Harlan: [00:00:00] whether you’re in kindergarten or you are 90 years old. It’s the same. You wanna put yourself in places where you are welcome and included, simply because you exist where there’s no barrier to entry. And if you use this as a strategy throughout your life, you’re always gonna put yourself in places and you’re gonna meet people. A weird thing happens is people age, their friends get sick and sadly die. it’s a terrible thing. And when your friends pass, and you don’t have other friends. How do you find people? You put yourself in places where you can align, share your light, your interests with younger people, who are gonna live a long time. That’s what this is the law of rejection when it comes to life. We don’t get to live forever. We’re constantly faced with challenges when it comes to forming relationships. No one really teaches us how to do this.

Nina: This is what I’m trying to do too. So you, you make me feel like good in my mission. ’cause that is my mission. It

Harlan: right? If that’s what’s driving [00:01:00] you, then I get, really in your face, we’ve talked long enough to be honest with you. It’s like, Nina, what are you doing?

Nina: Welcome to Dear Nina, conversations about friendship. I am your host, Nina Badzin. I’ve been writing about friendship for over a decade, podcasting about it for almost four years. We are joined today by a fantastic guest. You are going to get so many nuggets out of this. Harlan Cohen is a master in talking about rejection and risk-taking in friendship and in life. He specializes, lately, although he is written really for all kinds of audiences in college students. He has a fantastic program for college students and parents getting you through that first year. He has over a million and a half followers on social media. People look to Harlan for how to get through those very predictably tough, and it doesn’t matter how predictable it is, they’re still tough moments socially, [00:02:00] academically, and the list goes on. But this is really a show for adults about adult friendship. we are going to take those lessons that he focuses on for college kids and extrapolate it to all adults really of any age.

And really teens too. This always applies to teens, trying to manage their friendships and their feelings of rejection and the risk taking necessary to make new friends and to try something else. Harlan is a voice of reason. I watch his videos all the time because he reminds you, you’re not alone, and here’s what you can do to move on to the next step. This is a very deep conversation. I hope you get a lot out of it. I got a lot out of it for my own life, there’s so many things I could be doing better for my own self and sense of sometimes failure or rejection and, and how to grow from it. We talk about the law of rejection, being the inviter and the planner all the time, being the non planner, and then also how and why to find activities and clubs, whether an adult or a teen, [00:03:00] where you only need to be yourself to join. there’s no audition, there’s no essay to write. I’m thinking, you know, versus a fraternity or sorority, for thinking in the college context. Even getting into college, having to get into a certain college.

There are things out there you can do where you simply just show up and be yourself, and those are the kind of things you want to look for, especially if you’re struggling socially.

Harlan Cohen is the New York Times bestselling author of The Naked Roommate and 107 Other issues you might run into in college, and six other titles with over a million and a half copies in print. Like I said, his social media accounts have over a million and a half followers, and he hosts a popular podcast with his name in the title. I’ll have it linked in the show notes. He’s the founder of the Best First year, a college success coaching program for students and parents. Harlan lives in Chicago, with his wife and three children, harlan, welcome to Dear Nina. I’m so excited to have you!

Harlan: Well, it’s wonderful to be here. I’m always looking for a new friend, and I know that this is a new relationship, so to jump right in and say [00:04:00] friendship, maybe at the end we’ll determine if we’re friends I don’t know what the threshold is for you.

Nina: Well, you may not realize this, but we’re in a parasocial friendship already because I devour so many of your videos and I recommend them to people because I have two of my four kids are the age of really the audience you’re speaking to, although you’re also speaking to parents, so you’re speaking to me. So thank you. Just thank you for all the work you do.

Harlan: well, I am grateful and I’m just so lucky to have the chance to visit with you.

Nina: What I wanted to talk to you about you talk a lot about risk taking and rejection for college kids specifically. But because my audience, first of all, not all parents, some are and don’t necessarily kids that age, many of us though, have been that age and I wanna talk about some of your top pieces of advice.

For college kids about risk taking and about rejection, but as it pertains to what we can learn from it for our own friendships, and I thought we would start with your law of rejection.

Harlan: I am obsessed with rejection. I’m [00:05:00] obsessed with it because when we can be friends with rejection and allow rejection to walk side by side with us instead of being so worried about what other people think and getting stuck in the shame cycle of I’m not enough, we’re really able to use rejection as a tool to reflect and to continue to be thoughtful, present and the best version of ourselves.

and the college piece, I just wanted to make it clear. I spent a lot of time helping students to navigate college change. And if you think about college and that time in people’s life, it’s social, emotional, physical, financial and academic changes, and then professional changes.

