[00:00:00] Nina: Welcome to Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship. I am your host, Nina Badzin. I have been writing about friendships since 2014. Today’s guest, Shasta Nelson, who is a leading expert on social relationships facilitates events on what she calls belongingness and human connection, has been writing about friendship even longer than that.

She has such a thoughtful approach to her work on friendship in all parts of your life. I’m going to have all of her books and events listed in the show notes. And she also has a new podcast that is such an interesting niche of friendship. Her podcast is called Frentimacy, which is also the name of her second book.

The podcast Frentimacy focuses on conflict with friends, on having the tough conversations that we sometimes want to avoid in the desire to keep things simple and not have tension. But sometimes we don’t realize that tension is there because we haven’t addressed the issue with our friends. A lot of people write to me and a lot of people are trying to avoid that an issue with their friends and they write to me and they want to know what they should do.

[00:01:08] Nina: But oftentimes my answer is you’re going to have to talk to your friend. Shasta wants you to believe and I want you to believe we agree on this, most times you will come out closer on the other side. If you can have a tough conversation with your friend where you admit that your feelings were hurt, or there was something that they could be doing a little differently to show that you are important to them.

It is a gift, really, that you are giving your friend to have the opportunity to hear you out, to explain what’s going on what their intention might have been, or where they were coming from. I assume most of us would also want to know if we were doing something that was hurtful to another friend.

A lot of hurt feelings aren’t intentional. we don’t get the chance to clear it up if we aren’t willing to talk to our friends. So that is why today’s episode is on tough conversations with friends. We’re going to learn about the really interesting way Shasta is structuring her podcast.

I did have one episode in the style that Shasta is doing where she’s having her own friends who have had conflict with her or she’s had conflict with them on the episodes. I did an episode like this. I explained it in the podcast and I will link it in the show notes where I had my own friend on and we talked about our own friendship breakup and reconciliation.

Without further ado, I’m so excited to have Shasta here with us.

[00:02:22] Nina: Hi Shasta. Welcome to dear Nina

[00:02:25] Shasta: What an honor to be here. Thank you so much. Well I was going to say the same thing because it’s true.,

[00:02:32] Nina: I’ve read your work. It just feels like I’m talking to a mentor who doesn’t even know that she’s my mentor since we never had the chance to interact in person. I bet one day we will,

[00:02:41] Shasta: yes. let’s make that a goal to have our paths crossed, but thank you for having me on.

[00:02:46] Nina: You’ve written on so many aspects of friendship and we could have talked about practically anything but it is your current podcast that has fascinated me called Frientimacy, which is also the name of your second book. How did you decide on the focus for Frientimacy, the podcast?

[00:03:01] Shasta: The answer is going to make you laugh because I’ve been against podcasting for years and years and years. not because I’m against podcasting, but just because the idea of committing. I’m so impressed with people like you who just do the commitment and are so committed and to that schedule.

And I’ve been kind of like, Oh, I don’t know if I have that in me. two months ago, three months ago, I woke up at 2 AM and I saw an entire set of Season outlined. It’s such a weird story to tell. And it’s one of those things, but that’s only happened three or four times in my life. , I’ve learned that you just don’t question that.

I got up out of bed and I just wrote down and captured everything that I had seen and that I was like wanting to do. And I pretty much announced it a few hours later to my community. And then it was so funny. I was just kind of like my husband, like the next day, he’s like, you’re really doing this.

But it was just this conviction. , Different conversations must have been mulling around in my head and I think one of the ones was, I feel like we walk away from relationships so easily. I opened my book Friendtimacy with a quote that says, none of us want to be in relationship with people who hurt and disappoint us.

Yet, there was no other kind and I, I just feel like that is getting forgotten in our world of friendship. I’ve been teaching about it and saying, we need to be able to go to have hard conversations. We need to be willing to let people hurt us and disappoint us and learn to forgive.

But I think podcasting gives me a chance to, , model it. what I saw and what got me excited is that I’m committing to one season and every episode I’m going to be bringing a different good friend of mine on, and we’re going to pick a moment, a fight, an argument, a disillusionment, hurt feeling, and I’m going to go back to that moment and have a conversation about it. What were you feeling? What was I feeling? What did you wish I had done? How did you want me to respond? What do you, what have we learned since then and why was it worth going through it?

[00:04:42] Nina: Wow. Okay. I have so many things I just have to tell you. Number one, one of my most popular episodes had my best friend from college on Rebecca and She and I met freshman year in college. We were best of friends for all four years. Well, actually by the end of senior year it started to get kind of rocky Then we did not speak for two years and there were reasons why, we each had reasons why. I’m the one who instigated that I’m also the one who instigated our getting back together.

