Dan: [00:00:00] I inherited a magic words teaching slide from my mother, the fourth generation of the post family. And on that slide are three words that everybody thinks of, please, and thank you. then the next set of words on that slide is you’re welcome,.

Nina: Can I guess one?

Dan: Take me to the final three. Give me the final three

Nina: Well, is one of ’em. Excuse me. Oh, yes, I’m like so excited. I love a quiz. I’ll let you do the rest. I was just real excited.

Nina: Welcome to Dear Nina, conversations about friendship. I have an episode today that I just know you’re going to love because we cover so much ground. Daniel Post Senning and his first cousin Lizzie Post are the great-great grandkids of etiquette, Maven, Emily Post, they serve as co-presidents of the Emily Post Institute, They’re the co-hosts of the Long Running podcast. Awesome etiquette. They’ve offered etiquette tips in the Today Show, New York Times, gq, NPR, tons of other outlets, they are on a mission to make the world a little kinder. Etiquette is [00:01:00] about relationships. Emily Post herself wrote that etiquette is not some rigid code of manners, but simply how persons lives touch one another. End quote, dan and Lizzie have authored and co-authored several books about etiquette. Their most recent is Emily Post’s Business Etiquette, and we do cover some business friendship questions in this episode because there is definitely some awkward moments, right, that come up in the workplace when we’re starting to bring in the social piece too.

I think about these kind of things, obviously ’cause I do an advice column, which has a lot of this to it. Although as we talk about in the episode, I’ve never really used the word etiquette to describe anything that I do.

But it’s in there. It’s woven into how people get along and don’t get along, and how they could be happier in their friendships, which is really the point of this whole show is how can we be happier in our friendships? Because when we are unhappy in our friendships, we are unhappy in our life. I feel very strongly about that. I end every episode saying as much.

At the same time, as we [00:02:00] all know in the dear Nino world, friendships can be an etiquette minefield. I’m thinking of really obvious things like not RSVPing to somebody’s event or RSV Ping. Yes. And not showing up being late.

We covered a lot of great ground in this episode. I had received questions from my Facebook group. People email me personally, and I tried to incorporate as many as possible. I just know you are going to get a kick out of Dan. He was a delight to talk to.

I really could have talked to him forever. I had to cut us off because I just had more questions as we were talking.

More questions would come to my mind because there’s, what’s realistic to do, there’s what is the technical etiquette answer, and Dan’s really good at both. But I do agree with Dan and Lizzie and their family’s work, good manners, good etiquette, doing what is not just the right thing, but the kind thing would aid a lot of friendships in all relationships. There’s a reason why some of these quote unquote rules exist. I don’t think of them as harsh, [00:03:00] difficult rules, and we don’t even talk about rules. It’s deeper than that. It, you’ll see.

Let’s welcome Daniel Post Senning to Dear Nina.

Hi Dan.

Dan: Hello, Nina. It is a pleasure to be with you.

Nina: So I’m going to start off right off the bat with an etiquette question something I want to know, and I don’t know if it’s rude to ask, so you will tell me if it’s rude to ask and then I guess you’ll answer or not. And I want to know how old you are because that just helps me to know and reference for some reason.

I feel like I need to know that.

Dan: Well, I mean, technically that’s a, I don’t want to start off playing the scold.

Nina: No, I listen. I’m that too a lot on this show, so don’t worry.

Dan: Um, we’ll call that a potentially controversial question. it’s something that I would take some care with, but you took some care with how you asked it. You acknowledged that you were tiptoeing out into some territory that, that maybe not everyone be comfortable with. I’m completely comfortable. I am 47 years old.

47 has been my lucky number for many, many, many years. It feels like a lucky year for me.

Nina: and I am 48, And so you and Lizzie refer to yourselves as millennial. I’ve seen the [00:04:00] word millennial thrown around a little bit, but it’s funny. that’s a hard one. ’cause I technically think of myself as Gen X. I was born in 76, people who also call themselves Gen X, who are quite a bit older, and we have totally different references on things, so it’s confusing. I’m right on the cusp with you.

Dan: And, and sort of aware that depending on which chart you’re looking at, I could fall into one group or the other. always felt like an old soul. I think in some ways I identify with those, Gen Xers. I’m a child of the nineties in a

Nina: Yeah, same. so well moving on. Now we know your age. I got a bunch of questions for you from my Facebook group and people wrote me privately, so we are going to just get right into it. I don’t normally do this. I normally focus on one topic, but we’re going to just sail around the friendship world with this.

The first one is work related. it says, my colleague at work, who I’d say I’m friendly with but not friends with, just followed me on Instagram. I usually don’t like colleagues to be in my orbit online. I’m pretty outspoken with my political opinions and I prefer to keep my work personal world separate.

Maybe I should have made a private profile to start with, but [00:05:00] I’m wondering what to do. should he, this is from a guy, should he accept the social media invite?

Dan: Well, I want to first of all just applaud the awareness that our participation, the way we behave on these public forums, can have an impact on our lives in personal and professional ways. That level of awareness, I think is one of the prices of admission for participating in those spaces well and safely. The firm etiquette answer is that that’s entirely up to you. You get to accept or reject friend connection requests for reasons that that are up to you to decide, and you’re not required to explain that reasoning to anyone. You’re not required to go into all of the reasons why you might or might not want to be connected with someone.

