[00:00:00] Allison: If you’re going to only continue to see a friend because they meet you 50 percent of the time as host, as opposed to guest, that’s not the equation that should be in your mind. What Dr Ruth Westheimer would say, your goal is not reciprocity. Your goal is just to spend time with friends that you care about. So the mechanics and the process by getting there, let it go and use your upside. The wonderful prize at the end of the day is just being able to be with people who you want to spend time with and forget the tallying.
[00:00:47] Nina: Welcome to Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship. I am so excited to share today’s conversation with you. It is with Emmy award winning journalist, Allison Gilbert, who has co-authored numerous books. This book that she most recently coauthored, I’m holding in my hands, which you can see on YouTube, but I’m going to describe it to you. The Joy of Connections that she co-wrote with Dr. Ruth Westheimer. It is so full of wisdom about friendship and connections, not just why we need friends because I think that’s pretty understood and she doesn’t spend a lot of time on that which I appreciate.
I actually love books that don’t dwell on that fact. I don’t dwell on it in the podcast. It’s just understood, we need friends. How do we make friends? How do we get along with the friends we have? How do we handle when we’re disappointed with friends? Dr. Ruth has so much wisdom that comes through with Allison Gilbert, and they also did work with with Dr. Ruth’s longtime business associate Pierre Lehu, and friend of Dr. Ruth. Dr. Ruth died in July 2024. Allison met with her every week for a year.
When they first met in 2023 to work on a piece about the loneliness epidemic, it was for the New York Times, which will be linked in the show notes. I cannot tell you how much I love this book. I showed this to Allison in the episode. I’m going to show this on video now for anyone who’s watching on video that I have almost every page dog eared. I just kept underlining and folding down the page and saying, yes, and putting little asterisks by the words. It’s a short book.
The subtitle is 100 ways to beat loneliness and live a happier and more meaningful life. And in the episode, I highlight eight of my favorite of those 100. So the top eight of Dr. Ruth’s 100 ways to beat loneliness and live a happier and more meaningful life. Without further ado, I bring you my conversation with Allison Gilbert.
Hi, Allison. Welcome to Dear Nina.
[00:02:46] Allison: I am so happy to be here. This is such a treat.
[00:02:49] Nina: It feels like a long time coming because I read your original, original piece, in the New York Times, just talking about, was it a couple years ago?
[00:02:58] Allison: It was when Dr. Ruth was vying to become New York state’s ambassador to loneliness. That was only in November, 2023.
[00:03:09] Nina: So this all happened so fast because then there was a piece after that really announcing the book The Joy of Connections. I love this book so much before we get into my eight favorite moments in the book, I’m going to show you, my pages folded in. And then after a while, I was like, I can’t read the entire book to Allison on the episode.
So we will pick out my eight favorite moments, but I want to know exactly how this book came to be. And if you could weave in some of Dr. Ruth’s background too, which not everybody knows would be amazing.
[00:03:39] Allison: It came to be because I’m just about the luckiest writer on earth. I was assigned a story to write for the New York Times about Dr. Ruth’s quest to become New York State’s ambassador to loneliness. It was eventually successful. Normally people do not raise their hand and volunteer for such appointments. That is usually done because you are, you know, cherry picked by a governor. Dr. Ruth, as you shall soon learn, never really did mind going around and over and beyond and skirting convention.
She was a survivor. She endured a lifetime of setbacks and challenges during the Holocaust. She was separated from her entire family when she was just 10 and a half years old and never saw her mom and dad again. She just died at 96 this summer, and she spent a lifetime piecing back together a chosen family of friends. And so I found her to be so inspiring when we met and we just wanted to stay in each other’s lives and work on this book, the joy of connections together. And it has been the absolute honor of my life to do this with her.
[00:05:00] Nina: I have to imagine just every conversation with her must have been dripping with wisdom. I mean, it comes through in the book.
[00:05:09] Allison: I think the reason why I hope that you’ve connected so much with the Joy of Connections is that Dr. Ruth is very similar to you and what you accomplish on this podcast. You are direct. You are forthright. You kind of cut to the quick and you tell people how it is and how they can kind of extract the nuggets that they need for their lives and their friendships.
And that is exactly what Dr. Ruth was all about throughout her entire career. Direct, to the point, no euphemisms. Let’s just say it how it is and move forward. And so I appreciate that about you and your work too.
