[00:00:00] Nina: Welcome to another episode of Dear Nina, conversations about friendship. Today’s topic, recognizing a toxic friendship sounds like a serious thing to discuss, and it is, but the two guests here to break this down with me are so fun and delightful that we might forget how unhappy these kinds of friendships can really make people get ready for a lot of Midwestern accents today, starting with mine.

Then add Michelle Anderson and Lauren Mozzarella from the Cozy conversations with the Sister Project, Michelle and Lauren are sisters who run a business together and their podcast co-hosts we’ve never met, but I can’t wait for the three of us to talk. Welcome Michelle and Lauren.

[00:00:44] Lauren: Well, hello there. Thanks for having us.

[00:00:46] Michelle: us.

[00:00:47] Nina: Let’s have a Chicago moment first. , I’m from Highland Park.

[00:00:51] Lauren: Oh, Michael Jordan.

[00:00:53] Nina: Yes, exactly. Actually, , one of my high school boyfriends lived across the street from Michael Jordan. He just had like a normal house. , he eventually moved. But his house, when I was in high school, which was the early to mid nineties, . I was a nice house, but it wasn’t an insane house. But anyway, yes, I’m from Highland Park.

What about you guys? We’ll start with Michelle, so we know who’s talking.

[00:01:11] Michelle: So I say that I was born in Chicago and when I was in college and people would ask me where I was from, I would say Chicago, because that was a lot easier than naming a town that nobody had ever heard of. If , we weren’t standing somewhere in the western suburbs of Chicago. But I dwell in LaGrange Park, which is a west suburb of Chicago, and my friends my entire life have joked that I have the strongest.

Accent of all of our friends,

[00:01:36] Nina: Now, Lauren, you live in this city,

[00:01:38] Lauren: I do, I’m also from LaGrange, , but I live in it’s our version of Little Italy, and sadly, Chicago’s Little Italy is nothing to , write home about. , but I was just in Highland Park a few weeks back and we made a special trip to go see Cameron’s house from, uh, Ferris Bueller’s Day off.

It’s so cool.

[00:01:56] Nina: Very close to where I grew up and I had that exact experience growing up in the suburbs of Chicago. When people would say, where are you from? And I would first say, Chicago. And then they’d be like, oh. And they would like name some corner, , oh, did you ever go to this bar no, cuz I’m a loser from the suburbs.

[00:02:10] Michelle: And then what I would do is I would start to play the name game, six degrees of separation. I was just obsessed with figuring out where people were from and then how many people is it possible that we know from

[00:02:18] Lauren: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:18] Nina: Oh yeah.

So you guys aren’t Jewish, but for us, that’s Jewish geography.

[00:02:22] Lauren: Oh my god, that’s funny. I didn’t know

[00:02:24] Nina: it’s two degrees as every, I

[00:02:25] Lauren: Copy that.

[00:02:26] Nina: Yeah, it’s definitely not six. Okay. Well, I’m in Minneapolis now, so I, and I’ve been here for 20 years, so I’m still like your Midwest sister from another from in a different place.

[00:02:37] Lauren: Love it.

[00:02:38] Nina: All right, so let’s dive into recognizing a toxic friendship. And I, do struggle to use the word toxic because internet culture, , especially Instagram, TikTok, sometimes make words meaningless. I hate to say this cuz it sounds insensitive, but not everything is trauma. Not every person who left you out one time is a toxic friend. and then this expectation that friendships will have no problems, I think is pretty unreasonable. And friendships have ups and downs. That’s even in the description of my podcast. I describe it as conversations about the ups and downs of friendship because it was all ups. I would’ve nothing to podcast about I’d say for me, when I say toxic, . . It’s almost all downs for too long. . And we’ll just use the word toxic because people use it. But let’s think about what it means. It means poisonous. And I end every episode saying when our friendships are going well, we’re happier all around.

cause I really believe it. Deeply. And the opposite is also true of course. And if our friendships are not going well, it brings us down. It

[00:03:33] Lauren: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:34] Nina: just that feeling that something nas at you, enough for me. Whichever one of you wants to start, when you hear , toxic friendship.

What do you mean?

