Nina: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship. I’m your host, Nina Badzin. I’m a writer, a writing group leader, and a friendship enthusiast, a subject I’ve been writing about for at least eight years now.

I’m going to cut right to the chase and tell you that I have a publishing celebrity on the show today. She’s an author, a podcaster, a publisher, a CEO. And this next part we have in common—she’s a mother of four. Welcome to the one and only Zippy Owens.

Zibby: Thank you so much.

Nina: Zibby, I’m a huge fan. And not just because you also have four kids. It’s a real thing. I did an episode on friendship, chemistry, where I discussed some research about what makes people click. And one of the factors really is these tiny little commonalities. Like it seems so. [00:01:00] silly that it could be something like that, but it’s true. Like if I meet someone named Nina, we have an instant click. Have you ever met another Zippy?

Zibby: I have a few times. Zibby with an ‘I’ who I met on Facebook and she just got married, and I was all excited for her. We’ve become friends. It’s so funny.

Nina: It’s like that! After reading your book, I know that we have a lot more in common than that. Even little things, like we’re the exact same age. Our moms both went to Northwestern.

Zibby: Was your mom a Kappa?

Nina: She was an SDT.

Zibby: Ah, okay.

Nina: Yeah, we both published lots of essays in lots of places on the internet.We both love tennis and we are both major readers and recommenders of books. Although my platform is just a teeny tiny cute little dent of yours, but people do come to me for book recommendations, and that’s been a big part of what I do. So you understand what I’m saying is—I’m forcing you to acknowledge our friendship chemistry even though we don’t really know each other.

Zibby: Obviously we should be friends. Let’s just—

Nina: Yeah, exactly.

Zibby: Yeah. Done fine. We’re friends now.

Nina: Well, I know a lot about you and a lot of my listeners will also, but for some of my listeners you’ll be new. So I want to tell people [00:02:00] more before we get to the meat of this episode, which is actually a more serious topic.

Zibby is the founder of Zibby OwensMmedia, a privately held media company, designed to help people live their best lives by connecting to books and each other. The three divisions include Zibby Books, a publishing house for fiction and memoir, Zcast, a podcast network powered by Acast, including Zibby’s award-winning podcast, that I love, Moms Don’t Have Time to Read Books and Moms Don’t Have Time To, a new content and community site, including Zibby’s virtual book club, events, and the former Moms Don’t Have Time to Write, which I keep meeting to submit to.

Zibby is a regular columnist for Good Morning America and a frequent guest on morning news shows recommending books. She’s the editor of two anthologies: Moms Don’t Have Time to Have Kids and Moms Don’t Have Time To: A Quarantine Anthology. A children’s book, Princess charming. And now [00:03:00] a memoir, Bookends: A Memoir of Love, Loss, and Literature. Zibby lives in New York with her husband, Kyle Owens, who you can read a lot about in her memoir. It’s a wonderful romantic story. Kyle is of Morning Moon Productions, and she lives with him and her four children.

So Zibby, I read Bookends in only a few days on my Kindle, and I’m really excited to get the actual copy too. And I’m gonna be doing a giveaway on Instagram, but can you describe for my listeners what the book’s about, like your elevator pitch?

Zibby: Yes. My elevator pitch is Bookends is my deeply personal journey through the unexpected plot twists of my own life and the books that were my touchstone as I got through them all.

Nina: As a reader, I would say that Bookends has a lot of important story threads happening at the same time, all woven together. And like you said, with with a lot of mentions of books. But in terms of your own story, it starts as a personal family story of your grandparents rising in [00:04:00] America, and then is woven in with your own career story, which has its own really interesting trajectory.

And I can relate to a lot of it. I have a couple books that never got published. Almost got an agent and I’m glad it didn’t get published. In hindsight, it all happens for a reason. It’s a motherhood story. As I mentioned, it’s a romance, but very central to this memoir is the story of losing dear friends too soon.

And I’ve had episodes about helping friends who are sick and lots of episodes about friendship, breakups, and you know, when friends drift away, but I’ve never discussed the reality—and it’s only going to become more so as we get older—of grieving a friend.

Bookends in many ways reads like a love letter to three dear friends of yours, Stacey, Avery, and Paige, all who died fairly young. But before we really get into more of what I want to hear about in terms of mourning and grieving friends, I think it’s important that listeners who haven’t had the chance to read the book yet hear a little more about these friendships.

