[00:00:04] Nina: , Welcome to another episode of Dear Nina, conversations about friendship. Today we’re talking about how to support friends facing an ambiguous loss. , My guest, Emma Nadler, is a psychotherapist in Minneapolis and the author of the Memoir, the Unlikely Village of Eden. She is passionate about transforming her own experiences as a parent of a child with a rare genetic condition into empathy, compassion, and to helping others reimagine what it means to live a good life. Emma’s incredible memoir covers all of that and more. It’s about grief, healing, letting go of perfectionism, letting go of believing that parenting needs to be entirely about self-sacrifice. Our discussion today doesn’t require anyone to have read The Unlikely Village of Eden yet, though I highly recommend you do

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[00:00:50] Nina: . Just listen to what some major authors out there had to say about Emma’s book from Martha Beck, she says, the unlikely village of Eden is a wonderful read, lyrical, funny, heartbreaking, heart healing, and deeply inspiring with her writing and her life. Emma Nadler has created a testament to the resiliency of parents, children, friendships, marriage, and every other manifestation of human love.

. This one is from Adam Grant, emma Nadler has written a truly poignant read that shines a light on the humanity and neuro divergence, the heart of parenting, and the soul of psychotherapy.

And there were several more, but I think you’re just gonna have to take my word for it. And Adam Grants and Martha Becks and Rosanna Arquettes and Christie Tate that this is a must-read book. But for now, you at least get Emma live on Dear Nina.

. Hi, Emma.

[00:01:41] Emma: Hi, Nina. It’s great to be here with.

[00:01:44] Nina: I wanna tell listeners that once upon a time, you were in my Tuesday writing group in Minneapolis before we were at Modern, well, , I don’t know if I’ve seen you since then.

[00:01:53] Emma: I think about that writing group and what I think about most is that my attendance , was quite spotty because , I was really in the thick of a lot of , the hard times that I talk about in the memoir. , when I think about that class, I think about that particular time , in my life.

And the other thing, that I also wanted to say was, , I appreciate your intro. I felt like you really, read it, you get it. , and I really appreciate the way that you just laid that out for us.

[00:02:17] Nina: I’ve been talking about the book as I was reading it, I’ve been telling people, I’ve been telling my current writing classes. I’m like, look at this success story and, it is so well done because it is a hard thing and actually gets us right into my first question for you, cuz you are a psychotherapist and somebody who has experienced an ambiguous loss from both perspectives.

Can you help define that for listen?

[00:02:38] Emma: the term ambiguous loss is, coined by Dr. Pauline Boss, who is a researcher and educator out of the University of Minnesota, what the term means is it’s a loss that cannot be resolved. It’s a loss with some ambiguity. An example of that would be a missing person. It might be a catastrophic illness.

be a serious mental health issue. , a breakup or a divorce? It could be, some of the specifics matter, for example with a breakup or a divorce, how understood were the reasons? How much process did it get or understanding from the person who’s living with that loss, could be a brain injury.

There’s so many ways. ambiguous losses can play out and can be in our lives from more minor concerns to something much more major and life impacting. most of us have some kind of an ambiguous loss that we’ve known or, at least know someone who has one. , so that’s a term that I think is helpful to.

[00:03:41] Nina: I think it is too, cuz there’s that expression. You never know what somebody’s going through and this actually puts a slight more of a specific, while still vague because everybody’s situation is different. It puts more of a term to it because if you know that somebody lost. Someone in their family to cancer.

, let’s say we may not understand what they specifically are going through, but we can put a finger on that form of grief. They’ve lost a person. They’ve, watched a person suffer. You didn’t have, I mean, I’m sure you’ve had an experience like that in your life, but that’s not the experience in the book.

I’m going to read, , a quote from somewhere closer to the beginning of the book. It said, I thought having a child with a significant disability was something like they tell you at the doctor, a terrible loss, something you spend your whole life grieving over. As it turns out, it’s infinitely more complicated than that.

It depends on how you face it. It depends on how much you believe the dominant culture’s messages regarding which lives are considered most valuable. And most of all, it depends on who is with you along the way.

So can you tell us a bit more about as much of your story, it’s not gonna be the whole book, but just as it relates to, this episode about helping others. Are experiencing some, kind of ambiguous loss for context. What happened?

[00:04:58] Emma: What happened is, our daughter, , was born with a rare genetic deletion. She’s missing d n a we discovered this after she was having some feeding and sleeping challenges and, developmental delays.

