[00:00:00] Emma: This is why we vibe so well, Nina, on all of these concepts, because I just feel philosophically aligned with you on this. And I wrote this in the Next Avenue piece about how to be a more generous friend is if you want to have a more generous friend, be a more generous friend. There’s also some other elements. It’s not only what we do It’s also who do you pick as your friends and can they be reciprocal? Do they have the time and energy? it’s not only you but you can certainly influence the relationships and and have an important role

[00:00:31] Nina: Welcome to Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship. Today, I have such a good topic. Putting the power in your hands to be the kind of friend that you want to be and to be the kind of friend that you want to have so that you have friends that are like this. And that is the topic of generosity, being a generous friend.

And as I get into with my guest, Emma Nadler, this isn’t about financial generosity. This is generosity of spirit. It’s a really helpful episode. Emma Nadler has been on the show before. She is the author of such an outstanding memoir that I suggest to people all the time called The Unlikely Village of Eden, which is about learning to adapt when life doesn’t go according to plan, redefining community, and creating your own imperfect path.

Emma along with her husband, they are caregivers to their daughter. I will, link in the show notes, of course, she has also written for the Washington Post, Salon, Huffington Post, Newsweek, among many other publications and in her private practice, as a therapist, she helps people build deeper relationships, including friendships, and cultivate more of what they want.

Even with life’s inevitable challenges, which she’s had to deal with in her own life. I loved this piece that she had in next Avenue about being a more generous friend. And so we will welcome Emma back to the show.

All right, Emma, I’m so glad you’re back.

[00:01:56] Emma: Thank you so much for having me. I am definitely a fan of this podcast, so I’m happy to be here.

[00:02:02] Nina: You’ve written a lot of articles about friendship in the past couple of years. I’ve loved them all but the one we’re going to talk about today is from Next Avenue about how to be a more generous friend before we get into it, I want to know what inspired this particular article.

[00:02:16] Emma: I think it had to do with what I’m curious about and what I’m thinking about, which is what most of my writing or anyone’s writing is about. what is really grabbing me in this moment?

And I think of generosity as it’s absolutely not an arrival point. It is kind of like mindfulness in that it’s something that I want to practice. And it’s something, of course, that there’s a lot of other parts that can get in the way. So I think it’s like my greatest hope to be a generous friend and to cultivate that.

And since I wrote this piece, I sometimes pause and think, is this generous? it’s a good checking point. is this a generous thing to say or do? How could I be more generous? I’m finding it to be really helpful personally to consider it.

[00:03:01] Nina: You’re right. It’s like a goal. It’s something we aim to be it’s not something you just are at, you have to constantly be working on it.

because it’s very tempting many times to do the less generous thing. We don’t mean financially, although that could be an example, but it’s not really what we’re saying here. But sometimes the word generosity gets confused with, not being cheap or picking up the tab.

That’s a more literal way of thinking of it, but we’re really thinking much bigger than that.

[00:03:27] Emma: we’re thinking about generosity of spirit, of kindness, of considering the other person’s experience. I’ve been learning so much from friendships, sometimes we learn from what we don’t want to do, and then we recalibrate, and then we figure out, okay, this is the way I want to do it.

This is how to be more generous.

[00:03:45] Nina: That’s right. Like giving grace is one that is not on the list that was in the article, but I think that actually encompasses a lot of them, which is benefit of the doubt. That is a huge piece of being generous in a friendship. We’re going to get more into the exact examples from your piece because I have commentary on each of them which won’t surprise you. when you’re in your practice I know you cannot talk about your clients. You’re not going to. I can tell you as someone who receives a lot of anonymous letters about friendship oftentimes the unspoken thing is If the person writing the letter were to come at it with a bit more of a generous spirit, they might not be as upset as they are.

[00:04:21] Emma: I love this point, Nina, and it makes me think of a term that I heard from Dr. Becky Kennedy, which is the MGI, the most generous interpretation. So like, how do we extend the most generous interpretation to the people around us instead of what we sometimes can make up about it? But I think if we pause and kind of look and lean into, okay, but is there another more generous way to look at it? Things can become more clear and often a lot easier for everyone.

[00:04:51] Nina: Think about all the times, we did something unintentional. Didn’t return a call or a text. Actually, a friend of mine who I have plans with up this weekend, texted me right before this episode and said, Is this restaurant okay? I didn’t hear back from you.

