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Jackie: I want everybody to encourage themselves to lower the stakes in some of these interactions. You don’t have to perform a friendship. You can just be in it. Your friend probably isn’t mad at you. You’ve probably just been alone with your brain too long. If there’s ways to kind of move out of your head and into your life, that will only benefit your friendships and other relationships too.

Nina: Welcome to Dear Nina, conversations about friendship. I am your host, Nina Badzin. I’ve been writing about friendship for 10 years. Sometimes I love to be joined by an actual therapist, which I am not. I am a person struggling sometimes with friendship. Succeeding sometimes in friendship and having conversations with people who have a lot to teach us.

This conversation with Dr. Jackie Henry is going to help you If you’re somebody who struggles to deal with the unknown in a [00:01:00] friendship. Does this person like me as much as I like them, does this person want too much from me? There’s all kinds of unknowns in friendships, new friendships, old friendships. I know that a lot of you listening out there struggle with overthinking because you write to me about it and I struggle with it too . Overthinking when someone texts a certain thing or doesn’t text. The silence can be an issue overthinking a lot of situations, but we do try to keep a positive in this conversation because we’re not just going to talk about how overthinking can damage a friendship. We talk about what we can do instead of overthinking.

A huge theme here is tolerating imperfection in other people in ourselves. Tolerating uncertainty, especially acknowledging that we don’t always know the story. Having the humility to say, I actually don’t know what the other person’s thinking. What Dr. Jackie does is give some practical tips for [00:02:00] what to do when you find yourself in one of these spirals.

Really, she’s speaking directly to me because I do it. I will do this. I will feel in my body, I will spiral into this story that I tell myself about why someone isn’t texting back or what should I text back to somebody in a certain situation, or what should I say to someone? Or we don’t directly talk about avoiding conflict, but that’s implied a little bit in here too that sometimes we can’t avoid conflict. Sometimes we should avoid saying certain things ’cause we’re just making assumptions. There are a lot of complex issues in this episode and I think you will recognize yourself or people you know. If it’s not you, you’re lucky.

There are definitely people in your life who are interpreting things a certain way, even if you don’t mean them to. Dr. Jackie Henry is a psychologist, writer, and founder of Less Thinking, more Living, a platform dedicated to helping people stop overthinking and start fully embracing life.

Based in the Twin Cities, which is also where I’m based, by the way, she works as a wellness consultant and has a [00:03:00] private therapy practice. We actually don’t know each other. We only met through our combined interests of friendship and relationships and it was really a pleasure to meet Dr. Jackie at least on video and be able to have this rich conversation. Hi Jackie. Welcome to Dear Nina.

Jackie: Hi Nina. Thanks for having me. Hi.

Nina: This topic is so important to me because I suffer from overthinking from telling myself a story. And I know, this is something that my listeners struggle with as well because in case you’re not aware, I’ve been receiving anonymous letters for 10 years, if I think about the theme that runs through ’em all, it is this maybe expecting perfection or just a lack of being able to, something you have said in, in our emails, sit with uncertainty, so that, that’s what it is, I think is not knowing or thinking. You know,

Jackie: absolutely.

Nina: I, I wanted to start with how you, in your work landed on this area of [00:04:00] therapy.

Jackie: Yeah. Thanks. my impetus for kind of starting my own platform, which I’m calling Less Thinking, more Living came from a realization that so much of our life is spent overthinking and kind of missing out on moments that matter. I’ve been in private practice in psychology for about a decade now. And just noticed also as a therapist how overthinking it wasn’t just affecting my clients, it was kind of creeping into my own relationships too. And in friendships especially, I think we can get stuck in loops of worry or judgment or just trying to get everything just right.

I wanted to really focus on creating a space that encourages people to embrace the messiness of being a person and how to show up more vulnerably and, be okay with imperfection because that’s actually where real connection happens. I do find that when people are feeling most stuck, most overwhelmed, they’ve kind of detached [00:05:00] from the actual interaction and more just living in their own mind.

I think a lot of that stems from the uncertainty of, okay, they made a weird glance, or I got this weird text, and now that kind of spirals into our own thoughts and then we kind of live there instead of checking it out directly with the person.

Nina: as it’s funny, as you were talking, I was just thinking I had to move my notes for this up to a different screen. I have two screens and I was very aware of of, okay, I’m gonna be not looking at the camera for a second and then I’m worried that like, oh, she’s gonna think, I’m not listening, I’m not paying attention.

It’s like I am listening, but I have to move my notes. I feel like I live that way a lot. just sort of worrying. It’s a combo. There’s the overthinking and worrying. Those are two different words, but I think that they’re connected.

