[00:00:04] Nina: Welcome to Dear Nina, Conversations About Friendship. I’m your host, Nina Badzin. I’ve been writing about friendship since 2014. I lead creative writing groups in Minneapolis at a wonderful place called ModernWell, and I am a huge fan of today’s guest: Gretchen Rubin.

I have been a Gretchen Rubin fan since 2009. When I read The Happiness Project, when it first came out. It had that great cover. I love the concept of a one year project and I cannot believe this, but I get to talk to Gretchen Rubin in this episode. I am replaying our episode from about a year ago when the hard cover book of Life in Five Senses came out.

The paperback is out now. And so I found my favorite parts of the episode and put it together. I’m excited for you to hear it. I also want you to know that I’m really trying to focus some future episodes on some of what we touched on in this episode, which is adding more fun and play to our friendships.

What can we be doing for fun other than going out for dinner and going on a walk? Now I use those two examples, not cause there’s anything wrong with them, but those are the two things I tend to do is have some sort of lunch, Even just coffee or a walk. I really prefer a walk. I don’t know that I would call that fun per se, just a really great way for me to catch up with somebody, which is really important. I like to have intimate conversation with my friends, and I think walking is a great way either to get to know somebody or to just dive right in to a friend I already have.

However, I think there is a place for fun, and I’m not the greatest at that. I never have been. definitely. a more serious person. I think I could add a little more fun to my life. Gretchen and I, in this conversation, don’t necessarily go out of our way to use the word fun, but a lot of what we describe is trying to find ways to feel closer to friends. have experiences with friends that are maybe not what you would expect.

Like surprising ways to feel closer to friends and a lot of that is through some of the examples that she writes about in her book, which is not a book about friendship, but it is a book about relating to other people, friends, family, and even yourself through your five senses. So we actually spent a lot of time on sound, and that’s because my personal preferences are I can’t stand when things are noisy.

I’m very sensitive to certain sounds, and I’m drawn to certain sounds. And so we talk about which ones and why and what that has to do with friendship. Then we talked a lot about touch because touch is my most neglected sense, which I learned by taking a quiz on Gretchen’s website, which will be in the show notes.

You can see what your most neglected senses and the reason that’s important to know is because the sense that you pay the least attention to or maybe have the most areas that annoy you or something are areas where maybe you could be having more fun if you had a different mindset about it.

We also spend just a little bit of time on her previous book, one of her previous books, she’s written several books called The Four Tendencies. Concepts from the four tendencies has really become pretty mainstream. A lot of people talk about being an upholder or an obliger, I talked to her about my husband, Bryan, and how he is very much an upholder and a gift he gives to me every year on my birthday that helps me.

[00:03:15] Nina: I’m an obliger really meet my goals throughout the year. There’s a lot more we talk about. And to just let you know about the fun thing. One last thing on my Facebook group, Dear Nina: The Group. You can look it up on Facebook. We are starting to have conversations in there about what people do for fun with their friends. And I’d love to hear your examples. So feel free to join us there in that group. Anytime it’s a private group, dear Nina, the group, that is all I have for you. Welcome to Gretchen Rubin.

So it is with a lot of excitement and a lot of freaking out that I can now say, hi, Gretchen Rubin. Welcome to Dear Nina

[00:03:48] Gretchen: Well, thank you so much for having me. I’m very happy to be talking to you today.

[00:03:53] Nina: It’s surreal to talk to someone you followed for so long. And I just connect with your book a lot. I had to tell you all your books have made a huge impact on how I think about myself, about my family, about my friends, and I know an organizing theme of your work is happiness, obviously, which led to studying habits.

It’s an order and calm and now exploring the world with each of our senses. And I see in all of your writing and in your podcast with Elizabeth, that you’re encouraging people to learn about themselves, but to also realize every one of us is different. So we should have more patience and more compassion for others. Does that sound accurate?

[00:04:27] Gretchen: No, absolutely. And it’s funny because it goes both ways because I think, you know, we need to have more compassion and understanding for other people, how they might be different. Because maybe I can get up and go for a run before work and that’s how I get it done. and so to understand, well, maybe that’s not going to work for you, but it’s also to show more compassion for ourselves because I talked to a lot of people who are like, nobody else is saying that this sweatshirt is too scratchy to wear. what’s wrong with me. And instead of just saying What’s true for one person isn’t necessarily true for another person. And what makes me happy may not be the same thing that makes you happy. And just Understanding ourselves and then understanding that we might be different from other people or like, people, is really important to keep in mind.

[00:05:06] Nina: This comes up so much in friendship apart from senses, but the same idea I think of texting is a huge one that comes up. I take a lot of anonymous letters. I’ve been doing that since 2014 and I would say texting comes up a ton.So, some version of my friend will only text. My friend won’t talk on the phone or my other way around but there’s neither is right or wrong. It’s kind of the same idea. It’s just a different way of being.

[00:05:29] Gretchen: I think that’s really important to keep in mind because I think what happens for a lot of people is they want to argue about who’s right. I’m right. Here’s the research studies say, you should do it my way. you know, or somebody else is saying that to us, we kind of like to argue about who’s right.

Who’s wrong. Instead of saying, it’s just preferences for me, I like email because I don’t like texting with my thumbs, but I don’t like phone calls either. but I’m getting ready to go to my college reunion , and my two college roommates, they just want to text.

And it’s kind of driving me bonkers because I would rather do this by email. It’s not that they’re right and I’m wrong, sometimes you just have to say, well, there’s two of them and one of me and their preferences are going to prevail. So let’s work it out on that basis instead of arguing about who’s right.

[00:06:11] Nina: and like you said, two of them, one of you, or sometimes someone feels really strongly and that’s, that time you give it up. That time And every time you say, okay, fine, we’ll

[00:06:19] Gretchen: is always a negotiation. It’s always something to be figured out. But when somebody says I’m right, then they’re saying I should objectively win. And that’s very different from saying let’s figure out how to like, Deal with these circumstances in the way that’s best for everyone because you’re exactly right. Sometimes you’re like, you know what? I don’t care. You care a lot. Let’s do it your way. That’s fine. But that’s different from saying I’m wrong. You’re right. And therefore you win the argument.

