[00:00:00] Nina: Oversharing, over talking, undersharing, not being vulnerable enough to really get close to friends. These are the topics we are dealing with today. Hi, I am Nina Badzin. You have landed on Dear Nina, Conversations About Friendship. I am so glad you’re here. If you’re back or here for the first time, welcome to what is going to be a very frank conversation about conversations, the way we approach conversations, both as a talker and as a listener. I share some moments where I grapple with the concept of over talking and over sharing.

[00:00:42] Nina: I know I’ve used the word conversations a lot, but it’s interesting. It’s actually in my title, Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship, but I don’t always take the time to analyze conversation itself. I invited Micaela Blei to help me. She is a Grand Slam winning storyteller, a two time Moth Grand Slam winning storyteller for that matter. She is the former founding director of education at the Moth. People really perfect the art of storytelling. who better to have with me to really think deeply about what do we mean when we say oversharing? What do we mean when we say over talking? What about undertalking, undersharing, and, and what that has to do with a lack of closeness you might feel in relationships.

Maybe oversharing and overtalking is just in the eye of the listener, of the beholder. That doesn’t really make sense. but ear of the listener. Everybody has a different level of comfort around how much people share, how much they want to listen, how much they themselves want to share.

There’s really no right or wrong. Micaela and I talk about the correct matchup of energy and conversation. And a lot of this stuff is hard to figure out until you try, until you go out and meet people and see if that matchup of energy is there. this was a very helpful conversation to me. I didn’t set out to make Micaela help me sort out my own feelings about my own, strengths and shortcomings when it comes to conversations and things that, you know, maybe bother me and why they bother me. without further ado, let’s, dive in with Micaela.

Hi, Micaela. Welcome to the show.

[00:02:21] Micaela: Hi, Nina. It’s so great to be here. Thank you for having me.

[00:02:24] Nina: I would love to hear in your words a little bit more about your background because it’s so interesting.

I’m a storyteller. I’m a story editor for audio for podcasts, actually narrative podcasts, and I’m a story coach. So I help people find and shape and share the stories of their lives.

[00:02:41] Micaela: I come from education. I was a third grade teacher for a long time and then ended up going to grad school and did my PhD research on storytelling and identity. So narrative identity, in teachers and students. So my real interest has always been, how do we share the stories of our lives? Who do we share them with and what are we doing with our own identities when we do that sharing

[00:03:04] Nina: There is so much decision making that goes into the stories we tell, isn’t it? And it’s like a lot of it is subconscious and then some of it is conscious, Why when I hear the word oversharing, it’s not just me, but I think when that word gets used, do I feel icky? I feel, maybe as someone who has possibly been accused of it before, I was worried about being, I’m like answering my own question, but how do you feel when you hear that word?

[00:03:28] Micaela: it is such a loaded word. To me, it gets at this social contract that everyone’s going to know the exact right amount to share, that there is an over and under, and that we’re trying to hit this magic middle. I have also felt like I overshared or been afraid I was oversharing.

Actually, now that I think about it, I don’t know that I’ve ever felt that someone else was oversharing to me, and this is maybe more about my personality than anything else that I tend to want to hear what anyone is giving me. Right? And so there’s almost no such thing as oversharing to me.

But it does make me anxious to wonder, did I give too much? And I think it’s, I think to me, it’s really about matching up how much this person opposite me wants to share versus how much I want to share. And are we a match?

[00:04:16] Nina: what’s so tricky, a lot of advice I give on my podcast in my writing about friendship over the past 10 years, is that if you want to get closer with somebody, you have to show some vulnerability. You can’t keep everything surface.

Of course, things start on the surface. A lot of people say to me, about joining groups are trying to go to events where they may meet people. They don’t want to, they’re reluctant because they say, I hate small talk. The truth is you don’t get closer unless you start with some small talk.

I mean, nobody, I guess that’s where maybe oversharing might be, but if a 10 is we’re really close. We’re really connected. This friendship is so deep. And a one is like, this is very surface. We haven’t gotten past, what do you do for a living? Where do you live? I mean, you don’t start at a 10.

We could brush past a one pretty quickly with good chemistry, to a completely avoid small talk is unrealistic. When I say to people, you need to open up, you need to be vulnerable. I think what they’re looking for is how do you know? Like you said, that’s this contract we’re looking for, like, what’s the right amount? What are some signs that this is a safe person?

