[00:00:00] Nina: I actually got a lot of messages, on this topic from my Facebook group, I want to read a few

[00:00:04] Dr. Arielle: I would love to hear some questions.

[00:00:06] Nina: I put on there basically that you were coming on I might have intimated in the way I wrote the question that I don’t really talk about sex that much.

[00:00:14] Dr. Arielle: I will say, Nina, that you’re talking about it well, I have

[00:00:18] Nina: thanks!

[00:00:19] Dr. Arielle: You seem super confident about talking about it. And I think that’s the number one key too is, how do we talk about this with comfort, with confidence, with just asking? Welcome to Dear Nina, Conversations About Friendship. I’m your host, Nina Badzin. I’ve been writing about friendship since 2014, a little over 10 years. And today’s topic makes me blush a little, which is why I know it’s important to do. I was contacted on Instagram by Dr. Arielle Buch-Frolic.

[00:00:52] Nina: A clinical psychologist who specializes in sex and relationships. She helps individuals. She helps couples she looked through my episodes and saw immediately that I had not done any on friends talking about their sex lives. Right away, I was like, that’s true, probably because that’s not something I’m comfortable talking about. Let’s just rip off the bandaid and get to it. Hi, Dr. Ariel. Welcome to Dear Nina.

[00:01:46] Dr. Arielle: Well, thank you for having me. I think, this is such, an amazing podcast I think as adults, we’re all a little lonely sometimes, And we’re questioning what is normal in terms of friends, do I have enough friends? Am I making enough friends?

All those kinds of questions come to mind. it’s amazing to have a podcast that answers to the truth in terms of, what we’re all thinking and questioning. Adding the sex part in, brings in, what a lot of people are going through in life in terms of questioning their relationships

[00:02:15] Nina: Thank you for saying that. Before we get really to what’s going to be the thesis of this episode, which is that perhaps our sex lives as we get older would stay better, healthier, more robust, or we’d have better feelings about it or be less unsure about it if we were talking about it with our friends: and we’re going to work our way there. Who comes to see you, what issues bring them in?

[00:02:38] Dr. Arielle: my primary hat is sex and couples therapy. that’s where all my training was, and that’s what I do. I’m a clinical psychologist. I help couples, and I also help individuals navigate the sexual space and the relationship space. I help a lot of couples navigate, parenthood. so from fertility through pregnancy through postpartum.

And also on the other side of, kids are moving out, you’re empty nesters, and you’re looking at each other like, Oh! We’re still here. Well, now what? but in that, you know, I’m talking about relationships in general. How to get along with your in laws, with other people in your life and friendships, That’s a huge piece for, anyone and everyone, especially once you leave college. once you’re in your thirties forties andfifties and beyond, what space does friendship take?That’s something I talk about all the time.

[00:03:27] Nina: Tell me a little bit moreabout the patterns you’re seeing of a connection between how much people are talking about their sex lives with their friends and Struggles they may be having in their sex life

[00:03:37] Dr. Arielle: I’ll start by saying one of the reasons why I went into sex therapy is because I want to help people in need. sex is such a taboo subject that people struggle alone. they’re not talking about it with their friends.

They’re not talking about it with parents. They’re not getting sexual education necessarily. And so they’re struggling and saying, is this normal? Am I supposed to experience this?

that’s why, I made it my mission to help people where they’re struggling in silence. to answer that in a roundabout way, yes, I think there is space to talk about sex and friendships. I think it’s hard to navigate, And I think it depends where in your development you are, right? Whether you’re in your teens, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, et cetera, I think it changes. I think we need to talk about it more so it’s not so taboo.

[00:04:27] Nina: I’m reflecting as you’re talking about how I’ve learned everything I know in life from my friends, from an early age, it takes a village and at all ages it’s like somebody goes another step before you do. You learn about it.

It’s like, this is how we learn about these things all the way from, teen years. And then even when I was trying to have a baby, I feel like the friends who are just ahead of me were the ones who taught me things that I had no reason to know before just about fertility and about The exact right days and I mean almost felt like village times I mean now I’ve used the word village twice before I meant more like metaphorically it takes a village but now I’m actually picturing old times where you had a peer or maybe an older person teach you exactly, what you had to do.

I don’t mean like the physicality of actually having sex, although there is a place for that too, but what things should be like when it’s the right time for your body to get pregnant. so it’s not sexy, but it is informational. And the other extreme I feel like that’s happening now and I’m 48, about perimenopause it does relate to sex too, but more rounded than that, hormones and which doctors to see we are All confused out here, at least my friends in different cities. And I’m calling people in other cities and finding out who they go to.