[00:06:41] Nina: I’m laughing about the email one because I also prefer email. I’ve also been planning a summer trip, not a college reunion, but with college friends. And there’s three of us. It’s exactly the same. And I keep emailing and then one of them teasing me and she’s like, Nina, are we, 70? Why are we on email? And I’m like, wait, when did email become. you know, we’re in our late forties.

[00:06:58] Gretchen: Email is so much better

[00:07:00] Nina: yes, thank you.

[00:07:02] Gretchen: Yes.

[00:07:02] Nina: there’s two of them. So we’ve been doing it on

[00:07:04] Gretchen: No, but we’re right. See, there you go. We want to say we’re right. Here’s all the reasons why we’re right. And they’re, they’re like, but we don’t want to do it.

[00:07:11] Nina: Yes. Okay. Well, let’s get to the book. What inspired this newest project?

[00:07:15] Gretchen: So it was a very inconspicuous moment of my life. I had an appointment at the eye doctor. Be sure to come back for your regular checkup because as you know, you’re at greater risk for losing your vision.

And I was like, wait, what are you talking about? I don’t know anything like that. He said, Oh, yeah, you’re very severely nearsighted. That means you’re more at risk for getting a detached retina. And if that happens, it can affect your vision. So we would want to catch it right away. And the fact is I have a friend who had just lost some of his vision to a detached retina.

So that felt like a very real possibility So I walk out on the street, I’m getting ready to walk home. I live in New York city, so it’s getting ready to walk home in shock. one of the things I realized is, I mean, and of course I know that I could have a rich, meaningful life, even if I lost one of my senses.

And I know that we could lose anything at any time, obviously we all intellectually know that. But sometimes it’s when we lose something or we fear we might lose it, that we really become aware of it. And I was thinking, here I am. I didn’t notice one thing about my sense of sight on my way over here.

I was completely stuck in my head. I didn’t see one thing. And here I am feeling overwhelmed by the prospect of losing my sense of sight. every knob in my brain got jammed up to 11 and I could see everything with perfect clarity. I could hear everything with perfect clarity.

I could smell every smell and New York city is very smelly. Everything just was rushing through me. I was that way the whole way I walked home for like 20 minutes. I was in this sort of transcendent, almost psychedelic state of perfect sensory awareness. , you know, I’ve been studying happiness for such a long time. I had begun to realize that something was missing. There was some piece, some puzzle piece had not been put into place. And this showed me it was my five senses that this was the way I could connect to the world.

To myself and to other people as you say a huge role the senses and helping us to connect with other people and I just became Incredibly excited about how I could harness my five senses to do those things.

[00:09:19] Nina: As I was reading the book, I found myself getting excited with you. Like as you were discovering each sense, it’s like I, of course, was connecting to it, human nature, as you say, is a huge piece of your work and we can all connect to. We all have, at different degrees, like you said, we could lose a sense, you could be born without a sense, things dull as you get older, but to some degree we can identify with most of them.

This line really spoke to me. You said, my environment felt oversaturated and processed, but also virtual and flattened. I wanted to make direct contact. I mean, who cannot relate to that with the way our world is so much on the screen. that is a part of the friendship puzzle too, I think there are real friendships to be made virtually.

Of course, at this point, I mean, in life, we’re on it so much. There’s kind of no denying that, what you said, those words, like the flattened, the oversaturated, even, you know, the process, this is, this for every sense, food, everything. Gosh, I was like, yes, that is right.

[00:10:10] Gretchen: Yeah. And I think that’s what gives us this hunger to connect and why, if anything is described as immersive, people are like, oh my gosh, I want to do it. It’s because I think we want to bring ourselves back into balance. we want to have that feeling. Cause on the one hand, it’s too much. On the other hand, it’s not enough. I think that there is this craving to really, really connect. I have somebody that I have connected with. Yeah. virtually for years and we finally met each other in person.

It was one of those things where it’s like, I can’t believe we haven’t met real life in person, but we definitely knew it. both of us realized immediately that we had never actually been in each other’s physical presence and it did change my perception of her, as it always does, they’re taller than you think, or shorter than you think, your feeling of someone is affected by their actual physical presence.

[00:10:50] Nina: You wrote, through my senses, I hope to find new ways to build connections with the people I loved. And I think it’s through that line and we can jump into each sense. I know normally you would start with sight. The book starts with sight I actually want to start with sound I have such a strong relationship to sound both positive and negative. It probably makes sense for people that they feel strongly in both directions on a certain sense.

For me, the negative is something you wrote about I cannot deal with a loud restaurant the relief I feel when I leave a loud restaurant is palpable I mean, I just feel my whole body relax. And we were out to dinner a couple weeks ago with just one other couple and usually two with two is great. And this was great This was a quiet restaurant I commented. Oh so nice This restaurant is so quiet my friend’s husband said, Nina, We are not old enough to be commenting on sound in restaurants. I mean, I don’t, I felt that in my 20s.

[00:11:41] Gretchen: Well it’s very interesting you mention that especially with restaurants. Um, sense of sound. of taste is diminished when you’re in a loud environment. So you’re actually enjoying your food less, but you’re hurried up. If you’re in a store, a lot of times they play music that’s slow because we tend to move in rhythm with what we’re hearing.

They want you to slow down because the store knows that the longer you’re in a store, the more you’re likely to buy. And so they want you to linger. , and I’m with you. I mean, I remember even being a teenager and being like, I don’t like this pounding music, we’ll start the chain of quiet restaurant and you and I will go.

[00:12:32] Nina: Quiet restaurant and emails for communications. Like so far,

[00:12:36] Gretchen: Okay. We sound like a lot of fun. Nina,

[00:12:39] Nina: I, well that’s why I probably connect to you a

[00:12:41] Gretchen: with us as we email in a silent restaurant.