It is okay to ignore that request, and I’ll date myself a little bit. Once upon a time when Facebook was the dominant and emerging social platform it called ignoring a friend request, ignore. And I think that a lot of our default setting about that being potentially rude comes from that [00:06:00] word

because we’re taught not to just ghost people if we can help it.

If someone reaches out to you or tries to acknowledge you, it’s polite and appropriate to acknowledge them back. But because this is such a public space and because people do get to make those choices for all kinds of reasons that are very personal, that might be reasons that they don’t want to share in a public forum.

I use this to connect to very close friends and family. I share pictures of my children here. That alone can be enough of a reason and anybody who’s reaching out, trying to establish that kind of connection, it’s up to them to be aware of that as well. To not take it too personally if a request is ignored or not responded to. It’s It’s also possible that you’re not on that profile. Sometimes these accounts are, less frequented, less used than you might imagine. my, my advice there goes two ways. One, handle it how you’d like. And if you’re on the flip side of that, don’t take it too personally whether you’re accepted or rejected.

Nina: I think in the realistic friendship space on that, like let’s say you’re in a work relationship and someone’s trying to take it to the next level. [00:07:00] they may have to just try a different way and realize that’s, even though social media in some ways can be so not intimate, it may just feel too intimate and it’s, it’s was too big of a leap.

it should have started perhaps with a grabbing lunch in the middle of the workday.

Dan: Well, part of a good professional relationship or any good relationship is the ability to set boundaries and make and make decisions and be clear about those things. A lot of that structure can actually facilitate better relationships. If you’ve got good boundaries between your personal and professional life, it’s easier to fully inhabit that professional space to interact with people without wondering or worrying what it is they’re seeing about you on your social profile. Again I love to flip it around. It’s also easier to participate in those spaces the way you’d want to and the way you feel good and the way they can fulfill you and connect you with other parts of your life in ways that are meaningful.

If political activism is something that matters to you or, whatever it might be that you want to keep in separate spheres.

Nina: that makes sense. And I think another advice I’d add to that is that probably people should [00:08:00] be consistent. Like if you’re not going to want to be social media connected with colleagues, if possible, maybe it’s best to keep that as consistent as possible. I had sort of a, a difficult situation related to this, which is there was a period of time where when my kids’ friends, my teenagers’, friends, so my kids are quite a bit older than yours, we talked a little bit before you have younger kids.

I have, teenagers to, my oldest is about to turn 21, so my youngest is 13.

Dan: I.

Nina: And most of the time it’s really fun. But as they were getting older and entering social media, their friends would request to be friends with me on Instagram.

This is my personal account. And this person who asked the question said like, maybe I should have made a private profile. That’s another thing to do, and which I did do later, but the time it was public. I accepted some. But then I got into this conundrum where it’s like, well, now am I choosing, oh yes, to this friend, but not that one.

And then I realized I don’t want any of ’em, and I just. Deleted them all and made my account private. My kids didn’t necessarily like that their friends could scroll back and see a picture of them from when they were little . It was too public [00:09:00] and I wish I had to your point, kept a better boundary from the get go and it just would’ve kept myself out of that issue.

Dan: This idea of the tyranny of choice, and we all have so many choices that we’re making all the time, these little quick decisions, and in an information world where the desire to connect and to feel that endorphin rush from getting that piece of information or reaching out to that person that you care about is so strong.

Having some real consistency and having some firm guidelines that allow you some freedom from that tyranny of choosing all the time can, can really be a liberation. I like that development of the idea.

Nina: The other questions we got from the Facebook group and in my email, they were less written as dilemmas, like that one was written. They’re really more topics. Another one that is connected to work. We’ll just stay on work for a little bit since that’s what the current book is about.

Then we’re going to move on to other areas. What is the best etiquette to connect with someone from work? So I had suggested a minute ago, maybe you do lunch. Is that okay in the work setting? Is it how do you take something that is a work [00:10:00] relationship and make it more social if that’s something you’re hoping to do?

’cause people often say, oh, you meet such great friends at work. what is proper?

Dan: There’s no reason a good work relationship can’t develop into a good personal relationship, friend, romantic, sort of more extended community members. it doesn’t have to. That’s, that’s going to be a personal case by case, decision that people get to make, you can test the waters, you can always offer a social invitation.

the caution is that because it’s a professional relationship you that you aren’t necessarily going to be able to walk away from if it doesn’t work out that you think about how you would feel, how you would be capable of responding if the answer’s a yes or a no or a unfortunate, from an etiquette perspective, these days, a question mark, you don’t get a firm or clear reply to an invitation or a request. And in some ways, the price of admission from my perspective on making that ask, Hey, would you like to grab lunch sometime?