I’ve, seen multiple doctors. Nobody has one answer. So it’s like, you have to count on your friends to know, like, is it time? Do we wait till we have more symptoms to go on hormones? So confusing. I know that’s not the topic here, but it’s the same idea of how do you do this without your friends? You wrote me and just talking about it now, I was like, gosh, that’s true. Some friends do talk about sex, though. So have you seen that? Have you suggested it to clients?

[00:06:06] Dr. Arielle: whenever I have an intake, of a new client, one of the pieces that we go through is sex education. In terms of talking about how did you learn about sex? And I’m not talking about the birds and the bees of, like you said, the exact mechanics of it. Right? But I’m talking about, when did we learn that this was dirty? Or this was taboo? Or this was acceptable? Or this was, hey, yeah, high five in the locker room.

How did we get there? in terms of what my clients tell me, during adolescence, almost all their information came from their peers. Now, was that appropriate information? Was it correct information? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. unfortunately, depending on where you are in the world, you might have actual sex ed and you might not, a lot of people rely on their friendships or peers, to tell them what’s up, I think sex is something that a lot of people talk about with their friends. There’s a lot of references about it in the media.

There’s talk about the one night stand you just had. And, all these kinds of stories that are fun and exciting. Who do you go to, you go to your roommates, you go to your best friends, And you turn to them to talk about it,

The later years, right, going in your 30s, where, like you said, you’re starting to have babies and you’re starting to navigate fertility, navigate the postpartum space, right? Somehow, we’ve lost the, are we able to talk about sex, right? I know for myself and my peer group, and from my clients, Right?

Often, we’re capable of talking about really gruesome things, right? We’ll talk about our birth stories. We’ll talk about everything else in the body, but somehow we shy away from sex. I think that’s too bad in terms of it’s a missed opportunity, first of all, to connect with your friends in terms of saying, you know, I’m being vulnerable right now and I’m sharing something uncomfortable.

Or I’m also maybe sharing something amazing, There could be fun times too, And then there’s also the other piece of if you are struggling, And you don’t know, for example, that, it’s normal to feel disengaged from your partner after you’ve had a baby,

[00:08:15] Nina: Or it’s normal to have vaginal pain. After you’ve had a delivery, All these kinds of things, or that it’s normal as we age, As you were talking about perimenopause and menopause, Our bodies are changing, our hormones are changing, sex is changing, Our partners, whether they’re male or female, they might be changing, There could be, things like erectile disorders, or difficulties. There could be ejaculation problems. There could be anything, right? And when we talk to our friends about it, first of all, it’s a safe space. Actually, that’s interesting. I think, that’s. where in the problem lies, there’s two potential issues that would keep people from talking about this issue in particular, but really anything that’s vulnerable, that would be if you don’t trust that it wouldn’t be repeated.

Is there anyone in your life you really feel like you could talk about this stuff with? I probably have a few, I feel I have a lot of close friends, but I wouldn’t you know, I’m lucky. I don’t say that. I, and I don’t take that for granted, but I work hard at my friendships.

Clearly I’ve made a whole podcast about it, but that doesn’t mean that I would feel comfortable for the second reason I’m going to bring up, which isn’t necessarily about trust. I have far more friends I could trust than I speak to about sex and that is because it involves someone they know. That is a question. I’m curious what you say to clients. At what point are you crossing a line with your partner who maybe is assuming that you’re keeping these things private, even if they’re positive, it’s sort of like not maybe other people’s business.

I mean, that’s clearly the point of view I come from, I would probably flip out if he were talking about things. The privacy issue that’s real so trust on one hand privacy on the other I could trust my friends But still find the information too private.

[00:09:58] Dr. Arielle: the number one barrier, from my work and from my peers and from what I see in society is, are we crossing a boundary in terms of these are friends who know my partner, And what are they going to think about my partner,

Or what are they going to see on the other side When they are introduced to our intimacy? Are they going to judge us? Is it going to be awkward? Is it going to be weird? I think all these questions come up. as you mentioned is my partner okay with me divulging intimate details of our life?

So yeah, that’s definitely a conundrum. And I often talk about it in therapy, with my clients, in terms of talking about safe support, in terms of talking about the fact that, yes, we have to respect our partners. We wouldn’t want to do anything that crosses a line with them, we also want to respect ourselves and our friendships too, if someone’s not comfortable hearing about your sex life with the partner they know, then clearly that’s not a line you can cross. But at the same time, we have to balance that, with the value of sharing.