Now we’re such good friends and I’m such a fast texter. she just knew that it’s not like I was upset at her and I appreciate her just knowing that and sending it to me again. Not kind of waiting and waiting and then Saturday comes around and she’s like, well, like, you know, we made other plans we never heard from you.

There are people who would do that. That would be so exact with like how they expect to be communicated with. maybe I’ve proven enough over time that I’m a good communicator. So she knew this was a weird aberration, but, it’s would be nice to do that for people. More often than not, just assume they didn’t see it or they need the reminder or they’re overwhelmed and they did see it, but they didn’t get back to me because they’re disorganized this week.

[00:05:40] Emma: Yes. To not take it personally. And I think that’s a great example of something in everyday life that It matters. Like those little moments instead of harboring or holding on, or now we’ve canceled plans to just deal with it in the moment and then move forward.

[00:05:55] Nina: All right, let’s get into the article. So your first example was celebrate friend’s successes. And I wrote you an email.

I could not agree with this more. Exclamation point. Talk to me a little bit about what, where this came from for you.

[00:06:08] Emma: I think it came from probably experiences with my own friends where they were able to do that for me. And it felt so good. It felt like, what a delight to feel like you care. so in this example, it could be something bigger. It could be something like, throw a lunch for a friend or, offer to take them out for a job promotion, or it could be something a little smaller, like send a card when, you notice something that was a professional success or that they had a new baby.

so I think it can really range from some really big, exciting acts of kindness to really small everyday things.

[00:06:55] Nina: even a text. I’m going to get really quick and easy, even a text just to say, I see how hard you’re working. somebody who did that for me, in relation to the podcast, a newer friend. So you’ll maybe this was also a bit of a making a friend effort, which is so nice. she texted something along the lines of you’re working so hard. I see it. And I’m really impressed. You’re doing great. And I felt so seen. She didn’t have to spend a dollar. Gosh, that was nice.

[00:07:22] Emma: that’s the piece is you just said, like, I felt so seen. that’s, I think what most of this comes down to is seeing your friends. I mean, we all want to be seen. But part of being seen is, of course, seeing others and having that be, an exchange. each of these, we could broaden them out to be the exchange of, of seeing others.

[00:07:45] Nina: So interesting, because in our last episode, Emma, we were really talking about kind of the opposite of this, which is being there in hard times. And that wasn’t like the title but that is what we are really talking about was your book and the hard time you and your family had gone through, still go through currently, and the way friends can show up in these harder times.

And we’re talking about something different, which is harder for some people, because there’s jealousy sometimes and envy. Sometimes it’s easier to be there in a hard time because we’re not dealing with jealousy issues.

[00:08:13] Emma: Yes, and I think this is so, astute, Nina, because of the way that, I think as a therapist and as just like a big feeler, I can often really be there for people in difficult times. if you’re struggling, call me. And so I think this wasn’t as intuitive for me. Of showing up when things are great and really enjoying celebrating and I think It was through several friends and maybe even just like one friend that stands out in my mind Who’s really good at celebrating the good stuff and that inspires me to want to do that more and not only of course focus on Supporting people when it’s hard which is also important, but I think to really have a well rounded friendship, you want to be able to really meet them in lots of different parts of life and that ebbs and flows

[00:08:58] Nina: I wonder if you’re thinking of our shared friend. We have

[00:08:59] Emma: I am. I am.

[00:09:02] Nina: think of her that way too. We’re

[00:09:03] Emma: Yes. Yeah, let’s give a shout

[00:09:06] Nina: Debra deserves a shout out. She has a wonderful Instagram called for the love of cookbooks. She’s been a guest on this show , as I was building my own Instagram, wrote me a text one day and was like, let’s decide what we’re going to do when you get 10, 000 followers. Now we haven’t done it yet and I’m past 10, 000. that’s not her fault. That’s my fault. She has tried Deborah. I know you tried.

You tried to schedule it. I like drag my feet because I don’t remember I was traveling or something I think what she was getting at is these little celebrations, The milestones happen so quick and it’s hard to mark them if somebody doesn’t force you or do it with you.

[00:09:37] Emma: And then that joy is contagious. That spirit of celebration and let’s mark this. And then once you get going on that It’s like of course you want to do that. why wouldn’t you want to celebrate all the wins all the whatever milestones and so yeah, I think that when anyone is generous, it kind of can inspire others to then be generous, too. And this is definitely a case of that.