Relatively safe social ask around the workplace, is [00:11:00] whether or not you would be comfortable with a yes and no or a maybe. if you can handle all of those things and proceed in a way that allows that professional relationship to continue, it’s probably a risk that you can afford if the benefits are apparent to you and you’d like to go that route. The other thing that I’d love to say though, that the person asking that question is that there are ways to have really full and satisfying professional relationships that you can improve a professional relationship. That just because it’s professional doesn’t mean it has to be cold or distant or artificial. In fact, some of the best business etiquette is about figuring out how to interact with people as humans while you do good work together. Little things like saying hello, acknowledging people the first time you see them in the day and it’s corollary, which a lot of us forget, saying goodbye at the end of the day.

Just saying for long, see you later. I’m out. I’m checking out. I’m outta here. All of a sudden you have two very healthy, positive, just human social interactions that give. a framework and a context to your day. Add one more little positive social [00:12:00] interaction and you’ve got that minimum of three that are required to be able to do critical feedback with each other.

Well, it can really help your professional relationship if people feel comfortable and safe at ease. And those are all things that I think we’re, oftentimes looking for in our relationships, a sense of being together. You don’t necessarily need to take a relationship out of the workplace to have that feeling

Nina: Such a good point. sometimes a relationship can be the joy that it is where it is in its setting and it doesn’t have to come into the other parts of your life.

Dan: and there might still be room to improve it to make

Nina: Yes. I.

Dan: bit better if that’s the quality that you’re looking for, that you’re searching for or, or looking to develop.

Nina: the last work one I wanted to talk about actually has to do with ai, which I’ve been in total denial about for a while. It’s interesting ’cause I’ve been an early adopter on so many other things, tech-wise through my life. Shockingly really, because I don’t think of myself as a techie person.

And yet when I compare myself to a lot of, I’ll just say women my age that are in my peer group, I, I’m much techier in some ways, but on [00:13:00] ai, I just, because I’m a writer, I guess I’m. First and foremost, a writer. That’s what I am. everything about AI kind of like offends my sensibilities, and I was an English teacher before I had kids.

I, it bothers me and everything about it, all the emojis and the, I just can’t stand it like right away. You just know when there’s like an emoji before every sentence. I’m like, okay, that was on ai. And then I sort of feel like, well, that person wrote that on ai. Ai, why do I have to read it then? I feel sort of burdened with having to read somebody else’s computer speak. They didn’t take the time to fully write it. I should take the time to fully read it. Okay. That was like a random rant. That wasn’t even the question. The question is what is the best etiquette if you know that somebody wrote their condolence card or their birthday card on ai, this came up in my Facebook group.

Dan: I winced.

Nina: Yes, I did too. And I should add that I’m starting to learn certain ways that AI is going to help me, with certain pieces of my transcript and things that I already wrote or said. I feel better about. If it’s going to [00:14:00] synthesize some of my ideas into a way that I could use it for something else.

I’m less offended by it, but I can see how it’s a slippery slope and you, you can stop using your brain. to the point where you’re using it to write your friend or loved one a card, people are definitely doing this. would you ignore it? Would you call them out on it? What would you do?

Dan: I’m not a big one for calling people out on things. I would notice that little wince in myself and if I was receiving that note, and it was more than a wince, my first thought is, etiquette’s a powerful tool. When you’re using it for self-improvement, for reflection about your own behavior, it’s functionally much less useful when you’re using it to judge someone else.

Nina: That’s a great point. Yes.

Dan: have any standing to really a address someone else’s behavior. Your kids till they reach a certain age, and that age is less than most people think. Maybe a spouse. If you have a good enough relationship, you can address questions about their behavior partner, good friend. But it’s, it’s tough talking with people about what they do and [00:15:00] its potential for making other people feel bad. If you could approach it as a broccoli on the tooth kind of situation, bring someone’s attention to something in the spirit of helping them avoid embarrassment later on. and if that can come from a genuine place, if it’s not just about playing the scold and telling someone that you were offended and that they should feel bad, but if it really is about bringing their awareness and attention to something that they would probably want to know about that, no, this condolence card didn’t make you feel better.

In fact, it made you feel worse, and they wouldn’t want to do that again with someone else. I. I think there’s room, there’s room to have that conversation, but I would, really do some self-assessment before I had it about what my intentions are and, and my intentions really being the best for that other person in bringing it up. In raising it.

I will tell you I heard a story very recently about a Super Bowl commercial that involved AI the commercial resolved with someone using a AI to write a thank you note. And usually a Super Bowl commercial is the launch of a major ad campaign, It’s followed up by all kinds of other media. [00:16:00] They abandoned it after the 60 seconds million dollars they spent on the Super Bowl. ’cause the response to the child using AI to write a thank you note was so dramatic and so negative.

Nina: Oh, that’s so interesting.

Dan: It’s, it’s not just the etiquette expert, it’s the feeling that people have when something that is meant to be expressing an emotion from you is not coming from you, is coming from somewhere else, and that disconnect is perceived as dishonest.

At the Emily Post Institute, we think that all good etiquette, all functional social expectations are built out of consideration, respect, and honesty. Thinking about other people recognizing their worth and value, and then operating from a place of truth telling and sincerity. And if you can combine those three things, you’re going to be in pretty good shape in most situations. Even if you mess up, it’s recoverable. the dishonesty and the insincerity of giving someone an emotional message that didn’t really come from you, I think is, is just a gap that’s too big for most people to cross.

