Nina: 0:07

Welcome to another episode of Dear Nina Conversations About Friendship. Today’s episode is a special treat because I get to ask a question that has come up consistently in the nine years I’ve been writing about friendship Is texting ruining the art of friendship communication? And I get to consider the answer to that question with the one and only Jo Piazza, an award-winning journalist, best-selling author and podcast creator. I was particularly obsessed with Jo’s podcast Under the Influence about the world of becoming a social media influencer. Joe’s really funny. Under the Influence isn’t meant to be taken as if she’s actually trying to become an influencer. It really is an interesting journalistic deep dive into the world of what it is to be a social media influencer. And that’s just one of her many projects.

Nina: 0:58

Jo’s had several podcasts since then. She Wants More. The newest one, coming out soon, is called Wilder. It’s for I Heart Radio, co-hosted with her best friend writer Glennyis McNichol. It’s described as a reckoning with the legacy of Laura Ingalls Wilder, and her latest novel, co-authored with Christine Pride, titled You Were Always Mine, was recently released and I cannot wait to read it. We will talk a little bit, too, at the end of the episode about what it’s like to do these major projects, podcasts, bestselling novels with friends. I also love reading Jo’s Substack newsletter, where she always has relatable thoughts on pop culture, marriage, parenting, friendship. Her recent Substack post, titled I Don’t Want to Text Anymore, can I call you, caught my attention, but I will let Jo tell you more about it after I have a chance to let her say anything. Hi, Jo, welcome to Dear Nina. Conversations About Friendship. I see that you have your nails done. We were just about to talk about it and I said let’s save it for the podcast to match your book cover for the newest book.

Jo: 2:02

I do, i do. Yeah, i ran to the nail salon with my one hour I had off to match my nails to the cover of You Were Always Mine, which is my novel, because I’m like you know what TikTok really seems to like nails that match things and I really wish that my book would go viral on the TikTok. So I just the things we do, the desperate, vaguely sad things we do to sell books these days.

Nina: 2:25

So I just joined TikTok. Why’d you do it? So I joined TikTok because everyone said I had to join TikTok for my podcast. but I have teenagers, joe, i have four kids, three of them are teenagers.

Jo: 2:35

I know It’s too many kids And I can say that because I just had my third kid and I’m like this is too many kids.

Nina: 2:40

I know I love when you talk about your kids. So I just stopped driving a minivan a couple of years ago because when you have four kids unless you want to drive a suburban which I don’t okay, it’s annoying to park A regular SUV. People don’t quite understand. They’re like, oh, but you know what they’ll name. Any number of cars has a third row. But yes, that does. You don’t have a trunk if you’re using the third row, so I don’t want to drive a big giant suburban. So fine, i had a minivan, very uncool, but it got the job done. I would sometimes, in the rear of the mirror, see all those kids back there. I’m like where are these kids coming from? And they’re mine.

Jo: 3:12

Where’d you come from? Why are you here now Like how did this happen?

Nina: 3:15

But to TikTok. okay, So three of my four kids are teenagers. They don’t know I’m on there. My name on there is Dear Nina podcast. I did not use our last name out of kindness to them. But I’ve discovered with TikTok that it serves up stuff to you whether you follow people or not.

Jo: 3:29

Yeah, I still don’t get it. I mean, I’m still lost.

Nina: 3:31

And they’re going to be like oh my God, mom, you are so embarrassing which I am. I mean I which you are.

Jo: 3:36

Yeah, no, of course they are. And you know what, like I was, i was thinking about this today. I was writing an essay and every parent since the beginning of time messed up their kids. Now we just have a weird digital social media ways to mess them up, and if that’s the only thing we’re doing to make them at all interesting on first dates in their twenties, i’m okay with it.

Nina: 3:57

That’s true. I mean, our parents gave us fodder, and it’s the only thing.

Jo: 4:01

So much like 80s fodder 80s, parenting was messed up.

Nina: 4:05

Well, speaking of my mom, she actually was one of my earliest guests on a topic. It’s not the same as this topic, but it’s a concentric circle. I do consider my mom very wise, she has lots of successful friendships And I quote her a lot just to get a different point of view, a point of view from someone who’s not so media dependent, and this was an anonymous question from somebody who was very sick of a friend who will only text, i think, the title of it was My.

Nina: 4:30

Friend Will Only Text. And this person was saying I will call my friend and then she will text back, And then another time this person will try to call again, call another time and the friend will only ever text back. It’s like this friend will not pick up the phone. But, Jo, I will tell you. I also hear from the other point of view, which is something along the lines of my friend calls me all the time.

Jo: 4:48

It’s so hard, I have to say, because I text back a lot, because mostly if I’m like in a meeting or something right, I can’t answer the phone. But I also hate texting. I’ve been so much better. I’ve been trying to push past that feeling you get when the phone rings, like as if something terrible has happened and if you answer it the world will end. I just feel like you’re going to like talking to your friend for five minutes, answer the phone. What I don’t like that a lot of people like are audio texts like voice memos. Oh no.

Nina: 5:18

All my friends laugh when they hear this. I leave so many of these, i won’t listen to it. If you ever leave me one, i’m never going to listen to it.

Jo: 5:24

That’s the problem.

Nina: 5:25

Yeah, i could see how that happens. Then they just sit there and now, like you’ve said something.