I don’t want you to have to like tell the whole story, because I know that’s very hard, [00:05:00] but if you could say a little about each one. And you render them so beautifully on the page. Each woman stands out. They were all different and important in different ways, but whatever you’re comfortable sharing.

Zibby: Sure. My best friend, Stacy Sanders, was my college roommate. We went to Yale. We met on the first day of school, lived across the hall from each other. We lived together the next three years. I moved to LA after college. And then when that didn’t work out, I moved back in with her back in New York City, where I’m from, and had lived with her until I went to business school just two weeks before the 9/11 attacks, which is how she died. She worked in one of the towers.

Stacy for me was— I was very shy as a child and a little socially uncomfortable. She was so confident and outgoing and just, I, I had never seen anything like it before, you know, I don’t have an older sister or anything. I have a younger brother and I just had not had that modeled for me.

And she really helped me come [00:06:00] out of my shell. I told her things that I would never think of telling other people. I had been very private. We were just really good compliments to each other’s personalities. And I think I helped her. We had lots of laughs all the time. We were just always laughing and having fun, but I was the one who would tell her, maybe not to wear strappy sandals and no tights on New Tear’s Eve, not that she always listened to me.

Nina: And that really comes off on the page, just so you know, I mean, you could tell what a fun spirit Stacy was and how important she was in bringing out certain parts of you.

Zibby: Yeah, she was. She was awesome. There are a lot of people out there who did consider and will always consider her one of their very, very closest friends. And yeah, she just had this lightness, even in a bad mood. She had this huge smile and sparkling blue eyes and her nose would crinkle when she smiled.

And, you know, she was really funny and awesome. And we would leave each other little notes all the time and [00:07:00] we were ever apart like writing postcards and, you know, we were just always in touch and very connected and her loss changed my life completely. And I realized that, she, she was the one who I had spent so many hours being like, what’s gonna happen with our lives and what should we do next? And when should we apply to business school? And when should we do that? And Talking about this whole quarter life crisis, where we having a quarter life crisis. And, and then when she just vanished without a trace, it, it just changed everything in the world for me. And I had to pack up.

Her stuff. I mean, even literally earlier today, my daughter was like, mom, did, you know, you had stuff in all these drawers. And I realized during the pandemic, I had like stashed so much stuff in this one cabinet and forgotten all about it, including honestly, one of my kid’s birth certificates. Not that I should repeat that, but anyway, I found all this stuff and I was like, oh, I should say this. I should save this. And I literally think back to the day when I was going through all her papers and how, when you die, somebody has to just go through and throw out all your papers. So I was— [00:08:00] I’m not gonna save these papers because I don’t want someone to have to just go through them when I’m dead and try to figure out why I even saved them.

So, I mean, that sounds depressing, but anyway, so that was Stacy. She was awesome. And everybody loved her. Avery passed away almost exactly a year later. She died by suicide. She was incredibly bright and loved to read. I think she started reading at age two. I mean, she was ridiculously bright, but did. Have to deal with some mental illness along the way. And it really started coming out our our junior year. But I met her my freshman year of high school, when she had, had to leave her boarding school and we became fast friends. And again, she was a little more daring than I was. You know, smoking cigarettes, like such a cool girl in central park.

And, I was in I don’t know, a skirt and flats or something ridiculous. And she was in like cutoffs and, you know, polo but anyway, I was not wearing cool, cut off Jean shorts. I’ll tell you that. You know, I tend to get really close with one person at a time sometimes. Like, I always have a group, but[00:09:00] Stacy and I had that in college. I had lots of good friends in high school who are still really close friends of mine. But Avery, wasn’t always friends with my whole friend group.

So the two of us would be kind of off to the side. And I, I would just, we walked to school together every day, starting sophomore year, I would walk up and pick her up and we would cross the park and she started doing drugs and she had serious eating disorders and eventually bipolar. I didn’t know what was happening.

I felt her sort of slipping through my fingers like sand. As high school went on and panicking about it and going to the school counselor and getting her doctors. And she tried to kill herself several times. , I visited her in inpatient clinics at eating disorder hospital anyway, but she was amazing. Just amazing. She graduated from Princeton in the midst of all of this and did well. She’s a genius

Nina: when you’re reading bookends . You describe everything that happened at nine 11, so clearly looking for Stacy, dealing with her apartment, like you and, and your other common friends and other friends of hers and her boyfriend you’re right there in the moment. And as a [00:10:00] reader, it’s like, we’re experiencing it with you. Kind of get through this moment with you. Of course, barely.