But especially when a student is starting that first year, it’s those big five changes. And they’re navigating this over the course of a few weeks. It’s extended throughout the year, but it’s really like a few weeks.

they don’t have, especially if they’re not local, the same support systems in [00:06:00] place. they’re having to find their people and find their places. So to set that up, that’s what I’ve been studying for 30 plus years. what’s happened is the framework, and I, and I talk a lot about this in my book, Win or Learn, the risk taking framework that includes the law of rejection is a fundamental part of all of our lives. So it’s what I use, I do professional development. I’ll work with, with, corporations. I’ll work with students, I work with parents, I work with administrators.

that’s kind of framework. So Nina, I wanted to set that up and I know that was, was a mouthful, but it’s really important because the law of rejection, and I just want to give this, the attention it deserves, also referred to as the universal rejection truth says that not everyone and everything will always respond to me the way I always want. Not everybody’s gonna always include me, appreciate me, desire me, date me, hire me and respect me the way that I would like to be acknowledged. It is a law of nature. do you, uh, respect this law of nature that it [00:07:00] exists or acknowledge it?

Nina: yes. And I struggle with it though. So I have to, even as an adult who studies friendship, has been writing about friendship for over a decade and helps other people with friendship, still have to remind myself that just because I want to be friends with somebody, it doesn’t mean that it’s going to be reciprocated. Or even if we are friends, just because I want the relationship to go a certain way. Or I think about birthdays as a good example. I might treat friends a certain way on their birthday, it doesn’t mean it’s going to be Exactly, and that’s, and it doesn’t mean they’re rejecting me.

But that’s my, that’s the challenge actually, is to not see something as rejection. That’s not rejection. It’s just people doing life the way they do life. I try to help people with that a lot. That actually something that we might see as rejection isn’t rejection, it’s just other people not being controlled by how we think things should be done.

They just do friendship differently.

Harlan: Exactly, there’s probably a lot of truth in the reason that you focus so much on this is because you also probably struggled and have questions. And [00:08:00] the more you can dive into it, the more you can appreciate the different variables that are connected to not always getting the outcome you want.

you don’t internalize it and personalize it, which is, why I’ve been obsessed with rejection my whole life is because, you know, I really struggled with it. And as someone who’s ADHD diagnosed late in my life, that’s not feeling enough, wanting to be validated, affirmed, all those things have made it something I’ve really studied.

even with what you’re talking about and the connection of friendship and expectations. I look at the link and I was writing some notes. I write notes when I, when I talk. One of the biggest problems, and we could even tie this to college, is roommates. Expectations with roommates and the role friendship plays in establishing that relationship and having expectations.

So I don’t know about, you were, were you friends with your college roommate?

Nina: We were friends, but we had different groups of friends. And I think you and I went to college in a time when when people had random roommates. And maybe you filled out something that would [00:09:00] possibly pair you with somebody with some similarities. there wasn’t the expectation. I’ve done an episode on the difference between, roommates, neighbors, you know, even cousins let’s say, and friends. A friendship is something you choose. And a roommate’s its own special relationship, if you can have the right expectation, but it’s just a roommate. It doesn’t have to be a

Harlan: friend.

Yeah. it doesn’t, and I think that’s where a lot of parents, get a little confused or disappointed and find problems. And it’s where a lot of students get disappointed and, and find a lot of problems because living with someone, for a lot of students, the expectation is we’re gonna have a friendship.

And when I talk to students who are graduating or even in college, it’s, roommates are people you share space with to help with the costs of college and anything in addition to coexisting is a bonus. That is, you know, a hard concept for some people to recognize because friendship is not required.

And the reason why I really like to emphasize this, of course I did everything wrong. remind me to tell you about my first college roommate. ’cause there’s a great twist.

Nina: Oh, I [00:10:00] can’t wait.

Harlan: Oh, it’s so good. It’s so good. but this idea that if I walk into a situation and we can then pull this to 10,000 feet, this isn’t just about roommates.

If I walk into a new situation, whether I’m recently retired and I’m going to a community center, or someone’s introducing me to some friends because I’ve relocated, there’s this expectation that we’re gonna have some sort of relationship. with friendship, especially with roommates, friends are required to invite you to meals.

They are required to introduce you to their friends and the people they spend time with. they are required to listen to you and acknowledge your feelings and be respectful and supportive. There’s a long list of things that friends are required to do, and when you have people who are put in a new situation, dealing with all these changes. On top of all these changes, the person they’re living with, Has this list of requirements, which they don’t even acknowledge or think about because they’re just things that we don’t spend a lot of time thinking about. We don’t think about [00:11:00] friendships, really, or what our expectations are. So you have these people who are in this space, and while they might think that they’re gonna be friends, or even the expectation, it’s the expectation, but it’s the requirement.