Nina: Uh, so well said. I think maybe [00:17:00] the best thing for people to take away from this little piece about AI is. I agree with you on not calling people out. It’s just don’t do it yourself. know that people don’t receive that well, people don’t receive it well know that and fight the temptation. You can write a four sentence note. We can still do it.

Dan: And let’s take that lesson and apply it a little more broadly. If you’re going to use AI and represent it as your work, tell people how you use it. Because there’s a, a smaller infraction that, that is the professional version of this infraction, which is here’s some work I did. That doesn’t look like you did all that.

Well, I did. I set the prompts up. It took a long time. Tell people how you use that tool. Is AI polite? Is it rude? It’s neither. It’s, it’s going to be how we use it. That really matters.

Nina: that’s a really great point. And I’m kind of trying to do that too, saying that I’m starting to figure out how to make it play with my transcripts and stuff. I also want to be above board on that. ’cause it, it’s important to me as a writer.

Okay, here’s a really fun one. It’s actually not that fun. It’s a hard one and it’s one sentence, and yet I think we can talk about it for a while. How do you get out [00:18:00] of a group text that you just don’t want to be in anymore? Like you were a part of some kind of group, some get together thing, and it’s just like endless. And you, you’re sort of, am I on this thing forever? What are your options?

Dan: Oh, you’re asking the world’s worst texter,

Nina: Oh.

Dan: but I also good etiquette advice on it. You get to be in control of your device and if it’s the, persistent alerts and that text group is taking over your ability to sanely communicate, asking to be removed is a very reasonable request. Again, how you do it matters. I would reach out to whoever’s in charge of the list, whoever’s setting up that group text. I, I don’t necessarily think you need to do it with the whole group. You can reach out to the organizer and ask to be removed. Thank them for including you, for having you be part of that community.

If those thoughts are genuine, a parallel might be, think about how you’d leave a party. You want to acknowledge your host. You want to let ’em know that you’re leaving. You don’t need to make your departure the biggest event of the whole affair. You don’t need to make your exit the moment that everyone else needs to pay the [00:19:00] most attention to. if it’s coherent, if, if it’s a smaller gathering, you might say goodbye to the group. I’m heading out. I’ll see y’all later. If it’s been a, a text exchange where you’ve been a, a real active participant and people would miss you or your absence might cause some questions in people’s minds. You could say a, measured goodbye to the group.

Also, if you, if you know that you’re going to be departing, you’ve talked to your host, essentially the person who included you to begin with. I think it’s a little trickier if the group keeps reforming. If different people keep pulling the text group together to invite the same little cluster to say a weekly dinner party or a biweekly dinner party or something like that, that might require a message to the group.

But I’m, I’m thinking about who’s hosting, I’m asking to be removed, and then I’m trying to dosage my goodbye to the group in a way that, isn’t too self-important and isn’t too, um, dismissive of what’s going on in the group that

Nina: Yes, that’s what the concern is. I will tell you a personal one. I was part of a text group that I really adore all the people, and it was for, a study group kind of [00:20:00] thing, Jewish, Torah study that was taking place on a certain day of the week that I just could not come anymore.

And it wasn’t all iPhone users. If it’s all iPhone users, you can remove yourself by the way. You don’t a have to ask to be removed. But when there’s some Android people in there, when my husband’s an Android person, he always causes this problem. When there’s some Android people, only the creator of the list can take you off.

So then you do have to ask the person. I think I did say in there, I just know I’m never going to make this day anymore. I wish I could. I don’t know if I directly said though, and that was probably my mistake. can you please remove me? I had a hard time saying the words for some, and then no one really removed me.

And I know I could have handled that better. So I speak from personal experience.

Dan: I have a hard time with the direct requests also. So often it’s a part of a good etiquette answer that, oh, there’s a difficult conversation that’s going to happen here. And one of the pieces of advice for difficult conversations, it’s the praise concern, suggest framework, the priming of the other person is that there’s something a little difficult [00:21:00] I’d like to talk with you about.

Is now a good time? All great tips, but they all drive to and be ready to say the thing. Be ready to say the difficult thing. ’cause we all want to dance around it. No one wants to say you’ve got a piece of broccoli on your tooth and everybody can see it. sometimes it really is the kindest and frankly, it’s important.

It’s important to say it.

Nina: That priming part of a difficult conversation is so important ’cause we all feel it when somebody just drops a unexpected direct thing. But just a quick text before is now a good time. It makes all the difference. It makes all the difference to not be blindsided.

Dan: They give you permission and then you can say almost anything.

Nina: Yes. That little piece of etiquette. That’s so true. okay, so , oh, I love this one. Every one of them Facebook friends. You guys did such a good job. It’s really, it’s the group for Dear Nina. So they, they understand this, the assignment.

Should you bring up a friend’s, kids’ inappropriate behavior on social media. So think about when your kids are teenagers, and I know not just your family, but you’re thinking more from Emily post institute perspective. your friends [00:22:00] with your adult friends. But now you’ve seen, like I told you before, sometimes you can see kids social media, because at some point you’ve accepted them in or they invited you or whatever.

Now you’re seeing something that’s maybe you deem inappropriate or maybe anyone would deem inappropriate. Do you say something or is it none of your business? Oh, it’s hard, right?