What would be the value of having a support system? a safe place, where, you know, you can trust the person where that person’s okay with either maybe having a relationship with your partner and knowing these details, or maybe not having a relationship with your partner and someone that you kind of keep separate from your, intimate life.

That’s something we weigh out who can you trust, I’m not suggesting that you go blabbing to every single acquaintance that you meet. How do you figure out that line and find a core person or group of people, Who you can turn to and can talk about these things. And it might be the same people as who you talked about it in college, Who move with you to your thirties and then they move with you to your forties and fifties and sixties and beyond And for some people they don’t have that,

And so again, that’s something that we talk about in therapy is how do we build you a support system, How do we navigate that piece without crossing anyone’s boundaries?

[00:12:06] Nina: Yeah, you know another thing I’ve seen also is People get divorced or if they’re just single the whole time. Later into life 30s 40s 50s. They don’t necessarily want to be like the entertainment for the married people who feel they have nothing new to add to the conversation and maybe turn to the single friend, whether they’ve been single, the whole time or newly divorced.

And it’s like, everybody wants to hear about that person’s. sex life. I could see somebody growing resentful of being the person who’s providing the fodder if the other people aren’t sharing.

[00:12:36] Dr. Arielle: 100%. I think that’s a judgment call in terms of saying, first of all, are you the person sharing the details of your intimate life, Whether or not you’re in a relationship and who’s your audience. what is, the reasoning behind sharing?

[00:12:52] Nina: Is it to get closer to the other person? Is it to be vulnerable and feel safe talking about your experiences? Is it to seek advice? Is it to thrill? Is it to be the storyteller and say, Oh yeah, I’ve got these amazing stories Yeah.

[00:13:08] Dr. Arielle: Right. But you know, I think the flip side is true too. I think married people, we get into this bubble of, Disney’s happily ever after. Where everything has to be perfect because we’re married now and that’s just. The way it’s supposed to bethere might be a hesitation of sharing with your single friends this is the reality of our sex life. That yes sometimes is good and sometimes we might feel disconnected. the sharing going both ways recognizing that the grass is not always greener on the other side. And again the judgment piece about why am I sharing these details

[00:13:44] Nina: and who’s my audience in terms of making sure that there’s someone that you do trust. I definitely think that single people and married people can be friends and can be sharing these details of their lives, with an equal back and forth. And I think the main important piece is to make sure that you have someone that you can trust fully with your intimate life, so that both of you feel like you’re able to share and both of you are able to feel welcome in that space.

When you said grass is greener, it made me think of another, issue that could come up when friends talk about sex as opposed to issues that come up if they don’t talk about it. there can be, somebody who is divulging that their partner always wants to in a complaining kind of way This is where the grass is greener comes in. Anyone else who isn’t being pursued by their partner it’s hard not to compare and despair, you know that expression and then the the opposite could be true, too, where somebody who’s like doesn’t want to as much and maybe they would prefer a relationship where their partner was satisfied with less. Neither right or wrong.

[00:14:42] Nina: You hear how someone else is doing something and it’s like, Oh, it doesn’t have to be that way. these could be good things where you learn another way to be, but it definitely could be a way that people end up feeling bad about their situation and they might not have otherwise.

These are the things that I think sometimes do get in the way of it real conversations because the second someone feels competitive or on edge or judged, right? It kind of shuts down.

[00:15:03] Dr. Arielle: first of all, I want to say that all those experiences are normal. They’re all part of the normal human sexuality spectrum that we’re seeing in terms of desire, in terms of, where you fit on the spectrum, where in your life you are, As in, this might affect you when you’re 20 and not when you’re 50, or vice versa,

We’re constantly changing. We’re human beings who adapt over time, and our bodies grow, and change. human sexuality follows in the same way.it goes back to the judgment piece, and when I say judgment, I don’t mean judging somebody else, but I meanfor yourself acknowledging, am I making the right call talking to this particular person?

Is this who I want to be sharing these details with? Will it be well received? Or will I feel worse after sharing? Or will I feel shame after sharing? those are all things that, in therapy, I would talk about evaluating. How do you evaluate who you’re choosing to be part of your support network, so that you leave feeling good about yourself and good about the fact that you shared and vice versa, that that person is happy that you shared and that they were able to empathize with your situation.

[00:16:12] Nina: So good. Your clients are lucky to have you I find you very easy to listen to and just reasonable and rational. So interesting that you ended up in this particular field of therapy. I’m curious how if you’re comfortable sharing here in this very open public space how you ended up. I assume you go to school and it starts out more general before you specialize.

