Nina: [00:00:00] Hello everyone. This is the forgiveness episode of dear Nina, a truly candid conversation with one of my best friends, Rebecca Kotak, who for a while in our twenties was my ex best friend. Even hearing her name back then would put a pit in my stomach and make me ashamed. Angry guilty, regretful and sad because ultimately I really missed her.

And that’s the point of this episode, Rebecca and I managed to forgive each other. But the truth is because we were so happy to finally be reconnected. Once an olive branch had been extended, we never spent much time diving into what had happened in the first place. The episode you’re about to hear with Rebecca.

Is one of the most listened to dear Nina episodes of all time. So sit back, relax and remain optimistic that a friendship can go very wrong and then get very right when the power of forgiveness takes hold. And for more content about friendship, all the good, all the bad everything in between. Find me on [00:01:00] subs@dearnina.subs.com.

And please tell a friend, if you’ve been liking the show, it really helps when people spread the.

Welcome to another episode of dear Nina conversations about friendship. In today’s episode, we are discussing whether it’s possible to truly forgive a friend who hurt you and whether you can restart a friendship that ended forgiving someone. Doesn’t always mean staying friends or becoming friends.

Again, the main part of today’s episode will focus on the very close friend who gave me a second chance. And I’m so grateful. The timing of this episode is no accident. The Jewish high holidays are upon us and for the entire time period as the holidays approach, but especially between Russia Shah and Yom Kippur, we’re supposed to approach the people we have heard and ask for forgiveness. This isn’t something you do on the actual day, Yom, Kip port.

It’s something you do in the time leading up. There was no better person to bring on, to [00:02:00] discuss the topic of forgiveness than one of my very best friends, Rebecca Kotak, who, and I can only say this here because we’ve worked through it a long time ago is somebody I hurt after college. She accepted my apology years later and we became closer than ever.

And there is way more to the story, which Rebecca and I will tell you together, since the story involves both of us. Before we hear from Rebecca. Let me tell you a little bit about her. Rebecca is a certified kindergarten through 12th grade professional counselor. She’s the lead mental health professional at an elementary school in Montgomery county, Maryland serving almost 600 students from diverse backgrounds.

A fun fact is that Rebecca and I both have four kids. She’s one of the smartest and wittiest people. I know, and I’m really lucky. She took me back. Hi, Rebecca.

Hi

Rebecca: means so happy to be here. Thanks for having me. So will

Nina: you tell everyone how we first met? Since we just heard a lot from my voice, I want the people to hear you.

Rebecca: It was late August. [00:03:00] 1995, right? It was freshman year at Washington university in St.

Louis showed up, did all the orientation stuff, went to my dorm room. I’m in my dorm room, very excited setting it up. Of course, I’m walking down the hall and everyone has like a name plate on their door that says their name and their hometown. So I’m looking, I’m looking and low and behold two doors down.

I see Nina Saim Highland park, Illinois. So. Knock on her door. And I say, hi, I’m Becky. I was born in Highland park and we looked at each other and it was kind of like love at first sight for friends. I can’t remember anything else about that first conversation, but we didn’t stop talking for basically three and a half years.

Nina: , exactly. And at a, and at the same speed, like I had finally met someone who spoke as quickly as I did. For the listeners, you should know. We’re both like making an effort to talk in a normal pace here so that it’s listenable, but we both talk fast and we both had a lot to say, I thought you had an accent.

And I think you thought I [00:04:00] had an accent, cuz that used to be like Chicago

Rebecca: and you do have an

Nina: accent. And I thought you had a, an accent. I never heard because I’d never heard a Maryland accent before. It was just so we just

Rebecca: say in, we just say in Maryland, we just talk normal and everybody else has accents, but, um, right.

Nina: Yes. I’ve had several people tell me since listening to the podcast who only knew me through the writing world, that they could not believe my accent. So people still say it’s there. Uh, one thing I think about our freshman year is. We became like a home base for each other. And a lot of people have that, uh, in college or, well, if they don’t, I think college is hard for them when people enjoy school.

I think it’s cuz they have that home base person, the friend you always check in with, you make sure that, you know, you’re eating meals together, not every single meal, but it’s, especially those first few months, it’s like going to parties together, going to meals together. And this is before cell phone times.

So it’s like hard for my own kids to, or yours to probably even picture. But you couldn’t just text somebody and. Did you get home? Okay. Or do you wanna go to this [00:05:00] thing tonight? I mean, you had to physically knock on the door. We had landlines, but I mean, I don’t feel like we used them that much. I think that was a voicemail.