[00:05:52] Nina: Oh my gosh. You’re officially my favorite guest. I love that she was a behaviorist and that really speaks to me. It comes through in this book a lot that in her training and her practice, it was about exactly what you’re saying, moving forward. Her life, I mean, is the best example of that and all of the hardships she had. All the languages she had to learn and the time she had to move and start over. And she did it.
[00:06:14] Allison: I think one of the things that most resonates is that she would have clients come to see her. Unlike maybe a psychologist or a psychiatrist who would want to get to the root of the problem, maybe start excavating your childhood. Dr. Ruth, if you came to see her in the 1980s for, let’s say a sexual problem, she wouldn’t really care too much about that back story. Let’s just, talk how to do it. Let’s move forward. Let’s find solutions feel empowered, and then put some ideas to use. And that’s exactly why I think what you’re doing here is so important.
[00:06:53] Nina: Thank you. Yes. It did resonate with me. She’s very much like everyone can do this. And of course there’s always circumstances. I did an episode, a couple of months ago about neurodiversity because I had had feedback from some listeners who were like, this is all great, but you know, they, they’re neurodiverse.
And I just wanted to acknowledge that I do know and see that all this advice has not applied to everyone. For the neurotypical listener and reader of my work and of this book as well, Dr. Ruth’s attitude and, and I believe your attitude comes through in it too, because I think you must, Allison, believe it and feel it to have been able to write it with her and to bring her words to the world is this is doable and that’s what makes it exciting and approachable. So how about I tell you my eight Favorite things I may read some quotes and I and I want to hear like your reaction to them and maybe what it was like to talk about those things with her.
It’s like you’re a conduit to dr. Ruth.
[00:07:48] Allison: I love to add just one thing it’s okay with you. I think the point about, making sure there’s oxygen when we’re talking about neurodivergence. On a different level, Dr. Ruth felt physically othered
throughout her entire life. She was four foot seven and that made her in her own words, feel ugly at some points unworthy of love, thinking that she would never find the kinds of relationships that would make her feel full and experience that kind of joy that comes from either romantic or platonic relationships. What she says in The Joy of Connections is that don’t forget society puts obstacles in your way. It’s not only on your shoulders. Much of it is, but let’s also acknowledge that there are certain obstacles that communities, that governments, put in your way that makes pushing forward in a way that can build connections harder. And so she was very appreciative that sometimes it is more difficult for some people. So I’m with you on that.
[00:09:06] Nina: and her I think message also was and then do it anyway. Like, I love that. That’s a perfect way to introduce these. There’s way more than eight. I’m limiting myself to eight.
My first one was, and it’s very apropos of everything we just talked about, actually, you’ll see, I think all the ones I picked out are just so pure dr. Ruth and it was pushed through rejection. Push through rejection because that is probably the thing that I hear about the most when people are trying to make new friends or deepen friendships. There’s such a resentment, I would say, not just a fear of rejection a resentment of somebody being being busy or not being that interested.
[00:09:45] Allison: I don’t think there’s a person on earth who hasn’t been rejected socially or professionally. I think it just comes with the territory of being human. And when you are human you will face rejection. The point is in pushing through rejection, keep going. You will find those connections that are meant to be, but if you stop looking, you might not.
I’m gonna tell you something really funny. So, Dr. Ruth, when she was trying to find a romantic partner, for a time, she went on J-date. To her, finding someone who was short, again, she was four foot seven. She wanted the man who was under, let’s say, five foot five. That was an asset to her. So there is a lid for every pot. The point being, keep going. Don’t let rejections take over your life and keep you for pursuing the life that not only do you want, but you deserve. Dr. Ruth would say, we are all deserving of love.
[00:10:54] Nina: Oh, that’s great. I’m glad you brought up the height thing because she does make a point of that in the book. It reminds me of something that I talked about in a couple episodes with a college admissions advisor, and we were talking about college admissions, but also those early times of freshman year, and she was saying how if you know, let’s say in high school, that you just did not like going to basketball games and football games, and that was like not your scene. And you really liked Dungeons and Dragons, don’t run from that in college. You’re not going to show up and be an entirely new person all of a sudden. Just to kind of appreciate and know your differences. That was a whole piece in the book too, of know what makes you different.