[00:03:43] Lauren: Well, I have to say that to prepare for this, , episode, I actually dreamt about someone, a friend that I broke up with two years ago because it was so, Michelle, you know exactly who I’m talking about, and we won’t say names, but it was so extraordinarily toxic, Nina. It was affecting my mental health, and

in my daily life, it was all consuming. I would say a toxic friendship is when it gets to that point where your mental health, your emotional health is feeling, , affected by it and you are feeling all consumed. Sadly with this specific case, this person, , no jokes aside, totally mentally ill, , not treating it.

So it was really bleeding into every friendship of hers, every relationship, family, neighbors, strangers on the street. , I would say poisonous. It was really, really hard to handle. , so yeah, I would. Toxic, poisonous friendship is when you start to, feel the effects physically and emotionally and mentally from what’s going on with that friendship.

[00:04:47] Michelle: No fun at all. Yeah, I That is no

[00:04:50] Lauren: No fun.

[00:04:51] Michelle: You know, when I think of a toxic friendship, I think of, you know, that phrase energy vampire. When you’re in a situation where you’re just, they suck the life outta you. I think I’ve

had two. Friendships that I would describe as toxic, and when I think back to how those relationships felt when they started to get bad, I felt really emotionally drained.

I felt ,like

I was being dragged into a space that wasn’t mine. and because I am more of a helper and a fixer and a ear and I am such a loyal friend, sometimes I find myself getting pulled into these things and then I realize that it’s a one weight. Street to nowhere and the only thing I’m getting out of it is the SADS and feeling anxious and overwhelmed and all of the low vibing feelings that one should not be feeling when they are in a good fulfilling friendship.

[00:05:44] Nina: That’s right. You know what can be tricky on other episodes, I encourage people to ask their friends for help, we don’t want people to feel like they can’t ask for help because then they’re gonna be seen as needy. But I. I think a way is to ask for help, but also give someone an out if they really just can’t.

, a definition of a toxic friend. One would be someone who. Cannot deal with your boundaries. And

sometimes we just don’t have time

[00:06:10] Lauren: Mm-hmm. totally.

[00:06:12] Nina: So the toxic friend isn’t someone who asks for help, it’s the person who when you say you wish you could, you can’t do this thing, but how about instead you do this other thing next week or something, I think the toxic friend would just not let you off the hook.

And I actually think a lot of healthy friendship is letting each other off the hook.

[00:06:29] Lauren: Absolutely. And you bring up a good point. , I was going through a moment of infertility and I was, you know, back and forth to appointments and I, I remember vividly, , I was in the middle of this toxic friendship and I had just returned home from an egg retrieval and I was laying low she had reached out and I said, you know, I’m, I’m laying low. I’m gonna just kind of touch base with you at another time. And before I knew it, there was a knock at my door and she had shown up and it was already sucking the life outta me before. And then I’m in this really particular kind of circumstance in my life where I couldn’t even escape.

And her toxicity from that moment , and what even was crazier than, her just showing up. Not only does she show up, but then she brings this incredible layer of toxic positivity with her. You’re gonna get pregnant. You’ve never looked skinnier than you do now. , you must have so many eggs in you.

they’re all gonna turn into embryos and. You have to leave my house this instant and I didn’t say it. I actually looked at my husband and I kind of faked sick and I was like, I have to go lie down. Best of luck . I ha I can’t do this.

[00:07:37] Michelle: In a moment where you needed a friend more than ever just to sit there and maybe just sit there with you and

just, you know, and just not say anything. Instead you get the

[00:07:46] Lauren: Bombarded. Yeah.

, and there was no respect of the boundaries. And Nina, you’re so right. I think a healthy relationship, friendship or, a romantic relationship or family relationship boundaries are so important to be respected.

Cuz once that they are broken, you’re kind of realizing what kind of person you’re dealing with.

[00:08:03] Nina: The fact that she showed up, even though you said you needed space, in an adult friendship like that, it’s like you know what you need. You said you needed space. Like you don’t need someone to like question your own physical and emotional needs.

Yes. Right, she probably did it because in her mind, in a very black and white world, that’s all good friends shows all like very robotic,

[00:08:22] Lauren: totally.

[00:08:23] Nina: to life and you don’t just show up when someone specifically has asked you not to.

[00:08:29] Lauren: Right, and I, I also appreciate you saying that because from my point of view too, I also looked at her like, you know what? She’s looking at this. What a friend should do is show up and be there and bring flowers. But unfortunately, under the circumstances, we were already in such, tumultuous moment in our friendship that her showing up was not helpful.