It’s the expectation without any room for unwanted outcomes. that’s where it becomes a requirement. And when that person doesn’t say or do those things, then people have hurt feelings. And the point is when we walk into a situation and we require people to say or do certain things, we open ourselves up to getting very hurt very quickly, and roommates and friendships and just friendships in general are very connected to that concept.

Nina: this I think, connects to something you and I both speak about a lot. I’ve seen a lot of your videos on it, and it’s probably my number one topic as well, On the SEO side of my website, it’s always interesting to see, how people land on my website. I mean, you can’t really see that so much on social media, but just on like your old fashioned website, I can see that people get to me through [00:12:00] searching

anything along these lines. I’m always the first to text.

I’m always the first to initiate plans. If I didn’t reach out first, we probably wouldn’t be friends.

Like these are the expressions people are Googling to land on my site just ’cause I’ve had so much content on that. And it just also shows me that it’s a real issue out there.

Everyone’s not the planner. There are people out there that aren’t, but I only hear from the people who are the planners. And you talk about planning a lot, I want to tie this again to expectations rejection, you have a lot to say about it.

Harlan: there’s a foundational approach to this that really protects people from being, resentful, angry, upset, and I want to touch on that and then, address that specific question. I share this approach of people, places, patience, you know, people, places, patience.

You wanna make sure you have at least three places in your life, regardless of where you are, where you are accepted included, where you have a sense of purpose, where there’s things that you do that interest you and lights you up. at least three places. You know, this is one of your places, this is one of the things you do.

You get to meet [00:13:00] interesting people, it lights you up. it’s a wonderful thing. There’s places and then there are people. Who are the people in your corner? And when you think about people who are in a time of change or this epidemic of loneliness. we have a hard time meeting people. We don’t really know how friendships form and how people establish those relationships, but we need to make sure we have people.

when I say, who are the people in your corner? people who you, are related to people who you have common interests with. Work relationships, romantic relationships, friends of friends, things relating to spiritual activities, volunteering. People, places patience and just to make sure with the places piece, places are where you sweat, play prey, live, learn lead, love, and work. Sweat, play prey, live, learn, lead, love, and work. And then patience is the ability to tolerate discomfort while going after the things you want. for me to answer your question of someone who’s the planner, the initiator, there are people who are planners and initiators, and there are people who are more reactive and [00:14:00] responsive, and those are different roles. And sometimes the planner doesn’t wanna always do the planning, and the person who is being invited, you know, maybe they want to do something a little bit different.

the question is, well, okay, if you’re tired of planning, this idea of I’m always planning, I’m the one making the first move. I’m the one taking the risk. The risk of getting rejected, the risk that someone isn’t gonna be responsive, eventually that wears me down. I want to be welcome and included and invited.

Right? So if that’s how you feel, where are the places you could put yourself, where the dynamics are going to be such that you don’t need to be the planner. If you’re tired of planning, then stop planning. Put yourself in a different place where you take on a different role where it’s very clear you just have to show up.

Nina: Yes. I love that. cause it’s also not being kind of a victim about it, like and also, right? Yes,

Harlan: and this is where we get to the law of rejection, which I also call the universal rejection truth. The law of rejection says not everybody is a planner, [00:15:00] not everybody i is going to be the person you want them to be. you can fight this truth and get angry and upset and resentful.

Or you can ask yourself, is it me? Am I the problem? is there some, something I could do? Or is it this law of rejection that there are different times in my life where there are gonna be different roles I fill

Nina: I really push a lot to not test your friends. but one step further is what you’re saying is just accept that some people aren’t planners and I say don’t test your friends. ’cause if you are someone who has helped create a dynamic ’cause I think it takes two where you’re always the one who reaches out. If you just randomly with no communication.

You never say to your friend, Hey, I would really love it if once in a while you reached out. I, feel self-conscious that it’s always me. If you could reach out sometimes I think that’s something you can say, but if you choose to not say that and you test your friend, they’re gonna fail the test. If they have never shown to be somebody who reaches out and then you kind of just ghost them basically, and just to test, guess what?

They’re gonna fail. You have to either communicate about it or, I really like what you’re saying. Put yourself in a position where you [00:16:00] don’t have to be the planner, so that sometimes you don’t have to do the work.