Rebecca: We, we did a little, but mostly we used the dry erase boards on each other’s doors. Yes. Yes. And it would be like at Olin or at the B school or find me in the bakery, but you’re right. I mean, home base is like the perfect way to say it. And I actually think. It’s really important for listeners to understand just how close we were that it wasn’t just a friendship.

It was really like family. Um, we connected on so many levels and just like you said, we just really grabbed onto each other. And some of our other close friends and every move we made was in consultation with one another where we were studying what classes we were taking. Yeah. It was a really, really special.

Nina: We got to know each other’s families. Like I came to visit you in DC and you came to Chicago and, and we knew the characters in each other’s families.

Rebecca: Yes. And I had always seen Mike DKA from the Chicago bears with those really ugly sweaters with all that color. And then Ron Sackheim came to parents’ weekend [00:06:00] and he was wearing that sweater and had the hair and had the hair and the mustache.

And I just. This is how every middle-aged man in Chicago dresses, I, I had no idea and, and Kathy comes and Ron comes. I thought they were characters. I had seen them for sure on TV before, but Ron, with his hair and his mustache and his, his, his sense of humor and this. Sweater. It was like Mike DKA and de bears.

It was every skit I had ever seen before. And my parents are from the Midwest and there was this instant connection of families. My parents still think of you as someone who I grew up with because you know, 18 to.

To 21. We really did grow up together in a lot of ways. So, yeah.

Nina: Right. I know. Cause it, we both have childhood friends, so we seem like we came later, but we’re in our forties now. So that was a long time ago. So it’s funny. I wrote in my notes, things went south.dot and , I didn’t write much else.

I thought we would just talk about it, frankly, because of course there were all the good times. I think anyone who had a really close friend can picture what good times look like. [00:07:00] When things go south on a friendship, that’s where it gets different for each friendship. And it wasn’t just one thing. I think part of what makes our story.

Sort of confusing in terms of confusing. Like we were so close, how do we not, how could we not be close? Is it wasn’t like one thing happened. We didn’t ditch each other to live with someone else. Sophomore year or junior year or senior year. We lived together every year. Cause sometimes rooming, it becomes a huge college issue.

Like somebody made other plans there wasn’t a boy issue. Not directly. Anyway, it wasn’t over a boy there wasn’t just one thing. So what do you think? And I dunno that we’ve ever really talked about. Oh, we probably have, but non

Rebecca: detail. It’s funny. I was just talking to my youngest daughter who is really, , empathetic.

And she said, what did you fight about? Like in two seconds, I told her I was doing this podcast. She’s like, well, what did you fight about? And I was like, well, you have to listen to the podcast. I said, well, I can’t exactly explain it because she’s looking for one tangible thing. But when I was thinking about preparation, just thinking [00:08:00] my, in my head about today, this is how I think of how we drifted.

I think of the sort of quote or mantra, people don’t see the world as it is. They see the world as they are. So I think that our drifting was much less about interpersonal conflict between the two of us and more so about how each of us was processing our junior year abroad that we did separately.

And then our senior year, you were processing a. Very important relationship that turned into the most important relationship in your life. And I was processing other things. So I think that our friendship was a casualty of. The way that we were both experiencing senior year, , there was no precipitating event.

, I like when you said the word drifted , it wasn’t one big thing, which almost made it harder. In some ways it was more that, , we both were going through stuff that wasn’t so positive and we just weren’t. Able to be there for each other in the ways that each other needed the other one to be there.

Yeah.

Nina: That’s a really good summary at junior [00:09:00] year, I think for sure is the real beginning. I think it comes from, you said something that is so key. We weren’t necessarily in our happiest places in life. It’s not like one person was. Doing amazing. And the other person wasn’t, I, I know junior year for me was really hard.

I was in Santiago from January through July. Rebecca was in Tel Aviv, no Jerusalem, Jerusalem, both really, but studying in, in Jerusalem, I was having a really weird semester, very lonely. , and I wonder if it would’ve been better, if let’s say we are going to college now and we have those same Condit.

Really close friends, went abroad, separate places. Your place was way more fun. You were with a lot more kids. We weren’t kids, you know, people in their twenties. I think, I think it was just more fun. Mine was like, so kind of quiet and there was a loneliness, but I bet if we had social media, you know, sometimes social media can be for the worst.