, it was actually more painful. And more of a burden than a friend coming over with a bowl of soup and saying , Hey, , I can leave, or I can stay and keep you company. We can turn on a movie and watch sex in the city and just lay low. You know? It was such different circumstances.

And when someone can’t identify that they are intruding on your personal space or time alone is Yeah. Is when you start questioning and shortly after that, Nina is, when I put the kibosh on that, , situation, it was too much.

[00:09:15] Nina: hold onto that cause I do wanna come. , when we’re done talking about some other toxic traits, I really wanna hear how you manage that, because I know that that’s a lot of people’s question is, okay, so you recognize all these things, but then, then what? So we’re gonna come back to

that. , I know you guys love today. The Today

Show

[00:09:33] Lauren: Today

Oh, we watch it. Religion like it’s who we spend our morning with.

[00:09:37] Michelle: Mm.

[00:09:38] Nina: So on today.com. There was a piece about toxic friendships and they quoted a therapist, This therapist’s name is Karina Ibar Jacobs. One thing she did talk about was boundaries, which we really covered she used the word guilt a lot. kind of similar to boundaries, but someone who makes you feel guilty when you say no someone who makes you feel guilty for spending time with other friends.

You know? Cause sometimes we have friends who, who do need us and or we just would enjoy being with other people. And then this other one I thought was really interesting.

[00:10:06] Lauren: Somebody

[00:10:07] Nina: who pushes you to abandon your own limits, your own values.

So maybe it’s someone who pushes you to drink more than you would wanna

[00:10:14] Lauren: Totally. Yep. Yeah, I was going to say that earlier, that another toxic trait would be someone who brings you out of a lifestyle that you deem healthy and into maybe a lifestyle where you’re maybe abusing whatever, if it’s a substance or not.

Sticking to what your moral compass or, , healthy lifestyle might be.

[00:10:33] Nina: All right. Lauren and Michelle, I know you both have other examples. Lauren, what was one of yours?

[00:10:39] Lauren: another friendship. I found toxic was, a good friend who was struggling with substance abuse , of various kinds. And there was a lot of hiding and a lot of lying, and then a lot of the spouse getting me involved in their relationship and that became, Overwhelming to a degree that I was feeling gaslit.

. . That was an experience for me where these two people I. Loved and loved dearly.

They mean no harm. It’s just, you know, a phase of friendship in life that did not work out Those are really hard decisions when you have to say, you know what? This is so exceptionally. unhealthy for me. I have to exit this friendship.

And then when they come back, you know, a year or two later, and they’re knocking on your door and, and wanting to reconnect , I’m very . Trepidatious. , responding to this outreach because you get a little P T S D, you’re like, oh, that was gnarly a few years ago.

You guys really got me into some weird situations in regards to , your relationships and our friendship, I think three times about responding and being engaged in that friendship in, in these two situations.

[00:11:50] Nina: Well, social media makes it really hard to actually be separate,

[00:11:53] Lauren: not if you, uh, unfriend them and unfollow

them. Yep.

[00:11:57] Nina: It takes a lot of strength cuz that’s the ultimate final, unfriending and blocking, Michelle, did you have another

[00:12:05] Michelle: It’s a similar experience. I had, , an experience with friends. They were a couple, I’m friends with both. One was suffering with addiction. The wife, my good friend was navigating their own stuff and then me caught in this sort

of web.

It became quite toxic and I would say to myself, I’m out. I have to completely remove myself from the situation. I, , was like, guys, this is the deal. I love you, obviously, I want you guys to be amazing and everyone be healthy, but , I can’t be a sounding board or a punching

bag or, yeah, basically.

Yeah. And pawn in your, madness. So I’m here. The friendship is still, , alive and we’ve kind of put the wheels back on the bus, but I think that part of that healing process, what really helped that was, , distance makes the heart grow fonder.

I think that the, the pulling away and, navigating their own path. It brought us back together and I’m glad that that friendship is still here. There was a bump. It was hard, it was sad, it was emotional, and we’re back in a good place. sometimes you just need space and

[00:13:15] Nina: Yeah,

[00:13:16] Michelle: it works itself out.

[00:13:17] Nina: space does sometimes work. I did, a whole episode, it’s actually one of my top episodes with a very close friend of mine where we did take like a two year break and she came on and we talked about it and it was like very real. My best friend from college and, and we’re super close again and.