Dan: Yes. No, I know. ’cause you, you say, well, is it none of your business? And I think, no, it’s happening in a public space. But then if you want to inject your opinion into someone’s family life in terms of the way they’re parenting, it starts to get very personal, very quickly. And I’m going back to the advice that we have for thinking about how we discipline and whether it’s your kids or someone else’s kids. the big piece of advice for parents of littler kids that you don’t discipline other people’s kids. That you can talk to them about what the rules are in your house or in public spaces, but when you start crossing the line to there being consequences for actions as opposed to just engaging someone and making clear what the expectations are that that job’s really for [00:23:00] their parents or the people that are responsible for them.

A guardian, a parent, a supervisor. and, and I would try to draw that into my thinking about the social space, that if it’s about giving a parent a heads up so they know about something that’s going on, I think it’s completely appropriate. If there’s a hint of a tone of a, and I think you should be doing something about this to it, I think it starts to be more of a question and potentially starts to cross a line that isn’t appropriate.

And if it starts to get to a point that’s prescriptive, it’s really inappropriate for your child to be doing this. You shouldn’t allow that then, then I think you’ve crossed the line. So it, how you have that conversation I think is really important. if someone is aware, being ready to, um. To step back and not pursue it further. I think language that allows for that is also really helpful, can go a long way towards getting that conversation received. Well, there’s something I’ve noticed you, I don’t know if you’re aware of it, but I wanted to tell you. All of a sudden, oh yeah, no, I saw that.

[00:24:00] We talked about that when it happened last week. Or I had no idea. Thank you so much. Or, oh. I didn’t know about that. Moving on. I’m someone who hears something. It takes me about 45 hours to actually hear it and it’s going to be a full two days before I actually do anything about it. So just be ready for people who have different ways of processing information you can share, but don’t be too invested in the outcome or the result.

Nina: Uh, such good advice. It really is a delicate situation because I think most people do not like to be put in the position of having to defend themselves on something that, like you brought to their attention. you know it when you’re in it, you know it when somebody has put you in that weird position where you now have to defend your life choices. No one likes that and then they’re going to, you can say what you want.

I guess my answer to this person would be, you can certainly say what you want, but be ready. That is not going to be received well, I’m not saying that if in certain cases we’re talking safety major life and death stuff. Yes. Okay. Like somebody’s like shooting up drugs on Instagram. Yeah. You probably should mention it to their parents.

You don’t like [00:25:00] the length of their skirt? Nah. Maybe let that one go.

Dan: and there’s lots of territory between those two extremes. There’s,

Nina: Yes.

Dan: were at that party. I know if you knew that party was uns chaperone, there were lots of people there. I happen to see your kid. I mean, there, there, a lot of versions of this that pre-social media were also relevant questions.

Did you know your child was at the unchaperoned my person told me they were. my kids are just getting into the public school system. I tell ’em in the small town that we live in, it’s the information clearing house of the community. That school knows everything. There’s a spy in every house, in every road at the end of every street.

And they all talk all the time. being able to engage in that space, participate, share information, be realistic about it. Like you say, sometimes there’s genuine safety concerns. Sometimes, you know, the other parents, the other kids, there’s a lot of it depends in a lot of these

Nina: So true.

Dan: not shaming someone,

Nina: Mm-hmm.

Dan: position where you are even raising it is calling them into question, I think are really, really wise things to pay attention to.

Nina: Okay. Let’s [00:26:00] talk about exiting a conversation gracefully. I know this is right in the Emily Post etiquette wheelhouse, but it’s a question that came up in the group. How do you exit gracefully without being rude? Let’s say you’re at a cocktail party or some sort of school gathering where there’s just a lot of people and you want to talk to other people, but you don’t want to be rude and make the person feel like, I don’t want to talk to you anymore, even though that’s kind of the case.

Dan: I get to give the most etiquette answer ever.

Nina: it’s an etiquette question. That’s a good one.

Dan: Magic words are magic. They can get you out of all kinds of difficult, awkward, uncomfortable, or just boring situations. Although something my mother did used to tell me, never say you’re bored. That’s like saying you’re boring. No one’s responsible for your attention, but you. my mother taught me magic words. I inherited a magic words teaching slide from my mother, the fourth generation of the post family. And on that slide are three words that everybody thinks of, please, and thank you. then the next set of words on that slide is you’re welcome,

Nina: Oh, okay. Can I guess one?

Dan: Take me to the final three. Give me the final three [00:27:00]

Nina: Well, is one of ’em. Excuse me. Oh, yes, because I was thinking, I’m like so excited. I love a quiz. I’ll let you do the rest. I was just real excited.

Dan: it’s a magic word. Also, pardon me, and I’m sorry. please thank you. You are welcome. Don’t always minimize other people’s thanks. It’s not always, it was nothing. It was no trouble. No. I’m trying to thank you for something. I wasn’t worried about it. It’s not a no worries answer. It’s a thank you for X, Y, or Z.