[00:12:45] Nina: So another reason sound I think is such a big one for friendship is listening. you wrote a beautiful, manifesto about listening. And I loved your point about silent and listening being just the same word

[00:12:57] Gretchen: Yes. I thought I might be the first person who would notice that you just rearranged the letters of silent.

[00:13:02] Nina: I’ve never seen that. I’ve never seen anybody

[00:13:05] Gretchen: not the first sadly, but I know I wish I could claim that.

[00:13:09] Nina: Well I learned it from you. So I’m going to say Gretchen Rubin

[00:13:11] Gretchen: Yeah, that’s good. you know, one of the things that’s most important that we do with our sense of hearing is to listen to other people.

And listening sounds very passive and easy. Yeah. You’re just sitting there listening, but it’s actually very taxing. It’s a very active. for me, I find that if something’s so difficult or, I really want to get it right. I tried to write a manifesto cause that helps me crystallize my thinking and kind of really distill. And so I wrote a manifesto for listening to help me improve my own listening.

[00:13:36] Nina: Can you share a couple of things that you think would be the most helpful for friends?

[00:13:40] Gretchen: if let’s say you’re in a party environment. I think 1 thing that’s very easy to do is you sort of keep yourself half turned away from somebody. So you’re sort of half in the conversation half looking around and that does not signal to someone that you’re listening.

So if you’re listening to somebody, if you can, you want to turn your body to face them. So your shoulders and their shoulders are parallel really look at them. That shows you, you have my attention. if they’re talking to you, put down your phone, put down your book, put down the newspaper, put down the remote control, whatever, show that somebody has your intention.

There’s interesting research now showing that if a phone is visible, even if it’s face down, this is what I would do is I would have my phone up and I would, very deliberately put it face down, meaning like I’m not going to look at it, but people seem distracted even by the physical presence of a phone.

So you want to put your, phone away so no one can see it. That also signals you have my attention. one of my personal, challenges is that if things start to get. Weighty, if people start to confide things, if it gets difficult, if it gets fraught without realizing it, I would often.

Before I even knew what I was doing, I would redirect the conversation on to safer ground. I really had to, let awkward pauses fall. Listen for what’s not being said. If someone keeps returning to a subject, allow the subject to come up. Don’t keep redirecting them. And then my own personal thing, this is like my quirk because I love to read. Often with somebody would start saying something like, Oh, you know, I’m really worried because my, son is having, a lot of social problems at school. I would immediately jump in like, Oh, there’s an amazing book you should read. I know just the book for you. Here’s the book. Here’s why it’s so great.

this is me getting the conversation onto safer ground. Now we’re talking about a book recommendation instead of talking about you and your worry and your son and like the pain of that, I can email my friend later with all my reading recommendations because I do think that they’re so helpful, but that’s not what we’re doing right now. Right now. I am listening to somebody talk about something that they want to get off their chest. it’s

[00:15:32] Nina: point about when somebody comes back to the same subject. I have felt myself do that, actually. I, myself, am like, clearly do want to talk about something. And yeah, the other person. Person changes the subject and then I bring it up again. And I’ve even had someone say to me, okay, you keep bringing that up.

Maybe I hadn’t worded it that way, but I guess what I’m trying to do is Yes. Well, again, I think this is one of the challenges, which is listen for what’s not being said listen for the cues that, if somebody keeps returning to a subject, then allow it to come up, even if you’re kind of bored by it or not that interested. one of the things is people love to talk about their trips.

[00:16:09] Gretchen: I’m not somebody who loves to hear other people talk about their trips, but. I’ll tell you what friends like to tell friends about their trips. So that’s part of the duty of a friend is tell me about your amazing trip to Berlin. Okay. You know, and then you usually do get more interested and then sometimes people want to avoid something.

And so you’re like, Oh, have you guys still been looking for a new house? suddenly the conversations moved away. Don’t keep persisting just because I’m curious, but say, but for whatever reason, my friend has sent me A clue maybe this is a subject that’s feeling sensitive or she doesn’t want to get into it right now Let’s move on and I can just notice that.

[00:16:42] Nina: Yes. I still got, you brought that up. I’ve actually done entire episodes, a couple of them just about that. I had my husband as the guest cause my husband, I think is an absolute. Genius at changing the subject in a way that’s not awkward. I feel like I get very awkward to the point where I almost have to be like, I don’t want to talk about that. Which if you ever have to say that, that’s an uncomfortable, please don’t make me have to say that I want everyone to just listen for what’s not being said, which is, I don’t want to talk about it.

[00:17:10] Gretchen: here’s another thing on that line that we were, that we’ve talked about on the happier podcast. that if you have something that’s very difficult to talk about, Part of what’s hard is coming up with the words over and over again. If it’s a sensitive subject, like my husband and I were getting a divorce, whatever. instead of making it up every time and struggling through that conversation where somebody is responding to you and maybe they’re asking questions you don’t want to answer and like getting into this whole push and pull, have your talking points, really sit down and write exactly what you say.

My friend said, you know, so and so and so and so and I have agreed to get a divorce. It wasn’t my idea and my initiative, but now that it’s underway, I realized that it’s the best thing for both of us. Our children know, and, things are moving forward. and she said it in a way and like, there will be no more questions from the audience, And so people had the information and they needed to know to move forward as friends. They were reassured they got the message.

She’s not going to talk about this right now. And so she said like she had to go to a big holiday party and it just gave her so much confidence to know that people would be asking questions out of love, but. It’s too exhausting to reframe your answer over and over. And then like, Oh, I said the wrong thing. Or it takes so much, it just takes a lot to this way. She was like a politician with a stump speech, same thing every time. And it just made it so much easier for her. And then also as people who are wanting to listen, it’s very clear.

You’ve given me the information and now I know that you don’t want to talk about it anymore. this is going to help us be good friends to each other. I’m not going to push you. we kind of know where we stand.