[00:16:34] Dr. Arielle: I always knew this was my calling. I just had an interest in romantic relationships. I see people suffering in silence and I want to help them and create a safe space for them. they can come and seek me out and they can get help that they need. Because we’re not talking about these things enough, There’s so much taboo, so many, feelings of shame or feelings of, oh, this must be abnormal or this must not be okay. That we don’t have places that we can really turn to. That’s also my hope in doing

this podcast and maybe others in the future is to spread awareness. Awareness of the fact that we can get help, that things can feel normal, even if they’re not feeling good right now, you can get to a place where it’s feeling better. in terms of my training, even from undergrad, my original thesis way back in 2008, was on Facebook.

And on romantic relationships and how you saw ambiguity in posts and whether or not you felt jealousy. So, even back then, in my undergrad, I was always interested in what romantic relationships look like, how they look like online, how they look like, in terms of, how are youfinding a partner?

Are you finding a partner online? Are you finding them through friends? part 2 for me was, the perinatal mental health piece. after I finished my degree, after I did all my clinical training, which was focused in sex and couples therapy, I had a baby myself and navigated the fertility journey, and the postpartum piece, during COVID lockdown, and it was really hard.

It was awful. I was looking around to find support for myself, where can I find therapy? Where can I find someone experienced in this? I did find a few who really helped me out personally, but overall, it was lacking. Not many, did it from a couple’s lens, looking at the couple and seeing how they’re navigating this together. at that point, I made it my mission. I went to get more training in perinatal mental health. I’m hopefully soon going to be doing other training in terms of the menopause piece, Yeah,

[00:18:37] Nina: You like a star. there’s just not a lot out there. I mean, there’s some, and the people do rise to the top. if you have good information and you’re able to deliver it, you can really help a lot of people, especially nowadays you can reach people easily.

[00:18:51] Dr. Arielle: I made it my mission to help with the perinatal piece. and also, the cancer piece. after having cancer and survived cancer, What is your sexual health looking like? What’s your relationship health looking like what’s your fertility health looking like? These are all spaces that I’m navigating as a therapist at this point in terms of, making it my mission to help as many people as I can in topics that are silenced. And that are taboo.

[00:19:16] Nina: It’s great you’re doing this work. I have one other subtopic I want to talk about, I have a little theory. Think about the popularity of so many romance novels now that are really more, dark fantasies. I read the entire court of thorns series. I don’t know if you know this one. This takes place in sort of a fairy world and human world and then there’s mixings of humans and fairies and it’s like a whole thing. Very Sexy, I mean, there’s lots of books lots of series and people are nuts for them of all ages. I learned about it from my nieces and from a friend this friend and I often trade these titles back and forth and it’s interesting Because it’s not like we talk about sex.

I have not talked about sex with my friend, although we both love these kinds of books and we recommend them to each other. We know each like them. It’s almost like the closest we can get to talking about sex is acknowledging that like, Oh, you like these books.

I like these books. And not everyone does. I mean, those kinds of books aren’t for everyone. So it’s sort of like a nod to your friend. Or I have friends, I recommend shows to, they recommend to me. Once I’ve watched it and I’m like, Whoa, it’s part of these, like, I can’t believe I know she watched that.

I can’t believe she knows I watched that. But it is kind of nice to share that without talking about it. It’s like we’re talking about it through art, through shows, through books it’s the closest we can get to having a real conversation.

[00:20:33] Dr. Arielle: Yeah, I think it’s testing the waters, It’s kind of like putting your little tippy toe out and saying, Hey, is this safe? kind of like a pond that’s frozen over, You’re putting your foot on and you’re saying, is this gonna crack?

Am I gonna go through and I’m gonna sink? Or is this actually ice and I can actually skate beautifully on it, It’s the same way in terms of your friendships.

[00:20:52] Nina: that’s great advice for people building friendships, in general, on any topic. A little bit at a time. I often tell people in many episodes, you’re not really looking to make a best friend or a close friend at first when you’re feeling lonely in life. Starting with a friend and it starts in these small ways it builds. it’s hard because I know when people are lonely there’s a lack of patience because you’re feeling it now But time is necessary for a true connection to build.

[00:21:17] Dr. Arielle: that’s, where we get a filter from, In terms of we learn to filter, okay, what’s appropriate to talk about, when is it appropriate to talk about. And if friendship isn’t the place where you can talk about it, then therapy is an amazing space to be able to have that too. And then maybe to learn how to navigate those friendships in therapy, and then you go back out to the world and you make appropriate friends.