Jackie: And hey, look what you just did. You just brought it to my attention in a really real way. I didn’t even notice and if I did, I probably would assume that because you’re a prepared person, that’s what you might be doing. I think you just did a really good model right there [00:06:00] of checking it out in real time with me.

The alternative, Nina would be, you might be thinking about that for our whole episode. And I don’t want that. I want us to have a good conversation. Right. I think that’s a great model for what we’re we’re talking about here,

Nina: let’s talk a little bit more about tolerating the unknown. That’s an expression, you know, you’ve used and and it really hit me that is really where the problem is, I think is an intolerance of not knowing what the other person’s thinking or what to do next.

Jackie: unfortunately our brains are kind of wired to dislike the unknown. if we go back to our original human existence, it’s like, do I eat the berry that we know is fine? Or do I try this other one that’s a little bigger and juicier? I don’t know. Let’s be safe and just eat the berry that I know.

Unfortunately we’re challenging our brain chemistry in tolerating some of the unknown. We’re not dealing with life and death when we’re dealing with what did this text [00:07:00] mean? But it can really feel like that. And so being able to walk ourselves through that little spike of anxiety when we encounter something that feels a little uncertain, that’s gonna lead us to make more intentional choices that are better aligned with who we are, who we wanna be than just relying on our old brain. Certainly this shows up in a lot of places. Relationships especially feel kind of high stakes for us because we’re social people, social animals. How do we lower the stakes to a reasonable situation in that moment for ourselves, which allows us to tolerate that uncertainty. we might talk ourselves through, okay, that’s confusing or, I’m not sure what that means. Let me ground my body first. Take a deep breath.

Do this while walking, thinking about it. And then lead with that curiosity, lead with that good intention and ask. that allows us to get more information, which then now we’re a little more certain.

Nina: texting is a great example ’cause I [00:08:00] think it happens in texting a lot. You’ve seen that in your practice.

Jackie: Oh, big time. And then people will read it to me and kind of be reactivated. Texting is hard ’cause we do it. That’s how I communicate mostly. And there’s no facial expression, there’s no emotional tone. Aside from emojis, sometimes it’s hard to figure out how people are communicating what they’re saying.

And, and that’s a lot of information we’re missing.

Nina: I’m curious about this moment when somebody reads you a text and they’re getting activated, like you said. Are you able to read the text differently and because they’re usually showing it to you in some context, like, oh, this person always does X, Y, Z. how do you come at it neutrally.

Jackie: I often will validate what their distress is, So that’s different than kind of jumping on board with their interpretation, So if they say, can you believe, they told me I can’t talk now. I gotta talk tomorrow. Can you believe that? And I’m like.

Wow, I do [00:09:00] really see that that was upsetting. Or I don’t know, rejecting or tell me like what that stirred up for you. And I’ll validate I see that, I see that this was upsetting for you. That’s different than saying, I know, what a jerk. I think first, by validating their reaction, that does give me a little openness to say, okay, well

what do you think would be another possibility? Or what is the question you really wanna ask? Or did they know that you needed an answer right now? helping them get to the point where they don’t have to respond in an angry state or a whatever kind of emotional state, and instead gather a little more information.

That often is like. Hey. Just wondering, you know, when is a good time to check in or, ways that you can get more information from them, rather than just taking one snapshot and interpreting that to your own story,

Nina: I think something you’re implying in there, which is part of the issue we all deal with is that it’s [00:10:00] not often what people say, it’s what they don’t say. It’s the silence, the non-response, So back to like tolerating uncertainty. I guess equal maybe half the time if somebody says something we’re misinterpreting it or they just don’t say anything and we’re interpreting that, interpreting the silence.

I think I struggle with that one personally the most is ’cause I’m such a fast texter and I’m really working on it. It’s funny, the theme, this episode won’t air in April, but the theme of April around here on the podcast is less attachment to the phone. Well, okay, if I’m encouraging that for other people and for myself, what does that mean?

That means you’re not gonna text people back as quickly. That’s just how it is. If you’re not going to be constantly picking up your phone, it means people are gonna have to wait to hear from you. And we have to, as a society, not let that mean so much. It means maybe we’re living our life, our real life off the phone.

Jackie: Yeah, and I, I think maybe that’s something you could easily get out in front of that decision would be to let people know that that’s your plan moving [00:11:00] forward. sometimes people have an email signature that says, this is how the frequency in which I check my email. you could also, when you do reply include there, Hey, sorry this took me a little bit to get back to you. I’ve been taking some healthy breaks from my phone. Oh my gosh, what a relief that other person will feel. That’s little information that doesn’t have a lot of cost for you to provide, but I think communicates with clarity.