I felt that was my Responsibility considering I’m the one who kind of cut her off which I don’t recommend And I regret doing the cutoff. She is one of my best friends. We’re both in our mid forties and we were 22 when we really stopped talking. We started talking again when we were about 24. So, I mean, we’ve been friends so much longer than we weren’t. And I’m so grateful that we did that. People love that one. So I imagine yours is going to do really well. One other thing I want to comment on. I had an educator on named Ruchi Koval. She said something that reminds me of what you said and I think you will love it so much. there are people who don’t disappoint us or hurt us.

And those people are called acquaintances.

[00:05:43] Shasta: Hmm. Yeah.

[00:05:45] Nina: That’s so true. You cannot expect to go through the world and not have your feelings hurt by your friends or family that are close to you.

[00:05:53] Shasta: Yeah. When it comes to our romantic relationships, we’ve come to understand, you know, relationships take work and we understand that you’re going to fight with each other and that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have gotten married. And we understand that there’s going to be negotiating and that is going to be, you hurt my feelings when you did this and I need you to step up here more and this isn’t working out here.

And like, we get all of that. We might not like it. We might not all do it well, but we get it. And we don’t freak out and think that the, , whole marriage should be gotten rid of because we are unhappy with each other tonight. But I’ve noticed, and I’ve been doing friendship stuff for 15 years and have been talking about how to make friends as an adult and how to go deeper in our friendships.

And one of the things I’ve come to discover is that most of us, when we’re lonely most of us are lonely, but most of us, when we’re lonely, it’s not that we need to go meet more people. Most of us aren’t lonely that we just need to go Keep being busy. And it’s like, we’re not hungry for just more interaction.

We’re hungry for more intimacy. It’s not just that we want to Know more people. It’s like, we want to feel more known. Reporters and journalists will call and ask me like, Oh, the loneliness epidemic. how would you recommend people go make friends? And I’m like, most of us have met enough people to have friends.

We don’t know how to make. The friends with the people we’ve already met. Like we don’t just need to keep meeting people. We need to learn how to go deeper. And part of going deeper involves we’re going to go through the disillusionment phase, you know? I mean, it’s kind of like, I talk about the relationship models a lot.

And I think about, we, we understand what it means to be in the honeymoon phase of a romantic relationship. And while that’s so fun. And it’s so fabulous. None of us would say that should be your goal for your whole life is to stay in honeymoon phase. We understand that you’re going to go through some disillusionment and you’re going to be like, Oh, they weren’t as fun as I thought they were and Oh, and they do that.

That kind of annoys me. And you know, we’re going to do that. And it’s only on the other side of that, that we really have true intimacy. And I’m, I believe to my core the people you feel closest to the people you feel like you can rely on the most. I’m going to talk a little bit about that in just a second, but I’m going to talk a little bit about the people that you feel like you can trust for anything.

It’s not because you’ve never gone through something hard. It’s because you have gone through something hard and that leaves you feeling like you can rely on that person. So I feel like I’ve just been talking about it for so long and teaching it that I feel really convicted and excited and scared to be like, okay, I’m going to model it.

I’m going to ask my friends to come on and do this so that people can look and say, you know, when you see Shasta on social media and she’s had these best friends for 20 years and they had, Oh, I wish I had a girls weekend that did that. And I’m going to share with you. Some of those girls weekends were really hard and full of drama. It’s not because they are like easy that we’re still doing it. It’s because we went through that and talked about it and figured it out that we get the benefit on the other side.

[00:08:22] Nina: Yeah, no, anybody I am super close to, we’ve probably have had some kind of something and we’re closer because of it, like you’re saying. people are so quick to cut people off. And I’m curious what you think the origins of that are. And I see it so much on social media. And there’s so many people that are really with full of pride and excitement to announce that they have cut that person off. You know cut off culture, which is different than cancel culture.

We’re not talking about that. And I think people hear those the same and they’re not the same. And the word toxic gets thrown around and the word narcissist gets thrown around so much like all this therapy speak . Do you have any theory as to the origin of that because I don’t think it was like that as much when you were writing 15 years ago. I think when I started 10 years ago there wasn’t as much of this and social media wasn’t as big. what what is the origin of this pride and cutting people off?

[00:09:07] Shasta: It’s such a good question. I think if variety of things could be impacting it. One is social media without a doubt. I think one is we do have a desire to be like self improving. And I think part of that language starts coming around, having boundaries, paying attention to your energy when you’re around certain people.

And like, there’s some really good messaging in there, but then it’s like suddenly we, our results are outcome from that is like, Oh, if that person that makes me feel bad, I should cut them out. And I’m just like, no, if that person makes you feel bad, you should ask questions about why do I feel bad? is there something I can do differently?

Or is it because I’m walking around feeling jealous of them and like, do I need to cut out everybody I’m jealous of? Or do I actually need to stop and ask myself why am I jealous? And what does that mean? And what is it I want? And what can I do to cheer for that person? And how can I get this thing in my life?