, there were only two years we weren’t really talking. So we’ve been friends much longer than we, you know, met at 18 than we weren’t. But those two years really allowed us to be friends all those years after. And it wasn’t really like a toxic situation. It was much more nuanced and complicated than that.

And that was an early episode. That was episode number seven if anybody’s looking for it. And it was about reconciling after a friendship breakup, which. It doesn’t always happen. You know, you aren’t always able to reconcile, and that’s okay too.

I mean, there’s the whole friendship for a season too.

[00:14:02] Lauren: especially , if the situation is so difficult , and both parties aren’t willing to acknowledge maybe who is maybe at fault or where there’s responsibility to be taking or accountability to say, you know, yeah, , I was not there for you during these moments in your life, or, I was really in a bad place.

The one friendship, the latter of the two that I mention, We have since been talking not regularly, but we have had a moment. , it’s actually a really sad story because , she was going to a Christmas party over the holidays, this past holiday, and, she called just to talk on the phone and we often would get into this conversation of, Like, what’s the truth?

What really happened? , because it’s such a, such a complicated story. I can’t really go into the details, but we, we were getting into it again and she started crying and she’s like, I’m sitting outside this house. I’m supposed to be going into this Christmas party. I’m like, where are you? She told me where she was.

I said, do you wanna come over and have a hug? And she’s like, yes. So she came over . It was so wonderful to like see her in person. This is a very dear friend of mine. We go way back and there are just a lot of stuff going on in between the way back and the now and , seeing her was something I think we needed of seeing one another was something that we needed to happen for this.

New friendship that we have to move forward. But again, there’s a lot of ghosting not on my part. , she kind of appears and then disappears. So with this instance, I kind of let the wind take it and see what happens. And as always, wish these individuals well, but

[00:15:32] Michelle: I could see in your situation, Lauren, like that’s one where I’d keep, the guard up a little. Not all. the way up,

Open a little. Yeah.

[00:15:40] Nina: Yeah. Well, the truth is it’s uncomfortable for people to accept this. Sometimes, depending on what side of things you’re on, you do get to choose your friends and you don’t have to be stuck with somebody just because you were friends a long time or because they were there for you in an important time.

I mean, I think sometimes we allow ourselves to be trapped in a friendship because. , that was the person who got you through a certain situation. And, and at that time they probably were good friend and you were a good friend to them. But, , things change and it’s very hard to remember that we get to choose.

It’s different than family, different than sisters, right? It isn’t forever I have four kids, when my oldest was going through teenage stuff, I was much more, you know, panicky about, oh, that you’re not hanging out with this person anymore and as each kid. Has gone into the teen thing, I, I let go. I try to not even get attached to

[00:16:30] Lauren: to their

friend.

[00:16:31] Nina: cuz I remember,

[00:16:32] Lauren: Teenagers are a different kind of friendship. Even Michelle with your daughter. I feel like she is experiencing what you’re saying. There’s kind of this coming and going of certain friend groups.

[00:16:42] Nina: Well, one more example I wanted to share what feels toxic to me is when someone feels they’re entitled to all the information. And that could be about any topic, let’s say it’s about my kids, for example. If someone asks a lot of questions, and if I’m vague, my expectation is if I’m being vague, you’re gonna stop.

Or if

it’s about me, . If I want to feel like I don’t have to uncomfortably say, I would rather not speak about that. If I’m barely giving you an answer, I don’t wanna talk about it.

[00:17:09] Lauren: it.

[00:17:09] Nina: Sense it and move on.

And the kind of person who maybe continues to push, ultimately I’m not gonna probably be able to stay close, cuz I actually have such a hard time guarding information , I can be such an open book about myself that it takes a lot of work for me to actually be private. And so if I’m doing the work to be private, I need my friends to pick up on it.

And then, like I said at the beginning, let me off the hook. Just let me off the hook.

[00:17:33] Lauren: I find that interesting. because I am the type of person that I need that friend and I have to tell her everything. My friend Devin or Maggie or Deanna. , I don’t know if I’ve ever told them or have in ever insinuated that I don’t wanna give them any more information.

I’m

[00:17:49] Nina: Oh, I have friends like that too.

, but there may be certain topics that are just too fraught. And I guess if I’m not feeling comfortable sharing, it’s cuz I feel I’ll be judged with my answer.