[00:05:17] Micaela: I think that is an amazing tool and skill for friendship making is how do you sense or understand what clues do you look for? Honestly, there’s a lot in common between this and flirting, right? Like being able to read signals. I think that I fully agree with what you’re saying about small talk being this necessary place to go before you get to the, as you say, get to the 10.

I think that that’s your place where you’re reading cues, where it’s still safe to read cues. You’re looking for common ground. I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve been awkward at the chip bowl at a party and loading my plate for the 15th time because I just don’t really know where to go in these small groups of people and someone else is there.

We make eye contact and one of us has the nerve to say, these things are so awkward. And then the other one goes, yes, I know. Or if you’re starting with small talk and one of you says something a little off that the other person agrees with, you suddenly have this sense of here is a kindred person.

Here’s a person that I can say something real to. You’re not just reading do we have the same opinion? You’re also reading, how are they looking at you? How are they responding? are they making eye contact or, nodding and being interested when you say something that’s a little bit more personal, right?

You’re sort of edging into the pool I am a, get into the pool super slowly, kind of freak out when my bathing suit gets wet kind of a person. I think of that kind of conversational dynamic as well.

[00:06:52] Nina: here’s my own awkwardness that I’m going to share. I have no problem asking questions, frankly, or answering them. I feel like I’m interviewing sometimes. And that’s my cue when someone’s not the right kind of person for me is if I feel like I’m conducting an interview, because if I’m asking a question, even just basic things, I’m not talking about like your deepest, darkest secrets, just, Oh, where do you guys live?

You know, where do your kids go to school? You know, if it’s clear that we’re in a situation with kids, let’s say, and everything is very. quick answers and no question back. And they sometimes will give you that feel like, why are you interviewing me? Or they give you that vibe. I used to, I think, feel something was wrong with me. And then I finally realized, no, they can ask a question back. then it won’t feel like an interview. You can ask back.

[00:07:32] Micaela: it sounds like you and I both are very used to taking responsibility for the conversation in that

[00:07:36] Nina: I, I do.

[00:07:38] Micaela: And so to remind yourself, I think that’s so smart to remind yourself, no, this is a two way street. I’m giving my part and what are they giving me is an important piece of that.

I think you’re getting at something really important though, around sharing it. And oversharing, which is also that it has a lot to do with how much the other person is pulling from you inviting you to share. And sometimes I wonder if that feeling of did I overshare is because what you offered didn’t match what they asked for, That they weren’t inviting things and they weren’t asking you those follow up questions and they weren’t sort of getting deeper and you were going there anyway. It’s a mismatch of offer receive.

[00:08:20] Nina: I have not really thought about it that way. And that’s such a good point. that offer receive concept. Really speaks to me.

[00:08:26] Micaela: I mean, this is something I’ve, I’ve thought a lot about. What, why I gravitated towards storytelling performance, by the way, and I’ve thought a ton about the relationship between storytelling performance, which is just this making of art out of the thing we do conversationally anyway, right? Like, unlike violin or ballet, you don’t just do ballet in, at cocktail parties. But you do tell stories at cocktail parties, or with friends. I am someone who definitely worries about the parameters of things. And I think I gravitated towards storytelling performance because it was a place where I knew no one was going to look at their phone.

I knew there were clear parameters for me. I’m going to talk for five minutes and then I’m done. And then I get to hear someone else talk for five minutes. And I got to think ahead of time what I was going to share so that I could decide beforehand, what is enough for me?

And I’ve taken a lot of the lessons that I sort of learned from, um, being a storyteller into my social life I’m very aware of airtime in conversations now, because when I teach storytelling, I’m always making sure everyone has enough time to sort of say what they need to say in a show.

There’s always enough time for everyone to say what they need to say. So I’m really aware of that. I’m really aware of attention because. You know, when you’re at a show, you turn your phone off you’re not checking your email while someone is telling a story in front of you. so I think there’s something really interesting too for me about having formalized it as a way to examine.

What I do in regular life with friends, old friends, new friends, colleagues, everyone,

[00:10:06] Nina: I want to tell you something that relates to this so much. I think you’ll get a kick out of it, and we’re going to come back to airtime because I think that’s so important, it really, really is. Uh, is a hot topic for me. When the pandemic began and we were in the early stages of it in 2020 around March, all of us in the world didn’t know how long we’d be there, right?