I bet if I felt more plugged in to the world, maybe I wouldn’t have felt so untethered and I wouldn’t have come back senior year with [00:10:00] bad attitude. I don’t know what the heck happened. I wouldn’t even change. Having studied in San Diego, but I came back just really lost.

I didn’t know what I wanted to do anymore for a job. And I was really, I was just unhappy. And I think when you’re unhappy, it is hard to be your best self. It’s not a good excuse. Right. It’s just, I wish I could have been a little more upbeat senior year and I wasn’t, I was even having met Brian. That didn’t exactly make me happy it, , it wasn’t like I was running around with this boyfriend and I think I was , maybe even depressed a good chunk of that year in hindsight.

Rebecca: Yeah. I mean, I think a couple of things happen. I think you’re right. I came back from Israel like Woohoo, best semester ever. And you came. Much calmer and really pensive. And it was like the best friend I had sent off. Isn’t the one that came back, you know, I think I resented that and I still wanted to do everything together and I wanted to study it.

I remember, I would say, Hey, let’s go to the B school at nine and study. And you would say, well, [00:11:00] actually I’m gonna go to Olin at nine 15. And I just was like, come on, we gotta do this together. We’ve always done this together. And it just felt like you. Really separating from me. And I wasn’t very forgiving of that.

So it’s funny that you started this by saying that you hurt me cuz I think we hurt each other. , I think it was a very mutual kind of hurt and a mutual kind of drifting. And then there was, you know, that moment that we’ll get to when you just really couldn’t be in that friendship anymore and needed to take what we now know is a break, but what felt pretty final at the time.

And that’s a lot, what we focus on is that moment of separation. When I reflect 20 years later, I think we really heard each other that year. And I think that, in some ways you ending, it was probably the only thing that really could have saved it because I think if we had kept on just hurting each other, it would’ve gotten to a point of.

Irreparable damage. And so I can see that now. I definitely didn’t see that at the time, but , we just were not the same people. When we came back from being abroad. I think you had changed a lot. , you were changing your major. You were just going through a lot. You had journaled a [00:12:00] lot. You had reflected a lot.

And then of course you met Brian. And I think that what happen with Brian is I attributed a lot of your changes to meeting him when in reality, that was like a. Silver lining of your year, right? That was like the best thing that happened. Obviously he ended up being your fantastic husband, father of your kids.

Poor Brian, got blamed for a lot of stuff that really had nothing to do with him, but it probably prepared him well for, you know, marriage. Yeah.

Nina: Right. Exactly. I think I was ready to meet Brian because of the changes I had gone through. So if I hadn’t gone to Santiago had. Had a total change in, in career.

So I was like always heading to law school. This is for the listeners. I know, you know, this, I came back from my junior year, decided I canceled my LSAT tutor. I canceled the LSAT appointment. I mean, I was a huge change for someone who was so directed, but it’s not like I knew what I was doing. And then I met Brian, but it was like, yeah, that was her senior year to have such a serious boyfriend in some ways.

Right. It was, we he’s four years older . He had an apartment by himself. [00:13:00] We were like having this sort of adult relationship, but I was 21. It was probably a little bit. Yeah. And

Rebecca: I think, I think it was the perfect storm kind of, uh, to sort of destroy our friendship as it, as it were kind of blow it up in that iteration because we both came back from being a abroad.

We were both different in different ways. We didn’t really give each other the space to kind of be different. , we didn’t ask questions. We just judged a lot on both ends. And then Brian was sort of the most tangible scapegoat, right? He was the easiest one to kind of blame for me, that relationship, you know, that that’s what caused it and that’s what caused everything.

And it sort of felt like after, you know, three years of being best friends and doing everything together now he comes along and it. You know, passing the Baton. That’s how I felt like onto the next, there was so much more to it than that. And of course I see my role now and I see that it was much more about how each of us came to senior year.

It was really easy to just blame it on Brian and on your relationship with him. And so I think that’s when it started to go really downhill.

Nina: Yeah. And we did try to keep up a long [00:14:00] distance friendship. After that. I actually can picture the apartment I was living in. I stayed in St. Louis an extra year worked and kind of waited for Brian to finish grad school.

And you went back to Washington DC, right? Yes. You didn’t you go to DC first? I did. Yeah. We tried to stay friends. So here’s another way where smartphones might have changed it. And I’m glad that we actually ended up having. End for a bit, like you said, cause without that break, I don’t think we’d be as strong as we are now.