There’s so many other questions that come up before I just go cut out anybody who leaves you feeling bad. I think it could be an unhealthy expression of the trying to take care of ourselves, which I love much of that conversation. I do think we have as a culture in general, when you look at the numbers, we don’t trust each other.

We don’t trust, I think politics and a lot of other things going on in our culture. We don’t have a high level of trust for government. . We don’t trust our neighbors. We don’t trust people on the other side of ideology things. So I think we are going through life feeling scared of everybody and, , the research shows the lonelier we are, the more we’re going to see things as fears and as dangers and as threats.

And so for those of us who feel lonely, we’re gonna walk into a room and the neuroscience says that we’re gonna try to find evidence to confirm what we feel. And so if we feel nervous, we feel scared, we feel insecure, we’re gonna walk into a room and we’re more likely to see the things that would justify that.

So, Oh, that person kind of looked at me weird or that person’s not looking at me. Whereas if we walk into a room feeling connected, supported, loved, we’re going to find the evidence to support that. And we’re going to see all the smiling people, and we’re going to see people who are talking to each other and see friendships happening.

And we’re going to feel encouraged that friendships can happen. You know? And so it’s such an interesting dynamic, but I think that the lonelier we are, and we do see our culture, 60 some percent of us are lonely on a regular basis. So we’re showing up to life, feeling more threatened, more insecure, less trusting.

And I think all of that makes us put our walls up we don’t want to be taken advantage of. So to your point, we feel like we’re protecting ourselves. I mean, I do want people feeling safe, but I think there’s other ways to protect ourselves. And interestingly enough, the more healthy relationships we have is probably one of the best ways to protect ourselves.

[00:11:20] Nina: I want to add one more theory to our bigger theory of why you know, I have four kids they’re pretty much all teenagers now they range from 12, to almost 20. I’ve been through the whole teenage thing. And when you have four kids, I did it kind of poorly the first time with the first couple two and I’ve gotten better with the next two and by better I don’t mean just parenting in general and on this specific part that I want to talk about which is I think there’s a lot of over parenting that goes on and again I was guilty of it around this video.

issue of hurt feelings. we do a lot, I get so many letters about it, to kind of make sure our kids don’t get their feelings hurt, that they’re always included, not just in the birthday party when they’re little, and there’s a place for that. then it gets stretched out to, Making sure they’re in the homecoming group, that they have the right college roommate and that they get into the sorority, the fraternity. I mean, there’s a lot of parent involvement. I’m in a lot of parenting Facebook groups of college stuff and camp stuff. I really want to be like, when are people going to be okay with their kids feelings getting hurt?

And if you’re never going to be okay with it, either are your kids.

[00:12:20] Shasta: yes. That is big. I’m so glad you brought that up. We’re so scared of getting our feelings hurt. We’re so scared of feeling bad. I just think that is, yeah, rather than being scared of it, I would rather teach us how to trust ourselves, that we can survive getting our feelings hurt, that we can recover from things that the people aren’t so toxic.

I think in all my books, I talk about how I’m okay with people saying that’s a toxic behavior, but to just say that somebody’s toxic makes it sound like they’re stronger than I am, that their toxicity is something that I can’t control. It’s just going to get all over me and I’m much stronger than that.

I would like to believe that I can be in a room with toxic people and that I have a strength and a defense mechanism that they can’t do anything to me. That’s going to hurt me. Like, I can protect myself. So, yeah, this whole fear, that’s really big. We need to learn to trust that we can, we can recover, we can heal. We can grieve. We can get over things.

[00:13:10] Nina: Let’s talk about some of the examples from Frentimacy, the podcast, because I think this idea you have of modeling that friendships can survive is going to help so many people. Do you mind revealing a couple of the episodes that maybe you’ve already done or ones that might be coming up soon?

[00:13:25] Shasta: some of my favorites is we’re talking to one of my friends who is always very busy. That’s a very hard one to do because that’s a conversation that I’m actually showing up in real time and saying this is still an issue in our relationship and I don’t feel like a priority. So that’s a hard one. one is a friend who went through a kind of one of my crises.

I went through a divorce and what was it like to be her when it was like I was sucking all the oxygen in the, in the room around those circumstances. one of my friends, it was a really hard friendship and that she. She had like a fear of rejection or, you know, we went back and forth around what to call it, but it played into our relationship where I felt like I could never convince her that she was accepted, that she was okay.

And just her own insecurities and how that kind of played into our friendship and kind of exhausted parts of the friendship made me, weary about hanging out with her and just feeling like, Oh my gosh, she’s insatiable. You know, just like, so I mean, talking about how our insecurities Play up in that. Talk about jealousy.

I have a friend who we’re going to come on and talk about how we both have been jealous of each other and how we handle that and how we talk about that together. what I did is I basically reached out to each of my good friends. And I said, I would love for you to be on my podcast.