And then Avery, and you’re just as a reader. You’re like, no, what, how can Zibi have to deal with this? Enormous loss. By that time, you and Avery were, you know, weren’t as close, but you were still quite involved in helping her. And, we’re gonna weave these all together soon.

Can I tell you something I really appreciated about Paige? She’s such a light and something these three friends have in common, like the way you describe Stacy and Avery is bringing out just maybe a more fun side of you and Paige.

Also, and. Southern woman living in New York. And as your like older friend now, I’m, people’s older friend now that I’ve taken up tennis, I’m a little older in my tennis group and, and I have more kids and I have older kids. And so sometimes I’ll be like gather around ladies, like, not really, but it feels like I’m doing that.

And just like Paige did, I’m like, you don’t need to sign up for this and , forget that camp, that camp is a waste of money. Do this camp. It’s like, I’ve done it all. I have 17 year olds, [00:11:00] almost 18. I have a 15 year old and a lot of my tennis buddies have little, little kids.

So I, I feel like that’s part of what Paige was for you. A reasonable voice in your life.

ZIbby: Yes. Totally showed me the path. I was like, what do you mean? You can just not sign up for activities. I spent a bazillion hours debating this activity, that activity, and you know, none of it ended up mattering if I had just been more relaxed.

But of course you learn this as you get older, but I’m the same way as you. I mean, I, at this book event for princess charming, my children’s book, , I invited my son’s whole classroom first grade. And this one mom came up to me and was just like, I don’t understand, how do you find the time?

When did you do all this stuff and your other stuff and your podcast and blah, blah, blah. And I’m like, no, no, he’s my last kid,

Nina: last is totally different.

ZIbby: My older kids are 15 and they’re twins and I’ve been through this. I’ve been a mom for 15 years now. I’ve figured it out but when I was in your stage, not a chance, like I could barely.

Nina: Right.

ZIbby: You know,

Nina: totally different.

ZIbby: That’s [00:12:00] totally different,

Nina: but , sorry, I kind of interrupted our trajectory no’s so with Paige different scenario, less sudden, but let, let people know, about Paige and what happened there.

ZIbby: So I met Paige when I was in one of these mommy and me ballet classes and she came in late and holding her daughter.

She was beautiful. Blonde, bright red lipstick. And she just like came jumping in, plopped her daughter down in front of me. And, , I kind of looked over like, you know, of course I was like 10 minutes early and she said something like fourth kid, or I don’t even know what she said. Anyway, she just introduced herself.

We started chit chatting and I looked at her with this , awe, , here was this beautiful woman who just did not care about the things that I was so consumed by. And that ate me alive. That really ultimately were not important. And that I was so excited when I found. I guess two years later that our kids were in the same preschool class with only, I think, 14 kids.

So I ended up seeing her all the time and she’s from Kentucky madly love with her husband. She had five kids. [00:13:00] She drove. Sort of beat up white Bronco would always block traffic and she would just like pull up and throw her kids out, like have ’em run up the steps. , you know, I was taking everybody into their room, doing the whole kiss them goodbye for 20 minutes. I mean, you know, she was like byebye,

so, oh yeah. That first kid versus, well fifth for her. My goodness. Yeah. Well, that one maybe was her fourth, but yes. Five kids. Unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. She was really, and she also was such a magnet. She was friends with everyone. Everyone loved her. The way she looked at you and cared what you had to say.

So sweet, just so loving, very like spiritual and she’s amazing. She was just really great. And we became closer and closer as part of this group, six breakfast club of moms from that whole class. Really got lucky with that class of women and yeah. And then she got ovarian cancer and got over it once and then it came back and, and she passed away and, oh, it was just, you know, to, [00:14:00] I mean, just leaving all those kids and yeah.

Nina: Tragic. All, all three stories are really tragic.

ZIbby: I know. They’re all. I mean, there’s so much.

Nina: I was really struck by the way, you managed to step in and help in different ways in all three cases. Cuz when there’s a loss in. A family, like the role, the family members who are mourning is pretty clear. Unfortunately my dad died in December. Oh. And, my role was pretty clear. My role was to be sad, to grieve, to, you know, look out for my mom and stay connected to my sisters. And my friends’ roles were really clear to help me and I’ve done it too for people’s parents and grandparents who have died, but you’ll bring meals and show up to the funeral show up to the sh.

Check in send texts once a close friend, especially in the case of a, a Stacy, Avery and Paige who were like, these are tragic cases. It’s different than when someone much older dies. And just like we’re saying, the roles are just, just more obvious. , and then Judaism, by the way, I mean, it’s same thing.