You’re welcome. It was no trouble. Whatever it is. Excuse me. I don’t mean to interrupt, but. Excuse excuse me. And then the thing that you were going to do and before you say, excuse me, it’s rude, you’re mid-sentence. I just turn, I stop making eye contact and I walk away. Rude. Excuse me, just a minute. I really need to use the restroom. Turn my eyes, walk away. Not rude. I’ve showed some consideration. I’ve showed some awareness. I’ve acknowledged the social infraction before I made it. It just shows such consideration, such care for someone else, even if it’s followed by something that was a little bit difficult or a little awkward, like departing mid-sentence. I [00:28:00] also like to include, pardon me. ’cause it’s nice to have a little bit of variation, a little room to play. and even though, I’m sorry, not every, I’m sorry, is about expressing deep contrition or regret sometimes just, oh, I’m sorry. I just saw my mom come through the door. I really need to give her this before anyone else sees her and grabs her attention. Whatever it is that, that, those three words, but excuse me and pardon me, are great for exiting conversations.

Nina: On a semantics thing, you kind of brought it up a little bit a a moment ago, but sometimes, and it’s with a younger generation. It’s really clear with my kids’ friends. I’ll ask them a question or something and , they’ll say, you’re good, I wasn’t worried I know I’m good.

I want a more concrete example. People say it a lot. No, you’re good, you’re good. I don’t like it. I don’t know why it bothers me.

Dan: Well, it truncates it, it breaks the connection. It’s like, I’m, I’m assuming I know what’s going on on the other side. I think there’s oftentimes a bit of a conceit to it that, oh, we both know, so it’s okay. We don’t need to actually inhabit it. We don’t need to actually do it. I know it’s true with the example of giving and receiving gratitude, that is just such an important exchange for people.

It can feel [00:29:00] so good for both parties. I get to show appreciation. An attitude of gratitude is a good place to be in as a person. It’s also nice to be thanked. It’s also nice to be acknowledged and to have someone appreciate something that you’ve done and not truncating that moment, not shortcircuiting it, and assuming that you have all the feelings already in place, but being there with it and letting it happen. It’s something that’s really worth thinking about and worth giving yourself the permission to do it. Maybe not every time, but maybe not having the default be that, oh, it was, no worries. It’s no trouble. You’re all good

Nina: Yeah. I think maybe that’s what it is. It that makes sense. Okay. On invitations, somebody wrote invitations, giving one out, accepting, declining, um. Then I have in quotes, ’cause this, I took this from the Facebook group. I’ve had friends be rude issuing an invitation, and I’ve had some who push a lot for attendance and I’ve had some say yes and then forget to show up.

So there’s a lot in there. I guess there’s two different questions . It’s about receiving an invitation, and of course this is a big topic actually [00:30:00] showing up if you said you were going to, but then there’s how much should you be pushing when you invite people

Dan: What, what I love is that question is multitude and the end of the question answers the question that it starts by asking, and I send invitations and then people don’t even show up. Why do these hosts keep pursuing me to be sure that I’m going to show up?

People are struggling with social invitations and they have been for a decade plus now. There are people, my cousin Lizzie, who have given up throwing dinner parties because it’s really hard to get people to respond. it’s hard to get an answer with enough time to actually prepare a meal for eight to 10 people. People think they can reply day of. People think that if they don’t reply, that’s a no.

And it’s not. It’s a question mark on a host’s guest list. the etiquette start to this is that there is a continuing importance to RSVPing, that responding to an invitation is basic functional social etiquette. In the world of setting boundaries and it’s okay to say no if you know you’re not going to go, just say no. I know hearts will [00:31:00] break all over the world, but we really will survive those of us issuing invitations and, and getting a good clean no is actually a good answer for a host, then you know that that space is available or it’s not occupied. the question mark that’s the most difficult.

And it’s why actually, when we’re giving advice to hosts, we encourage them not to pursue people to come, but to pursue people for answers. That it is okay to follow up on an invitation that hasn’t been answered, to ask someone’s planning on coming, and if that if feels like social pressure to you. If that, if feels like, oh, they’re really demanding that I go, you can remind yourself that it is okay to say no, and you may not have yet

Nina: Right. And that’s on you. Like you sh

Dan: situation is to just say that you’re not going to be coming. Almost guarantee they’re not going to continue to ask you.

Nina: So would the best way to follow up if you’re the host, I like the expression you just used. Are you planning on coming? Is that what you would say? I.

Dan: Absolutely, we say that the RSVP happens in the form that the invitation’s [00:32:00] issued. So if someone gives you a call and invites you, give ’em a call back and tell ’em you can or can’t come. If it’s a, that text group exchange and someone saying, Hey, it’s going to be this house this Friday. Yes, I’ll be there looking forward to it.

Can I bring so and so or no? I won’t be there. Text is fine. Do it in the medium that the invitations issued in and you’re going to be in pretty good shape. but do do it.

Nina: I could really talk to you all day. I’m just going to do a few more but I want you to know that I could talk to you all day. Okay. This one’s really deep for etiquette and, and it comes up in my work a lot.

How do you talk to a friend when your kids who were friends have a falling out and navigate moving forward? I know, I know. It’s a headache i’ve done a whole episode just on this, so I’ll be curious what you say though. So I’ll say that again. How do you talk to a friend when your kids who are friends have a falling out and how do you navigate moving forward?