We have to name an issue that we have had where we want to come on and talk about it. And I’ve got to tell you, Nina, even just talking about what we could talk about, felt very vulnerable because you’re like kind of,

[00:14:40] Nina: actually getting a little nauseous.

[00:14:42] Shasta: I mean, I felt that way a little bit too. I had this like thrill and excitement about doing this podcast and then to actually have to like start Brainstorming what we could talk about.

You’re like, maybe I had that issue and she didn’t really have that issue. And maybe she doesn’t know I’ve had that issue or like, maybe they have an issue that I actually don’t know about. And so, yeah, I was just trying to give my friends permission to say, if there’s anything where we’ve had hurt feelings where we feel like we fought You know, some friends, it was easy.

We could go back and say, remember when that talk happened, like, let’s go back and do that. And other friends were like, brainstorming all kinds of issues. I was like, Oh my gosh, we need like 17 episodes just for this one friendship. But yeah, it was scary just even brainstorming.

[00:15:17] Nina: Did anyone say no? Like, you know, listen, I’m not comfortable. I’m not a public person. I don’t want to get on there.

[00:15:22] Shasta: One person is, I’m not taking her, no, it’s a not yet, but, uh, it’s around politics. I really, really, really want to do one on politics and we have opposite politics. And she’s like, I don’t think we can do it. And I was like, I

think we can. So that’s the only one that’s a cliffhanger at the moment, but all my other friends, they said yes. These are not authors. These are not influencers. Many of them aren’t even on social media. They have nothing to gain. Almost all of them are very nervous. This is like their first podcast episode. So this is, it is stressful on both ends for sure.

[00:15:52] Nina: oh my god, I have so many follow ups, but I’m gonna let the episodes themselves stand and people should go listen to it And I can’t wait to hear the rest of them. Some of the underlying things I want to get to which is People a lot of times will ask for my advice about some thing issue They’re having with their friend and I’ll put them in the newsletter Sometimes I put them in the podcast and then they’ll write But I hate conflict.

What do you say to that person? I’m curious what you say,

[00:16:14] Shasta: Yeah. And I would love to hear what you say too. I just say, well, that’s fine. Fine. You don’t have to have conflict with everybody, but if you want close relationships with some people, you’re going to have to learn how to have some conflict. there’s better ways to do it than others. And it’s just a muscle that you can develop, that you can strengthen.

I mean, I’m never going to be somebody who’s like, Oh, I love conflict, I can’t wait for the next conflict, but I will say after having done it enough, I do kind of like it, not in a masochist way, but in a way of I do learn that it’s a portal to closeness. there is a way that when you go through that with respect toward each other on the other end, I do feel like we can trust each other more.

I do feel like I learned more about that person. They learned more about what matters to me. It’s a muscle that can be developed and it’s kind of the more you do it, the more you start seeing how valuable it can be and how it doesn’t have to be scary.

And it actually can be bonding. And if you can reframe it in your head as not something to be avoided at all times, but rather as something that’s going to happen in anybody who’s getting closer to each other and just see that as, yay, we’re now moving from the honeymoon phase into the next phase.

Like it’s actually means growth for our relationship. What do you say to that question? Um,

[00:17:16] Nina: it is a sign of maturity I like of being an adult and I think even younger than adult people can learn to do it I mean one thing I tell the younger set is my kids and their friends is I really encourage them not to put stuff in writing because a lot of the people, they share it with others and just to learn to have a real conversation and don’t rely on these snap chat conversations.

And they call them paragraphs. , they’ll say, Oh, I have to write so and so a paragraph. They really say that. And I’m like, why don’t you just pick up the phone? And then they feel funny about it. Cause they’ll say, well, if I write it down, then my words can’t be misconstrued because it’s. A conversation gets repeated, obviously without the written word. I don’t know. I hear that point. And I think for adults that might work. I just get very nervous about words being

[00:17:58] Shasta: Yeah, we can misconstrue things in written word. I mean, you lose a lot in the written word too. So

[00:18:03] Nina: Exactly. You don’t have the tone you don’t have. So you, you do miss something either way.

But what I tell people is that you have a choice to make, and if you’re going to not talk to your friend and stay friends. Okay, so if you’re not gonna cut the person off You’re going to have this person in your life, but you’re gonna choose not to bring this topic up, Then you have to truly truly forgive them silently even though they haven’t had the chance to ask for forgiveness and Move on. And if you’re not gonna do those two things, Then you’re really being unfair to that person

[00:18:32] Shasta: I love

[00:18:33] Nina: something over somebody who hasn’t had the opportunity to Answer for it. It’s like an opportunity you’re giving the person. I would love the opportunity to explain myself. If somebody is upset with me for either reasons I did know about, or certainly for reasons I don’t know about. I would really prefer the opportunity to hear what they have to say

[00:18:50] Shasta: yeah, that’s a great answer, nina, you know, so it’s like you either have to be willing to forgive or have conflict and both are really hard things. And both are things that we don’t do in friendship very well at all. So making that, path that has options clearer helps us make a choice or say, otherwise you just swallow.