Here’s where my priorities are, and it’s not you, so you don’t have to interpret my silence as something wrong with you or wrong with us. I would encourage you to kind of get ahead of that number one. if you’re on the recipient of that, if you’re dealing with that silence I would say do the opposite of what you wanna do, which is fire off a bunch of texts to say, are you listening? Or a lot of question marks or whatever.

Nina: the question mark like my kids do. My teenagers, they do respond ’cause they know that we will lose our minds.

Their dad and I, if they completely [00:12:00] ignore us. ’cause that’s rude. But yeah, they expect a response immediately. Then you get the question mark. Question where the capital letters? Capital letters. Mom. Mom.

Jackie: Sure when it’s hit capital letters, we know we’re really in it. Right. But I, I think, yeah, that when you have that urge to respond in that way, the best thing to do is the opposite, which is step away from the phone, go for a walk. Go do something very simple and I call it healthy distraction. So this isn’t scrolling furiously. It’s not avoiding work or anything that isn’t really healthy for you or is gonna add fuel to that fire. It’s something that’s healthy. Do something for someone else. Put your focus on organizing the junk drawer. Be outside, move your body, those kind of things ‘ cause that tends to bring our distress down to a more baseline level. And then we can think clearly about, is this person usually rude? Is this person a busy person? What would be some other options that I can interpret that doesn’t lead to [00:13:00] the conclusion that they hate me?

Nina: yes. are there people who aren’t like this? Are there people who walk around the world and always, assume it’s not them? I mean, I try to be balanced. I wouldn’t say I’m always assume it’s me, I like that you describe that physiological.

Because I feel that sometimes, like you feel it in your body that anxiety, I guess.

Jackie: Sometimes our body response is an easier access point to get ourselves back down to a calm or grounded state of being. If we’re really worked up trying to challenge our thoughts in a mindful way or a calm way, it really doesn’t work that often. And because we’re already Firing it off, these thoughts, one at a time, one after another. And it’s hard to really insert a logical one. What I would suggest is when you do feel it in your body, you know, sometimes for me, my cheeks flush, or I’m holding my breath, or my breath is really going fast, the easiest way for me to get back down to a grounded feeling is not by thinking more, not by offering more thoughts, but [00:14:00] by actually taking a deep breath, putting my hands under cold water, holding an ice cube, doing a little burst of, exercise something that is easily accessed, more than trying to come up with the perfect thought intervention.

Nina: I appreciate that, that’s practical. So, one thing we did not say explicitly, it’s been implied, but I think we need to say it, is exactly how overthinking can possibly damage your friendship. And it’s more than just feeling that feeling inside your body, which is damaging to us. But then what does it do to the relationship?

Jackie: This is important. We need to make the case of why to, why to not do some of these things that come so easily to us in these moments of uncertainty. sometimes when we fill in the blanks with negative, I. Where the silence means they don’t like us, the silence means we’re not as close.

That can lead us to react in ways that do damage the relationship. Nobody likes to be accused of being [00:15:00] disrespectful or being rude when they’re simply busy and haven’t gotten back to you. it might contribute to conflict where there didn’t need to be any. And then there’s a whole set of energy that needs to be put into the repair work. And some people are equipped to do that, and some people feel like, I don’t know how, and I don’t really wanna invest that much time and energy to repair this all the time. And so that can lead to a distancing in friendships. I think also overthinking in the way, not just of, tolerating uncertainty, but overthinking in your expectations for friendships or specific friends.

The frequency with which we get together or the things that we do if we’re expecting that a friend checks all of our boxes and then they don’t, the pressure that we might put on that friendship can lead to disconnection, conflict. It can lead to us avoiding that friendship because we have distress associated with it. The intensity that we bring to [00:16:00] our friendships can actually damage them at times if it goes into the area of overthinking or leading with anxiety.

Nina: Something that people write to me about a lot in this area and it’s tricky, which is maybe someone does have a different desire and expectation for friendship and they are struggling with the fact that the other person doesn’t respond as much or never reaches out first as one of the big topics on my podcast is people feel like they’re always the one who reaches out.

I guess I do try to help people with tolerating that because I say a lot and I believe it. It’s really just not everybody’s skillset.

some people are happier not necessarily happier, but they’re just fine doing their own thing and their own routine, and they don’t wanna go to some new area of town for lunch. They don’t really wanna disrupt their day. So they’ll do what’s easy for them, but maybe they don’t reach out because they, don’t have the need as much. you have the need more, you are gonna have to reach out more. And the sooner you accept that, you’ll be more satisfied with your friendships.