There was this sense of okay, we, you know, we can do this. It’s a couple of week.s Then it maybe got into week three or so, my crew of friends in town, we got on Marco Polo we were leaving each other video messages. after a while, people started to kind of get sick of it, but I was going strong and my messages were clearly longer than everybody else’s.

I was into it. And finally I realized, you know what? I need to start a podcast. clearly, clearly I’ve got stuff to say. And I had been writing about friendship for about seven years when I started the podcast. So it was very natural. This is what it was going to be about. And I had been a long time podcast listener. I’d wanted to start one, but I just, you know, it’s a big learning curve. I just kept putting it off. And I was like, well, something in me is looking for the microphone and instead of subjecting my own friends to my droning voice, I was like I’ll just subject a bunch of strangers to it and people can decide whether to tune in or not.

And what you’re saying about the storytelling at the performance a person coming to a Moth show knows what they’re coming to they are coming to listen That is different than what friends are looking for in a conversation.

I think that you can have a friend who really is a good storyteller and has lots to say, but sometimes has lost track of the fact that group of friends that are sitting before you, or even if they’re, like you said, newer friends, that’s a good point, or colleagues or anyone, they are not your audience. And you have to know the difference.

[00:11:47] Micaela: I would add even a little bit of nuance to that, which is there’s a dark side and a light side to that idea of monologuing at your friends, in my opinion, because the dark side, yes, is this is not your audience. Maybe there is a different microphone that you want to find. The light side to me is that, listening is also an act of love. It makes me think about, my dad who is a famous non editor of his stories. He used to drive me home from college.

It was about 45 minutes from the train station. And so he would pick me up at the train station, drive me home. It’s 45 minutes. he could make a story last 45 minutes, telling me how the traffic was and like doing a digression about like how landscaping is going. Like whatever came up in the story, he’d give it to me.

In my head, I called it dad radio. But again, it’s a contract, right? We have an understanding that that’s what’s going to happen. I’m telling him, yes, I will hear whatever you want to tell me. And he’s telling me, I know that you’re the audience for this. And so there is this, place where, again, to me, when you’re thinking about those Marco Polos, it seems to me like it’s about the fact that no one else was doing those long Marco Polos.

[00:12:55] Nina: Or responding at a certain point, like they stopped responding. And I’m, I am a socially ept. And so, you know, I realized, oh, okay, they’re over it. This is annoying to them. They’re getting, and no one ever said it to me, they may be even would deny it to this day, but not even a response. It means it’s enough already, move on.

[00:13:13] Micaela: Right. That’s the signal they’re giving you. but I do want to say that there are times, like, I, I shy away from saying like, uh oh, make sure you’re not talking too much I remember, um, I had a really close friend, several years ago. We would spend so long on the phone together at some point she just wanted to tell me the way she makes miso soup and it was an incredibly elaborate and I was like, yeah, go for it. I don’t need to talk right now. I’m doing my dishes while you tell me about me. So soup. And I think there’s something really lovely about that too.

But crucially that’s different than, I mean, we’re talking now about sort of over talking versus over sharing. Right?

[00:13:46] Nina: But I did want to talk about that too, because you had brought up the word airtime, which is a different, kind of nicer way of saying it. I did want to talk about over talking. I like the expression airtime because it, I don’t know, it feels less nasty. by the way, my dad who is no longer with us also talked a lot. He wouldn’t tell us a 45 minute story, but, he definitely could monopolize what felt to me.

Like that’s a judgment on my part, but sometimes I could feel, I wouldn’t feel it necessarily just with me. Immediate family, but then when you take your family out on a larger scale, if you have a social awareness about you, and maybe even a little bit of a lack of confidence, like maybe I was worried what people thought, right?

So I could feel, what I felt my dad going on too long. And I think it has made me as an adult sensitive to anyone going on too long, including myself. I know I can go on too long. I very aware of it though. So I do stop myself. And sometimes I stop myself to the point where I don’t say anything and I’m probably boring to be around, but, I’m aware of it.

And so I’m aware of other people doing it. And I get uncomfortable when I’m in a situation where somebody is doing 90 percent of the talking and I could feel the people around, whether it’s girlfriends or family, whatever, just, bristle. It’s like, I feel like again, the responsibility, I don’t know why I feel responsible. I want to save that person from themselves because I have had a situation where a friend told me I was an overtalker and maybe she didn’t mean it as meanly as I took it because I myself find that trait bothersome in other people.