For people who don’t know, [00:15:00] like when, a parent dies, you mourn for a year. And I mean, formally, obviously people take longer, take less time, take lots more time. And any other family role, including a spouse and including a child, it’s actually technically a month, all other roles. I imagine it was tricky what I want you to talk about is how do you know where to like step back in terms of the family, where to step in, by the way, this is also true in weddings and stuff.

, like your really best friend is getting married, but then there’s the sister mm-hmm and there’s the cousin. And it’s actually a similar issue. Where do friends. Step into these massive family moments. , we’ll put the wedding aside, but I actually think the feelings are kind of similar, which is, I guess what I’m talking about is territory.

ZIbby: All the situations were a little bit different. With Stacy, her. Parents were like incapacitated. And at first her sister was in Paris when it happened. Um, oh. And she could

Nina: she even fly in? Could she even get here?

ZIbby: Sh eventually she got back, but at first she wasn’t, [00:16:00] she wasn’t there. In fact, I met on Instagram, someone who was actually with her sister, right. Cuz

Nina: there were no flights, like it’s hard. It seems like it was just yesterday, but it really was a long time ago. It could be hard to remember that the planes, I mean, planes were grounded for a while.

ZIbby: I don’t know how it happened, but it was just very obvious. I feel like maybe Brian was leading the whole charge and everything with looking for the hospitals. And, , I don’t think it wasn’t me. I was not the one always calling Martha. Although I talked to her parents quite often, I. I can’t remember exactly, but I knew that , on these days, like we were the crew and we had to be there. And, , I remember being in therapy at the time and being like, was that fair to ask of you? And I was like, It doesn’t matter. It wasn’t just me. I mean,

Nina: well, right. No, I’m sure not,

ZIbby: it was all of us. And you know, I did not have that experience with Paige at all. And, you know, we were friends, we were good friends and I adored her, but I wasn’t one of her immediate best friends. She had friends from home. [00:17:00] Family and all that stuff. So

Nina: when she was a little bit older than, than when she was older. Yeah. And Stacy too. Right. So she collected more people in her life. It’s, it’s a little different.

ZIbby: , it didn’t even occur to me to get involved. I did send food and get involved.

I always reach out to other friends when something bad is happening to somebody. Right. So I remember it with Paige, I emailed. She had had another friend who had thrown like a celebration party when the cancer went away the first time. So when I heard she was sick again, I reached out to that friend and it’s like, what can I do, blah, blah, blah.

You know? I don’t have a clear cut answer. I think it’s instinct and well that’s different situations require , different things. And also if no one’s doing something, , I’m often one to be like, all right, well, let’s just get it done. Let’s, you know,

Nina: I feel like what you’re saying is you, you know, What the right thing to do is when you get there, like that gives me solace. That should, that happens. Like I’ll know when to step in when to step back. There is no prescribed. Role for anybody. Who’s not a family member, , you just figure it out. I guess

ZIbby: I will also say [00:18:00] that no one’s ever annoyed at getting more help for something, right.

Nina: That’s a great point.

ZIbby: Like no one is evaluating the person helping and thinking. Is she helping enough? Is she not helping enough? Oh, she overstepped. Oh, she shouldn’t be here. No one going through grief is thinking that at all, they don’t even have the capacity to be analyzing someone else’s behavior at that point. So if you wanna be the one who. Does something just don’t bother the people and ask lots of questions. Show up. If someone is sick, you just do it. I mean, someone I know , is going through a really tough cancer situation and, you know posted on Instagram about not having it. Like her house was a mess and she couldn’t get it. And I was like, I’m just sending you a housekeeper. Only right back, if you don’t want me to do that,

You just like have to do it. You just do it, you show up, you can show up uninvited, you can drop off food. You don’t stay for long, but sometimes you, you just have to be the one who’s looking around and assessing , what has to happen? Does this person have something to wear? Should I be the one going to the mall? And like getting them a dress, , but no one is [00:19:00] thinking, oh, she shouldn’t be here. No one’s ever thinking that you should always err, on the side of just being there for someone. That’s that’s my 2 cents.