[00:18:36] Nina: really brilliant because part of friendship is sharing information that shares just enough to, like you said, to let the person know, I know that you care about me. Here’s what you probably are going to ask. I’m going

[00:18:46] Gretchen: also says like, and I don’t want to talk about it anymore because of course my friend had a few people to whom she was talking for hours a night, I’m not doing that at this holiday party. You are not that person. And That is what needs to happen. And then also, yeah.

And then it was like, and it’s okay for us to now talk about other things. you don’t have to feel like you’re insensitive by mentioning, the amazing decorations, because it’s like, I’ve sent you the signal now we’re moving on. And so again, it’s just a good, it’s helping you draw closer with other people by understanding where boundaries are and how to communicate in a way that feels right for both people. Cause a lot of times you’re like, I just want to do the right thing, but I’m not sure what the right thing is.

[00:19:21] Nina: One other sound thing, the last one we’ll talk about in this, category because we have so many other categories is I absolutely miss, and this is sort of a nostalgia thing too, making mixtapes, like real tapes. the mixtape, I thought about this after I read the book, covers at least three categories. I actually think it’s sight. I mean, just make, think the care that

[00:19:40] Gretchen: oh, oh, yeah, you would like yes. This is such a great point I never thought of this the

[00:19:47] Nina: And there’s a third one. There’s a third one and it’s touch, which is funny because touch, by the way, I took the quiz and we’ll talk about the quiz later and where people can find it.

But I took the senses quiz to help you know your least, uh, your neglect. I’m like, what was the good? That’s a good word Your most neglected sense. Mine was touch, which I’m not surprised about. We’ll get to later. But, The mixtape had a very satisfying touch to it. if you had a collection of them, there was something about putting them away and there was something about holding it both as the giver and the receiver receiving a mixtape.

How satisfying

[00:20:19] Gretchen: 100%. This is an excellent, excellent point. no, and you know what? And this is the thing that I find even as gift giving generally, there’s so many things that are virtual. So it’s well, what do you actually give to somebody? If I want to wrap something up and hand it to you in a gift bag. we did this thing, on the happier podcast, it was called gift of podcast where somebody could print out a sheet tie it up with a ribbon. It’s like, I’m giving you the gift of the podcast, dear Nina, because I know that you love the subject of friendship and I think you would love this podcast.

So you could actually give someone a podcast because. A podcast, you already have it, you have it for free. It’s in your phone. nobody needs to hand you anything. And yet that doesn’t feel satisfying as a gift exchange. And the same thing with music. what am I going to give you? a Spotify gift card or something. I mean, it’s the tangibility of things and the ability to decorate them. I still have the mixtapes, it’s like these artifacts of my friend’s handwriting and It’s funny because people talk about vinyl coming back.

I don’t care about vinyl, but the mixtape how do we recreate that for the modern age? This is our bazillion dollar idea. Nina. How what is the modern way to replicate all the many things that are satisfying about the mixtape?

[00:21:21] Nina: In Maggie Smith’s memoir, you can make this place beautiful. She wrote about her daughter making her a playlist and then continuing to add to it. So that definitely speaks to the sound piece of what’s satisfying and giving someone music, but it doesn’t do the thing that we’re going to invent, Yes. also the sight, also the feel.

[00:21:39] Gretchen: Right. Because I would say, if I were that mother, I would love to have something that I could put on a shelf that would remind me of my daughter’s love and care that I could look at. I would love to have something in my daughter’s handwriting, the playlist is beautiful and the music is beautiful and the care and consideration that it shows is beautiful, but there’s something about being able to look at something and hold something and give something and receive something that has special power.

[00:22:03] Nina: And there’s one other friendship activity that connects a lot of the senses and I’m just thinking of now because we were talking about the mixtape and the feel of it in my hand another similar feel and it’s funny Like I said, I told you touch was my most neglected I play mahjong with friends and not as often as I would like to but I do play and I know how to play and I love it.

I love what it does to my brain forcing me to really think I love being with friends that we talk There’s a certain point where it gets quiet if you’re not quiet at a certain point unless you are an absolute master I mean, you cannot figure out what hand you’re playing but I actually also like the feel of the tile I find it satisfying but I think I find it satisfying the same reason I found a mixtape satisfying to hold which is that I knew that it was given to me or I was giving it to somebody and there was love attached to it.

The Maj tiles. It’s not like there’s anything satisfying on their own. It’s just that I connect it to something I enjoy doing. Therefore, I like the touch of it.

[00:22:55] Gretchen: on the happier podcast, my co host is my sister, Elizabeth, and she plays mahjong And she said exactly the same thing. she said, it’s like dominoes or puzzles where there’s something very satisfying about the tiles and the clicking and the sound and just the, manipulation of something is very, very satisfying and you’re right though.

It’s like a way to connect. But again, it’s like, we’re connecting with friends, but we’re also activating our senses. our senses are involved. It’s not the same thing as just sitting there talking or just sitting there playing a game. in our heads or on a screen where we might be looking at something and responding, the role of hands, the hand is the second brain and having our hands involved takes something to a different level.

And so if you’re doing something like that with your friends, it’s just going to be a very exciting way to engage.

[00:23:39] Nina: And it’s interesting about the sound of it, the clicking and like what your sister said. If I were not sitting at the table, let’s say I was at a restaurant and the table next to me was playing Maj, I would probably find that annoying. Just like when I play tennis and I hear the people playing pickleball, it sends me into a rage. But if I were the one playing

[00:23:53] Gretchen: Yeah. Well, that’s one of the funny things about sound. If you’re making it, if you’re controlling it, it doesn’t seem bothersome at all. like drumming your fingers or you’re running a blender or whatever, but if other people are making that sound, it’s quite annoying.

[00:24:05] Nina: Oh, so annoying. I was an English teacher before I, had my first kid and, and high school English teacher. I could hear someone clicking a pen three rooms away, I swear, but if I’m clicking a pen, is that no, it’s very calming. Yeah. You’re like, oh, it’s a very satisfying noise. No, that’s a great example. Click, click, click, click.