[00:11:31] Nina: I think you worded it, lean into it, but there was a different
[00:11:33] Allison: Be honest with yourself and your interests. And if you do that and follow that path, you’re going to find friends, I imagine, in those circles.
[00:11:44] Nina: I will go to the next one, which is to be curious about people. And it seems so obvious, but it is something that can take you through any gathering. If you can come to a social gathering with curiosity, it may take some of the fear away. I think of, what are we going to talk about?
You know, who’s going to want to talk to me? Let’s focus on who do you want to talk to not so much like who’s gonna want to talk to you like who can you talk to that you’re curious about.
[00:12:09] Allison: I’m going to give an example. I’m going to do role playing with you. So we’re at a party and we just met. I might say to you, so where did you grow up?
[00:12:17] Nina: Oh, am I answering? Okay. Um, I grew up in just outside of Chicago
[00:12:21] Allison: Oh, that’s so interesting. I have a friend who lives in Chicago and she really loves the Cubs. Do you like to go to baseball games too?
[00:12:29] Nina: I didn’t love it, but my dad was a huge fan and would take me to games and I would sweat my face off at those games. But I would go because I know he really wanted to take me.
[00:12:39] Allison: Oh my gosh, my dad loved baseball too, and he was a Yankees fan. So I grew up in New York and we would go to Yankees games together.
So just as an example, already I know that we have stories that connect us through our fathers. I have now learned that you grew up in the Midwest.
You’ve now learned that I grew up on the East coast and the conversation can move from there. I was curious about you. I asked you questions and that’s what we’re talking about here.
[00:13:08] Nina: I’m going to take that one step further. First, I love that you did that. And then you did something so brilliant in that little fake conversation that a lot of people don’t do and then they grow resentful. You offered up that you’re from New York before I even asked and I love that because I am telling you, the average person who is not practiced in this and is not open to curiosity and another one of these that we’re going to talk about, which is being less judgmental ,would not offer where they’re from. They would wait for the other person to ask. And if the other person doesn’t ask, they would leave that conversation with, “see they didn’t even ask where I’m from. They’re not interested. They’re so self centered.”
And it’s like, well, maybe the person you were talking to was nervous. Maybe they’re just not that good at small talk. Most people aren’t. Maybe they have something that they have to get to in 10 minutes. They have to pick up a kid and like, even though they want to know more about you in theory, they also are trying not to prolong the conversation. So they didn’t ask, but they had a good reason not to ask that you don’t know.
Dr. Ruth actually says a couple of times in here to give people more chances. Don’t make such snap judgments and give people second chances, third chances. I love that attitude. I wrote a little note, she didn’t use these words, but these are my words on reading her words and your words, which is get over yourself a little bit.
[00:14:24] Allison: Yes.
[00:14:25] Nina: you know,
[00:14:26] Allison: Yes. 100%. Just don’t take yourself so seriously. You are not the center of everyone else’s orbit. And so give people two and three, four chances before you write them off, because if you write them off, you’re actually writing off the opportunity to potentially connect.
[00:14:46] Nina: you see what I mean, how I didn’t ask you, but you offered it I want everyone to do that. I do that a lot. I just offer information.
[00:14:53] Allison: Have an idea. We can coin a new phrase, you and me, right here. We can call these leaving conversational breadcrumbs.
Leave a breadcrumb like I did about New York that you’re talking about. What can you drop into a conversation that somebody else can pick up?
[00:15:09] Nina: Oh, that’s so good. Okay, next one is communicate your needs.
[00:15:15] Allison: I have a simple way of boiling this idea down into a nugget that maybe so many people can really get right off the top. Your friends are not mind readers. So you need to use your words to advocate for your own needs the same way a parent might suggest that to a child. And that may sound harsh, but I think we as adults, we forget to use our words and we think that our friends should intuit what our needs are. And that’s actually an unfair burden to put on even your spouse. You can’t do that to friends. They have their own stuff going on.
[00:15:56] Nina: I’d say that summarizes a lot of the anonymous letters I get are assumptions people are making about their friends and and really about friends intentions why a person did a thing or why a person didn’t do something. The missing piece is often that you never communicated you had this expectation in the first place Next one is admit your mistakes.