And we discovered it, early on when . She was still a baby , and we got information from the medical team that we were working with, that it was really uncertain how her life would go, that we didn’t know if she would walk or talk or, what the different challenges would be that she might face medically.

But there were many that. deeply possible , and we wouldn’t know because there were so few people who have this, deletion. It doesn’t have a name. That’s how, rare it is. It, it might have a syndrome connected to it, but it doesn’t exactly have a name. That’s how rare it is.

And so , in a moment. everything changed for.

[00:05:56] Nina: That really comes through with the doctor’s visits in the book where the doctors are kind of speechless, they don’t really. Know what to tell you

, to hear news that maybe it could get worse or we just don’t know.

So that makes sense that there’s this term, ambiguous loss. So how were people able, and I know there’s no one right answer, I just want us to talk about it.

What were some things people were able to do? I was gonna read one quote You wrote, ,

people who could handle how demolished I sometimes felt and yet also access some levity were everything to me during the early years of Eden’s life. So let’s start in those early years.

[00:06:30] Emma: That’s a great quote to pick out. Nina , I really think that pretty much sums it up

That quote about holding the hard and let’s still make a good life. let’s still find joy. Let’s still laugh as much as we humanly can together. Let’s still dance in our living room and let’s cry sometimes cuz that’s part of being alive and that’s part of holding , this heavy thing.

And, to me, Finding people who were able to hold both and, be with me in, all those kinds of moments That was what was most helpful to me.

[00:07:04] Nina: I have to imagine you can’t handle, not just you, anyone in a situation where life is turned upside down. You can’t handle every person coming to you with a grave face. How are you? You know, that kind of thing.

[00:07:16] Emma: And. when I was in the hospital, well, when Eden was in the hospital, my daughter, , and I spent a lot of time in the hospital with her in the early years, I would try to make the nurses laugh because , I’m here and I’m alive and here we are and this is my life right now.

, and I cried plenty. , it was all there, and a lot of this process for me has been about reclaiming and declaring that I am still gonna have a good life , and I have to watch my daughter suffer. and that is really hard.

And I, wish I could take that away. I wish it could make it better for her. she struggles with a lot of. , , medical challenges, vomiting, she’s on a feeding tube. she has a lot of behavioral challenges that are really difficult and I still, wanna say we can still have a good life and fight for that.

And I wanna be around people who believe that too, and don’t pity us or think that we’re less than because we have this. , kind of wild thing we’re doing. and there are a lot of people out there who are, are willing to go along with that adventure and really be allies. and I also feel really lucky I’ve gotten to meet some of the best people, that I never thought I would get to meet.

and I think the one other thing I wanna say about it is like, I don’t think we know. Who we’re gonna meet, on any adventure. We don’t know who we’re gonna meet and the possibilities that they’re gonna bring into our lives. And I really have gotten to meet people who’ve blown my mind with their kindness and generosity.

[00:08:40] Nina: The book also reads in, in a really sweet way, like a love letter to this kind of collection of people you’re referring to. There are a lot of, colorful characters. I’d call them who, who help, who bring a smile to your face, who bring food, who, I mean, just everyone has their different things.

Flowers, grow a garden. , so many beautiful things. And I do think, , when you’re going through an ambiguous loss, it has to be helpful to find people in the same situation and, and. caring for your daughter with a rare genetic deletion. We’re not gonna find somebody exactly in that position.

But, you said in the book, I had my people, which I think refers to like your regular, friends, your pre , caregiving friends. But I still coveted connection with people who could understand this kind of life firsthand. It wasn’t easy to. I think this is so realistic. I’m, these are my words now, but now back to your words.

Most of the mothers I met who had children with any sort of disability were spectacularly overstretched, booked with therapeutic appointments and caregiving duties and possibly their own careers on top of it all with few free hours to congregate.

But those moments we. Worth continuing to try. How did you collect people that were in that situation? I hear from people all the time looking to connect and it, it could be for any reason. They moved, they are retired now, they’re 70 and they’re kind of looking around and they’re like, you know what, all these friends I’ve had for the past 30 years, I like ’em.

I’m not trying to get rid of them, but I’m ready for something else. I. Something a little bit like of a richer layer in this part of my life. In this period of your life, how did you do this? Because you’re just like these moms, you’re talking about therapeutic appointments, tons of things. No time your own career.