Harlan: Exactly, and the risk is let’s say you tell that friend, Hey, you know, my feelings are hurt sometimes because I’m always the one initiating, I feel like I. nobody else is, or you aren’t. you know, I was more curious about that. I don’t know if you’ve noticed it too. That’s a very soft way of approaching it where, you’re not really being confrontational, you might have a, a friend that says, I thought you loved planning.

I don’t really like planning. it makes me uncomfortable. And also my life isn’t in a place where I can do that planning. As much as you want me to do the planning, I’m not gonna be able to do that. so now it’s like, okay, I told you what I need. You can’t do that. It’s two people being honest about how they feel.

You have a choice. You could accept that or you could have hurt feelings. the law of rejection says, you might have friends that are not gonna respond the way you want, so you accept them and appreciate them and you talk to them.

So I’m a big fan of the four agreements. I have these systems in place. I have, steps and systems and there are things that help me to stay [00:17:00] aligned and to just have some emotional equilibrium and, dealing with things where there aren’t always very clear cut rules.

the Four Agreements is a book and the four agreements, the first is be impeccable with your word. and then that conversation with the two friends that was being impeccable, you know, it wasn’t saying, you know, I’m always doing everything for you and you’re never thankful. And it’s like, that’s no, that’s projecting a lot of things that you’ve been thinking and assumptions you’ve been making.

So number one is be impeccable with your word. Number two is do not make assumptions. And we’re great at making assumptions and building storylines in our head that lead to a lot of resentment. Number three is don’t take things personally, and I might have mixed up the order, but we take things personally and especially when it comes to friendships,

there are a lot of assumptions that we make, and the assumptions lead to expectations. And if there’s no room for someone to respond any other way than the way we want them to respond, then we, we end up getting really [00:18:00] hurt. It leads to a lot of disconnect. The fourth is be your personal best. And it’s recognizing that on any day, we’re not always going to say and do the things we want to do.

We, we might lose our temper, we might be impatient, but when we’re our personal best, we can be imperfect recognizing, and this is where I love, like I’m doing a lot with this law of rejection. it’s great because if I can give myself permission to be flawed and imperfect and still be a wonderful human being, the law of rejection says I’m not, gonna always say or do the right things.

it’s really helped me to do the things I’m doing to be able to speak so freely because I’m not afraid of people thinking I’m stupid. Which I don’t even like the word, or thinking that I’m not articulate or thinking that I’m not as educated. ’cause the thing is I’m not gonna know as much as everybody. now we live in a time where if you don’t know something, there are so many ways to learn it. So why should I feel bad about it? It’s a law of rejection. So anyway, it makes it easy to approach situations where sometimes pride gets in the way or sometimes we make assumptions because the four [00:19:00] agreements, when I have a disagreement, and especially with friendships that are so sensitive and they cut so deep. These are people who oftentimes know you really well, and the idea that you know me and you don’t want to be around me makes me question who am I if you know me so well, but you don’t wanna be around me. But what we don’t recognize is a lot of times those people who are very close to us, they’re in different places. And I’m sure you’ve, you’ve touched on this, but you know, some friendships are meant to last a day and some are meant to last a lifetime.

that is the law of rejection when it comes to friendships. And the universe is more in charge after we do all the things within our power to communicate and to try and listen and understand.

Nina: I think a, a big pitfall a lot of people have is having a lot of understanding for why you yourself are ready to move on from a friendship. And a lot of times it’s just circumstantial. It’s not even that personal. I mean, maybe if, if you were crazy about this person, you would be friends no matter what, but life just takes you away in other ways.

[00:20:00] And so we know that. But then when somebody has that on their end of it, they got a job or they moved towns or they are in a different stage of life. It’s like now it’s ’cause something’s so wrong with us. So, and, and that is so true for so many things. Another topic where this all comes into play is including people versus not including people.

So, kind of similar to what I just said, sometimes we know that we didn’t include someone because we just wanted a quiet night. I’m thinking like now our age as opposed to college kids with similar issue, but they don’t have this one as much. Sometimes for me it’s about being able to hear. I’m 48 years old.

I, when I’m at a really loud restaurant with more than like three people, I’m straining. I am straining my inner ear. I’m like lip reading practically. Okay, well now if we have eight people forget it. so I don’t make plans as big as I used to. Am I not including people?

Am I exclusive? I’m just using myself as an example. One could look at it that way. a healthier way to look at it would be. I know I like to have quieter time, so therefore don’t other people. So I guess what I mean more is [00:21:00] I could look at other people and be like, well, why didn’t they include us in that New Year’s dinner?