It’s hard to know, though, when is it truly a mismatch? when is it not going to work because one person’s [00:17:00] needs are so different.

Jackie: Yeah. I mean, I think that gets to your own tolerance for the energy that you’re willing to invest in a friendship. it’s, nuanced. I think it’s dependent on the person, how much are you willing to put in in order to maintain this connection? something I talk to my kids about is friendships are like shoes.

And my clients, frankly. I have a pair that I wear on holidays and that’s it. I have a pair that are kind of old. Really comfortable. And I wear ’em daily, but only in the house ’cause it’s just familiar. And I have some that are really for this one type of activity that I do.

My running shoes, I, you know, have, I have some just for the summer, my Birkenstocks. there isn’t a judgment on those shoes. They just serve different functions. I would encourage people to think about friendships like this is my shoe collection. I have a friend that I love to go to coffee with.

I have a friend who’s a great gym friend. And no one friend has to [00:18:00] have all of those functions wrapped up into that one friendship. That’s impossible. That puts a lot of pressure on that friendship. That leads to hurt feelings if someone isn’t meeting those expectations. So if you have a high need for friendships or you just like a lot of different things, I would encourage you to think about your friendships like that. They don’t have to be a one size fits all.

Nina: I think that people get confused sometimes. There’s, you know, studies out there, and I believe it too, that you only need a few really close friends, but I do think we need more

Friends to help get those needs met and that’s probably going to be a huge part of people dealing with what is a loneliness epidemic. I often say, to stop looking for a best friend. Just stop, stop looking for a best friend. That is an impossible standard.

Jackie: and the alternative is, okay, I, I’m not gonna have any friendship interactions unless I find that person. that is very lonely and it’s unnecessary. there’s also a lot of research that [00:19:00] says kind of brief social surface interactions do a lot for our mood and our perception that we have a support network, which actually there’s also some good research that the way that we perceive having support matters more than the constant contact with somebody. if you go to your gym and you have a quick conversation and then you get your coffee and you say hi to the barista that you know by name that’s not a substitute for deep, intimate connections. But it helps and it does add up to perception and a feeling that I am connected in my environment and I do have social support.

Nina: It’s a start and it echoes all this, work I’m trying to do to help people get out of the house and get off the phone and live and, be part of a community. being part of a community isn’t always the same as friendship but it’s important.

Jackie: if we do wanna bring a casual interaction to a deeper level. thinking about how we can take baby steps into [00:20:00] vulnerability and openness. Brene Brown, a lot of people know her work.

She talks about how trust is built through vulnerability and not the opposite. So we don’t establish trust first and then decide to open up. We have to open up so that we can build that trust. this isn’t about being very dramatic and everything is super intense, and I’m gonna tell you all my deepest, darkest secrets the first time we go for a friend date.

But it is being your real self and being honest about things that are going on for you and things you’re struggling with or things that’s going on in your family, what, whatever level of, of what vulnerability means to you, that is what brings friendships to that deeper level of connection.

Nina: Okay. So I don’t mean to always make every point you’re making about me. I’m always trying to think about listeners, but I am my standard listener.

We’re all dealing with the same things. And I actually think I am pretty good at being open and vulnerable and trusting, and then I leave and I go, why did I [00:21:00] say all that? I actually have said that sentence to myself. Because sometimes people ask questions, but sometimes they don’t.

And I’m just like, offering, I’m just giving then when it doesn’t come back, it’s not that I don’t trust them with my information. I’m beating myself up that I offered so much and they didn’t offer the same and I’m curious what you make of that.

Jackie: thank you because you are relatable. That is why you’re making this about you, right? and you’re not alone. There’s a lot of people that experience the very same thing including myself sometimes. But I like to call this a vulnerability hangover. Which is okay, I put myself out there and I thought it went well in the moment and then I leave and I’m horrified.

I do think that this goes back to our conversation about tolerating uncertainty. This is a skillset that you can build just like a muscle where you’re working in the gym. You can get more comfortable tolerating the aftermath from something vulnerable, from the uncertainty of how did they receive that.

And that [00:22:00] looks like some of the things I said before. Calming your body first, doing some healthy distractions, doing the opposite of what maybe anxiety wants you to do, which is like, Hey, I’m so sorry I told you all about that story. I’m really sorry you didn’t say anything. What were you thinking?

Nina: You’re like in my head. Yeah.