And maybe sometimes we notice things about other people that bothers us about ourselves So that’s why it bothers me about other people, but she said it in a very offhand she was maybe telling a story about someone else and She was like, oh, you know, she’s an overtalker kind of like you. It pierced me. Well first I burst into tears, which I don’t do a lot.

That really clearly touched a thing in me. she was so apologetic. And she felt so bad that she made me cry. who wants to make their friend cry? But I was like, no, this is clearly about me. Not about you at this point. this is obviously touching something in me. But I think for years after I was actually quite quiet I mean, it was really rough.

[00:15:49] Micaela: It is really rough. I agree with you completely about if a criticism doesn’t hit a thing that you fear about yourself, we are able to dismiss it. I’ve gotten bad reviews before where I was like, okay, well, that’s your opinion. I know that’s not true, my fear, by the way, my, one of my deepest social fears is that someone would term me a comedienne. I E N N E like that they would tell someone else about me and say, Oh, she’s a comedienne. It’s a very random fear. The aesthetic or the sensibility of that word being, I don’t know, I just really worry about it

[00:16:24] Nina: it feels dismissive.

[00:16:26] Micaela: feels dismissive. It feels, like she’s trivial. If someone were to tell that to me, to my face, I don’t know that I would ever forget it. I think you’re absolutely right. And it sounds like it knocked your antenna a little bit so that you’re now not sure, where is the line for me It messes with your confidence a bit to hear that someone else is thinking the very thing that you worry is being thought. I will say though, it’s a tough word, but it isn’t necessarily quality negative to me.

[00:16:58] Nina: What would you do or what do you do in a situation where somebody in the group friends, family is definitely monopolizing the airtime. What can people do? do you just let that person sort of burn? I feel bad sometimes leaving them out to dry. Is there anything that can be

[00:17:16] Micaela: Well, I guess I would ask you, why do you feel like it’s your responsibility?

[00:17:20] Nina: Honestly, I probably would need hundreds of hours of therapy to answer that. I don’t know. But it’s a good question. You’re right. It’s not really my responsibility, but I sometimes can feel the tension I know everyone’s aware of it.

[00:17:33] Micaela: everyone’s aware of it. I’m not an expert on conversational dynamics at a party, Lord knows. I’m not very good at parties. I had a semi regular dinner party and one of my friends, showed up in a really bad way and offended some other people. And rather than dealing with it, I just never had that dinner party again was done.

[00:17:53] Nina: Absolutely. Can’t canceled forever. I get that.

[00:17:57] Micaela: I couldn’t do it. So, but that being said, experienced this moment and I also you can sense what’s happening in the room and whether or not you’re the organizer of what’s happening.

If it was my table, it was that I would probably try to change the state. So I would, figure out, Oh, I forgot a part of the course and bring it out. Or something different to shift the energy and the topic. that’s what I would do if it was my table. If it wasn’t my table, I would practice sitting with it. I might try to change the subject and sort of insert myself and find a place to do so, but.

[00:18:30] Nina: I definitely do that, just inserted myself, but I would rather not. My goal is to get to the place where it’s not every conversation is my responsibility.

[00:18:39] Micaela: They’re really not. I will also say that in one on one conversations when someone’s monopolizing the time, I am not a fan, and I’m not very good at handling it. if I’m on the phone with someone, and they’ve just talked at me for 45 minutes, and they haven’t yet asked me a question.

That’s hard to come back from for me, I start to feel quite invisible in the relationship if that happens more than once, I actually don’t tend to try to save them. I sort of I’m like, I wonder if they’re going to ask me a question. I want to sort of see if they will.

[00:19:10] Nina: You come at it with curiosity, how is this going to play out. Oh, tell me more about that.

[00:19:15] Micaela: And I say this explicitly to my students all the time. I’m in Portland, Maine, and here in Portland, I teach a, graduate school cohort, of audio and video documentarians, at something called the Salt Institute.

Every semester, I do a month long storytelling unit with them. It means that every semester I get sort of 7 to 12 terrified people who did not sign up to do this, who are going to do a public show and tell stories. and so I have to convince them. To do it with me and also be like, trust me, I can help you do this.