[00:10:01] Nina: All right, number two closely related in some ways is Show up in person, but it isn’t just about for successes, right? So this could be for hard times and good times and all the in between times. Talk to me about that one.

[00:10:14] Emma: Well, I think since the pandemic, this, and not just the pandemic, but I think complex times politically and various cultural factors that have kept us more on screens or tucked away or remote work. this takes a real effort to show up in person because so much of what we can do is from home.

and I like to stay home like the rest of them. So I get it. And I still think that being generous as a friend does mean leaving the house does mean going somewhere. And sometimes it means even if you don’t feel like it in the moment.

often in the moment, it’s like so cozy or maybe you have worries about whatever the thing is that, that’s difficult, or that might hold you back.

But I really think showing up to events, life events for people, but even in smaller ways, really getting together and making sure that you can see each other in person. Or via phone. if someone is long distance, I think that you can still show up in real time. I might amend this a little bit because I do think still having a conversation really matters and there’s research about that.

But I think showing up in some way where you’re having a synchronous conversation of some kind.

[00:11:33] Nina: The phone deserves to be on the list for that because people are so adverse to this. I get so much pushback. I talk about this a lot, like pick up the phone, call your friends. And I know it’s very like boomer, Gen X, it works. Now the younger kids tend to FaceTime, which is not a bad thing.

I mean, actually, I think that’s great. And that is, more personal than just being on like a snap group or something. It’s a good thing. So we shouldn’t. push the FaceTime thing away, but yeah, showing up in person. We just came back, from a family bat mitzvah in Denver. So this was for family, not friends, but even that means so much to people. This is my husband’s first cousin’s daughter. This side of the family really taught us about showing up because we have older kids. So when our son had his Bar Mitzvah, he’s 20. So, you know, seven years ago, all these cousins, all my husband’s cousins came. They brought their kids and they really set the tone of how the family was going to be that we’re going to be a show up family I credit them for that because I’m not sure had one of theirs been first, and we had little kids, if we would have dragged everyone along and it meant a lot that’s showing up. I that’s how memories are made.

[00:12:39] Emma: Yes, people remember. and I think about caregivers because I’m a caregiver, to my daughter who has disabilities, I can’t remember every text I’ve gotten. Many people have kindly texted me, how’s it going? But I think I can remember every visit, or many, many times when people have shown up for me, my friend who dropped ice cream at my door, my friend who came and sat with my kid and watched Moana with us, I remember those times. It does seal something in the memory to spend time together.

[00:13:11] Nina: Actually, with your situation in mind, I think it’s important to say that sometimes showing up in person is basically impossible. Like, you, Emma, are not going to be flying around to every single cousin’s event. You just can’t. I have to imagine, between work and caretaking, and you have to pick and choose, when you’re leaving town.

Just because leaving town is you’re going for one event, but it turns into a 48 hour trip situation. So this isn’t to shame people for not showing up. It’s just to acknowledge that it’s not possible to always show up, but you are so right that we remember when people do. We really do.

[00:13:42] Emma: I think to sum it up, metaphorically show up. However you’re able to in the moment with whatever resources, energy, time, finances that you can spare, show up in that way.

[00:13:52] Nina: Number 3 is my favorite topic of all time which, is extend invitations. Such a big one. I love that you have this as a category of generosity.

[00:14:02] Emma: It’s a category of generosity, because I think that most people want to other people to extend the invitation. That feels so lovely to get an invitation. It’s not vulnerable. You know, it’s not as vulnerable when we’re the receiver of the invitation, but for any invitation, it does require some vulnerability to say, basically, I want to spend time with you.

And so I think that’s why, there’s often a preference that we would, we’d like to get that invitation. But I think that really, To think about it more from a broader lens, and I really like what you’ve said about this, Nina, because I think you’re just really on point with this. Instead of scorekeeping, to consider the exchange about, how, the invitation is met and, to be the person who’s willing to take the risk.

[00:14:51] Nina: It puts a lot more control because I don’t have it in a category of generosity. I mean, now I do that you’ve made me think about it. I’ve always more had it in a category of controlling your social life. And so when I’m hearing from people who are lonely or don’t feel they have anything to do or are frustrated with people who Haven’t invited them.

my first thing is always, who are you inviting to stuff? are there other people besides this one person you’ve focused on? People get really fixated on this person has not invited me. I’ve invited them four times. Or they never invite my kid and my kids invited their kid a million times. I really try to get people to take the focus off because there’s so many people out there, but I really like this point of view of just thinking about invitations as a way to be generous.