I find so many people convince themselves they’re taking the higher road. They’re going, well, let’s be a bigger person. I’ll take the high road. And they think that they’re doing something righteous and they almost feel proud of it. And I’m like, no, you’re not. What you’re doing is actually getting more and more resentful and building up a bigger story and making this into a bigger issue.

And I interviewed, in addition to having some of my friends on the podcast, I’m doing a couple of panels where I’m inviting some of my community members to come on and let me interview them on And so I did one episode, on, three women on who were ghosted by a friend. And then I’ve got another episode where I’ve got three women who have ghosted somebody.

And those are cases where they don’t even know what happened. the relationships end without the people knowing even what happened. And the other side feels so resentful and so angry, and it just became this really big thing they couldn’t put up with anymore. To your point, they didn’t practice the forgiveness that’s so necessary.

[00:19:57] Nina: It is hard to advise people on when to just let things go, because truly not everything is worth a sit down. And I guess where I fall on that is if the benefit of the doubt is appropriate there, That would be something to let go. Or if we’re being very sensitive about being left out, for example, like if you know that three friends of yours went on a trip, but it was like a two day thing and you have a lot of friends and it’s not like everyone went, I feel like that would be one to let go because.

If they didn’t tell you they probably didn’t tell you because they were trying not to hurt your feelings and like let’s just give them that one and Acknowledge that we also I know like I also like to do things with just a few people sometimes and don’t always want to do Something with ten people and so if we like that I say this in a lot of episodes You have to give that to the next person.

I tell my kids that a lot You cannot have dinners with just one friend and do stuff with just one friend and really enjoy it and then begrudge other friends for doing stuff without you, So that’s one to let go. when do you think there are other things to just let go of? if you can even think of that off the top of your head, because I know the point of phantomacy is conflict.

But before we almost get to conflict, we have to know what’s not worth,

[00:21:04] Shasta: It’s a great question. I teach in my, when I take all the social studies that are out there of what builds trust, what makes a healthy marriage, what makes us feel closer to some people than others, I find three requirements to all healthy relationships that have to be present. And so I teach those on a triangle.

At the bottom of the triangle, is positive feelings that we have to affirm feel more good than bad in our relationships. And then as the two arms up, the triangle is consistency, like our shared experiences and our interactions and our time together. And then our vulnerability, which is how we know each other, how we feel seen, how we feel understood.

And so all three of those things have to be present in a healthy relationship. So I teach that the higher up the triangle, I have gone in consistency with somebody, the more I owe. Okay. Vulnerability in that triangle. So for me, the answer would depend on how close of friends we are with each other. I let a lot more go on the bottom of the triangle in many ways.

I guess, like, they’re not my close friends. I don’t have as high expectations of them. I don’t get my feelings hurt by them as much. but it’s higher up the triangle we have 20 years together. we see each other every day at work. We get together for lunch every week.

Our kids are doing stuff together. Like the more our lives are intertwined, the more history we have, the more frequency we have. I think there’s also more opportunity for us to rub each other. There’s also more opportunities for us to bump into each other Step on each other’s toes and not live up to expectations.

I don’t have high expectations of my amazing friends who live long distance. I don’t expect them to like show up at my door and help me when I’m sick, but maybe I would be disappointed if my local friend didn’t do that, you know? And so I think the more we’re in each other’s lives, the more we can be disappointed.

So to me, I guess it’s a long way of answering that. For me, I look and say, okay, part of vulnerability isn’t just disclosing things about my life. Part of vulnerability is letting people know where I get triggered and where my wounds are and where I get hurt easily. And so if I’m high enough up the triangle that I trust you with my secrets, then I should also be trusting you with my heart. And part of that is vulnerability with myself.

So if If a couple of friends went away on a vacation the weekend together without me, I go, okay, that hurt. It’s not necessarily their fault. All that says is oh, I wanted to be, is it that I wanted to go do something with some friends? Is it that I actually wanted to be with those three?

Is it, you know, use that as an opportunity, like, don’t be scared of the hurt feeling. See it as your body sending you a message. And I get excited by that stuff. Like to me, I’m just kind of like, okay, so if I, those people specifically that I want to spend more time with, what can I do to initiate more time with them?

What could I do that makes sure that I’m showing them that they’re a priority in me and that I want to spend more time with them and get to know them better. Or is it just that I’m jealous cause that looked like a fun time. And do I want to play in something like that? And so to me, you know, that’s not something I would necessarily go see.