Dan: I think this is applicable at any age. I feel like versions of this question are, um, unavoidable because parents and kids end up making these very coherent social [00:33:00] scenes. They come together, we come in a package. That being the case. I want to sort of tease that apart and talk about those being distinct and independent relationships. It can feel like you and your child are a single unit and everything that happens to one of you is happening to both of you. But that is not necessarily the case and giving yourself the room to have an a functional adult relationship regardless of how well or not well the kids are getting along, I think is an important skill to develop as a parent. That just functionally might work or not work that you get to see as much of each other. You might not be having the common play date or the opportunities to carpool or ride share to the practices as they get older in the same way. but you can still have your own independent relationship with that parent and keep that respectful.

And if the question of the kid’s not getting along comes up, I think you’ve are best served with an honest assessment of it. They seem not to be getting along so well right now. And there can be times [00:34:00] where maybe it feels like someone’s not being good to the other person and then that can start to sort of spiral the feelings in the parents as well. And I think the same advice continues to apply as it gets emotionally more difficult, really reminding yourself that that parent is not the child, and that children are children and that even teens who seem like high functioning, very adult little people, are still

testing things out, figuring things out. As a parent, really giving kids enough room to explore and have the successes and the failures that are going to be part of their growing up and giving them the room to do it without it destroying your relationships

i’m so curious. What did you do for an hour on the show on this? ‘Cause

Nina: Ugh, so many ins and outs. There’s a lot of what we talked about too is I think, and this is going to be harsh words, there’s a certain emotional immaturity when adults blame other adults for children’s behavior. it’s easy to do that if your kid has always been the quote unquote victim. Trust me, there’s going to be a time, I always want to say this to every parent, when [00:35:00] your kid is going to make a decision at some point, and it might not even be so they did something horrible. They just grew apart from someone that doesn’t make them a bad kid. They went in a different direction. They met other kids, they joined a different activity and are hanging out with those kids more. Life happens.

It does not make your fellow parent, peer, friend, acquaintance, a horrible bad person because their 12-year-old lived his life. But people get really judgy and harsh on fellow parents. And my goodness,

everyone wants their kids to be kind and all this, I just think people say that a lot until they are kid is the one who genuinely went in a different direction. Then you see, oh, every kid’s not a cruel person. When your kid is the one who has moved on for any reason, you do feel a lot of pressure if you’re a feeling human when you see this other parent, you know that they’re hurting a little bit because of what you said there is this lack of separation between I’m this person and my kid is that person.

We’re not the same person. And that kid has to go through life and learn resiliency and [00:36:00] they don’t if their parents are always doing favor. So one of the things we talked about, is this business of we’re friends

so I’m going to do a favor for your kid to get your kid invited. Will lead to that kid not really having real friends. you can only favor it up for so long before high school comes along or junior high and that kid is not included in Halloween or something big. The other parents kind of blindsided like, oh, why wasn’t so and so invited?

Well, the truth is they only got invited the last three years because I didn’t want you to be mad at me.

Dan: and they spend three years hanging out with kids that they don’t vibe with.

Nina: Not really.

Dan: developing the genuine social relationships that have you with your cohort. That makes a lot of sense for you. I tell you when you, when you talk about that, that victim orientation also that like it’s, it can be very easy to see that side of things, to feel that aggrieved or victimized, I think it’s really hard for parents to see when their kids are selfish or bullying or manipulative or exclusionary. sometimes I think those are the easiest [00:37:00] things to miss as a parent. So I think it’d be easy also to look at other kids and look at other parents and be judgmental.

And you started off reminding us that it’s going to be your kid at some point, and probably it’s your kid right now.

Nina: Right.

Dan: things about your kid that you don’t like seeing that, they’re a part of. I had a very interesting conversation with my. 8-year-old recently about why it would be okay to dislike somebody and why it wouldn’t be okay to dislike somebody. That we don’t build our identity around what we dislike in our family.

That’s not a way that I like to approach things, but it’s also okay to notice things that you don’t think are good behavior and, and. There are valid reasons not to like what’s going on or the way someone’s behaving. And then there are other reasons that might not be so valid, but really paying attention to that just because someone’s different or makes you feel awkward or is better at something than you are or is about the same at something as you are getting clear about that, isn’t easy and it’s not easy for grownups and it’s

Nina: No.

Dan: easy for kids.

Nina: It is so complicated and we, have better chemistry with people sometimes. And [00:38:00] I try to help people think about like, yes, you should probably invite the whole class to the third grade birthday party, let’s say. And that’s where the, you can teach your kids kindness and be inclusive, but to force a kid to be inclusive on every single thing, you’re not helping anyone.

But here’s the thing, when that kid only invites four people to their hangout after school on the last day of school or something

is that kid a bully or is that kid just making a choice to have a smaller hangout? it’s all how you frame it. that’s why I was saying about being on the other side of it. It’s very easy to call the other family exclusive. When your kid hasn’t yet reached the stage where they’re making their own choice about their relationships, and I agree, it’s the same for adults.

we adults don’t want to always be in packs of 20 people, 10 people, even five people. Sometimes you want to go out with a few people. And people are going to feel bad, but we all have to kind of get a little tougher, I think thicker skin.