[00:15:31] Emma: and I talk about this in my therapy practice. In a way, it’s a little bit of a service too. Like if you feel shy and you’re like, Oh, I don’t want to invite this person. It’s like, well, actually this person likely will appreciate an invitation because many people are sitting hoping to connect more with others and trying to figure out how to do that. so I do think it’s generous from, from a lot of levels, even though I think for people, sometimes you got to dig deep to do it.

[00:15:58] Nina: number four, check in more often. What that looks like can be confusing. I think people worry about being annoying

[00:16:06] Emma: Hmm.

[00:16:06] Nina: it’s like a concern people have

[00:16:08] Emma: What are your thoughts on that?

[00:16:09] Nina: It’s less thoughts and more like what does it look like to check it more often? I automatically go to text. If I’m checking in it’s probably on text I’m a big phone caller too. So it’s not that I’m not but Gosh, the phone call thing. I know we talked about it a little bit before, but it’s comes up in my Facebook group a lot. I mean, people have strong feelings. there are definitely people cause there’s people of all ages in that Facebook group but even people my age or older don’t want to be called. And I’m sort of just like, so frustrated with that point of view because how do you think you’re going to connect with people? So it’s time consuming and yet there’s an efficiency to it because you’re actually getting real emotion, real tone of voice.

You can send a thousand texts that will never really cover what you can cover in a conversation. Maybe not a thousand, probably a thousand texts. You’re getting down to it, but you know, but the that was a bad number.

[00:16:59] Emma: I like that. I like that. That’s go big a thousand texts later. What did you learn about your friend? Everything.

[00:17:05] Nina: Yeah, you’re good now

[00:17:06] Emma: Yeah, yeah,

[00:17:08] Nina: it can be Hard to know what’s too much. I guess that’s what I’m getting at. I think something that keeps people from checking in more is the worry that I’m going to be annoying this person.

[00:17:18] Emma: And I think, well, first of all, like, if you’re not a phone talker and there are, there’s people who just prefer different methods of communication and that’s great. That’s why we have a lot of methods of communication. It’s not a one size fits all, but if you’re not a phone talker, Or if your friend isn’t, I guess you’d hope that then they wouldn’t answer the phone.

I mean,

people get to choose. Yeah.

[00:17:39] Nina: what voicemails for

[00:17:40] Emma: exactly I think, pay attention to the cues of the people around you. So yeah, if you’re texting someone and they never text you back or very rarely, then they’re not going to be your text buddy. I would definitely put that energy

into something else in terms of at least that method of communication. So I think it’s like, where is the energy happening? what is reciprocal? What is feeling fulfilling? where are you getting energy from? So I mean, paying attention to your own experience and seeing. But I think if you’re worried that someone won’t like your text, You could run an experiment and just try to text and see what happens.

text them once, , what happens, you know? And then you can go from there.

[00:18:23] Nina: When you are going through, I’m going to call it a caregiving crisis because I know there’s times when things are rolling along and you’re on your regular schedule and there’s times when your daughter’s in the hospital and it’s just a rougher couple weeks or a week or more. how often would you like people to check in with you?

[00:18:38] Emma: I’m not a person who’s going to be upset if people are checking in with me a lot. I can’t ever remember a time where I thought that friend cares too much. I don’t that’s not And I just don’t have that experience. I’m like bring it I want the love i’ll give it back to you, too I might not be your average person because I for me, relationships are so important.

So like, I really want to be in touch with people. And I know there’s a spectrum on that, right? People want sometimes more and less space. but for me, I have not felt that I got too much care. . I haven’t, gotten to that point yet.

And I don’t anticipate that that would be a problem I would face. I got other problems, you know,

[00:19:17] Nina: I did an episode with Jill Smokler a friend of mine, she’s the one who started Scary Mommy and she is struggling with brain cancer.

in that episode, we did talk about how a really helpful thing when you’re checking in and this kind of situation, I know in your article we weren’t necessarily talking about, hard times, but I’m just talking about that now It’s just even saying there you don’t have to respond just acknowledge letting you know I’m thinking about you not expecting a response like maybe as a way to temper that

[00:19:44] Emma: Yes. That was a beautiful episode., It was a really, really powerfully done and I appreciate that language and I think people can do that, but I also think part of the onus is on us. I guess I don’t feel like I have to respond to everyone. if I couldn’t respond, I think I probably wouldn’t respond.