I’d just talk to somebody about it, unless I felt like the four of us were really good friends and the three of them went, then yes, I would be like, it looked like you had so much fun on that weekend, you know, and not that you owed me an invitation, but I did feel a little hurt. I felt a little left out and I would have that conversation if those were really, really close friends of mine. So I don’t know.

[00:23:49] Nina: in that scenario, three people out of a foursome who went is different. And like each scenario

[00:23:53] Shasta: it’s so different. Yeah.

[00:23:55] Nina: one major question, I think a lot of people have this question, when do you know that a friendship isn’t worth fighting for? So you think they’re a close friend, like you really feel, I love the way you describe vulnerability as not being just disclosing things, which I think.

A lot of people assume, but it’s also being really honest about the things that you said trigger you. I, think that’s really true. I’ve had to have that conversation with people.

[00:24:17] Shasta: sometimes we’re just like, Oh, I don’t want her to feel bad. I don’t want to feel bad either, but I will feel more bad if I Found out at some point I’ve been hurting you all along. , I would rather quote, have hurt feelings.

You’re not saying something terrible about me. You’re not being mean to me. Like, I don’t want those kinds of hurt feelings, but for you to say, I’m sure you don’t mean this, but when you say this, this is how it feels, I would, Oh my word. Want to know that. Absolutely.

[00:24:38] Nina: And people are very scared to criticize others because it is a slight criticism to say you do this thing and it bothers me. But I agree. It’s really just direction so that we could continue to be close friends. That’s all it’s really saying I like you want you in my life, but

[00:24:54] Shasta: Yes, and that’s how I advise people to deal with it. It’s not a perfect formula and it’s a little oversimplified, but I just call it AA. It’s the affirm and ask. And it’s very quickly around just what can I affirm? I want to say to this person, I still want you in my life. I still want to be friends with you.

I love our relationship. Affirm what’s happening here. Like, I’m not having this conversation to break up with you. I’m having this conversation because I love you. And I want you to know something about me and then try to get to an ask as quickly as possible. and so sometimes that’s, can we brainstorm ways to spend more time together?

I miss you. I love you. I, I wish we were closer. Can we brainstorm ways to be together? In this case, it would be just like, uh, I know you didn’t mean this. And I want you to know about me because I want us to be closer. And is there any way that we could figure out a way to interact with each other with, without you teasing me, because I just, this doesn’t feel fun.

Is there other things we can joke about or something, you know, but I, I think that we have to learn how to have those conversations. Nobody’s waking up being like, I just really want her to hurt. I really want to not come through for her. I really want her to feel judged. we almost do all of this unknowingly, and I just think that’s one of the heartbreaks for me is how much of our relationships are ending.

Because we just simply aren’t giving each other a chance to talk and to connect. and I’m sure you’ve seen the research. Dr. Jeffrey Hall out of university of Kansas talks about how our best friends, we’ve invested 200 hours in them. when you think about that, to me, I look at it and this might sound kind of crass, but those are investments I’ve made.

I’ve put quote 200 hours in. , I would much rather have an awkward one hour conversation protect the investment and like, keep building the hours. Even if it’s a 50 hour friendship or a hundred hour friendship, when you think about it, just four hours. Purely from an investment standpoint, you’re way better off taking a little hit and keeping your money in and building that investment up than you are pulling it all out and starting all over with somebody, knowing that every time you get to 50 hours with somebody else, there’s going to be another thing you’re annoyed with.

So at some point you have to go past that. To build the relationship. And I just feel like we live in a culture that keeps pulling their 200, whether they’re not even getting up to 200 hours, because every time they’re disappointed, they make an assumption about the other person and they pull away.

And I’m like, we’re going to stay lonely. My friends, unless we learn that part of intimacy is it’s sometimes disappointing and awkward and sweaty and hard. And that’s okay.

[00:27:02] Nina: Oh, that’s so beautifully said. And I love the visual and I love Jeffrey Hall’s research, but it’s a really good way of thinking about it. That one hour of discomfort, that uncomfortable conversation. It’s not even necessary conflict. It might be like pre conflict, before you’ve had a chance to really, you may just be a really calm conversation, but you have to put in that potentially icky hour to protect.

I love that to protect the 200. So I’m going to move us onto something I’ve been wanting to talk to you about as a fellow friendship writer and thinker. Do you ever feel pressure to be, the perfect friend and has this come up at all in your episodes?

I’m curious if your friends, you’ve had an opportunity I haven’t really had, curious if your friends on these episodes you’ve recorded have ever said to you anything about the work you do how it affects the friendship.

[00:27:43] Shasta: Such a great question. Yes. And yes, I, deal with it less now than I used to. I’ve always been very hesitant to bring my friends into like, I don’t want to show them off on social media very much. I don’t want them to ever feel like props in my career. I don’t want to come home from a lunch and have them worry that I’m going to blog about what we talked about or, you know, so I’ve, I used to be more hands off and I actually had friends be like, you know, you can.