Well, maybe they don’t wanna have 10 people. This is a real problem for adults. It’s not just for kids. Everybody wants to have quiet quality time with their friends, but they should be included in everybody else’s plans. Do you see what I’m

Harlan: Yeah, it’s, it’s, well, and now because of social media, it doesn’t, these are not teen issues. These are not college issues. These are life issues of the choices we make and how we communicate that. And if we choose to communicate it. And those are complicated at times. I think a lot of times we wanna avoid conflict.

As we get older, we tend to insulate ourselves, money, influence, these things create buffers so that we don’t have to deal with discomfort as much. And friendship is a different kind of dynamic and a different relationship. This is why I think, you know, we always need to be willing to listen and try to understand someone else’s point of view. And also accept the fact that if you don’t invite someone to a New Year’s dinner [00:22:00] and you value that friendship and you value that relationship, you might want to talk about it. you might wanna explain it because if you don’t, someone may not wanna spend time with you. Their feelings could be hurt.

are you someone who’s open to feedback? I think that’s also a big piece. there was something that you were saying before here, I’ll touch on two things just to finish that thought. If you’re open to feedback, a lot of times people don’t want to hear that they’ve hurt someone’s feelings, because especially if you’re someone who’s a pleaser and you love affirmation, the idea that someone is upset with you. It is so upsetting that you don’t want to hear it and someone doesn’t have a right to be because they don’t understand. But I’m a firm believer that if you are unhappy with me and we have a relationship that has value, I want to hear it. And you deserve to be heard, even if it’s painful for me to hear, even if I don’t agree with it, if that’s what you’re feeling and I care about you.

In terms of our history or our future or whatever, then I think that’s something valid. And that’s where, again, the law of rejection comes into play of if [00:23:00] I can give the people around me permission to not always think the way I think, to not always interpret things the way I intend them to be, to recognize that not everyone and everything is always gonna respond to me the way I always want, well then we are much more open to having sensitive conversations without feeling defensive or looking to blame someone.

Nina: That’s important. I always say it’s a gift to bring up something you’re upset about. I do think as a friend it is nice to let some things go. That’s why I brought up the example of, not always being included in like a dinner, let’s say. we cannot, get wrapped up in every single event do a little inner work on thinking of the times you wanted something smaller that, that’s why I brought that up. That, so maybe the other people also sometimes wanted something smaller. But if this is, let’s say, a repetitive thing and you, you’re always including someone and they never include you, it’s time to bring it up. And it is a gift you are bringing to this friendship to say, I care about this friendship enough to give you the opportunity to kind of explain yourself, not in an aggressive way, but I, I wanna understand like how you’ve [00:24:00] come to these decisions. I’ve been hurt by it.

Harlan: I love the word curiosity, and I love when we can approach something through this lens of curiosity as opposed to this lens of being very hurt and upset and having made assumptions. And that’s why like the four agreements, when you, when you use that as a framework, it’s like, okay, when it comes to making assumptions.

There’s a lot of storytelling that’s going on in my head that are leading me to have hurt feelings, but I don’t really know what is going on. So I’m gonna approach you through this lens of curiosity. I share this with college students, with, with teenagers who find their group shifting. You know, this, this question of, Hey, I’m just curious.

I’ve noticed that you’re, you’re not inviting me as much, I just wanted to have an understanding of what’s been going on, because I’m not, I’m not really sure, and it might be uncomfortable to share, but I really would, I’d really appreciate knowing if, if you can share with me, that’s curiosity, you know, in that, in that function of like with the friends. Of course you let things go, but if there’s things that are in that area [00:25:00] where you just can’t let it go, approaching it from a place of curiosity. Not like, Hey, I saw pictures of all of you together and my feelings were really hurt because, I, I’m the one that introduced you to this friendship,

Nina: Mm.

Harlan: um, and you didn’t, and you don’t include me, which someone could have those valid feelings, but a different approach is, you know, I saw some pictures and I was really curious because.

I feel very close to all of you. I was thinking, I really would’ve liked to have participated too. And I just wanted to get an understanding of just what, what happened, And then someone could say, oh, you know what, it was an impromptu situation. it was a business relationship. It was the mother-in-law invited us and we were there, and of course I would’ve included you.

And what we should all do is get together again and have it be the three of us. Oh, that makes a lot more sense.

Nina: That would be a very wonderful and gracious conversation on both sides. And it’s nice when you can have, honesty like that. I think it’s really important to communicate with your friends when you’re upset with [00:26:00] them and then you have to do, I think also the hard part of accepting you might not get, I.