And like you’re the, one of the most important people in my life. I remember talking to you on like a landline in my apartment in St. Louis. And so you had to be really talking on the phone to catch up. There’s no Facebook, there was not texting. I mean, there was basic texting, like late, you would write something, question mark or something.

There wasn’t real text. If we had been able to text, I bet we would’ve gone on like. For decades and that in a good way, we would’ve just checked in every so often and we would’ve just kind of let it hang on. I

Rebecca: [00:15:00] agree. I think it just would’ve drifted.

I completely agree I’m glad looking back. I mean, how can you not be glad when you look at where our friendship started and you look at where our friendship is now, it’s really hard for me to convey to the listeners how close we were and how close we are.

I have goosebumps, literally goosebumps right now. Thinking about how important you are. To me, it’s really hard to explain, but like all that magic that we had over three years and then the break, and then now I just wouldn’t have it any other way, because you are one of the very few, most important people when we talk it’s like therapy for me.

And so we didn’t even practice this cuz we’re like, Nope, our conversations are great. They should always be recorded. So I can’t regret how anything went because the result is so amazing.

Nina: Exactly. So the break part, we have to mention briefly, cuz we keep referring to it. Oh, I hate this part. I know it’s a horrible part, but we know it has a happy ending.

I basically said on the phone one day, I don’t think we should keep talking. I mean, I think that’s what it comes down to it. I was like, we we’re having these sort [00:16:00] of forced conversations. I think. Neither of us really looked forward to talking thought at the time I was putting us both out of our misery and I thought it was better to just have the good memories we had and not continue to sort of force it into something else.

I still don’t think I wouldn’t advise it to anybody only cuz we had all these friends in common, even though it ended up having a happy ending, it was pretty brutal along the way. It was not a kind thing to do. That’s why I started with, I hurt you. Then we have all these friends in common. We have.

Weddings were both invited to, I remember you and a bunch of people that I was also friends with still came to St. Louis to visit and kind of have a reunion and said, well, what were you and I supposed to do in that scenario? I think I didn’t come to anything. Maybe I saw one person on the side.

I don’t know.

Rebecca: It was, it was ugly. It was really ugly. It was, I just, you know, added fairness to you. And that was a very abrupt thing. It was actually in a letter by the way. Not on the phone.

Nina: No, the letter was the forgiveness. Oh, sorry. I

Rebecca: just remember getting a letter and in my, no, the letter was

Nina: asking forgiveness.

You’re right.

Rebecca: Years later. Okay. We’ll get there. , yes, it was very abrupt. [00:17:00] It was a very abrupt thing to do. But with the benefit of hindsight and maturity, it was the only place it could go. When I think back how we were to each other, we just, weren’t very kind to each other.

We weren’t very accepting. It was a lot of judgment. , and really that taught me so much, , how to be a better friend in my friendships, you know, moving forward. But again, it’s hard when you’re both kind of in a bad spot, so. Right after college, when we were talking and whatnot, I was in a really bad place.

, I was trying to get out of a relationship that wasn’t really the best and just leaving college, which had been so safe and fun for me. So like, I’m at this moment, that’s really hard for me and you’re moving forward with this boyfriend. And so there was just like a lot of feelings there that really weren’t necessarily about us, but because I think of the way we had heard each other mutually senior year, and then you kind of took this, you know, this drastic step, which again, at the time felt very.

Mean and unkind. In retrospect, I think it was a gift because I think it saved us and gave us the space we needed to become the people we were meant to be, and then to come back together. And I also definitely take [00:18:00] responsibility for having contributed to the feelings that led you, you know, to that place.

Nina: I can’t believe I did that when I think of who I am now, I can barely. Like return something at target. It’s not that I’m not confident, but I, so non-confrontational, it’s reminding me of what you’re saying. It’s hard to talk to, to people and, and to be honest, right. I can’t believe I did that, but I did it.

I was heartbroken too. I mean, I, I broke us up, basically. It was like a breakup. It was, was totally like a breakup. I was just missing you terribly and really regretting it. Oh, we should say that I got engaged and married in the time we weren’t speaking. And it’s still to this day. I know it’s a sore spot to this day.

Bananas to me that you were not at my wedding. It’s like we have been friends now for 20 some years, minus two, basically, cuz it was really two years off. How is that possible?

Rebecca: That felt very hurtful to me. That was, that was really hard. That was really hard. And to see people at your wedding who were, I know less close, you know, than we were, that was really.