You’re going to be great. Nina, I over explain everything. I send them 12 paragraph emails with headlines and bold. If someone asks a short question, I’ll give them a 10 minute answer. And I’m so aware of it. and I’m. verbal about it. I say, I know I talk too much, but it is because I have this very deep fear of being misunderstood.

And the more we fear being misunderstood, especially those of us who are very verbal, the more we’re going to talk around it. We’re going to say four things where one would do because maybe four different people need four different ways of hearing it so that they really understand it. it starts with that. I don’t see that as a flaw. I see that as first draft, the first time I have to do it, I say that many things and then I see which one works and then I can say a little less the next semester

[00:20:39] Nina: I definitely have also been, uh, called an over explainer, and I know I am, and for all the same reasons. If what you said about being misunderstood, it’s like something in my brain goes off, If they just understood and what is between the understanding and the not understanding my words if only they could hear everything I had to say It’s sort of a false hope sometimes because you can say all you want if somebody doesn’t want to understand or really hear you, they’re not going to

[00:21:05] Micaela: to the point of something that you were saying that we were talking about a little earlier. I have started understanding the quality of my friendships by how much people accept that about me versus need something else for me. Right?

[00:21:18] Nina: That’s right. And it is true that not every person is for every person. These conversational, ways of being is one way. It’s funny. I haven’t really talked about that that much. I talk about chemistry a ton and different pieces that go into friendship, chemistry.

This is one of them. No person is necessarily right or wrong for being more conversational, more chatty. It’s just maybe not the right thing. Match for somebody which I think is a perfect segue to under talking and perhaps Because I lean more towards over talking or even over sharing.

I’m also hypersensitive to when someone is not sharing at all, I find it uncomfortable, and they may have good reasons for it, they struggle to open up. But at this point in my life, I think I’m not super interested in being the one to have to draw. out I need to be matched

I guess. I didn’t really mean to turn this into my own friendship therapy, but you know what? Sometimes I need to be that.

[00:22:14] Micaela: Absolutely. To me, there’s two ways of this person doesn’t share enough with me. One way is, this person is not forthcoming with me, and it makes me feel like I have to pull it out of them, as you say, and that’s just, It’s a lot of work.

It’s a lot of conversational work. The other one is the people who just don’t seem to want to be vulnerable in the same way that they want me to be vulnerable with them. They want me to complain about what’s going on.

They want to hear about my mental health. And I ask them how things are going and they say, great. That makes me feel kind of like a constant emergency. I’m not even given the opportunity to be useful to them, To be helpful. that kind of non sharing I’ll expect your vulnerability, but I’m not going to be vulnerable to you.

[00:22:57] Nina: That dynamic can get set pretty quickly. If you have a couple sessions, you know walks with the same person you’re doing all the sharing not because you’re Taking all the air time, which is a different issue. That’s why these are all really subtle things, but because the other person isn’t sharing.

So you’re kind of like, well, we still have 45 minutes left of this walk and I’m going to like take the responsibility and I’m going to do my part. If that happens a few times, it’s almost like a dynamic has been set. And now you’re the share, they’re the listener they don’t have to do the work. It is work to share, it’s work to listen, but it’s also work to open yourself up and be willing to talk about more than surface things like where you ran errands that day.

I know I keep bringing kids into it, but with four kids, I’m really in the thick of it and teens, what the kids are up to and what sports, you know, carpools you have to do right now. I mean, it can get really surface. And you can be talking about things that are in your life, but that aren’t, you know, it’s, we overuse, not just you and me, I mean, in general, I overuse the word deep.

Like, what do I mean when I say deep? When I, when a conversation is shallow, what, what does that mean to you? Like a deep conversation?

[00:24:00] Micaela: changed how I feel about that over time. it comes back to this conversation of which part of small talk is just to get us to the next step and which part of small talk is genuine connection. There is joy and connection and vulnerability in, I mean, I was talking to a girlfriend this morning.

Actually, I have a zoom call with a couple of girlfriends, every other week, uh, where we just sort of catch up. And we, talk about work a lot. but we also just sort of gab. we were talking about color analysis, color analysis is all over Tik TOK right now. And so all of us are being served these things of, are you a summer? Are you a spring? so the conversation started with is everyone else getting these color analysis videos. And it very quickly turned into, I think since 2020, I’ve been afraid to be perceived and I’d really like to start expressing myself through clothes again.