[00:10:24] Emma: this is a real work in progress and I never want to present, now we’re an after story. now we’ve arrived at knowing , or that I’ve arrived there in my sense of a community, I wanna continue to build on what I’ve created and I wanna continue to grow that because I think that.

being connected with people is, one of the most important parts of being alive. So, how I’ve done it so far is I’m really. Very unafraid to reach out to people. And that came over time. So I, I’m not saying I started that way, but what I would really say to others is dig deep and put it out there.

A lot of people want to connect and they want friends, deep friends, they want community, but they don’t want to be the one to take the first step. So if you’re willing to invite someone to the playground or to get a coffee from work to start building, it just takes a series of small steps of asking and to be willing to sometimes be rejected.

and I was, sometimes I write in the memoir like,, I reached out, To a person in my daughter’s special education class and She didn’t have the time for it. And that’s okay. That happens to all of us. I try not to take that very personally because she doesn’t even know me.

So it’s like, probably not about me, and I think most people , are flattered at the very least to be asked to do something and then if they don’t take us up on it, let’s just ask someone else. I’ve learned to not take things as personally, and I really want to be bold just in general.

and I’m not that afraid of being embarrassed, so that’s fine. , isn’t life embarrassing anyway? I mean, I just think it is. And so , let’s just go with that.

[00:12:07] Nina: Emma, , I’m so glad to have this whole quote from you because. I say this all the time, , Yes, yes, yes. to everything. You have to keep asking. I even tell it to my kids, but it’s true to adults too. People who make plans have plans. you just cannot wait. So yes, ask the next person, , and the thing that people really struggle to get, It’s my number one search topic that lands people on my site cuz that’s how many people are putting it into Google. And you may have heard me say that sometime on an episode, but I say it a lot cause it’s true and it’s some form of my friend never texts first , Everyone wants to be the one invited. But some people. Have to do the invite ,

I mean, if someone keeps saying no, that’s a different story. But I’m saying if they always say yes and you have a good time, but it takes you making the call, fine, just fine. You’re better at it. That’s what I tell people. Maybe most people are not good at it. They’re not.

[00:12:57] Emma: Yes. I think there’s so many reasons why people. Don’t want to take that risk because it is vulnerable and it is a risk to reach out , and some people aren’t as comfortable with that. I tend to think there’s sort of two types of people. There’s people who are willing to reach out and then there’s people who aren’t.

And so if you’re in a relationship with someone who doesn’t, I guess, does it really matter? , if you’re enjoying the time together, what does it matter? and I also agree with you, pay attention to their cues. Of course, , you don’t wanna relentlessly ask someone who’s not returning and not reciprocal with you.

You wanna find people who are reciprocal in what they want from the friendship because a lot of it is about fit and what do they want and what do you want, and is it similar? So if someone isn’t responding or. wanna connect with you? My guess is it maybe has to do with that. They might not have capacity for a friend.

this might not be the moment for them. yeah, I would really be looking for who has an opening.

Some people are closed, and that’s generally not about us. , so I would say for people going through an ambiguous loss, don’t assume people know what you need. you can ask for what you want and what you need, and I think that’s, The best way to statistically increase your chances of getting it. It doesn’t mean everyone’s gonna be able to meet that need or that want, but I think putting it out there really increases the chances that you would get the help.

That you would get the support. And then you learn who can be that person.

[00:14:19] Nina: And I would say also probably I’m guessing, accepting that different people can fulfill those different needs. your one best friend who you had. As a kid who knew you long before, may not be the person who can do certain things as , a newer friend, but I wouldn’t let go of people who aren’t able to fulfill at all.

I think that’s so important.

[00:14:38] Emma: Yeah, everybody brings something different and that’s what makes life interesting. We don’t need the same friend 10 times. Right? Everybody can bring something different to, the relationships.

[00:14:49] Nina: also in your work, when you’re helping other people get through their losses, , what are some things that people can ask for?

Let’s think about, would it be appropriate to say, I could really. Lunch once a week. I mean, does it get that specific, I think to say to somebody, I just really need a friend right now. , what is that? , I wonder if it helps to really actually be more specific than that.

[00:15:12] Emma: Well, I think being specific is great on the side of the receiver and the giver, I think for people who are supporting those going through an ambiguous loss, the thing that I would not recommend and those who know me, I don’t like to give advice, but I am gonna give this to say, let me know if you need something.

Let me know if you need something. Is not an invitation that a person who is going through. and ambiguous loss will probably be able to take you up on, because that’s really general. And I think for the average person, what does that mean and do you really mean it? For a person who wants to be a supporter, , there’s a few ways to do that.