Jackie: So do the opposite. Put that phone down and go do a healthy distraction and then have some self-compassion which is, that was a little hard. I’m trying my best. This is related to my goal or my value of being more open in relationships, and I can also trust that other person to come to me with a concern or a reaction if they need to. This isn’t all us driving the ship. We can trust other people to bring to us what they need to as well.

Nina: You know what Jackie, it’s interesting we’re talking about how friendships will thrive if we can tolerate uncertainty. If we can be more open, if we can overthink less. And it’s really not just [00:23:00] friendships. I mean, I know you know this. It’s like our whole lives, our whole lives would be improved because I think we and a hundred percent include myself, waste a lot of time trying to control other people.

I also give advice to my kids that I should take better for myself. I tell them this to try to give them some humility. People just aren’t thinking about us as much, the amount of time we’re worrying, oh, what did they think of this? Or, we’re telling ourselves a story, but also giving ourselves a little too much credit for the space we take up in other people’s heads. Most of us are just worrying about ourselves, and so to think that someone else is has all these feelings towards us when maybe they’re just going about their day.

Jackie: I gotta say, I think most people are also thinking about their awkwardness in the world, right? And so if we can just acknowledge that and kind of operate under the assumption that, all right, how can I think less about this? And take an action to get real information back or let it unfold on its [00:24:00] own.

We can be really, efficient with our energy and really purposeful with our energy. Sometimes I talk about with clients, imagine you get, I don’t know, 50 energy bucks every day. You can do some of that to your kids and your partner and to your community and to your work and to self care, dinner. How much energy bucks are you willing to spend on rumination and overthinking?

Nina: God. That’s so good.

that’s all you get, That’s such a great visual. It could be like minutes, but I like the, the idea of the budgeting of Something, minutes. Money, anything. I gotta tell you one last thing. Well, my last thing and then if you have a last thing you’ll tell it too. There’s a woman I follow on TikTok, and I cannot remember her name, but I’m going to put it in the show notes.

It’s such a great sort of comic relief. She’s very funny, but she’s funny because it’s so spot on. What she does is just recount all the awkward things she did that day, and so she’ll just get on there and say. I was on a walk and I saw a woman in a really big hat and like she’ll say [00:25:00] the crazy things she said, and then she’s like.

Didn’t need to say that I don’t know why I said that. She’s a huge following and I think people like it because it’s these tiny things. She really does this all day long. I was at the barista and I said to him, how are you three times, not just once, not just twice, but three times. I said, how are you? you know that she is the kind of person who ruminates. I don’t think she’s just doing a bit, but it’s turned into a little bit of a bit That is so relatable.

Jackie: last week I saw a neighbor on a walk. She was asking about her spring break plans. I was going on a family vacation with my kids and my husband, and I was like, yep, we’re just gonna get down and dirty in California. And then I, I was like, all right, we’ll see you, blah, blah, blah.

I walked away and I was like. Down and dirty. What are you talking about? Why? what I ended up doing, because it was in danger of overthinking, right? Is telling my husband then sending her a quick text to be like, that was weird, wasn’t it? Hope you have a good break.

Nina: Okay. That’s so funny.

Now you [00:26:00] could have also not, have could have also not, could have also not, but I think this is someone I text with frequently, so it was okay. But yes, I also could have not, but just going right at it, I think it is a relief. I. Right. It took up, speaking of my energy bucks, maybe one instead of $10. So thinking about how do you just name it, we’re all out there being awkward and if we can just put it out there, it can be a source of humor and shared humanity.

That’s great. I’m glad we could have a laugh at the end on kind of a serious topic. Any last things you wanna, you know, leave us with

Jackie: I want everybody to encourage themselves to lower the stakes in some of these interactions. You don’t have to perform a friendship. You can just be in it. Your friend probably isn’t mad at you. You’ve probably just been alone with your brain too long. If there’s ways to kind of move out of your head and into your life, that will only benefit your friendships [00:27:00] and other relationships too.

Nina: What I’m taking away from this is a reminder to wait to do something else, like you said, remove yourself from the moment in your head and do something else completely. Not more thinking, not adding more thoughts. It’s such an important piece of advice. I’m so glad to have you on here.

And listeners, you can find more of Dr. Jackie on Less Thinking, more Living, and I’m gonna have all the show notes on her Substack. It’s a huge service that you have focused on these cause there’s a lot of things people need to work on, but I think learning to tolerate uncertainty is just massive for all of our lives and especially in our relationships.

Jackie: for sure. Well, thank you so much for having me on. Maybe we’ll run into each other

Nina: Yes, we gotta meet in person. We don’t live that far apart. So yes. Thank you. listeners come back next week when our friendships are going well. We are happier all around. Bye. [00:28:00]