And so on the surface, it’s a conversation about TikTok we feel comfortable diving back into, I want to play with color. I want to feel. Fun from the neck down again. And so there’s an ability to sort of dip into depth and then come back out with people that you’re comfortable with, that you don’t have to just sink down into what’s the meaning of life, which is also a great conversation to have, you have almost a flexibility and a safety to be all the pieces of yourself.

[00:25:16] Nina: It would be too much to have to constantly, be on deep things. Oh, I love to talk about like TV and books. I’m in the middle of A Court of Thorns series. So that’s by the way, where I’m in on TikToK. I haven’t seen any color theory stuff. That’s another funny thing about TikToK, by the way, we are all in our own weird universe. I’m in fairy land with the court of thorn peeps.

[00:25:38] Micaela: So, I think in, answering your question about depth, I think there’s this, um, Flexibility is almost more interesting and intimate to me than depth or a surface, because to know that you can talk about surface stuff without being judged or without feeling judged, you can dip into sort of deeper, more personal pieces without feeling like, oh, now we’re stuck, at the bottom of the well or wherever we are.

I think there’s something very interesting there. And again, it comes back to that conversational dynamic chemistry of how much are we matching each other’s. energy. There’s this really interesting thing that happens, in many groups. there’s like a whole area of sociolinguistics that talks about the pressure to match the previous person’s, level of intimacy or vulnerability that we instinctively want to offer or feel pressure sometimes to offer a similar.

Level of vulnerability to give that person comfort I think there’s power in that. And I also think there’s pressure and, danger in that, that gets to oversharing too. If someone else has given you a whole bunch and you feel obligated to be like, okay, I guess I should probably talk about my, this, you know, now,

[00:26:51] Nina: Oh, that’s a hundred percent something I would do to make the other person comfortable. Because I’m able to, you know, I don’t have a hard time being vulnerable. So it’s an easy way to Be like, you’re safe with me. But sometimes you can find other ways to say that without offering an entire story in return.

You could even say those words. I mean, maybe not those words that could be kind of cheesy, but even just, I really appreciate you sharing that with me, you know, to show that you are listening, you heard, you, care about the story, you’re not rolling your eyes is there anything else about storytelling and friendship I have a lot of listeners who are in a stage of life where they want to make new friends. They’re divorced. their kids are out of the house now. they’ve moved, they’re in a place to, make some new friends, deepen friendships or anything they can be thinking of, as they’re meeting people with the work you do that we haven’t covered.

[00:27:37] Micaela: that’s a great question. There’s something that I really like to think of, related to this idea of how are we matched how do we navigate, seeing if we have enough in common or like want to be at the same level of intimacy right now that’s called tellability. It’s this concept that this researcher named Norik talks about. Which is the idea that in conversation, in any environment, in any context, and with anyone, there’s a different slice of our life That we sort of sense is appropriate to talk about and the upper bound of that slice is we don’t want to be too shocking and the lower bound is we don’t want to be too boring.

But what’s really interesting to me about this is this slice. changes dramatically depending on who you’re with and where you are. So when you’re with someone you’re really close with, there’s a really wide range of what you can talk about. You can tell them about the soup you made, but you can also be like, Hey, I got in a car accident and no one can know, please help me hide the evidence.

Right? Like you can be really, really shocking with someone who’s super close. whereas in a job interview or at a work dinner that range is really narrow. I think about that with my friendships, and I think about how, pushing those bounds a little bit as a way of finding more intimacy with the people that I care about, what’s okay to say, and what’s feeling okay, and what am I okay listening for, and being a listener to people, and being, a non judgmental listener to people is a way to build intimacy, like, all of, I think all of that goes into storytelling, and also goes into friendship building for listening.

[00:29:10] Nina: love your point that a big part of thinking about how we show up and what we say and what we don’t say equally to be thinking about how we listen is such a massive point. It’s, equally important, maybe even more so. Micaela, thank you so much. I think we’ve uncovered some things I need to bring to my therapist.

[00:29:26] Micaela: Same. Same.

[00:29:30] Nina: Good! Oh, I love that.

[00:29:31] Micaela: delight. This is such a delight. Thank you for having me.

[00:29:34] Nina: And I will have every way you can find Micaela in the show notes. As I say, at the end of every episode, I think Micaela would agree, cause it seems like friendship is really important to you. When our friendships are going well, we are happier all around.

[00:29:48] Micaela: Absolutely.

[00:29:49] Nina: Thanks. Bye.