[00:16:16] Allison: right. Don’t get on your high horse. Just be real. We all make mistakes. And if you kind of stand firm and double down on perhaps an argument that you know you should perhaps let go of, for what? Some things are just not worth that type of rupture in a relationship. Admit your mistake.
[00:16:37] Nina: And you say in here, I don’t know if I’m supposed to say you say, or Dr. Ruth says, or it’s the two of you together. “How are you at admitting your mistakes? Your refusal to say, I’m sorry, could be one of the reasons your, and she wrote, it’s family relationships, but I’m making it all relationships have suffered. It might also be one of the reasons you’re lonely.” That’s hard to say to another person: you are lonely because you are unable to say, I’m sorry, and it may be the case.
[00:17:02] Allison: I think this is one of her most important points in The Joy of Connections. Admitting that you have agency, that not having enough friends, not having the kinds of friends that you most want, maybe look in the mirror and see what role you are playing in this reality. Instead of seeking out who’s to blame, instead of looking out and deciding that you are the recipient of poor behavior that you wish was not the case, be honest with how your own behavior might be contributing to where you are with your friendships.
[00:17:44] Nina: It is really a revelation, this book, because that attitude, people are afraid to say it, and I think the eight things I chose really fall in that category of things you can do, either things you can do to improve your friendships or things you might be doing to harm them.
There’s really not a section in here about friendship breakups. Her attitude seems to be like, you can make Most things work, but you got to do some work. It’s not going to be just about blame, like you said.
[00:18:09] Allison: by the way, I would underscore what you just said. You need to do the work.
[00:18:14] Nina: Mm
[00:18:15] Allison: there are five sections in the book all formatted within Dr. Ruth’s menu for connection. There’s community, technology, friends and lovers, because of course it’s a Dr. Ruth book. So of course there’s, romantic relationships in there too.
But just going down and Highlighting, underscoring this most important point, the biggest section is self. Your relationship with yourself is a determinant to your friendships and the quality of these relationships.
[00:18:51] Nina: I combined two, into one that I want to highlight but they’re two different chapters It’s be less judgmental and then well, I, okay, I’m going to read it to you. It says, “don’t let snap judgments ruin your chances of developing a good and satisfying relationship. You can build deep connections with people who have different political views and religious beliefs. I bet someone you didn’t initially think was attractive may actually grow on you. First impressions might tell you everything you need to know. But not always. Push yourself to give people a second or third chance. If you do, you might discover someone worth befriending.”
And so that section was, don’t judge a book by its cover, but I think it’s connected with be less judgmental.
[00:19:31] Allison: I love it. It’s a really great point. I think if you want to give people the benefit of the doubt, that’ll only come back to benefit you. You are not going to develop the relationships you want by keeping people to a different standard than what you would want them to keep you to.
Or you want that same grace. And just to think about that as something that has a living breathing component, it’s an organism that feeds off each other, I think is really important to keep in mind.
[00:20:00] Nina: I really harp on this a lot in many episodes and just always the smallest example is we know that we didn’t text you back because it just somehow slipped. We were, we were busy. It didn’t stay highlighted. Especially now in the car, like the car reads texts to you and then you go back to your phone and now it’s not highlighted anymore and never got to respond. But your friend didn’t text you back because they hate you. They’re mad at you. They’re inconsiderate. It is how the brain works if you don’t fight it.
[00:20:25] Allison: If I were to tell you one of my favorite parts of the book, I would say it’s about not keeping a ledger.
[00:20:32] Nina: no, I’m getting to that one. Hold on page 48 page 48. I’m on it. I’m
[00:20:36] Allison: That is so funny. I mean, that to me is just brilliant.
[00:20:41] Nina: You and I obviously are on a very similar wavelength. I’m not kidding. I wrote right under
[00:20:46] Allison: we should enjoy this, friends, you and me.
[00:20:48] Nina: Yes, I totally.
[00:20:50] Allison: Friendship is blossoming right here. Everyone’s listening. We just met and we are literally now starting. Our friendship starts today.
[00:20:59] Nina: Well, we’ve had a lot of nice emails and social media, exchanges too. Right under where I put be less judgmental and adapt, which we just talked about, I have written underneath, lose count. I just love that expression even because you said don’t keep a ledger same thing. You really talk about it in a few places. It’s page 48 is lose count and page 64 is organized plans and to me It’s actually the same thing.