Take pictures. You can use it. I didn’t want them to ever feel like an advertisement for anything. So over the years, we’ve had a lot of honest conversations about that. And I’m very clear where my friends stand. And most of them are big champions of my work now and that sort of thing. But I used to feel lots more pressure, but moving to a new area, I moved a year and a half ago.

And that was awkward. That was the first time I’ve had to, in a way, feel like, Oh, people are like looking me up before they’re actually even, So they’re expecting something of me. And that’s what, that was the harder one was feeling like I needed to somehow do this all right.

And I just have to say that right off the top when I’m meeting people, when they find out, and I’m like, that doesn’t mean I do everything right. It just means I know a lot about the subject, you know, but, uh, rest assured I will find a way to disappoint. And I just kind of try to take the pressure off a little bit, but yeah.

How about you? Has that been, how has your work impacted and interwoven with your friendships?

[00:28:52] Nina: That’s interesting what you said about the pictures. I never have consciously thought about it, but I have zero pictures of my friends on my social media. , okay, that’s not true. I think I did one reel last year, and when I put it up, it was from a trip I did with two college friends, and I put it up with a little bit of anxiety . I feel like I’m more comfortable with getting my feelings hurt than being the cause of someone else’s hurt feelings. Um, I would sooner not plan a thing than plan something to leave someone out. Although I’m working on that because I’m going to be 50 years old in like three years, AKA I’m 47.

What am I going to like not do stuff because I can’t have 40 people? I mean, that’s ridiculous. And I would never advise somebody to operate their lives that way. I would say you have to live your life. I think it affects myself in that way though. , as I’ve written more and more about friendship, that. I’ve been more nervous in some ways to have anyone feel left out or have my kids. be the cause, which they have been, of people’s hurt feelings and stuff, because I’m like, oh, Oh, Nina’s such an expert, and I don’t like people to call me an expert. I don’t call myself an expert,

I call myself a friendship enthusiast. I’m a writer first and foremost, and this is the topic that I’ve been writing about for ten years, but it Doesn’t mean I won’t write about another topic at some point. I don’t claim to be an expert. That’s my point I’m really like spiraling with this answer.

[00:30:05] Shasta: No, it’s hard.

[00:30:06] Nina: It does affect me,

but I love it so much. There’s no other topic I’d want to write it talk about or write about. I guess people who talk about marriage Or dating probably feel that pressure to oh, they must have the perfect marriage you know, like I’m having empathy now for people in those topics

[00:30:19] Shasta: I think it’s how we talk about it though, too. To your point, you’re not, you’re not holding yourself up as follow me. I do everything perfectly. I think there are marriage people who are setting themselves up in that way. Like, we are your examples. And I think that’s a different. when you’re following them, you expect something different, but if you’re more of like a, Hey, learn along with me, Hey, I just found this out.

Hey, learn from my mistake here. I think that sets up a very different tone. You know, one of the upsides, I feel like it’s strengthened my friendships I feel like all my friendships, they all know what makes for healthy friendships, so they, we have a shared common language where they’re just like, Oh, our consistency isn’t as high as it should be.

Like we need to increase our consistency. So all of us have a shared language. And I really think that my friends have benefited from hearing about my other friends. So I, as I have gotten more comfortable sharing, I’ve modeled that when I use the word best friend, I don’t mean it as one person, it’s not a quantity.

Best friend to me is a quality, it’s a quality of relationship that we reach. And so they’ll see me talk about one of my best friends and I did this, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And one of my best friends, and I did this, and, they know that I have other best friends and I want them to have other best friends.

And I talk and I want to know who their friends are. And so I’ve hopefully by us talking about our different relationships are helping create a different expectation that we aren’t just friends here and we need to hide our other friends from each other or that we need to protect each other from having other friends, but really giving permission to my friends to have other great friends and that I’m cheering for them to have other great friends.

When I do get together at their parties or their big moments, I feel like I know some of their friends

[00:31:45] Nina: that’s beautifully said. And I also have an upside that people love to talk about friendship with me. Like I love that my own friends will come to me with maybe issues they’re having with other friends from a solution standpoint. Like they’re coming to me, not just to, you know, vent there’s a place for that too, but I think they actually come to me for help because they need someone to talk it through and they know that I will sit and listen to it because I enjoy it.

I’m genuinely, genuinely. fascinated endlessly by this topic. And so they’ll come to me for, and they’ll make dates with me to talk about, can we go for a walk? I’m having, you know, such and such issue. And I think that’s great that they have a friend they can come to. And I feel like it brings us closer. I feel like a trusted person in their lives. Before we say goodbye Shasta, is there anything else you want to add about the podcast or anything we talked about today?