Number one, the answer you want or an honest answer,

Harlan: Yeah. I mean, There are some people who can’t handle honest answers. Um, I think setting it up where you say, I know that what you might share could be uncomfortable, but it really is important for me to understand, you can only do so much to get somebody to feel comfortable sharing uncomfortable information.

but there’s this piece that’s so important and it’s really pivotal in all risk taking. It’s not being tied to the outcome. it’s how do I measure success in that conversation? I measure success in me presenting what’s happening, how I’m interpreting something, and being honest with my feelings, and providing someone who I care about information that they can do whatever they want with, and I’m not tied to the outcome.

I had this expression and it’s the idea that information is not emotional. Now, when I say information’s not emotional information is incredibly [00:27:00] emotionally triggering. It has a huge impact on us.

Tremendous. how we process that information is not right or wrong. how we’re programmed in our, our neural pathways. And there’s information that’s going to make my adrenaline start pumping and information that’s going to make me a little scared and information that’s gonna make me excited.

But the key is how do we separate our emotions from the information so that we can process the information and really try and understand what it is that’s being communicated. as we become more comfortable in our skin, more self-aware, we’re able to really think, wow, big feelings, big thing happening. that is huge emotions. What is the information that is triggering these big emotions, and is that information, how I’m interpreting it, accurate or not? a lot of times it’s not. and I think that’s the beauty of time, the beauty of friendships and romantic relationships where friendship is so tied to physical, [00:28:00] emotional, all those aspects. I’ve been married for 21 years. there are some days where information is big time emotional.

Nina: I’ve been married almost 25 years, I was like a child when you and I were like the same age. I was so young.

Harlan: Right. And that’s the ultimate exercise in, not being tied to outcomes. But what’s a little tricky about the marriage thing is there are certain expectations that are deal breakers, that are requirements. Those are things we agree upon, if those aren’t honored, that’s a problem. So we have to honor these. And the way I look at it is expectations and reality. So expectations are here if people are listening right now, it’s on the top of my head, expectations, realities at my chin in certain situations.

Sometimes we start a situation where reality and expectations are in alignment. Now my hands are both on my head because they’re matching. Sometimes reality exceeds expectations. When we have problems, that’s when expectations are on my chin, and reality is on my head, and there’s a gap. So when we are in that area where there’s a problem, [00:29:00] how can we communicate? How can we listen and how can we honor this idea that I may not get the outcome I want? My only responsibility is to communicate clearly and to listen without requiring someone to respond one way or another.

Nina: That’s so good. I think what the four agreements and the Law of rejection, all have in common is it all requires a ton of humility. Humility

Harlan: Yeah.

Nina: to just know. You don’t really know the whole story. That everybody comes with their own set of stories and expectations and desires and what they want out of a situation, and you don’t know anyone else’s completely, and you don’t get to control what other people want out of this situation, out of a friendship.

Harlan: it sets me free. It has totally set me free. even in my, professional life and in my personal life, had a tremendous amount of success just in terms of my social media just growing, and it’s really been a result of the humility and embracing the fact that I feel like I have something of value [00:30:00] to share, to offer.

No one is required to respond any other way than the way they wanna respond. Of course, I would like them to respond a certain way, which is why I probably didn’t do it for 20 years because I was so freaking scared. And I would speak and research and I have a lot of control.

And having control is wonderful up to a point. But then it became limiting. Covid came and, and it really shook me up in the sense of I have something of value and if I’m not sharing it, am I really being authentic?

Nina: I feel like you’re speaking to me directly because I’m at a funny point in my social media it’s grown a lot. It’s nowhere close to yours, but it’s grown a lot from where it was. I know what holds me back. It is worrying about what my actual friends and family think.

When I get out there and talk about friendship, friendship’s an awkward thing to talk about all the time because like I have real friends and I never want people to think I’m talking about them or I’m talking about their situations. I have such an easier time talking to strangers. And if you think about it, the podcast is a little bit of an easier venue for me. To get on social media that’s more in my friends’ [00:31:00] faces. People have made comments over the years here and there. Some certain family members have said stuff it kind of sits on my shoulder a little. when you said that about letting go and that is what, holds me back sometimes is that real life friends and family strangers are so much kinder sometimes and more generous.

Harlan: there’s not as much emotion connected to them ’cause they don’t really know you and there’s not as much at stake. And even for me, it’s like I didn’t post as much on Facebook. And you know, when I see people I know who know me, it would be uncomfortable, who am I to share this? And if it’s not in alignment with what you think? and this is the thing people say, I don’t care.