I spend lots of episodes on this very thing. Allison, the thing that brings people to my website and podcast more than anything else, because I can see it on the SEO Google searches that lead to my site. So these are people who find it maybe accidentally, and then hopefully stay, is some expression like this.
My friend never initiates contact, or my friend never writes first, my friend never reciprocates. So I want to hear your thoughts on it and how important this was to her to just be the host, be the planner.
[00:21:51] Allison: Unfortunately, you’re going to have to get over it. So if you’re always the host and you’re waiting for it to be reciprocated, and that’s going to be how you judge a relationship, you’re going to be on the losing end of that equation most times.
And let me just explain. Some people actually enjoy hosting. They have the type of apartment or home that’s conducive to hosting. Maybe they have the type of job where they get a little bit more pockets of time to steal away and send a group text. Maybe there’s some financial struggles that they don’t share with you. And so hosting, no matter how minimally, feels like a potential burden. We really do not know, even with our best friends, what’s really behind the door all the time.
If you’re going to only continue to see a friend because they meet you 50 percent of the time as host, as opposed to guest, that’s not the equation that should be in your mind. What Dr. Ruth Westheimer would say, and what our argument is in The Joy of Connections, your goal is not reciprocity. Your goal is just to spend time with friends that you care about. So the mechanics and the process by getting there, let it go and use your upside. The wonderful prize at the end of the day is just being able to be with people, who you want to spend time with and forget the tallying.
[00:23:29] Nina: And I think reciprocity matters in some ways, but it doesn’t need to be tit for tat. Like you’re saying, it doesn’t have to be hosting because you hosted. Reciprocity might mean that your friend shows up every time you throw something. That’s a valuable thing. It feels terrible to invite people to something and then no one comes. Or the friend who comes first and helps set up. And we’re using hosting very literally in hosting events, but it could even be just reaching out. That’s another way kind of of being a host. You’re the one who says all right, there’s a new movie, new Colleen Hoover movie I want to go see.
Okay, but maybe you’re the one who organized that the last time and the last time and the last time. Who are the ones who always show up? Showing up is reciprocity. Writing back and saying, I can’t do it on, December 5th, but can we look at the 10th? To me, that’s reciprocity. That person got their calendar out. They want to come, they want to be part of it. So that has to count. And it’s the title of the chapter that I love the most was lose count. And then for my own, I actually have an episode coming up called Let It Count.
[00:24:23] Allison: Oooooh
[00:24:24] Nina: let it count that the person suggested a different date.
[00:24:27] Allison: I love that. I think at the bottom of every page, if I could have highlighted a singular idea, it would be pay attention to how you are showing up because it makes you feel closer to your goals. So if the way you’re showing up puts you closer to your goal, which means inviting friends over or making plans, and if that’s your goal, keep going and lose count.
[00:24:53] Nina: You say in there not everybody has the same need. You are in a place in life, let’s say not you Allison, but you the reader the listener, you’re trying to deepen friendships or broaden your friendships. Yeah, you’re gonna have to reach out more. You may be reaching out to someone who’s very full right now, happily full, or not happily, like they have other things on their plate that are not so happy. You are going to have to make more of the effort. That’s just how it is.
[00:25:16] Allison: I love that. I’m so glad you brought that up.
[00:25:18] Nina: We only have two more. One of them we kind of discussed with your friendship with Dr. Ruth, and that is to broaden your definition of friendship. And I’m connecting that to another one. Broaden your definition of friendship, which is really on page 61, but then later, like 20 pages later, “You must expand your thinking when it comes to the way friendships typically form. From the time we start school, our social circles are most often determined by age. Students who are in the same grade, etc, etc. Be on the lookout for cross generational opportunities. They invite the sharing of experiences, wisdom, and perspectives.”
Those are combined to me is to broaden your definition of friendship. You kind of have to do that first before you can appreciate these other opportunities.
[00:26:01] Allison: Listen, we can go into some awesome tactics. One of them, which would expose you to many different types of people is that when you go out to dinner, don’t just get a table for one. Go sit at the bar, go order dinner at the bar and to your left and to your right and right in front of are at least three people to talk to. And if it’s not deep or meaningful than just some fun conversational banter, which may lead to a new friendship. No one is made to feel that shame that might come from sitting solo. And so a practical tip to meeting people across generations, or maybe someone who’s just a little bit different from you from a different neighborhood is go out to dinner, sit at the bar and see who you meet.