[00:17:58] Lauren: mm-hmm. . Wait, what kind of,

[00:18:00] Nina: you’re.

[00:18:01] Lauren: of topics

[00:18:02] Nina: it’s not even any particular topic per se, it’s just that if I’m being vague, which is unusual for me, I am very chatty and open. It means something. And so I don’t wanna be pushed and that, that’s it. I think boundaries,

[00:18:14] Michelle: Yeah,

[00:18:15] Lauren: boundaries,

yes,

[00:18:17] Michelle: and we’re all

allowed. ‘

to have ’em.

[00:18:18] Lauren: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:19] Nina: Yes, we, we are entitled Lauren, , let’s come back cause we’re gonna wrap us up with, okay. So everyone out there, there isn’t just one definition for a toxic friendship, but if you recognize that you’re feeling all these feelings we’re talking about where there’s a lot of anxiety about the friendship, you don’t wanna see the person,

they’re pushing you past, normal limits that you’ve set for yourself. Okay, so you’ve, you’ve recognized all this and you were like, I. To have a break from this friend. Maybe forever. Maybe just for now, how did you do it with the friend you were speaking of originally?

[00:18:47] Lauren: yes, that first situation about the infertility thing. So as many women who’ve gone through infertility, you know that it’s a really difficult time and going through the process of IVF and all of these things just adds. A huge amount of pressure and anxiety in general. So then you have this toxic friend coming in there were so many instances that we would need five hours to go everything.

But the ultimate was, as I mentioned, that I did find out that she was just talking complete crap about me behind my back to another friend. Why this other friend told. , that she was doing that I think she was fed up it was just a bunch of bananas. to layer on top of that was she started to become angry and combative with me.

And in my friendships, that’s not part of a friendship for me, is anger and combative and getting yelled at. So that day after she had. Come by after I said I need some space. I just had that egg retrieval. , she had left and I thanked her for coming by like a day later. And, you know, she said, you seemed a little off.

I didn’t understand what your problem with me was. I was honest with her. I pointed out, I said, you know, I’m going through a lot and you talking about my weight. When, you know, when you’re going through ivf you’re really bloated and you’re very sensitive, physic. , I don’t know why you keep talking about what I look like physically.

You coming in saying, I’m going to get pregnant after not getting pregnant so many times. It’s just, it’s very overwhelming and I, , I can’t do this right now. And so I did verbalize that I need more space. And then she took another day and she wrote me, A novel of a text message that I refused to read because moments before I received her text, I got an uh, a phone call from the nurse at the infertility clinic telling me yet again.

Nothing came from this I V F round. And I was done. I was spent, and she wrote me this, this insane text message and I said to her, you know what? I just received awful information. And yet again, you are popping up into these situations and making them harder than they already are. And now I am. I am done and I will not read your text message now or ever.

And that is how I ended that friendship. And I

have never spoken to her since.

[00:21:03] Nina: Lauren. Oh my gosh. That’s hard to do. No, you were driven to the

[00:21:07] Lauren: I was driven Nina. I was driven to the edge and it was hard to do. It was the best decision I have ever made in my entire life. She lives two blocks from my.

[00:21:18] Nina: I like

gased

[00:21:19] Lauren: Yeah. I gasp too when I’m walking with my baby and I see her in the park and it’s, it’s a lot and it’s negative and it’s, you know what?

We’re good. If I see her close enough, we’ll, I’ll wave and say hello, but that ship has sailed and , it’s done.

[00:21:35] Nina: Do you share friends still?

[00:21:36] Lauren: We do. And I honestly, sadly, she lost a lot of friends during that time. Like I said, going through.

[00:21:43] Michelle: Yeah.

[00:21:44] Lauren: Yeah.

[00:21:44] Nina: gosh.

[00:21:45] Lauren: Gotta put your foot down. That’s not a good friendship right there.

[00:21:48] Michelle: yeah. You have to protect your own. . You know, life is hard enough.

Life is hard enough. Friends are supposed to be a support. Lauren, and I always say this, girl, time is a necessity. Friend. Time is a necessity. , I mean, some of my most, , enriching, fulfilling, battery recharging moments are when I’m surrounded by my tribe, my support, my.

Friendships that are a give and take, and we are there for each other. , when somebody needs somebody, we’re there. When I need someone, they’re there. When none of that is being, , part of the equation, like Lauren said, you’re out,

[00:22:20] Lauren: I’m done.