Really hard, but you know what again, if that’s what we needed to do to [00:19:00] get to where we are, which I really do think it was, I don’t regret it. You know, if you guys ever renew your vows though, can I come? Can I be a flower?

Nina: Oh totally. I, we were so young when we got married. It was like nobody from Minnesota.

Obviously. I didn’t know anyone here. It’s crazy to me. My friends from here, weren’t there. We’re definitely gonna, I, I wanna have some sort of wedding thing one day. Here’s the thing. I don’t know if you remember this, but you never wrote me back from that letter. I wrote a letter. Oh, I kind of skipped ahead.

Well, I said, I, after two years, I sat down and wrote a really long letter handwritten, which is hard to believe. Cause I have the worst handwriting in the whole world. I sent it. I had your, I got your address from our mutual friends and sent you this letter and you did not write me back. I’m gonna tell you why.

Rebecca: Yes. I, I don’t think I’ve ever told you why. No, you haven’t. Okay. So I was in my apartment in Washington, DC, and I go down to my mailbox cuz like mail was still exciting. It’s usually bills. And there’s this letter in the worst left handed handwriting. I knew immediately who it was from. And my heart sank.

It was like a boyfriend getting back in touch with you, after TW. You know, two years, it was [00:20:00] just, it was so dramatic. I mean, I felt like there was music, Aaron, my boyfriend at the time who now became my husband. I mean, these poor men, they have just like been along for the ride. They’re like, wait, do we hate her?

Do we like her we’re best friends. Okay, great. And so I got it and I was like shaking. And he was like, what, what? I was almost crying and basically I read the letter and everything washed over me. All the fun memories, all the pain, all the hurt, the reason I didn’t write back.

And I remember. So clearly that letter is because I felt like you had had all the power in whether we were friends or not. You had taken away the friendship. And then when you wrote that, I felt like I had the power for the first time in two years. And I remember not wanting to let go of that power. It came from a place of pain, not a place of control.

Well control to. Avoid pain. , I wanted to hold onto that because for once, this is how it felt to me at the time, it felt like the ball was in my court. And I wasn’t gonna give that up so easily because letting you back in that was me, that felt messy. I wasn’t sure what that was gonna look like.

Had you kind of come back from this and then [00:21:00] not letting you in was then my decision, which again, I was just glad to have the ball in my court. , she turned it off now she’s turning it on, but now I. Sort of the power to decide. And that’s what it felt like at the time that for the first time in this tumble, I had some control.

Nina: Oh, that makes total sense. And I think maybe a whole nother year might have gone by with no word between us. And then we were both invited yes. The wedding, the summer of the weddings, but there’s two weddings. We both knew that we were both going to be at two weddings in one summer.

, I was. Anxious before. I, I can’t even imagine knowing myself even how I am now. I’d be just as anxious. Now, if I was having some sort of strife with somebody worse than any return at any target anywhere would be having to show up at a wedding to see somebody who you wrote a letter to.

A year earlier or something. We sat, we, we took

Rebecca: a walk. No, we did that at the wedding, but what, how did we, oh, I, we had had some sort of communication that we were going to talk. We had some agreement. I don’t remember cuz I don’t remember [00:22:00] what cellphones were like. Then we had some very brief. We will take a walk or we will talk, there was something set up that we were gonna talk.

Yeah,

Nina: I agree. Cuz I, we must, I dunno how else I would’ve shown up at that wedding. I, it would’ve been hard to get me there. Otherwise that sounds familiar. Yeah. So we decided we did, we, we, it was a New York city and we took a walk, honestly, the way I remember it is instant chemistry from freshman year. I wanna say that it wasn’t like nothing had happened, but at that time you didn’t really wanna talk about it that much.

That’s why I say you’ve never really had addressed. Not writing back. We have discussed our friendship and stuff in the meantime, but we hadn’t really talked about that year of not writing back.

Rebecca: Yes. Uh, again, again, I think I, you know, kind of talked about how it just felt like really good to finally have the control.

And my recollection is so similar to yours that when we got back together and we spoke again, we did talk, we did. Sort of the conflict and like we did to some extent, but it was a very small part of us reconnecting. I thought that we both felt like we were very mature about that. [00:23:00] Like we had this great conversation.

I remember patting ourselves on the back as you and I off do. Yeah. Um, like, I mean, I’m surprised we don’t have some pulled muscles there. We were still proud of ourselves. , , we talked about what had happened, but we. Dissect it. And we didn’t go into all those feelings. We were both in really good places in our lives.