Oh, it’s horrible. Okay, I’m going to move us on to touch. I had a funny experience with touch on the podcast, which is that I had Will Schwalbe on who I know was on your podcast too. And he talks about. in the book, which I brought up on the episode, we connected right away on the fact that I’m also not a big hugger. And then after I mentioned it on the show, I had lots of people say to me, real friends in my life, Oh, I’m so sorry.

I didn’t realize you’re not a hugger. Like they felt bad that maybe they’d invaded my privacy. It’s not that I don’t like a hug, it’s I’m so awkward about it. And I think cause I didn’t grow up in a house of huggers. I don’t know who starts the hug, like, I know it, but I don’t know. Like when I’m in the moment, wait, am I hugging my parents? I’m more like kiss on the cheek people, which is so also so awkward. I,

[00:25:01] Gretchen: Okay, but let me ask you this. How do you feel like about petting a cat or dog?

[00:25:04] Nina: I’m really not an animal person. I grew up with animals and I hated them,

[00:25:08] Gretchen: it’s funny because I did it on my book tour for life in five senses. I did an interview with somebody who said cause she had taken the quiz. We’ll talk about the quiz. She got touch as her most neglected. And I asked her that. And it’s like, if you don’t like hugging. and you don’t like petting a cat or dog, then I think, yes, I would say that you are correct. touch is probably your most neglected sense, because it’s not something that you are turning to for. Adventure, comfort, or pleasure. even people who are not huggers, a lot of them really do like, touching cats or dogs, or, you know, they love beautiful, fabric, So if anybody wants to know their neglected sense, go to GretchenRubin.com slash quiz. and it will tell you your neglected sense.

And this is why it matters. This is why I’m interested that touches your most neglected sense. With our most appreciated sense. We’re already enjoying it. We have adventures. we try to learn, we swap recommendations. We reminisce with our friends.

We turn to it for comfort or pleasure or solace with their neglected sense. we don’t seek out new adventures. We don’t use it to connect with friends. We don’t reminisce. We don’t use it to evoke memories. And as a consequence, it’s a great thing to know, because this is where you have low hanging fruit.

If you already love music and listening and hearing and silence, you’re probably doing a lot of stuff related to that. But if it’s your neglected sense, well, there’s probably a lot that you could do. So It’s a helpful thing to know about yourself. if you know that your most neglected sense is touch, you can think about, okay.

given my own nature and the reality of what I like and don’t like, are there ways for me to think about how I might get more pleasure from the sense of touch? So maybe I don’t like hugging people and I don’t like cats or dogs and I’m not an animal person. But are there beautiful fabrics that I love to touch?

if I’m near the ocean, do I like to run the sand through my fingers or like touch the ocean with my hands? Are there more ways for me to have pleasure from the sense of touch that maybe I’ve just been overlooking because I just am not in the habit of turning to that sense?

[00:26:59] Nina: Well, I’m going to push myself. I like your motto of be Gretchen, but also push yourself. that is a good thing to keep in mind that we want to like accept ourselves for who we are, but also push ourselves a bit. I’m going to push myself actually to do the awkward thing, which is to hug my friends more and initiate it.

I hug my kids all the time. I hug my husband. It’s like, it’s not that I. Cannot stand to be touched. It’s not that it’s more that social awkwardness of knowing who goes first.

[00:27:22] Gretchen: maybe you’re just like, I always go first, and so the decision fatigue is gone.

[00:27:26] Nina: Yes, I’m just gonna do it watch out guys There you go. Let do it to go for it. what I’ve heard from a lot of people now that, tens of thousands of people have taken the quiz some people say, I purposely neglect my sense of smell because I get migraines and they’re triggered if I smell artificial candles and things like that.

[00:27:41] Gretchen: So I really have turned away. But then somebody was saying, well, that doesn’t happen with the smells of nature. So even though I’m not going to like be smelling a candle or a sachet, I can try to, if I’m in a park, really tune into the smell of the plants and the smell of the earth you know, you can think about how, might I do this in the way that’s right for me and, and is, taking into account the truth about me

[00:28:04] Nina: Yeah, then don’t push it. Okay, let’s move on to taste. That’s a huge one. And I, relate to that. And I host a lot of Shabbat dinners. And I loved your, piece with your mother in law, like going with her to, taste the nostalgic foods from her childhood. I thought that was like just a really sweet moment.

I think for me making the food, which is not always enjoyable on its own, but it’s enjoyable only in that I know I’m going to be sharing it. But your point about the taste and nostalgia, I think you’ll appreciate that. A good friend of mine who’s a listener of yours as well and a reader of yours, her name’s Rebecca Jacobs. She came to your event at Sidwell Friends after reading your book, she sent to her college friend a text that said send me four foods that you remember from college.

And then they just had like a lot of fun texting back and forth about it, which I think is so in the spirit, I mean, I know you encourage that in the book, can you talk a little bit about that, the nostalgia connection? Yeah.

[00:28:55] Gretchen: and the senses are sort of famous for this. Right? And there’s a word for that Prustian memories. Prustian memories are strong memories that are inspired or, kind of unleashed by a strong sensory moment and this takes its, name from Proust who very famously, took a bite of a Madeleine cookie dipped in lime tea and it, unleashed all these memories of the past for him.

So it is something that we can really dive into. and it can be fun because it can make us feel more connected to ourselves in our own past, but it’s also a great way to connect with other people because reminiscing about sense experiences, everything comes back, but everything associated with it.

If I were going to do that with my college roommates, I would say something like that really sugary sangria that we would drink at Viva’s restaurant. And then it was like, Oh my gosh, we would go there every weekend. We would try to eat as many chips as we possibly could. was always like before the big party, we would go there.

There was a certain group of people that would come. the taste memory carries with it memories of the whole evening, the whole way we did it. Or if you said to me a Greek salad with feta cheese. Oh my gosh, I remember that restaurant.

I remember the people we went, I remember the conversations we had. I remember we’re crowding into the booth. sometimes you can try it. You can taste it and have those memories, but sometimes you don’t even need to taste it. You can just talk about it. And it is so fun to connect with other people through these memories because they’ll remember things you don’t remember.