[00:22:20] Nina: Lauren, you did do a kind thing actually, because I do hear a lot from the point of view of the person who was broken up with, and I’d say the biggest issue that comes up is the mystery of it. , when there’s no explanation. She may not agree with your

explanation, cuz of course everyone, no, everyone has their own side. Everyone, most people see things through their

own side, but you didn’t just completely.

Disappear, which is tempting.

[00:22:44] Lauren: No, because here’s the deal, Nina. This was a circumstance. , we live near one another. , and there were still walk bys. My house there was contacting my husband. I mean, it was, I am done. You can carry on a friendship with my husband if you want.

And that’s fine. I’m, because they know each other from a long time ago. , that is okay, but me, , I’m seeing my way out and I’m not coming back. . I feel like there’s some friends, if you do not tell them you’re done, they’re gonna just keep coming around

[00:23:12] Nina: And you can understand, how the mystery would, you know, just drive a person crazy

And and, yeah. But most people ghost, I would say it’s rare to have an honest moment like that, so kudos cuz I

[00:23:23] Michelle: I’m. ,I’m

probably more of a, i, I ghosted. I

ghosted, I ghosted a friend in high school. , but I have to say to that point, that situation , I was a part of a group of girls. I’m still friends with all of ’em except for this one person. we evolved and she was. Doing weird things like , borrowing money from me when I was 20, 23 years old and just trying to figure out , my own career.

And I’m like, , I don’t have any money myself. , what is going on here? , I don’t even think it’s worth an explanation. , I’m out. This was good. You were in our group because we were all together, but I’m gonna go ahead and move on.

And that also worked just nicely. So, but I’m sorry to say that I fall into that majority.

[00:23:58] Nina: Why don’t you send her a Venmo request and you know,

20 years later, ,we didn’t have those Then. You actually had to like, call a person can you even imagine? How did we pay? How did we pay for things? I think like we wrote checks. It’s , hard to picture.

All right, you too. I’m going to wrap us up with a question that has nothing to do with toxic friendships. I actually think we covered that pretty well, and I hope people feel heard if there’s someone in their lives like that. Sometimes you just need to hear that you’re not the only person

who is feeling bombarded by a friendship and that you feel empowered to.

End it.

[00:24:29] Lauren: totally

[00:24:30] Nina: topic

that we’ll end on. A friendship thing I’m thinking about sometimes is I struggle lately to not constantly bring up the podcast, especially cuz it’s about friendship. So when I’m with a friend and, and not all my friends listen to it, not all my friends are podcast listeners, right?

, that’s just not a medium that they do, that they, people still listen to music. It’s funny cause I hardly listen to music anymore cause I’m listening to so many podcasts and books. But sometimes I hear a song and I’m like, oh, you have music?

[00:24:55] Lauren: A song.

[00:24:56] Nina: right? A song. I love it, but. When I’m gonna walk with someone or whatever, I’ll be like, oh, I just talked about that on my podcast.

Cuz I do talk about a lot of these things and I’m trying to stop saying it because I feel it may imply that I expect them to

listen. I appreciate when friends listen. I mean, I love it. , and I don’t take it for granted, but I don’t expect it. How do you handle that? Do you find yourself bringing it up a lot?

, do you feel disappointed if friends don’t listen?

[00:25:21] Michelle: No, I don’t bring it up a lot, and I couldn’t care less if they listen. Some of them do. A

[00:25:26] Lauren: of them do. I

[00:25:27] Michelle: Less than

[00:25:28] Lauren: than most,

to podcasts in general.

[00:25:31] Michelle: , but I’m good with it.

[00:25:32] Nina: That’s a healthy attitude. I generally have the attitude and I know it is the right attitude. I hear from a lot of writers who are upset, their friends haven’t bought or read their books, I have an article on my website Your Friend is not going to read your book. we have not that much free time. Right.

And

just cuz

you

wrote a

book

doesn’t mean

everyone

you know is going to read it or buy it.

[00:25:49] Lauren: I was sitting next to a friend of mine two days ago, and she was telling me about all the true crime podcasts she likes to listen to, and I’m a true crime junkie too. I listen to a ton of True Crime podcasts and I know she doesn’t listen to my podcast and , I’m a Scorpio and I like to give it, I’m not like, you don’t listen to my podcast.

