sound like you? It sounds like me. Yeah, it’s true. It really is. I try to tell your grandson, Nathan, like, don’t spend all your money on Candy , because that’s what he’s said to, or, you know, or video games, which are much more expensive these days, but how many can you even play at once?

You just can’t. All right, ma’am, there is another question, and the question is, what do you do? Moms are mad at you for something your kid did. So this is actually kind of connected to this issue of boundaries that we were talking about even earlier with college kids and making their own friends. This really precedes that.

You were talking then about letting go and, and realizing it’s the kids’ jobs to, to leave and to make their own life. But before that, while they’re still in your home and you know that there. ways your kid is acting, that could be better. And maybe there are people who have let you know that I know it’s important that they make mistakes.

And how do you let go of knowing that people may be judging you or thinking you’re not a good parent? And also how involved do you think is appropriate to get, how involved are you supposed to get when your teenage kids. , and you can even think about younger kids too, but you know, teenage on down. How involved do you think you should be as a parent in your kids’ social issues?

[00:12:15] Kathy: Well, I just remember one incident when you’re now 54 year old sister was probably five, and I had called someone to arrange a play date and the mother said to me, well, your daughter was very mean to my daughter and I don’t think I want them to get together. I don’t remember what I said, but when I repeated the.

To a third person. The person said, well, why don’t you defend your daughter? And I guess I could have said, I’d like to talk to her about that. I don’t know what happened. I only heard that person’s version and I’m not really admitting anything. I think that’s one thing to deal with.

[00:12:53] Nina: I wanna stop you there for a second.

I. That now that I’ve thought these things through a little more in the past year, I have gotten there, but probably before this year, before the podcast, I was very quick, or I tend to even now, I guess sometimes be very quick to just agree that my kid must have done something terrible because I think I overly worry about.

Appearing to be the best mom I could possibly be, and making it very clear that I don’t approve of that kind of behavior and sort of separating myself from my kids. Like if they did something unkind, then I, Nina am unkind. If they did something rude, then I, Nina am rude. You know what I’m saying? It’s, yeah.

I know I’m a different person, but I wish I could sometimes shake another parent and be like, I’m not the same. I’m not my kid. I do my best, but I really can’t control every single thing they.

[00:13:44] Kathy: So let’s say the mother complains to you. You say whatever you say to the mother. I think then you can ask the child, tell me what happened.

And if you sense that your child was unkind, mean, nasty, you can say, how would you like that? That’s how somebody treated you. You can let them know that you don’t approve of that kind of behavior without admitting anything to the other parent.

[00:14:10] Nina: So that’s interesting. This sticking up for your own kid. . I mean, I would maybe hope it doesn’t even get to the point where I would have to stick up for my own kid.

I think maybe I’d like to establish a better sense of, this isn’t really about us because now I’m talking teenagers. Yeah. In your case, as a five year old, how involved do you think it’s appropriate to even get in the teen stuff? Would people contact you about stuff? About me or, or Karen and Lisa? I don’t

[00:14:36] Kathy: remember.

I don’t think. I know it’s so long ago. Yeah, and then you have to be. An example to your child, how you behave toward others is hopefully they’re going to see how you behave and maybe they’ll pick up on, you know, that this is a value that’s important. I’m reminded of a story that involved you where I was patting myself on being a good mother.

Years ago I was asked to do some collection calls for our synagogue, and when I came home, your father said to me, so who hasn’t paid their Jews? Oh, dad and I. To him. This is not your business. It has nothing to do with our marriage. And I’m not discussing this with you. It’s not the right thing to do.

Little did I know that you were in the wings listening to this. Fast forward, somebody goes into the store that you’re working in and proceeds to, uh, announce to the whole staff who hasn’t paid their um, Jewish, United. Pledges and you were really disgusted. You came home and said, you wouldn’t even tell dad.

And I was so proud of you and so proud of me that somehow a value that was important to me got transmitted to you. So sometimes these things work out well, but they don’t always, I mean, we’re human. We make mistakes. We do the best we

[00:15:53] Nina: can. I’ve talked to you about this issue before and, and you said to me that when I was younger, I used to.

maybe better at understanding what was someone else’s issue and what was my issue.

[00:16:07] Kathy: At least when you were growing up, you seemed to be able to separate. That’s that person’s problem. It has nothing to do with you. And I thought that was. A sign of great maturity for somebody so young. I think

[00:16:19] Nina: I’ve regressed

I, I, I’m getting a little better, but you know, again, working on the podcast, I half, the reason I do the podcast is to help myself be a better friend and a stronger person, a stronger individual. I think somehow in the past handful of years, and maybe just having all these kids and all these little arms and legs out there acting in the world, and it is hard to not feel judged sometimes cause somebody’s upset.

A kid of mine, I, I do have to acknowledge, okay, maybe that’s person’s issue or my kid’s issue, but isn’t necessarily my issue.

[00:16:54] Kathy: Well, I think part of being a parent is preparing your children to live in civilization and to be civilized and to behave in an ethical and good manner. You do that by example.

Making comments we’re appropriate where you sense that there’s been some bad behavior and then they have to learn from their mistakes.

[00:17:16] Nina: Yes. I think sometimes teens. Have to suffer natural consequences. You

[00:17:22] Kathy: know, I think that learning to have relationships with people is you have relationships with people and you make your mistakes.

And I dunno if you wanna hear this story, but I’ll tell it. I remember learning the hard way not to be the one to give bad news a friend and I. Um, visit a young man who had leukemia and in our day it was a death sentence. And I heard one morning that this child had died and I wanted to be first with the news to the friend we used to visit together, and she started to sob on the phone.

And I, that was, I was probably in high school at the time and I realized right then not so good to be the first person with bad. To be gossiping and

[00:18:10] Nina: Well, is that really gossip mom, or is that, I mean, someone has to relay the news.

[00:18:14] Kathy: Well, it could have been her parents. It wasn’t my place. Okay. You know, it was insensitive of me because it was a neighbor of her, somebody she was very close to, and I’ve always been reticent since then.

Interesting. I

[00:18:31] Nina: didn’t know that was the genesis of it. ,

[00:18:35] Kathy: which is different from calling a friend when you know that they would wanna make a shiv a call or something like that. Yeah, I guess that was different. I,

[00:18:40] Nina: I, it was different. Anything else on the teenage thing that you wanna

[00:18:45] Kathy: say? Just as we were saying before, some people you learn to have relationships by the mistakes that you make and what works and what doesn’t work.

And natural consequences, as you said, as a great teacher.

[00:18:58] Nina: Yeah, I really think it is. If people like having this, uh, opportunity to ask my mom questions, we’ll do it again. So, mom, thanks once again for your willingness and your patience and your availability to my listeners, which really are our listeners, cuz you’re, you’re such a big part of the whole dear Nina universe.

Not only because, uh, I wouldn’t be here without you, but I think a lot of my world. Stems from your worldview. You’ve been a very good example as a friend and a person in the world, so thank you for all of that. Thank

[00:19:31] Kathy: you for having me as a guest. I enjoyed it.

[00:19:34] Nina: Oh good. I’m glad everybody come back in a couple weeks.

Feel free to join us on the Facebook page. In the meantime, at Dear Nina, the group, I’ll see you on and everyone else, when our friendships are going well, we’re happier all around. Bye.