[00:21:38] Nina: it’s so true. There is absolutely a place for therapy. sometimes I forget to say that in episodes or in my Facebook group. I actually got a lot of messages, on this topic from my Facebook group, I want to read a few

[00:21:49] Dr. Arielle: I would love to hear some questions.

[00:21:51] Nina: I put on there basically that you were coming on I might have intimated in the way I wrote the question that I don’t really talk about sex that much.

[00:21:59] Dr. Arielle: I will say, Nina, that you’re talking about it well, I have

[00:22:03] Nina: thanks!

[00:22:04] Dr. Arielle: You seem super confident about talking about it. And I think that’s the number one key too is, how do we talk about this with comfort, with confidence, with just asking? That’s for in friendships, but it’s also, for other health professionals, for anyone who is helping people out. Can we start the conversation more about sex in terms of is everything okay?

[00:22:25] Nina: okay, I feel, I’m going to take that compliment with me all day. and then someone else said, every couple in their marriage decides what type of birth control is best for them. This seems like a very personal decision and can be judged when people talk about sex with girlfriends. How can women in their 40s navigate this? I feel like this judgment is one of the reasons women don’t talk about sex with friends. someone else said, I’ve never really talked with my friends about my sex life.

So it’s interesting to think if I should do it more as I age. Of the few friends who mention it, they mostly talk about how they aren’t having sex anymore. since my husband and I still do have regular sex and enjoy our sex life after being married 27 years, it would feel weird to talk about it more.

My one friend that does bring it up occasionally says I’m the only person she knows who still has sex in a long term relationship. someone else said, I’m 55 and talking about sex more than ever. A lot more than I’m actually doing it . And I wrote on there to her, I’m quoting that. the last one was, since I’ve had a group of female friends, we started talking about the topic of sex. I hadn’t done that before.

For many years I didn’t have close friends like this. But the closer our friendship has become, the more we talk about it. Mostly it’s about how things are so different after 20 years of marriage and what could be improved. I love that she said that because I think it’s a really good point that you’ve been making all along here in this episode, which is it’s not necessarily you just talk about it with anybody. You have to test the waters.

[00:23:46] Dr. Arielle: Maybe talking more about what’s normal in terms of, you know, we hear about the ones who are not having sex in older relationships precisely for the reason that the person brought up with feeling, shame, right? There’s that piece of shame of, am I bragging or do I have a right to complain if somebody else has it worse off because they’re not having sex at all. I should be lucky that at least I’m having sex. Whereas if we brought it to a place where it’s not, yes, I’m having sex versus no, I’m not, but fleshing it out and talking more about our experiences in terms of, maybe I am having sex, but it feels different than the sex I had 20 years ago.

Maybe I am having sex, but our relationship itself is rocky. As in there’s all kinds of places that you can go with this, It’s not a, yes, I passed the green light and my life is perfect, versus, nope, red light, I’m not having sex anymore and everything’s terrible. But I think we need to normalize these experiences more so that people feel welcome to be able to talk about their experience.

They’re not hearing everything in black and white in terms of, oh, well, most people I know don’t have sex, so I should be lucky that I am having sex. maybe there’s so many people who are having sex who don’t feel comfortable about coming out and saying I’m having sex. there’s a lot more of us than we think.

And, you know, someone talked about the judgment piece and I think, if we each took it upon ourselves to stop the judging. If we came about it with more empathy, and if we came about it as seeing the person as a person and not about what birth control they’re choosing or opting to do And at least if we start with a no judgment zone, I’m hopeful that more people will do it too.

[00:25:30] Nina: I’m curious about that particular question that a listener wrote in your 40s. I just can’t imagine Caring at all what anybody’s birth control, of all the different things to be concerned with that your friends are up to, but, whatever, I guess that’s a friendship issue

I think she may be having with that person that is completely beyond the topic of sex. red flag There’s probably other judgment issues in there. Okay. Dr. Ariel, thank you so much for coming here and bringing your wisdom to my show

[00:25:58] Dr. Arielle: thank you so much for connecting with me. I enjoyed engaging with your social media page and listening to the other podcasts as well. even psychologists, we’re not perfect either. we also have our own inner qualms about friendships, romantic relationships and sex So your podcast is definitely helpful.

[00:26:15] Nina: Oh, that’s so nice. That’s such a big compliment. I will have all of the places you can find all this great positive sex information. Come back next week when our friendships are going well, we are happier all around.

Bye.