I’m not looking for permission, but I still think it’s a generous thing to do as a friend to say, Hey, of course you don’t have to respond to this. what I also have been thinking about, cause I listened to your episode with Anna Goldfarb recently, and I really liked what you were talking about with her when you talked about picking a few people that you’re really invested in as friends. Like, we can’t check in with everyone, that is not realistic. there’s different groups of people and different closeness levels that you have in your life. Check out this episode for more information about it. If you want to really get a, more nuanced conversation about this, but I think what I really liked is it’s overwhelming to think that we could be generous with every friend, with every relationship all the time.

So I think we pick a few people that we really want to cultivate closeness with.

Maybe it’s like one, two, a few people, three, maybe max. I don’t know. I’m not going to try to give anyone a max on friends, but it’s like, there’s a handful of people that we can be close with. And so focus on those versus needing to check in with every single person in your contact list. Of course. Now you’re exhausted. If you’re doing that.

[00:21:11] Nina: Yeah, but what I like about this and it’s connected to extending invitations Actually is again putting the power in your hands to say like what can I do instead of waiting? instead of thinking about who hasn’t checked in with me. They don’t really care about me. It’s like well know who have you checked in with. I that’s always my attitude.

[00:21:26] Emma: Yes, this is why we vibe so well, Nina, on all of these concepts, because I just feel philosophically aligned with you on this, and I wrote this in the Next Avenue piece about how to be a more generous friend is if you want to have a more generous friend, be a more generous friend.

So that’s the key is To act generously that’s what cultivates that between you. There’s also some other elements. It’s not only what we do It’s also who do you pick as your friends and can they be reciprocal? Do they have the time and energy? it’s not only you but you can certainly influence the relationships and and have an important role

[00:22:04] Nina: That actually connects to number 5

which is about being a matchmaker. You mentioned me in this part, which I appreciate of introducing you to Jennifer who’s become a writer friend and a real friend, not, not the writer friends aren’t real friends, but like you’ve surpassed colleague status, I think. I introduced you to, cause I felt you had a lot in common. I knew you could benefit in your work, but also deeper. There are a lot of people who may have that feeling, but they don’t necessarily do the next step of connecting people.

it might be sort of a scarcity worry. So that’s why I connected to the checking into the invitations to me that’s all under this bucket of focusing more on what you’re getting than what you’re giving. There’s a karma aspect to that. if you don’t ever introduce people to each other, you can’t really expect people to think of you in those situations either.

[00:22:50] Emma: What a gift to give. Jennifer, I talked to her today, we had this great conversation about writing ideas and are just flinging back and forth essays to each other and it’s been a, such a generative relationship. You had a hand in that and it is such a gift to give someone that connection.

And of course, whoever’s being set up has to take it and, and take the risk and put in the time to build that relationship. But I do think matchmaking, like I want to write more about this. I think this is such an exciting conversation. We talk about it so much about dating there’s so much focus on, you know, setting people up in dating.

And I also think setting people up in friendship Is really exciting and fun. I’m setting some folks up later and I think you perhaps inspired me to that. I have a brunch coming up with some friends that I think have some things in common. it’s just like, what a fun thing.

Like what an adventure to see what happens.

[00:23:46] Nina: Yes

[00:23:47] Emma: with

these

[00:23:47] Nina: them as like little friendship babies. We’re making little friendship babies. the relationship that develops out of these two people you put together or more than two people, it is going to be in a, infant stage of friendship. you might, not just you, Emma, like you out there listening, may know two people really well.

And so your friendship with these two people, or maybe you don’t even know them that well, but enough that It’s going to be further developed than the relationship those two are going to have with each other at first, what you have to be able to handle is that that relationship might grow beyond the relationship you had with either person.

And that is generosity. That is generosity to kind of say, I want these people to know each other anyway, even though I may have nothing to do with it. People really struggle with this Emma. They don’t necessarily want their friends to know each other because it may cut them out.