Nina: I think that people need to hear that, you’re not being judged for being there. You will never be judge. For showing up. Yeah. That it’s always whatever it is, you can do what, even, even just being there. I mean, I I’ve talked about it in several episodes, but the people who showed up to my dad’s funeral, I, I will never forget that I will never, and I, you know, I interviewed Rachel Levy. Lesser. We spoke about her mom’s funeral and we both talked about how we remember that. Like, you barely remember what was said, what wasn’t said, and, and there wasn’t a focus on who didn’t show up either, by the way. It’s really just, you remember. Who was there, the college friend who got on a plane. It’s like, how did they do that? How did they rearrange everything in their life? And yet they did. And there’s so much gratitude. So, , with all this grief that the family’s feeling, I think a huge role of friends is. all this, this showing up and, and people [00:20:00] feel it.

ZIbby: Yeah, I would say, I mean, I, I dragged Kyle to a funeral of a mom, of someone who I went to preschool with who I hadn’t seen that the girl in 30, 40 years, I don’t even know, but I remembered her mom so well, and I was so sad that she had died, that I was like, I’m just gonna go to this funeral. And he’s like, how do we know her again? I’m like, I haven’t seen her since she was probably a 35 year old mom or a 30.

I don’t know. And a friend of mine’s mother just passed away and I’m like, yes, I am gonna drive up to Scarsdale and go to this funeral. I’m gonna cancel my podcast or do them in the car because. It’s not like I see her every day, but it’s someone that I love. And when someone you love has something going on, you just. You just go and you cancel and you show up. And I think if you’re ever saying to yourself, should I go to that? Person’s funeral? The answer is yes. Yes. You should go to that. Person’s funeral. Yes, you should.

Nina: Or at least send a note. , I love the handwritten notes. I got, I felt very connected to. Like you’re saying people who knew my dad when I was younger, when we were younger, even if we’re just Facebook [00:21:00] friends now, even to get a note on Facebook, like not just in the post, but in a message, just like the things they remembered about being at my house when I was a kid, it means so much.

So back to, , being the friend of someone who died, I could see how the family would really. Maybe not until later in hindsight, but appreciate the presence of their loved ones, friends mm-hmm who knew, like you knew Stacy and Avery and Paige in a different way than their parents did. And then their siblings did and their cousins and grandparents, it’s friends. And not just you, but all of Stacy’s friends and not, and Avery’s, and Paige’s, you knew these women just completely differently. It widens the morning circle. There’s an opportunity there for the family, , but you also have to be able to feel sad yourself. That’s just, it’s tricky. There’s no one answer, but you’re feeling sad, but you’re also there as an opportunity for that person’s family to see their loved one who died as like a full person.

ZIbby: Right? Yep.

Nina: I wanted to also talk about before we wrap up, just the way having [00:22:00] such close friends of yours die at a close age did affect your career. Talk about this a lot in the book, and I’m gonna read something from Bookends after Stacy died, and you were kinda struggling with what you wanted to do with your career. You were working a lot and, and you said if I was going to die at my desk, like I believe Stacy had, and if my life could end at any moment, then I had better be doing something that involved my whole self.

And then the, towards the end of the book, you come full circle and you say, um, and anyone who’s followed your career can, I mean, I got chills reading this cuz you know, I followed you for a while you say I found my purpose on earth, something worth dying at my desk for. I’ve gone through the depths of grief only to rise up again and again and again, because what choice did I have? My deep understanding that life is short and that I could be next, propels me to follow my heart, stand up for what I believe in and work hard to make a difference while I can. We get to do this only once time is ticking [00:23:00] moms don’t have time to waste. I like literally good chills. Even reading it here. I hope you get chills here in your own words.

Because in between those two quotes, what I read at first, and what I read at the end is an entire life’s trajectory. I mean, you meet Kyle, you, you change careers. It’s almost as change careers. Doesn’t feel like the right expression. It’s like you move towards the path that you were always meant to be on.

That’s what I see. You’re just moving towards it and you’re being nudged along and you’re. Realizing that certain opportunities are the ones you want, but , it was always there. You just had to hop to it. Anyway. Anything else you wanna say about that? I mean, I read your own words, but

ZIbby: no, it’s true. I mean, I feel that very top of mind on a daily basis. I would evaluate everything I was doing based on that for a long, long time. Is this really me? Or could someone else just pop in here? And market these beverage for cookies. They could, am I having fun? I am having fun. Am I doing anything? Am I bringing myself to this job? Or am I executing a function? Any [00:24:00] anybody could execute now again, I’m coming from a position of privilege where I get to choose what job I do. And I’m very lucky for that. Right? But not everybody has the luxury to, to do a job that makes them feel completely fulfilled and have purpose.

Not that I knew by the way, what this was for like a bazillion years. Right. But I really believe that Stacy was sitting at her desk and died and she took that job to pad her resume for business school, to get into business school, to get a better job, as you know, it it’s just such a tragedy.