[00:32:32] Shasta: Yes. So many things, but I feel like maybe I didn’t answer the question super well about how to know when a relationship is worth saving or not. Are you okay? If I go back and try to go a little deeper on that, because I think we got off track on all these other things, but in short, as I was kind of referencing the triangle earlier, the.

Friends, Missy triangle. To me, the higher somebody is up that triangle, the more it’s worth trying to save or not. what I always try to do first is ask myself, how can I save this? And what have I done to save it so far? And so if, if for example, consistency is the thing that’s broken down and we’ve drifted apart, like what can I do to try to put consistency back into our relationship?

Or sometimes positivity has fallen out. We see each other all the time and we’ve got, consistency and we know each other, what’s going on in each other’s lives. We’ve got vulnerability, but we. It’s nice. Like lost energy. It doesn’t have fun. We’re like drained, retired by it. What can I do to show up and bring more joy, some more place, some more laughter, some more inspiration, some more empathy, some more kindness to this relationship.

How can I help foster more gratitude in our friendship? So I’m always about what can I do To fix this relationship to repair it. And sometimes it doesn’t even need a conversation. It just needs me being intentional about how I show up different. then if that doesn’t work, it’s then maybe, do I need to have a conversation?

Is there something I can say? Can I show up here that we can. protect this relationship. For me, that’s a long way of saying a relationship that I know isn’t worth saving is when I’ve tried to do those things and it hasn’t worked. When I’ve put in everything I can, I’ve put in the awkward hours, I’ve put in the sweat, and the relationship isn’t responding, or the relationship is kind of stuck in one spot, then doesn’t necessarily always mean I have to end the relationship, but I at least acknowledge where it Stuck on the triangle, and I stop having expectations of it being higher up the triangle than it is.

So it’s bringing my expectations down to be like, okay, this is just somebody who, she doesn’t ever get really deep. So okay, that’s fine. That’s where this relationship is. And I’ll see her every so often, and we can still be friends with quote marks around it, but I’m gonna stop holding an expectation and getting my feelings hurt and being bothered by how she’s not responding or something.

So for me, it’s kind of a process of thinking through how much I want to protect and save that friendship. And what I’m willing to go do to help make that happen.

[00:34:40] Nina: That’s an excellent answer. And if you haven’t recorded all your episodes yet, because I know you do some pre records, that should make it in there, if it hasn’t. Because it really is an important point, that putting in the effort, doing everything you can, and then not necessarily cutting it off. I think that’s so huge.

I have friends, I’m sure you do too, that went through periods of time, not because of conflict, but just life. I’m glad that I didn’t do some sort of dramatic end, which I’ve only done one time, like I said, and really regret doing that. I’m so interested that you moved to a new town and had to put into place a lot of the things you teach about making friends. Like you had to actually do

[00:35:14] Shasta: I put more pressure on myself. Probably. I know I was like, Oh geez. And I felt all the feelings like, Oh, I don’t want to go out. I don’t want to go meet people. This is awkward. This takes a lot of energy. Yeah, absolutely. And the one thing I’ll, I can end with this is this is the metaphor that’s been working for me lately.

And that is. When we think about our physical health, we understand that it’s on the other side of physical exertion. We understand that we’re going to get out of breath. We might even stretch a little bit further than we want to. In fact, if we want to tone our muscles, we’re actually tearing our muscles and we’re actually injuring ourself knowing that it’s on the other side of that sweat that is our physical health.

And We don’t sit on the couch and expect our physical health to be amazing without us putting energy toward it. And I, the same is true for our social health. And so I say, you know, you don’t stop exercising just because you start sweating when it comes to your physical health. So, so too, should the same be true of your social health.

Yes, you might, some things might cause you to sweat a little bit. And yes, some things might make your heart rate go up a little bit. And yes, some things might feel like a little stretch or that muscle might feel a little flabby. That’s okay. The only way to get to social health is on the other side of that. That’s the whole reason you’re doing it is to get stronger.

So kind of using the physical health exercise metaphor has helped me understand that I’m not here to avoid. sweat. I’m not here to avoid exertion. I am here for it because I value the social health on the other side.

[00:36:32] Nina: I am so excited for people to hear your podcast. They need it so much. This world needs this topic. And Shasta, thank you so much. Really appreciate you being here.

I’m going to tell you my tagline as I say it to my listeners. I think you will agree with it. And maybe you’ve heard me say it, which is come back next week when our friendships are going well, we are happier all around.

[00:36:52] Shasta: Hmm. Love that.

[00:36:54] Nina: I loved having Shasta here. I hope you did too. If you are enjoying these friendship conversations, you can find me on Instagram on Tik TOK @dearninafriendship.

You can find my Substack newsletter at dearnina.substack.Com. And one final place. I do have a Facebook group we talk about lots of friendship items. And that is that dear Nina, the group on Facebook. See you next time.