What I wanted to say was, why don’t you throw in one of my podcasts in there, but I don’t, and instead what I find. . I have another group of friends who, it’s a three woman, text thread. Two of them are very loyal listeners. The other one doesn’t even know how to work a podcast

She’s like, do I tune in on the radio ? , . But I find instead of even bringing up, Like saying , we talked about it on the podcast. I just leave that part of the equation out and just talk more about what that topic was. So say Terry and Megan because we talk about the Royals sometimes on our podcast, and someone might bring up oh my God, did you see they got kicked out of Frogmore?

And instead of saying , we just talked about on the podcast, I would more. Be like, , let’s dive in deep and almost treat them as if they’re a podcast guest and use that time to just talk shop about, the stuff that I’m interested in anyways.

But I get it

[00:26:53] Michelle: Listen, I think that people’s time is valuable and I understand that people are giving us 45 minutes of their time to listen to us, we are filling a need or a, . Offering some sort of value or enrichment to their life. Like we are what they need and that’s why they come.

And I feel like those folks that don’t, you know, maybe they wanna listen to Brene Brown because they’re looking for personal growth and development, you know, like Lauren and I like to have a good time and lighten it up and, , talk about real heavy stuff, but also live life and have fun. And I just get, people choose their time according to what they need in that moment.

And it doesn’t hurt my feelings if

they

[00:27:31] Lauren: If it’s not a, if it’s not cozy convos,

[00:27:33] Nina: That’s good. That’s right. I’m gonna take that to heart. I mostly feel that way, , like I said, I advise authors that way. I sometimes have to remind myself, and I guess if you’re someone. Has friends who are in that kind of space. You don’t have to listen. It’s nice to just ask about it sometimes.

How’s it

[00:27:47] Lauren: like you live

[00:27:48] Nina: their job. How’s work?

[00:27:49] Michelle: Well, Nina, that’s what I was gonna say before, you know, there’s the one friend that’s infringing on your privacy, that’s always asking. And then there’s the other friends, and I think that this might fall in line of a toxic friendship is the ones that don’t ask anything, don’t know your kids’ names or don’t know what you like.

You don’t need to know the dirty details, but , I do have a couple of friends on the periphery. They’re not my besties. And maybe that’s why they’re on the periphery. Because, you know, I always leave the conversation and I’m always the one asking, and I’m always the one offering.

And I’m always

I feel like you truly

[00:28:18] Lauren: don’t And do

you

know who I am? ?

[00:28:20] Michelle: Yeah,

[00:28:21] Lauren: I did, you know

anything about me?

[00:28:23] Michelle: lack of asking is

also file that and toxic

as well.

[00:28:27] Lauren: It’s a

two-way street.

[00:28:29] Nina: Sometimes , I’ll get a sense that someone’s like a little bit exasperated with , the amount of questions I’m asking and I wanna be like, , you can ask a question back now. Anyway, I’m going to close us out with giving you an opportunity to tell everybody where they can find you.

[00:28:41] Michelle: . Lauren, take it away.

[00:28:42] Lauren: So you can find Michelle and I in all of our work at the sister project blog.com. That is our blog. It’s a lifestyle blog where we focus on cozy, mindful wellbeing. We cover so many topics from our lifestyle. Also, , as we’ve mentioned, infertility, , grief. Our mom passed away from dementia. , the same type that Bruce Willis was just diagnosed with.

So we talk a lot about loss and, um, everyday life. You can also find us , on any podcast, , streaming platform, cozy Conversations with the Sister Project. And please follow us at the Sister Proj on Instagram. We got a lot going on

[00:29:18] Michelle: and just one final plug. When you come to Cozy Conversations and, join in on our conversation, it feels a lot like you’re in the room with us having that chat. And Lauren and I like to say you’re guaranteed to learn a little something every time and you’re also gonna laugh a ton.

[00:29:34] Lauren: Yep.

[00:29:34] Michelle: what we offer you when you come and hang out with us on the pod

[00:29:36] Nina: That’s right. I can vouch for that. I’ve enjoyed listening and I am so glad to, finally meet you

[00:29:41] Michelle: convo.

[00:29:43] Nina: we’re all conversationalists, We would hang out and no one would

get a word

in. It’d be great. It’d be the opposite of the other problem we were talking. about. All right, everybody, hope to see you soon. When our friendships are going well, we are happier all around. No toxic friends.