So it’s very exciting when you reclaim some whole new thing you forgot about. it’s a great conversation starter. If there’s somebody where you kind of don’t know what to talk about, it’s a great thing. people bring to it their own experiences.

[00:30:31] Nina: Will you talk a little bit about the taste party? Because that’s something people could really do.

[00:30:35] Gretchen: fun. Okay. Cause if you, if you don’t want to like throw a dinner party, you love to cook for other people, Nina, but I do not like to do that. and I feel kind of intimidated by the idea of a dinner party. I had done this thing called flavor university, where you go for two days and like learn all about flavor.

The thing that we did that I enjoyed the most in that little adventure was we would do taste comparisons. So they had us taste. six varieties of milk. cream half and half whole milk, 2 percent skim milk, oat milk, soy. Cause you never just taste two things in comparison and really registered the differences.

I thought this was fascinating. My husband and I had some friends over we tested varieties of apples. potato chips and chocolate and we would just talk about how do you rank them? I picked three of the top most popular varieties of apples plus granny smith and the funny thing is I was like Gala, Fuji, they’re the same.

No, they’re totally different. And people had so much fun, we got into these really big debates some people care about refreshing this and some people love sour and some people are like me and have like really bonkers sweet tooth and nothing can be too sweet.

I gave them a little taste of ketchup because ketchup is magic. It has all five of the big five, tastes. Sweet, sour, salty, bitter, and umami. and it was just fun. Like we all started reminiscing. We started talking about what were the foods that you can only get in my hometown. No place in the world makes this the way my hometown does. talking about our childhood, talking about, just a lot of experiences that we’ve had. I felt like I was getting this insight into these old friends, in a whole new way.

And it was intimate. And I think this would work if you were trying to do it with work friends or something like that too, because it was intimate without being revealing in a way that might feel too, unsettling for people because you want to create a warm feeling of connection, but sometimes you want people to be able to stay private.

Like you don’t want to push them to be vulnerable if they’re not ready, but this is what we’re laughing, we’re talking, we’re having fun, we’re reminiscing, It’s nothing that anybody is going to feel like they’re exposed in a way that they don’t want to be.

[00:32:33] Nina: really, everyone can participate as much or as little as they would want. I just love that idea. I hope people will, take idea and try it. I think that’s such a good one.

[00:32:41] Gretchen: my parents did this, they were at a dinner party where they had five different kinds of vanilla ice cream. And it was like, can we rank them from like most expensive to cheapest? And I thought that was really funny. Like, do you get what you pay for? Let’s see.

[00:32:53] Nina: That’s a great idea. I probably could personally at any time tell anybody which coffee ice creams are the best,

[00:33:00] Gretchen: There you go. But see, that would be really interesting right. Do people agree with you? no, this one’s too creamy. Or this one’s got too much bitterness. So this one’s overly, I mean, what a fun thing to do.

[00:33:10] Nina: my husband was trying to recreate the peanut butter and jelly from his youth that he remembered a very particular babysitter making, but it was at the babysitter’s house because otherwise he would just ask his mom, what kind of peanut butter and what kind of jelly did you buy?

He couldn’t remember. So on a group trip, we went away with a bunch of couples, but it was just a drive away, up North Minnesota. And he brought, he knew it was Wonder Bread, which by the way, we couldn’t really find. He had to get it at some far flung Walmart. They just didn’t have Wonder Bread at the regular grocery stores anyway, but he knew it was Wonder Bread.

and then he got three different kinds of peanut butter, three different kinds of jam. but he knew it was strawberry, And he made little tiny squares of every combination enough for everybody. And he had everybody rank them. This is not that long ago. It’s a couple of years ago. It was a

[00:33:54] Gretchen: This is so fun. And did he find his lost,

[00:33:58] Nina: he thinks so. He thinks he did. And I, of course, can’t remember the brand, but he, a very meticulous person. You would really appreciate him. He kept like a whole chart.

[00:34:06] Gretchen: But here are two, here are two things I would say though. One is his sense of smell and therefore his sense of taste might be affected as being older. So it might taste different cause he’s older. But also because, well, I don’t know if this would be true of something like jelly, but a lot of vegetables and fruits taste different than they , they did when we were young because of breeding.

And so if you’re like, Oh, things don’t taste the way that I did when I was little, it’s like, yeah, you’re right. They don’t, tomatoes don’t taste the way they did when you were little because they’ve changed over time. And so sometimes it might be, it’s not just memory and brands. It might be that he’s changed or, maybe the ingredients even of a brand might have changed over time.

[00:34:41] Nina: Oh, it’s true, even the bread.

[00:34:43] Gretchen: Even though I bet the bread is made very differently now than it was 25 years ago, right? people just have a lot of different ideas. Even something like Wonder Bread that feels very standardized. I bet it’s different.

[00:34:52] Nina: Yeah, probably as you know, another listening thing, I think you would appreciate again about Bryan. Bryan, you’re like a star today. He listens to every episode

[00:34:59] Gretchen: Bryan.

[00:34:59] Nina: he’s a good guy for my birthday. We go to a coffee shop every year some years were harder than others. You know, we have four kids now. It’s like, we can leave them alone all the time, but we were a little, we would like get a babysitter and go to do this where I would just talk about my year, the goals that I achieved, didn’t achieve. Why did I not achieve them? Let’s think about it. I would just talk, talk. He would take notes the entire time.

And he had several pieces of paper. He still does it. I don’t need to say it in the past tense. It’s every year he takes notes, writes everything I say. sorts it out in his brain while he’s writing it and then presents me at the end of the hour With you know, what am I gonna work on for the next year?

My birthday is December 30th so it’s very it works with like the year is so we it just it speaks to us this way Then that’s kind of what I focus on the next year. to used to be like maybe I’m gonna try to write 20, 000 words Every certain kind of, you know, when I was trying to write more now, it’s more podcast based, but exercise everything, anything I’m working on.