And so. I just didn’t wanna waste my time doing something anybody else could do and do probably better. I mean, when I got to business school, I was like, oh, people are , super passionate about Mar marketing. I enjoy it and, and all that, but I met people who were their life’s dream was to be a marketer. My life’s dream was to be an author. That’s why after I left, I took a year off to write a book because I was like, if I don’t write a book, it’s not gonna be one of these things. That’s gonna sit on my bucket list. This is what I have to do now.

Nina: I always tell the, the writers, I lead these writing groups and a hard reality for people to. Understand. As [00:25:00] no, one’s gonna beg you to write a book. If you wanna write a book or write an essay, it’s very rare. Like maybe when you’re Oprah or certain Katie cur or what. Yeah. People are asking you to write a book, but the average person who is interested in writing, like no, one’s knocking down your drive being like, you must write this way.

Has to come from. Your deep desire to do it, cuz it’s hard work . Even the stage you’re at with a big audience, you still have to get out there and get that book in people’s hands. It just never really stops.

ZIbby: Yeah. Doesn’t stop. Just getting started.

Nina: Right. So it’s I think incredible that you. We’re able to see that early, but when people read the book, they’ll see it. Wasn’t like an overnight thing. You didn’t face, these losses, quit your marketing job. And then everything fell into place. I mean, it was many, many years of hard work, but it seems like these losses, like you said, were top of mind, like you were constantly asking yourself is this is really what I, how I wanna spend my life.

ZIbby: Yeah. And that’s why when people are like, how do you do all the things you do right now? I’m like, are you kidding? I had all this energy penned up [00:26:00] for all the years. I stayed home and I have finally , clicked into gear, right? If you’re skiing and like all of a sudden you’re on this downhill and everything is perfect and the snow is right and the Mountain’s right.

And the sun is shining and you’re like, I’m just gonna keep going. That’s sort of how I feel right now. , I’m gonna keep going until I reach the bottom of the hill. But in the meantime, I’m gonna go as fast as I can. All away. so that’s where I am right now.

Nina: I get it. And I know people say that to you and, and it comes up in the book and I I’ve seen it online how do you do it? How you do it. , I get it more now. I probably thought that too, following you, but I get it now, more reading the book. , you do it because you can and have the opportunity to, and you get to be here and it’s different. It’s different than when you lose somebody older and having your own peer, , it just makes you face your mortality and even reading about it made me face mine a little more.

ZIbby: I mean, I think about it all the time. I have a cult and last night I’m like in bed, I can’t breathe and I’m like, Wouldn’t this be terrible. I’m gonna die two days before my book comes out, , of a cold like, that will be a really bad story. [00:27:00] You know, I don’t wanna die of a cold and like suffocating in my bed tonight anyway.

Nina: Yeah, no, I love at the end of the book, by the way, you, I don’t have the quote with me, but people have to find it actually. Pulled it out. And I thought I wanna read the whole end cuz I, I don’t wanna ruin the end, but I, the gist of it, I love how you talk about having written the novel 40 love and then, you know, realizing it was not the story the way you wanted to tell it.

And, and then you say something along the lines of. You know, I decided I was gonna tell the story the way I wanted to. And I think I just did, or I just did or something like that. I just love that. And I, it’s just a great example for people to never give up and to own their own stories.

And I just really appreciate you being here. I’m gonna wrap us up because I am committed to not having super long episodes. and so are you, yeah, I appreciate that about your podcast also. Zibi is there, any last thing you wanna say about the book?

ZIbby: I guess just, I hope people find pieces of themselves in my story and use it [00:28:00] to do the things that they felt like maybe were too hard to do. And if I could help a few people with that, With getting over that hurdle, I’ll feel really, really amazing.

Nina: I think that you will succeed in that. I, I know I felt that reading it and from a friendship perspective, the lesson in there that we talked about here and then is very much in the book of just showing up, not waiting for permission, not waiting for someone to ask, not feeling like you’re in the way, just whatever the situation showing up in whatever way you can is the most important thing you can do as a friend,

ZIbby: a hug goes a long.

Nina: I love that Zi. Thank you so much for being here and sharing these pieces of your story with us. , you can find zibi@zibiowens.com and on Instagram at Zibi Owens. And if you like discussing friendship topics, you can join along in the chats and my Facebook group, dear Nina, the group, I’d love to see all of you there. And I’ll see you all back here in a few weeks, because when our friendships are going well, we are happier all around.[00:29:00]