Dan: I’m all for it actually. I like that independence and that resilience. and I think a lot of it can come from feeling socially confident and comfortable. I’ll jump back into my etiquette advocate shoes, but feeling like we’ve got good command [00:39:00] of social skills and a good understanding of what’s expected of us in different social circumstances. Regardless of the particulars of our relationship with somebody, I think is a good starting place to allow for a little more flexibility and mobility in terms of the way we form and break relationship bonds with people.

Nina: Well, that does lead to my final question when I put up the post saying, I was having you on, several people said, what is the technical etiquette for ending a friendship?

Dan: A friend breakup essentially. Not a fan of ghosting, not a fan of just disappearing out of a relationship. Although as a fighter or flight, I’m a flighter and it tends to be my escape mechanism is to disappear. But I recognize it’s not the best. the advice that we’ve been giving around romantic breakups forever is that the breakup gets the same level of attention that the relationship got. you know, if you’ve just exchanged a couple of messages on a dating app, but you’ve never gone any further than that, you can probably vanish. But if you get to the point where you’ve been talking on the phone, they probably deserve a phone call. so I [00:40:00] would think about the friendship and the nature of the friendship.

What is it that the friendship was comprised of? And I would try to honor that as I ended it. in terms of the logistics of it. There’s always the question of emotional expression and how well you can express yourself emotionally and how well someone else can perceive that. The more of your tools you bring to that, the better off you’re going to be.

If you can do it in person where they can look you in the eye and see the slight sadness in the corner of your eye or whatever it is, or, the certitude and the way that you talk and the way that you sit, that can all be part of the communication. If that’s not possible, maybe a phone call where it’s the tone of your voice, the speed, the inflection, that also has some information, some emotional content that someone else can perceive. to me, when you start to get to the written word for emotional content, it starts to get hard to interpret. It starts to get hard to really fill in all the gaps. Even basic nouns mean different things to different people. I say tree, someone in Vermont, pictures a maple tree right now. [00:41:00] Someone down south, pictures a palm tree.

let ’em give yourself a fighting chance. Try to bring as many tools to that conversation as possible. you talked earlier about being direct, being ready to actually say the thing I don’t even have the script for it. I’m curious, did you have a script that was working for

you

Nina: I don’t have a script. I sometimes will pivot this question, and I’m going to do it here right now too, which is, if it is possible to reframe the friendship, I. That would be my first thing. I think people forget that that is a possibility. It doesn’t have to be so black and white all the time. Not everything has to be we’re friends, we’re not friends. Like there is a universe in between that. what if it is a catch up on the phone? Twice a year. could you manage that? Would it be less harmful to you and perhaps any connection you might want to have in the future with this person?

And just your sense of wellbeing to keep some connection. Having that breakup conversation, and I’ve done it before and I’ve regretted it. It’s so final and it feels so traumatic. I’m not saying if somebody hasn’t done something really massive, well that’s a little [00:42:00] easier then, isn’t it? It’s not so hard to break up with someone who hurt you in a really deep way, but if it’s just okay, we’ve kind of grown apart, which is usually the case, we don’t have as much in common anymore.

I kind of feel put out when we have to go out or talk, Well, to me the solution to that would be do it a lot less, but it doesn’t have to be never. so that would be more, I’ve done an episode, with Dr. Miriam Kirmayer about quiet quitting. That’s more of that, and you, you hear that expression in the work place too.

This idea of taking it just down a couple notches, if you can, I would always try that first, but I do think that the direct conversation probably needs to happen if you just truly cannot have this person in your life. And I agree with you on ghosting.

It’s cruel to ghost a friend. I’m just talking the friend, uh, area. Somebody who’s been a friend to you at one time, a good friend deserves better than that.

Dan: Thinking about the relationship and honoring that, whatever it was, I think is a nice thought to hold onto, to draw out the best in yourself, navigating that, I also think it’s, reasonable that relationships grow and fade over [00:43:00] time and, maybe sort of revealing my later middle age.

I think there’s something actually kind of nice about that, having room for friendships to emerge and take more room and less room in your life as you move through different stages of your life. I think there’s something, really rich about allowing for that. so it doesn’t necessarily need to be a sad thing that, Your season with a friendship is passing. They come around again

Nina: Right. That’s why I like to not advocate, burning a bridge if possible. I just saw a funny video the other day, a woman was in her car and she was like, I love a miniseries. Not everything has to be g Grey’s Anatomy. And she was talking about friendships and she’s like, I love a seasonal friendship. Let’s just be summertime friends. That’s fine. I’ll see you this summer and then we’ll catch up in a few years. it was a nice spirit. I know she was just trying to be funny, but actually it really made me think all day. there’s something really refreshing about that take.

Okay. Dan, thank you so much for being here. I really, really love talking to you and I would love to talk to Lizzie too sometime, your cousin.

I think it’s so amazing that you’ve continued this work [00:44:00] and that your family has been at this for so long and this country is so lucky to have you. The world.

Dan: Oh, well you are so kind to say it, and it’s been a real treat being here with you. Thank you.

Nina: All right, uh, everyone come back next week when our friendships are going well. We are happier all around.

Dan: So long everybody.