He just is like, okay, this is what you’re going to do this year. Because it’s based on having listened to what didn’t work for me the year before. What, what did work.

[00:36:01] Gretchen: Wait. Okay. I have so many, I have so many questions. So was this his idea or or your idea?

[00:36:06] Nina: It was probably a combination cause he’s just a very organized person. He is very good at keeping his own goals. So he keeps his own. Quarterly, half yearly, and yearly goals. And so he keeps a little sticky note. He gets it down to a sticky, I’m talking a tiny sticky note. He keeps quarterly goals in his closet,

and he checks them off as the quarter goes on and then as the half year. And I just had admired that so much. We didn’t get it that detailed for me. Mine are more yearly. So it was probably me asking him, but it was cause I could see. That he was so good at it. And if one of our kids gets on his list, this is bad news. Like if you’re one of our kids and you’re on his quarterly list of goals, this is

[00:36:44] Gretchen: Okay.

[00:36:45] Nina: It means something’s getting addressed.

[00:36:47] Gretchen: this is going to be like a total non sequitur to another book that I wrote about the four tendencies. it’s a polder question or obliged to rebel. It sounds like your husband is an upholder. I would guess just based on that. If anybody wants to know about a polder rebels, go to GretchenRubin.com slash quiz, and you can find out what you are. But this is, I have to say, this is classic upholder behavior, but it’s lovely that he’s found a way to turn that energy to you in a way that makes you feel like you have an audience. Somebody’s really thinking about you and trying to help you sort through because sometimes like in our own, get so confused by the weeds.

We can’t see the big picture. That’s a beautiful tradition. I love that

[00:37:26] Nina: I think so too, and I’m an obliger. So it works for me to have a

list to work off of

[00:37:32] Gretchen: he’s paying attention.

[00:37:33] Nina: yeah, that he’ll ask me the next year and not that it was like.

[00:37:36] Gretchen: did that work out? Yeah,

[00:37:37] Nina: Okay. So smell is one that I found, I was surprised it wasn’t my most neglected on the quiz because I really feel like I scored that low on all the questions.

The only time I can remember smell and friendship being a connection is in middle school, it was a really big deal to buy perfume when we all went to Benetton and we all bought colors. And that was colors was the name of the perfume. It was a. Huge deal to have perfume. And I feel like this went on for a couple of years and then it was just not a

[00:38:04] Gretchen: yeah, yeah, well, having a signature scent, if you have a signature scent, that can be like a really important thing. And like, if a friend has a signature scent to really know about it. Well, you know, this is one of these things where it’s kind of illicit to talk about other people’s smells. But we’re very aware of other people’s smells. And then it’s just funny, like the senses that you associate with your friends. I live in an apartment building in New York city and a friend of mine walked in and she said to me thoughtfully, the lobby of your building has a very distinctive smell. It’s not a bad smell and it’s not a good smell.

It’s just very distinctive. And I was like, okay, huh? All right. You’re right. This was the smell she associated with me. And it was just funny to hear her comments on it. Cause a lot of times we don’t really comment on smells that much.

[00:38:47] Nina: Distinctive’s a good word. it is what it is. We, we can identify it, but yeah, it’s not good or bad. It just has a very

[00:38:53] Gretchen: But here’s the thing, and maybe you’ve experienced this at a friend’s house. you’re like, I don’t know why my friend lets her house smell like cats or like, Oh, my friend’s house, that air freshener. they really need turn that down. So we can’t smell our home the way a guest smells it.

And because of something called odor fatigue, if something is a very, very, very familiar scent. the brain will just eliminate it because the brain is looking for change because change could mean opportunity or danger. if your house smells so much like air freshener, you might not smell smoke.

So the brain is like, okay, we don’t need the air freshener. Cue. It just goes away. But to me, as a friend who only comes to your house every once in a while, I smell it very strongly. And that’s why, you know, sometimes you go to a place and you’re really surprised that the people who live there put up with it. They simply do not smell it. Now, if they went away for a month and came back, yeah, then they would smell.

[00:39:41] Nina: let’s move on to sight. Last but certainly not least, the book begins after the intro with sight. you talk about, throughout every part of the book, going to the museum every single day, and Sight being a part of that. Tell us a little bit about that, and then we’ll connect Sight to friendship, and then I’ll sadly say goodbye to you.

[00:39:59] Gretchen: Yeah, I decided that I would go to the Metropolitan Museum every day for a year and the year is long gone and I still go every day because I love it so much. And I’m very interested in repetition and how things can change over time. So I was curious, what I see, hear, smell, taste, touch at the Met, how would that change as I, just went so often?

But one of the most fun things that I love to do is I’ll go with a friend and I’ll say to my friend, like, well, what’s your favorite thing? Or you tell me something that we should go see. And then now every time I go, it’s you know, there’s. Thousands and thousands of objects on display at the Met.

But I’m like, Oh, that’s Sarah’s favorite piece. Or this is the piece that, I was with Maggie and we saw the guy reaching out and like touching all over that, stone sarcophagus. it’s like full of almost site mementos, you can use these sight cues to remind you, of the people that you love and and what they love. And when somebody says, Oh, you know, I love this particular color of turquoise in this French porcelain. it always looks more beautiful to me after that, because just having that one friend point that out, then it just changes the way that I see things forever.

[00:41:04] Nina: Ah, it’s beautiful and you, you wrote in the book, tapping into our sense of sight is a way to share an experience. It brings the world into conversation, so beautifully said, and I think it’s really true. Uh, one other piece in the site section that really spoke to me was about faces.

[00:41:19] Gretchen: One of the interesting things about the brain is the brain is most interested in other people. so with our sense of hearing, we’re particularly attuned to sounds that are kind of at the sound of a human voice. with touch, we have a whole system in our body for social touch and with sight, we have a lot of brain space devoted to faces and it’s interesting because you think faces are pretty much the same and yet we are so good at telling people’s faces apart except for people who have particular issues related to that,

[00:41:47] Nina: And, we are so attuned to whether someone’s upset, based on like

[00:41:51] Gretchen: Yes, it’s a, it’s a user interface for sure. we’re really, really looking and we can pick up on that so fast.