[00:26:50] Nina: I liked also the practical tip that somewhat falls in here, but maybe it’s really in the next one. So I’ll float in the last one, which was make yourself more friendly. I loved the tip of, if you can, obviously financially, you should be a little more generous than maybe you would be naturally.
Like maybe take everyone out for your birthday because the, intention might be, you don’t wanna be alone on your birthday. You don’t wanna be alone on your birthday, then make yourself a little party. Could just be round of drinks to take care of yourself, but that also is friendly.
[00:27:21] Allison: When I was writing this book with Dr. Ruth, I learned so much from her. You know, we would meet once a week for almost a year. And it was an intense period of time where I was just a sponge to all things, Dr. Ruth. And I learned, myself, an invaluable lesson that I put into practice. For my last birthday, instead of waiting for my friends to raise their hand and do something for me, I did something for them because Dr. Ruth convinced me that showing my friends how much they mean to me is the highest, best way of deepening our friendship. So on my birthday, I planned a day that was meant to have them come to my house. We did yoga, I ordered in lunch and we just hung out for the day and it was just my way of showing them you are really special to me. I see you. I value you. And on my birthday, I want you to know I count you as my blessings. And I learned that from Dr. Ruth. And I never had such a wonderful, magical birthday.
[00:28:42] Nina: Oh, I love that story so much. To close out, I want to hear what the reaction has been like, from readers. You’ve been on other shows and obviously being in New York Times several times now. What are you hearing from people?
[00:28:57] Allison: People are so grateful that Dr. Ruth made this later in life pivot. She was 95 years old when she decided to become the ambassador to loneliness of New York state. She was 95 years old when she decided she had something more to give and to say, and she was a collector of friends throughout her entire life.
We talked about how she lost her entire family in the Holocaust when she was just 10 years old. And even when she got married and had children of her own, she restored this biological family, she kept accruing friends. The reception has been this love fest for these final lessons of this American icon that we are all now seeing benefiting from. We are still in an epidemic of loneliness. And so you had mentioned the New York Times articles and it’s been so well received. It’s because she’s tapping into what we need right now. We’re such in a fractured political climate. But at the end of the day, what connects us on a human level is so important and can make us feel rich in connection. I feel really lucky to have been able to work with her on her final project.
[00:30:30] Nina: I’m so grateful you did. I’m excited to help put this book in the world. I just think it’s a great gift. I just also liked learning more about Dr. Ruth’s history, which I didn’t know that much about, which surprises me. Sometimes people are so famous that you think you know everything about them, but then when you go to read stuff.
[00:30:46] Nina: You’re like, you know, I’ve actually never sat and read a whole history of her. So what an amazing life in person and how lucky for you to be able to be a friend to her at the end of her life.
[00:30:55] Allison: I think what links her career. When she came to fame in the 1980s, no one was talking about sex openly. She went where no other person has gone before with these types of very forthright conversations, but there was shame around those topics in the same way it’s really hard for some people to admit. And maybe that’s why there are so many listeners today hearing us. We don’t want to admit we don’t have the kinds of friends who we dream of having, who we feel like we deserve. There’s shame and taboo.
So what Dr. Ruth has done throughout her entire career is bat those taboos away. Let’s get to the heart of the problem and let’s find solutions. And that’s what you’re doing here. And so it’s the perfect place to have this conversation. And I’m so grateful.
[00:31:50] Nina: Allison, I hope we meet in person one day, but in the meantime, we’re going to stay in touch.
[00:31:54] Allison: I love it.
[00:31:55] Nina: listeners, you can find Allison on social media. What is your Instagram handle?
[00:32:00] Allison: @agilbertwriter
[00:32:01] Nina: @agilbertwriter. And I’ll have it all in the show notes. It’s always clickable. Sometimes people don’t know how to find that stuff. Whatever you’re listening on, whether it’s Spotify, Apple, there are always notes associated with an episode and you can always find the guests information there and always find where to find me on social media there.
But come back next week, everyone, when our friendships are going well, we are happier all around.
Bye Allison.
[00:32:25] Allison: Thank you so much. What a joy.
MEET ALLISON GILBERT: 