And I don’t say I don’t care. What I say is I don’t care to spend my time, energy, and emotion trying to figure it out to make everybody happy because I can’t be every thing to everyone. That’s the the law of rejection. And if you are someone who’s in my circle and you have a problem with what I’m sharing, then I hope you respect me enough to tell me.

so this idea, and these are things I do when I do speaking events. Say, listen, if I say or do anything [00:32:00] that makes you uncomfortable. ’cause a lot of people are coming here with different thoughts and ideas. I just talked to someone about an event I’m gonna be going to in a couple days. And I said, you know what?

I create an environment where respect is telling me if you don’t agree and making it safe. So for you. first of all, you don’t need to explain yourself. You also don’t need to tell friends anything so that they how to process and how to not be offended.

If you wanted to, you could, but the assumption of the people who are in your life who care about you and respect you, the relationship you have is if there’s something that comes up, they’ll share it with you. And if they don’t, you don’t need to spend your time and energy

Harlan: trying to make them happy or please them because it’s none of your business, because they’re not making it your business. and you might lose friends, but really, what kind of loss is that? it’s not important. I mean, you’re not saying terribly controversial things.

Nina: No, it’s more like I worry, like people are making fun of me for being on Instagram and TikTok in the first

Harlan: Yes, they’re, and they’re, always gonna make fun of you. They’re gonna make fun of you. [00:33:00] Yeah. They make fun of you. I get, yes,

Nina: That’s what I’m talking about. It’s not even what I’m saying. It’s literally just me being on there at all. Kind of this eye roll. Like who are you?

Harlan: Yeah. Jen Cicero has this, uh, great book. How to Be a Badass.

Nina: I read it a long, it’s been out a bit,

Harlan: She was talking about, marketing and friendship and sales and how, you know, she used to worry what people would think, but she’s like, I didn’t have any money. is being broke more important than, what people think? what’s more important, me being financially secure and being able to do things that align with what’s gonna help me, or, people thinking what they think. And this is also what’s helped me. I really understand what I’m doing and what I’m doing is I am providing an act of service. And my act of service is about helping people to get comfortable with the uncomfortable so they can navigate, change, find people, find places, be patient work, to tell stories that are going to help them to get where they want to go and to be forgiving of themselves. And I have these life experiences [00:34:00] that I’m so blessed to have and I share them that’s my job. That’s how I serve people. And if people have a problem with that and they don’t want to be served, then that’s fine. that’s okay. So you could think what you want to think. I even had this when I was doing college advice these people in college who knew me, they see me on Facebook and I used to be like, oh, what’s that person gonna think?

And here’s the thing. That’s wild, Nina. I have more people who have reached out to me, even people from high school that weren’t nice to me. people throughout my life, somehow they liked me, and I’m sure there are people who don’t like me and, that’s fine, doesn’t matter.

But there’s always people who, like me, and this has been the story of my life. I’m not liked. I get rejected, da, da, da. Eventually I just figure out what I like to do. Even at Madison. I went there for a year, first semester, and I tell students this.

Everything was like me, want me, want me, like me, want me, like me, want me? If you don’t like me, I hate you. If you don’t like me, I have a problem with you. Once I decided to transfer, no one was required to like me. ‘ cause I’m outta here. You don’t matter. In my life, I’ll be fine.

Nina: How [00:35:00] far into your first semester were you like, I’m transferring. I’m, I’m gone.

Harlan: probably like November, my longest girlfriend dumped me. I couldn’t find friends. I didn’t get into a fraternity. it was very rough because no one told me how to make friends. You know, the way you make friends is you share experiences over time, put yourself in places where you’re surrounded by people without requiring people to respond any other way, and you keep showing up.

I’m a slow burn guy. I don’t like take my shirt off and play hoops and high five and stuff, And I didn’t know that I was a slow burn guy and I didn’t know how someone who’s a slow burn guy finds people, finds places, finds friendships. It takes me a good six months to a year. college is not like when you’re in a new place. It’s not built for people who take a little while to find friendships.

Nina: I love your advice, uh, about this in particular, thinking about the fraternity sorority even to join things that just require you to show up as yourself, as you said, like Right. No auditions, no essays, no. You know, you don’t need to have a certain GPA, even , there’s clubs where you have to apply and interview. No, just the stuff where you’re allowed to just show up.

Harlan: You talk about [00:36:00] life advice and this is where, when I do events, whether you’re in kindergarten or you are 90 years old. It’s the same. You wanna put yourself in places where you are welcome and included, simply because you exist where there’s no barrier to entry. And if you use this as a strategy throughout your life, you’re always gonna put yourself in places and you’re gonna meet people.