And again, yes, we don’t see the world as it is. We see the world as we are, as we come to it. And we had come to that wedding. You were so happy in your marriage. I was so happy in my engagement. We were both having fulfilling careers. . When we were happy, we were able to see the other in a different way.

And so we spent, I would say 20% of the time talking about what went wrong and then 80% of the time just reconnecting and doing exactly what we had always done. And I just, I also wanna talk in a moment if it’s okay about our first conversation on the phone, after the wedding, we talked and , we said to each other, okay.

We both said, this is like a watershed moment. We’re. It was awkward. The first time we spoke was awkward on the phone, cuz we had not spoken for a long time. We had connected at the wedding. It’s kind of like you’re with a guy at the bar, [00:24:00] but then the sun comes down and like, I don’t know what’s gonna happen here now.

It’s sunlight. Yeah. So it was sunlight on our one night stand and we talked and we said to each other, and I remember thinking this is 50 50. We said, we are not going to Harbor on what happened. We’re not gonna focus on it and just talk about it and talk about it. Do we have anything to talk about?

Like, is there more to this friendship, right? Has it run its course. and we made up and we can kind of tie it up in a bow. And we had this conversation , okay, maybe it was just a good friendship and now we ended it more friendly and it feels better to. Not have that anger in the world or are we gonna continue?

And we really didn’t know. And then it was like fireworks. Then every day, every week, every month we just talked for hours and hours. And the greatest thing, I don’t know if I’m jumping the gun, but I hate talking about that earlier. Part of the friendship, I much prefer to

Nina: talk about we on the forgiveness, there was true forgiveness.

There,

Rebecca: there was true forgiveness. We were both able to see our role. We were both able to tell the other what really hurt about their role. There were apologies. Tears. But then we [00:25:00] just moved forward and we created new memories and new ways of talking to each other and it made us better friends. It’s almost like when you go through something like that.

I mean, our friendship, I always say we have the most examined friendship in the history of friendships. There’s nothing that we can’t talk about cuz we’ve been through hell and back. Really. It was so painful. More painful than any

Nina: other person. Yeah. I, I don’t even think we can convey it. It. Yeah, it was

Rebecca: horrible.

Like a pit in my stomach for two years. And now to have it back, it’s like having you in my life and being long distance, we’re able to be open with each other. This is a whole other podcast, but that’s actually a great topic for a podcast is like long distance friendships. We’re able to talk about things that you don’t necessarily wanna talk about when you’re going out with another couple, the next night, you know, about our kids, about our spouses.

We can be so open cuz. See each other on a daily basis. So it doesn’t have that sort of, you’re trying to kind of package it and make sure you’re like, oh, but we’re really happy. And my kids are great. , we can really get into it.

Nina: Yes. We are so honest with each other and we’re not invested in each other’s other friendships and there’s, there’s just no skin in [00:26:00] the game in a good way.

You can really talk to me about anything going on in your life and I can talk to you about anything going on in, in my life and really I trust your advice. . I just know it’s coming from only a pure place of listening and trying to help the other person. Yeah, absolutely.

Rebecca: Absolutely.

Nina: Another thing I love about our adult friendship is that we can go two months without speaking.

Like I don’t wanna mislead people that we’re sitting on the phone every day. We’re really not. I mean, we could go two months, three months, we’re not talk at all. And we don’t text a ton either. But when we do, when there’s something that a story that needs to get out, I sort of see it like a talk for five minutes every day for three days, just to.

A story out and then we might not talk for a while, but it’s, it’s just, I know you’re there. And by the way, when did you get married? What year? , 2003. Okay. So I was at your wedding. , I mean, it’s been a long time. That was

Rebecca: very big of me. That was very big of me. It really was being the petty 25 year old that I was to invite you was very big

Nina: and we had such a good [00:27:00] time.

And Brian, I love you. And Erin, like we always say, we need to plan a trip or something. I know so that we can make our kids meet friendship. I value so much. And the piece of forgiveness is so clear there. Cause a lot of people can. Move on. They cannot move on if their feelings have been hurt. So do you have anything else you wanna add about

Rebecca: that?

Yeah, I mean, I think that I was so angry for so long when you sent the letter, a lot of that anger melted away just immediately right under it, of course, with sadness. And I think once I could access the sadness. That was a place for which to heal and to move forward because when you’re angry, it’s not a very useful emotion and it really just masks, whatever else is happening underneath that.