One is really thinking about the person who is going through this. What are their values, what are their needs? , if you’re close enough to them, have a conversation, like, I’d love to support you. Here’s what I’m thinking. What would that be like for you? What would you want more? What do you really need right now?

what doesn’t help you? , please let me know. so if you’re close enough with them and it’s not super acute, then. , you can have that conversation if you’re not close with them or you don’t feel that you could , for lots of reasons, have that conversation. Then I would say offering a few options.

One example of this is if you’re going to the grocery store and you say, Hey, I’m going to the grocery store later, please let me know what you need, otherwise I will pick up a few things for you for dinner.

So you’re giving them a choice and you’re giving them some say, but you’re also being pretty specific in what you can do. , or it might be. , offering something like, Hey, would it be helpful if I sent dinner or could I come over sometime this weekend? So you’re giving them two options of what might be better for them so that they could tell you and give you feedback about that.

I think in terms of the person going through the loss, yeah, it’s really hard to ask for help from most people and I think That’s a part of the challenge, and I don’t know if there’s any way to get through that, except for to ask. and to start by asking people that you know and trust and see how that goes.

So start with something small. Start with someone you trust. Try to build that skill and that muscle to ask and then I think most people discover, oh, people wanna help and they don’t know how. So then I can give them guidance. And I would say on both roles, being as specific as possible is great.

[00:17:44] Nina: And that’s such great advice, practical, actionable advice. I know you say you don’t like to give advice, but I mean, what’s the point of having a friend who’s a psychotherapist if you’re never getting any advice? I guess they would feel like you’re always working, right? You have to turn it off.

You know, it’s funny, I have a couple of friends who are dermatologists and it takes everything , in me not to be like, look at this freckle. , but I know not to do that.

[00:18:03] Emma: Right. Well, I think the funny thing about therapy is , yes, , we can pass along ideas, but we’re really not technically supposed to give advice. We are never supposed to say , you should do this or you should do that. Especially when it has to do with any decision , over their life.

So in a way it’s sort of an indulgence when I’m not working to sometimes give advice, to a friend, yeah, my friend who’s a therapist. I’m like, give me advice. Tell me what to do. And in a way it feels like liberating that we can, because we’re not, , in the therapeutic client relationship, we’re just two therapists who maybe can do that for each.

[00:18:35] Nina: Something that comes up in your book, and this will be our last topic, is that some friendships rise to the occasion. , you wrote. Sometimes we grow with our villages and sometimes we must adjust the boundaries as we grow or they adjust for us despite our best plans and some. Now these are my words, , friendships don’t weather the storm I have to read one more, small piece of your book. . I’m gonna make a little Instagram quote out of this because it is perfection. You wrote , in friendships, I have been left and I’ve also been the one who leaves.

I have been a stellar friend, and I have been unavailable and preoccupied. I have drifted apart from friends found distance where there used to be connection moved or graduated and lost touch or ended things to abruptly. There are many people I have called friends who I no longer know anymore for reasons we sometimes understand and sometimes do not.

We cannot maintain all connections to all people throughout time. , So Emma, I love that quote so much I wonder if this comes up with clients too, this realization that some friendships aren’t going to make it. What are some signs of that when clients are talking to you, do you recognize right away when they start talking about a certain friend isn’t calling back, isn’t showing up , here’s what I struggle with.

I know it’s many questions in one, I do think it’s very hard to know how to show up for somebody facing any kinda loss, ambiguous or otherwise. do you ever have clients give people a little bit more time or more benefit of the doubt, or do you direct them to tell the friend what they need before we decide that this friendship isn’t going to be the one that makes.

[00:20:10] Emma: Friendship is really imperfect, just like any relationship, and I think that’s the lens that I always wanna hold with friendship and thank you For your comment on that quote. actually, added that piece. That was like one of the last things I did on the book because, I had talked about a relationship that didn’t make it.

that was so important to me to include because I didn’t wanna paint this rosy. Wow. Everyone rallied for me, story. because that’s not relatable and that’s not real. , there were many people who rallied for me and for my family, and there were people who had their own stuff come up and it felt like too much.

there were people who felt like, wow, this is really intense and I don’t really know how to talk about this or be around this. , all of it was there , and so I really wanted to make sure to portray. Friendship and relationships with that lens that, overall, I think I’ve been really fortunate to have a, great crew.

but , , there’s struggle there too. And When I work with clients, I’m really curious about what do they want, what are their values, what is important to them, and I’m really always working with people to reflect their own desires and vision for their life, not what I think personally.