A weird thing happens is people age, their friends get sick and sadly die. it’s a terrible thing. And when your friends pass, and you don’t have other friends. How do you find people? You put yourself in places where you can align, share your light, your interests with younger people, who are gonna live a long time.

That’s what this is the law of rejection when it comes to life. We don’t get to live forever. We’re constantly faced with challenges when it comes to forming relationships. No one really teaches us how to do this.

Nina: This is what I’m trying to do too. So you, you make me feel like good in my mission. ’cause that is my [00:37:00] mission. It

Harlan: right? If that’s what’s driving you, then I get, really in your face, we’ve talked long enough to be honest with you. It’s like, Nina, what are you doing? I’m getting older. I’m worried about, I see my mortality. I’ll say, you know, Harlan, why do you care so much about what other people think When you are providing service? And when you focus on service, what people think of you melts away. It’s not about you, Nina, and it’s not about me. It’s about how can I help other people? And that’s where I then give people permission to think whatever they want to think, because this is not about getting you to like me or thinking one thing or another about me. This is about me serving people who desperately need people in their corner to help make sense of this world.

Nina: Yes, I believe that’s what I’m doing. I think people get in their own way on friendships so much, and there are some just basic truths. Rejection and accepting it and knowing that you have to take risks, you have to join things. I mean, all of those are basic truths. Okay, let’s hear about your roommate.

Harlan: So my roommate moved [00:38:00] out from, from Wisconsin. He moved out about two weeks after we, uh, were living together. And I, and I really wanted to be friends and he loved to get high. That just wasn’t my thing. And he moved out and we didn’t really talk. I got an email

in August of this year, sins of the father, that was the, subject. this guy who didn’t really know, explained to me that his daughter, was having some roommate issues. His wife found books and videos, my books and videos. He took an interest and then he took a little more of an interest and after a couple weeks he’s reading through one of the books and realized, wait, that’s Harlan. I’m the roommate he’s talking

Nina: Oh my God, I just got the chills. goes, he goes, that’s me. And his wife was like, no. And they had this hilarious moment where he realized that he was the roommate, the first roommate that moved out in Wisconsin who was so upsetting to me and he didn’t do anything wrong other than just he moved out.

Harlan: But I needed him to be my friend ‘ cause I needed friends and it hurt my feelings that he left. I didn’t have any [00:39:00] resentment. he shared this message with me and then, we talked. He actually was a guest on my podcast.

Nina: Oh my gosh. I’m gonna go find that episode. I’ll link it.

Harlan: In that message he sent to me, he had a ps. And the PS was when I moved to Madison, I left home and my, brother has schizophrenia.

He was diagnosed in college, I’d been living in a home with a brother who was dealing with this illness. And when I got to Wisconsin, all I wanted to do was just escape and relax. And that’s probably why I smoked so much weed. And he said, the reason I moved out, really had nothing to do with you, but everything to do with just what I was dealing with and trying to manage. So, right. I was

Nina: that’s so,

Harlan: right. man, to just see in the clearest way this person was dealing with something so different. I was eager to find a friend. He was eager to chill out. We didn’t match. But 30 years later, now we align and we um, we actually talk every couple weeks.

I really like him. He’s a really good guy. I like the way [00:40:00] he, uh, thinks. I think, we’ll, we’ll continue this friendship. Somehow I ended up friends with my, college roommate.

Nina: It’s such a fantastic story ‘ you’ve talked about, showing up to college, having had somewhat of a rough time in high school here and there. And so of course you were extra vulnerable and excited about starting fresh. Here we are, new opportunity. And so of course it would be a sting.

it had to sting when he moved out. And I love how it came around like this

Harlan: so it’s a wild twist on friendship and I think it just, it just shows that, you know, friendships are always evolving and when we make assumptions and take things personally, it can really set us down a path. it’s really about what type of friendship do I have with me, Harlan, what type of friend are you to Harlan?

that friendship and that love and self care is so fundamental because it really helps us to be able to then listen and process as we deal with deeply emotional issues that are just part of being a human being.

Nina: Harlan, I, as you were talking, I’m like, there’s so many nuggets. Thank you. Thank you for being here. I know you’re a super busy speaker and people seek you out all the time.

I’ll have all the ways you can [00:41:00] find Harlan’s books and his social media videos and his coaching services for parents and students in my show notes. Here’s how I end every episode, harlan, I think you’ll agree. I tell everybody to come back next week for another interview because when our friendships are going well, we are happier all around

Harlan: absolutely. Thank you. Grateful to be here.

Nina: See you around.