[00:24:35] Emma: I know. And I think another way to look at it is like more love is more love, and it also could be more hangs together, like it could be more chances to all connect. It could lead to a lot of things that are also really fulfilling and beautiful. so, yeah, I think it takes some I guess maybe confidence that you’ll still be able to maintain those relationships or grow those relationships. I kind of feel like when a lot of my friends are partnered So it’s like what is the next frontier? I guess it’s friend setups.

[00:25:04] Nina: You sent me a piece from the Atlantic, speaking of Anna Goldfarb again, she was quoted in it. It was by Olga Kazan. She wrote another great piece about friendship also in the Atlantic, maybe two years ago already called Stop Firing Your Friends. I loved it. It was this idea of not everything has to be like a breakup and an ending and which I just did a episode about. Anyway, Anna was also same Anna, Anna, you’re getting a lot of shout outs here. Anna’s book, Modern Friendship is great. And in that book, which was also quoted in the article, Anna talks about how part of the issue with making plans with friends and having time for friends is that we have all these one off friendships.

And so this is kind of a solution to some of that is if people know each other and you only have a little bit of time, it’s a little easier to get together.

[00:25:46] Emma: I want my friends to be friends, and yet, I think that article that came out in the Atlantic was so spot on, which is why I sent it to you at like 9. 30 at night last night. The main premise is that most Americans would say they have friends, they just don’t see the friends. I feel like you have to work so hard to make it happen, and to reach out, and to do it, and to be in person. It was a really keen cultural observation and something that we’re all grappling with to one extent or another.

[00:26:16] Nina: An important thing about setting people up is having buy in and permission, I think. cannot stand when when somebody CCs me. It’s happened to me a few times, and this is less about friendship.

It’s more about work, but where somebody will write me an email with their friend on it and say, you know, Nina, my friend, so and so really wants to understand more about podcasting. I’m going to leave you two to it. you have now just asked me to help your

friends with kind of a massive topic that would take

hours and hours. I could send them a million articles. If they were to watch YouTube’s, it would take them 10 hours. I’m supposed to download all that information for your friend? that’s less about a setup. But even in a setup of a friendship way, you have to ask permission first.

[00:26:58] Emma: Yes, you do. You need consent and I absolutely agree that you just willy nilly trying, especially to me, that wasn’t the ask that your friend had from you. That isn’t a friend ask.

to me, a friendship beginning is about, you know, reciprocity. It’s about connection. It’s about coming together. It’s not I have a work thing or I have an interest that you can help me with. That to me is more of career, work, passion, request. And I really get what you’re saying and it’s easy to feel turned off by that because that’s really more of I want you to give something to this person versus have this reciprocal connection.

[00:27:38] Nina: Maybe the person who wrote the email was trying to be a good friend to her friend by being like, oh, hey, I know someone who can help you, but it’s like kind of was being a bad friend to me by putting me in the position of either having to take a lot of time or to say, no, both of which are not great things to make your friend do.

[00:27:54] Emma: I think you’re right. The intention is, is lovely. They were trying to connect you and offer, but I think that yeah, it’s good to, pause a little bit before making a request of a friend. If it, especially if it’s more about asking them to do something for someone else.

[00:28:10] Nina: . Okay. Those were the five elements, of being a more generous friend from your article. Was there anything we didn’t hit anything in the piece or just that you’ve been thinking about since we’ve been talking as we wrap up that you would like to leave the listeners with?

[00:28:21] Emma: I’d say start small. If this is feeling overwhelming, if this is like, wow, five things is a lot of things you could pick One of these things. You could pick a small act that is tangible and try that. I always think, when we break things down it just makes it easier. So if you take anything from this, it’s like, maybe do one generous thing this week.

and try that and see how it feels because the thing about generosity and there’s so much research on this, I linked in my article. When we act more generously we feel better So there’s a lot in it for you, too

[00:28:57] Nina: That’s great. And it connects to the way I end every episode, I know you know, because you’re a listener, . when our friendships are going well, we are happier all around. And I think generosity leads to better friendships, which leads to your own happiness. . It makes sense Emma, thank you for being a two time guest. You’re such a great friendship thinker and writer, and I’m just glad to have you as part of the, the bigger canon of my shows now.

[00:29:20] Emma: Thank you so much, Nina. I really admire your work. I’m a supporter and I will be listening and I’m just thrilled always to get to sit and talk with you.

[00:29:29] Nina: All right. Listeners. We’ll see you next time.