And so I was so angry at you and I had built you up to be this horrible monster, because it protected me from feeling the sadness. You wrote the letter, a lot of it melted away and then we saw each other. It was. Oh, this is crazy. , what are we doing? You know? And it was kind of this moment of , am I gonna stand on ego and pride and just not invite her [00:28:00] to my wedding and not move forward and kind of tip for tat.

Cause that was a big decision for me, but it wasn’t a hard decision. It was an important decision, but it wasn’t hard. It wasn’t like do I don’t I, it was like, okay, of course. Yeah. I’m just so glad that we were both. Able and willing to kind of come back together because I cannot imagine my life without you, without your family, without Brian, Brian, I hope, you know, I hope he’s listening, Brian, but we talk about Brian a lot, obviously, and Aaron, and you guys just feel very real and very.

A part of my daily life, even though we don’t, you know, live in the same place, I’m kind of like how you were talking about your semester in Chile. I don’t regret anything. Do I wish it had gone differently? Yes. But when I look back on how it is now and how it was for most of our friendship, those two years feels like water under the bridge.

And I do believe that everything that happens does propel you forward, even if it feels like backwards in the moment. So that two year break allowed us to be where we are.

Nina: It’s a great note to end our story on, and we probably could talk a lot more, but [00:29:00] I try to keep my episodes , at. good length.

So we’re gonna go on to two voicemails. One is from somebody who also has a forgiveness story that worked out really well like ours. And then one person has one where it really didn’t work. And I think it’s important to hear from that point of view too. The first voicemail is being read by my friend, Amy, who is a writer with a couple really great middle grade novels out.

And I’m going to link those in the show notes. She did not. The statement, she just read it for me. Hi Nina.

Rebecca: I have a good friendship forgiveness story. In high school, I had a group of girlfriends who were all close somewhere between senior year ending and college starting things fell apart. And I left for college rooming with one friend, but basically not talking to the rest.

One who had been one of my closest was in the dorm room next door. And we still maintained our silent treat. Years passed Facebook happened, but I still never tried to reconnect then as happens when we get older, one of our mothers died and thank goodness for Facebook because someone [00:30:00] from the group reached out to tell me after much contemplating, I nervously traveled back to my hometown to attend the funeral.

I literally had no idea how

Nina: I would be greeted

Rebecca: by the group. Maybe it was the time that it passed 20. Maybe it was a tragic way. I came back into their lives. Maybe it was just that we were older and wiser. The fences were meed slights forgotten and friendships rekindled. We planned a girl’s trip that following year and have kept up over text sharing and joys, like major family events and sorrows.

Two more parents gone too soon. We share Peloton recommendations and remember whens, our relationships mostly exist via text, but we rally when someone needs the rest of us. No one can remember what happened to cause the rift, except that we were young

Nina: and stupid and had our priorities wrong.

Rebecca: But I’m grateful to have these

Nina: ladies from my youth.

Back in my life. So that’s just a really positive story of, you know, high school friends coming back together. I got a lot of other stories. I just couldn’t use them all. The reason I chose this one is it reminded me a little of our [00:31:00] story, where at a certain point, you, you stop even carrying why. Or what happened?

You just move forward and this person clearly is better off for having chosen forgiveness. And so are her friends are better off for having held onto the fact that she kind of left the group and you

Rebecca: don’t Nina. Can I just say something? I, yeah. Wanna thank you for sending that letter? I don’t think I’ve ever thanked you because you know, we’ve talked a lot about your fault, your role in ending the friendship and yeah, you made that decision, but thank you for sending the letter because I am pretty sure that I would never have reached out after, you know, kind of what had happened. So, you know, I think we both take responsibility for what happened in the friendship, but I also wanna thank you for, , taking the first step to kind of get back in touch.

Oh,

Nina: well thank you for saying that. It, it, oh, I love. I I’m sure. I wrote a hundred drafts knowing myself that had written one wasn’t just scrolled out. Right. It was I’ve copied over. Why did I not type it? It’s not like I didn’t have it. It wasn’t little Prairie times. I don’t know why I didn’t type it, but maybe I wanted it to be more heart heartfelt.

I knew you would know my handwriting [00:32:00] too. Yeah. It’s hard to forget. let’s hear from. Somebody who it did not work out. Hi Nina.