Would be a good step for them, because it’s their life, and everybody gets to have this life that’s really about, their own vision and possibilities. And so that’s, really where I work from as , in my therapy practice. .

[00:21:40] Nina: you did a really healthy , thing. In the one friendship you talk about in the book, when you kind of realize , she’s not gonna be there for you in the way that you had hoped. what I think you did really nicely in your thought process about that friendship. That doesn’t always come through in letters.

I get from people about friendships that are clearly on the brink and aren’t gonna make it. and I know it took a while, it wasn’t like, the next day you realized something and, were completely fine with it. You still struggle with it. I’m sure. , there wasn’t one specific end. It was more of like a drift in your case and. It seems like you got to a place of exactly that quote I read, just sort of realizing there’s been times that you probably weren’t there in the way people might have needed. There’s been times you left too abruptly, like it is true that most of us have been on both sides of that and for various reasons.

[00:22:26] Emma: Absolutely. I think if you’re looking for a perfect friend, keep looking. I mean, , we make mistakes and we all do. And, we fall short or we, have to make repairs we’re all really imperfect. And, I especially wanted to bring that to that friendship conversation.

not as a judging of that friend in any way as actually an honoring that in this case, we had two decades together. beautiful, right? it’s beautiful to have deep relationships that endure and sometimes they can’t last forever. and what if we work on accepting that versus vilifying people or making it sort of.

I’m right and you’re wrong. Or you’re wrong and I’m right. But what if we just work on understanding that? I’m acutely aware of my humanity and friendships and I think we all should, , try to be because it’s complex.

[00:23:17] Nina: that’s right. and I’ve been writing about friendship since 2014 and I haven’t run out of material yet because , it is so complex. , before we say goodbye, is there anything else about ambiguous loss that I didn’t ask about that you wanted to talk about that could help listeners on either end of it as the friend or the person going through it?

[00:23:36] Emma: I would like to say that as a friend, I think what people , could really think about is. That it’s not its friend’s job to ever solve or fix the problem that with an ambiguous loss, that means there may be no easy, immediate solution to that problem.

so I would encourage a friend To really notice if they do have an impulse to try to give advice or fix or say, do this or did you do this? I mean, everyone’s well intentioned, What I would encourage instead is be with them. Just know that you can’t take it away, and that’s okay. And they’re not looking for you to solve this. They’re looking for your empathy, for your understanding, for you to say, yeah, this is hard, and let that be hard and it’s not anyone else’s job to be able to fix it.

And in fact, by accepting that we cannot fix this, perhaps there’s some liber.

[00:24:31] Nina: that’s beautiful. that’s a great place to end if you’re comfortable with that.

[00:24:34] Emma: Yeah.

[00:24:35] Nina: , . Emma, thank you so much for being here. I really can’t wait for more people to read the book so I can discuss it with them.

you have just been a delight to have on the show. And thank you. Thank you for writing it. It will help people. It helped me think. People in my life that I would like to step up for more and gave me ways to think about how to do it. Not in a prescriptive way, because it’s a memoir, it’s not a how-to, it’s a real story, , but you can intuit the how-to as a reader

Thank you for that.

[00:25:02] Emma: Nina, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed our conversation. I love talking about friendship, and it was really great to talk with you, and I really appreciate your support.

[00:25:13] Nina: I will see you around Emma. Hopefully you won’t have to wait another 10 years. Well, it’s probably been seven years or something, and listeners come back for your next episode. As I say, every time when our friendships are going well, we are happier all around. Thanks.

You know how when you listen to a podcast, the host always asks you to rate it, to review it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you listen.

Apple seems to matter the most. I guess it makes a difference when someone goes to the search bar, if they put in friendship and they wanna hear things about friendship. If. A podcast has a lot of reviews and stars, then that is what gets shown. I am on my way with some great ratings and reviews, but of course I could always use more.

So if you have enjoyed this episode or any other episode, I would so appreciate if you would take the time to do that. One other really helpful thing, if you like the show, is to just share it with a friend. Send them a text, send them an email. Say, I’m enjoying this podcast about friendship. I think you would too.

Makes a huge difference. The third thing I’d say is share it on social media, because that helps me reach people I would never reach on my own. Thank you for considering all of that. I appreciate your time and I hope I’ll see you again next week. Bye.