[00:41:59] Nina: Think of it with your kids too, like one of your daughters walks, I mean, you know within a second, what the mood is based on, based on the face. The final piece of sight I wanted to bring up with you, we were talking about the phone earlier and putting it on the table and whether, and it makes you, even if you’re not going to look at it, you turn it around.

It just, there’s an awareness of it makes everybody on edge a little bit. You’re kind of like waiting for a phone to vibrate or something. I wrote a series many years ago for Passover, trying to, not be a slave to my phone.

I mean, we, a lot of times in the holidays, we, you know, we try to make like a metaphor to something bigger than the literal holiday. that was back when I had a Blackberry, I think, I mean, I’m talking a long time and it’s, of course, it’s only gotten worse because to your point about making the phone less interesting and making it look less interesting, even then when it was not that interesting to look at a Blackberry really, still, it had that allure, you know, there’s messages coming through, I think a really big issue now.

And it’s the reason I don’t own one is the Apple watch. I think most people are kind of aware now, okay, I should put my phone away. It is rude to be in the middle of a conversation picking up my phone. It’s like kind of universally acknowledged. I’m not saying people keep themselves from doing it, but it’s like they apologize first.

Oh, I’m so sorry. One second. I have a text. The watch has sort of slipped in. and it’s so close to your face, it’s like, you don’t have to like take the effort of picking up your phone is right there and I don’t wear one because It’s so distracting. Have you noticed that with the

[00:43:19] Gretchen: 100%. And I’ll tell you, so my sister’s a, Hollywood show runner. And she was saying that one of the things that they were grappling with is they would be in a pitch, pitching their hearts out really like, you know, bells, whistles, really trying to captivate the audience.

And then she would notice every once in a while, somebody would like, at the time. And of course that’s incredibly deflating. Cause you’re like, Wow. Somebody is trying to figure out they’re only 10 minutes into it. And she said it was very distracting. And then they realized it wasn’t that it was that people were getting texts.

And so they were just automatically looking at their watches because they were getting that, this is a touch thing, they get a haptic alert. even if you have the sound off, you’re being reminded. This is intermittent reinforcement and curiosity, right? Two super powerful human, nature, drives. If you know that there’s a message on your phone, it’s very hard not to be like, well, I’ll just take one second to look at it.

[00:44:06] Nina: Right.

[00:44:06] Gretchen: so I think you’re right. if there’s an important moment, maybe you have to say. Take up your watch, too.

[00:44:11] Nina: Right. And people are so attached. A lot of times they wear the watch now as their fitness tracker. I mean, I understand. If you take it off, did the walk that I took even count. but in terms of friendship and connecting with people to me, it relates to the sight one. The sight of someone else right across from you, looking at their

[00:44:26] Gretchen: Yes.

[00:44:27] Nina: For text or anything, or looking at their phone for that matter, is so offputting.

[00:44:31] Gretchen: it is a real issue. And here’s another thing. I will often, take notes. I am somebody, like, if you tell me to read a book, I’ll go read that book. I love doing that. Or you say, Oh, you should do this. I’ll go do that. So I’m very suggestible. I often email myself.

That’s kind of the way I take notes. I’ll email myself stuff. But what I’ve learned is that I, pull out my phone, I’m like, Oh, I’m going to write myself a note because I want to read that book you told me about so that they know that I’m not just randomly checking my phone or emailing it.

because I think if you know that someone’s intention is Oh, they really care what I said. And they, want to do what I recommended, that really draws me closer to someone, but if they don’t understand what I’m doing, they might just think, Oh, how rude, we’re having this nice conversation all of a sudden, Gretchen is just Oh, I realized I need to buy more peanut butter.

And she’s writes a note in her notes app. you have to be very explicit so that people understand what you’re doing. Cause I agree. It can be very distracting. And then, okay, you pulled out your phone to write yourself that email. Can you resist checking your text? It’s dangerous. I have a notebook. A lot of times I’ll write in my notebook, but more and more It’s hard to go old school. we are getting trained on these devices It’s really something to be aware of of how it might be inserting itself I think this is a great reminder about the watch. It feels like this just helpful little tool But What role is it really starting to play over time?

[00:45:45] Nina: Yeah. And to know yourself, the reason I don’t wear one is not because like I’m above everyone else. If anything, I have less faith in my ability to not be distracted by it with other people when I’m trying to do something, I just therefore don’t even attempt myself. Like I just don’t even wear one. Alright, Gretchen, I absolutely hate to say goodbye to you because I’m not exaggerating.

There’s very few writers I can say I’ve read basically everything. I obviously know where to find you. And I know that you have the same handle pretty much everywhere, but can you tell my

[00:46:12] Gretchen: GretchenRubin. com. And I love to get insights, observations, questions, recommendations, resources from listeners and readers. So hit me up, Gretchen Rubin, go to my website, GretchenRubin. com, and it’s all there.

[00:46:25] Nina: Wonderful. And if you haven’t, Engage with Gretchen’s work. I hope now you will, but I, it’s hard to imagine that. I know I have a lot of listeners who have crossover. So many listeners were excited you were coming on. I wanted to tell you that my tagline every single week is this, and I know you will agree. It is our friendships are going well, we are happier all around. I say that every week.

[00:46:45] Gretchen: It’s so true, on the happier with Gretchen ribbon podcast, our tagline is not that, but it’s absolutely a major theme. it’s hard to be happy if we don’t have strong relationships. It’s impossible to be happy if we don’t have strong relationships.

[00:46:59] Nina: We obsess about it. That’s, I get all the, that’s where I get all my mail from, from people who are obsessing about something And that’s, yeah, It does. Well, thank you again. I hope you have a great time out there promoting the book and I’m excited for you to just have another one out there.

[00:47:12] Gretchen: you. It was so much fun to talk to you.

[00:47:14] Nina: All right. Bye, everybody. See you next week.