Rebecca: I have a classic mean girls adolescent, , story, a friendship, , in eighth grade, my super best friend, closer than a sister, , decided she didn’t wanna be friends and marched over to my house with her new best friend.

And the new best friend just told me off about some. Supposed lies. I had told, and basically the friendship was over and I was devastated. And about 20 years later, we were both living and working in downtown Chicago. And my ex bestie wanted to reconcile. So I did forgive her, but there was always just a little something that was off and later I did find.

She was laughing about some lies she had told during that time and I wasn’t amused. So we’re no longer

Nina: friends. So that was a [00:33:00] totally anonymous voicemail. The first one, somebody emailed it to me and asked if I could have someone else read it. This one just came through the voice line. Totally anonymous.

I don’t know who it is. It is also a very relatable story because it doesn’t always work out. And I thought we should talk about that for a minute where they tried to. Move on from what happened. But the second, there was just that little reminder of that old mean girl behavior. I mean, they were clearly adults by then.

Um, she was like, not for me and I ha that has happened to me before where I have reconciled with somebody. And then I saw the same pattern right away and I was like, I’m out. Yes, I could forgive the one time. But if you see it again, At a certain point, you kind of go, okay. Am I just asking for a bad friendship pattern that yes, I was willing to forgive it one time, but when I see it again, do you agree that that this person made the right choice by cutting ties?

I know it’s hard to know cause we don’t know the whole story. You know,

Rebecca: I think of forgiveness as not forgiveness is not one act it’s there’s many [00:34:00] stages to it and you don’t always have to enter the reconciliation stage. , the renewing, the friendship stage. , staying angry at someone has empirically negative effect on your health, on your physical health.

So depression and anxiety are correlated with holding onto a grudge. That’s like a known fact. I think that you can let go of anger. That’s kind of the first stage is letting go of the anger. And then I think kind of hashing it out and coming to a better place. And sometimes that can just be it right, Diana that’s enough.

And then sometimes. You have that cherry on the top of rekindling that friendship. But I think that’s probably more rare. I applaud these women for getting to the point where the anger maybe was gone, that really raw anger. And then they tried it and, and it didn’t work out. So, you know, I don’t think of it as right or wrong.

It’s just, that seems to be the best choice for her. It seems like staying in that friendship. Would not have been beneficial to her, to her spirit, you know, to her mental health. And so I’m glad that she and the friend were able to get to a point where , maybe there wasn’t so much anger, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that they [00:35:00] have to continue a friendship.

I also think what you had to begin with, plays into it a lot. You and I had a very strong foundation when we were basically adults. , we were becoming adults. So those 18 is 18 to 21 living together and being each other’s family, that was really powerful. So I think if you think about it like a bank account, we had built up a lot of capital in our friendship and we drew upon that basically till it got to zero.

But once we became friends again, It built right back up. And so, , when you’re friends with someone up to eighth grade, maybe it doesn’t quite have that. I also just think about friendships as like seasons sometimes, and sometimes it’s okay to have friends for different seasons. Um, and for that, for, and for that to end,

Nina: it can’t all last forever.

And the anger thing’s important. There’s a quote I wanna share before we close from Maggie Smith. Who wrote several books, , this one is from keep moving and it says, setting down your anger towards someone doesn’t mean excusing or forgiving them, it means protecting your. It means refusing to carry something that can poison you.

If you keep it close too long, try to let go today. Even just a [00:36:00] little keep moving. And like we’re saying it doesn’t necessarily mean reconciling. We are very lucky that we were able to both forgive each other proud of us.

Rebecca: Oprah ha has said, and maybe it’s a quote from somebody else. Maybe it’s my Angelo.

But when Oprah says it, it just really resonates. Oprah says, give. Not always for the other person, but

Nina: for yourself and any rabbi, , or Jewish educator for the holidays will tell you that too. And it’s such an important, I just wanna, you know, the nod to, , yum Kippur coming up. It’s exactly right.

Like you’re asking for somebody forgiveness. It. Isn’t always just for the other person. It, it really is. It is for you. So that is all for today. I wanna thank everybody for listening. Of course. Wanna especially thank Rebecca for being here and being so open and honest and being willing to tell her part of the story.

You can find all the show notes in a form to ask your own anonymous question in a link to my private. Facebook group, dear Nina on my website, Nina baden.com. If you have time to rate and review the podcast or even better tell a friend, I’d be so [00:37:00] grateful. Remember when our friendships are going well, we are happier all around.