Jo: 5:29

But like and then I’m not going to respond One of my friends who’s like a good friend and we work together for work things too, because she’s an agent a book agent I work with, but she only sends audio text. If she listens to this, she knows it’s her and I’ve told her I love her anyway, but I never listen. I don’t have AirPods because one of my kids ate them I’m not going to say which one, Oh my God, But it was the middle one And so I just have regular headphones and I’m not in or I’m working or running around and I don’t want to be that person listening to an audio message and making everyone listen to it.

Nina: 6:00

Yeah, you can’t do that. All right, Jo, we got a little ahead of ourselves. I really want you to describe your sub-sac piece that was titled. I Don’t Want to Text Anymore. Can I Call You Because it really got me excited and that is why I mean there’s a million reasons why I want to have you on. But I wanted to specifically talk about that and just to tell us a little bit about how you came to this agreement with your friend, like what led you to come to this agreement that we were going to experiment with phone calls.

Jo: 6:26

I feel like more and more of our lives have moved to text, such that their entire novels being written between friends on text messages, especially in your group text too. And like I’m never going to be able to catch up on any of these group texts, i’m missing huge swaths of my friends’ lives. And I went to go pick up my phone the other day to text goodness MacNickel, who’s my best friend and also my work colleague, and I was about to send her a really long text. I’m like I don’t want to type at you, i just don’t. I want to hear your voice. I want to hear it right now.

Jo: 6:57

And goodness always answers the phone. When she doesn’t answer, i’m worried she’s dead. I told her why I didn’t want to text and she said the same thing. And I’m like let’s not text each other anymore, let’s just try to only call each other. And I’ll tell you it only lasted four days because we have so much that we have to talk about it. And he given moment that there’s no way we could just stay on the phone for 24 hours a day. I just feel better every time I pick up the phone is the thing I think. I describe it in the piece. It’s like jury duty or sex with your husband. You’re like I don’t want to do this, like this is just going to be exhausting. And then you go to jury duty and you’re like that was a really interesting case And I’m so glad that I’m a part of the legal process now. And I think it’s the same thing with picking up the phone and not texting your friend and calling them instead.

Nina: 7:40

That’s so funny. I’m laughing over here. You wrote I miss hearing my friend’s voices, I miss tone and contacts and actual laughter. that isn’t a cartoon of someone laughing. What if one day we forget what actual laughter sounds like because we only read fake?

Jo: 7:53

laughter. I believe that that’s going to be the case. I actually I’m not an emoji person. I know a lot of people are. One of my friends is like a big time boss at a tech company. She had to figure out emojis because her younger staff put them in chats And when they’re doing live streams and stuff, it’s the only way they’ll communicate. I don’t like them. I want to actually hear someone’s laughter or see someone smile, and they feel so fake and so surface to me.

Jo: 8:21

When I was writing that article, i was remembering what it was like to be on the phone with your friends in like junior high. Remember you would talk for hours. What did we even talk about? I can’t imagine talking for that long, but I think it’s what cemented our friendships. It’s why you may never be closer to anyone than you are when you’re 12 or 13 years old, and I don’t think kids are doing it anymore. You have teenagers, so you have to tell me And I think they’re losing something because they’re constantly texting. And I think we’ve lost something because we’re constantly texting.

Nina: 8:53

I’ll tell you what they do, which is actually nice in some ways, and it’ll give you a little hope. They FaceTime nonstop, nonstop.

Jo: 9:01

Oh, okay, yeah.

Nina: 9:02

I know that’s the happy side is there’s a lot of FaceTiming. There’s FaceTiming with several people at once. You know sometimes like those three, four people on there And just a lot of FaceTime, but they’ll never really answer a phone. They FaceTime me, like, so sometimes I’ll FaceTime yeah, i’m like guys, i’m out.

Jo: 9:17

I don’t want to FaceTime Yeah.

Nina: 9:19

Yes, they will not make a normal phone call. However, they do spend a lot of time on Snapchat. Snapchat’s the thing. I mean TikTok too, but really Snapchat. They don’t text on the I-messages. All the texting happens within Snapchat. By the time yours are actually teenagers I’m sure they’ll be, you know 15 other they’ll probably have a phone like sewn into their hand and it’ll be like something completely awful.

Jo: 9:40

So it’ll be a chip in their brain. Is what?

Nina: 9:42

it’s going to be Right. You said something else that I wanted to. I love to quote back at people, Isn’t?

Jo: 9:46

it nice to hear your own words Like it’s like that scene in when Harry Metzeli with Harry Fisher and Bruno Kirby, And he’s like no one’s ever quoted me back to me, And then they fall in love and get married. So yes, See.

Nina: 9:57

I’m going to make you be my friend. You said the other problem with texting is that I pick up my phone to text and then open three other useless apps and mindlessly scroll through them and lose at least 15 minutes of my life. That is absolutely the case. I mean, there’s just no way you can be in contact with your phone In any way without looking at the other things.

Jo: 10:16

Yeah, Doing all of the other things. All of the other things are also useless And they’re what break my brain to just bumming between three or four apps for no real purpose or reason whatsoever is why, like I think that I feel burnt out at the end of the day, right Because my brain was just trying to track these things instead of doing actual work or having actual human conversations. And my friends that I talked to on the phone or that I collide with in person we’re definitely closer than my text friends, and there’s friends, even in the past two years, that I’ve lost. I think that we’ve lost a sense of intimacy because we don’t talk.

Nina: 10:52

I think that’s true. It’s uncomfortable to say And it’s true. It is true It there’s an intimacy that gets created And, by the way, when you talk to someone more often, it doesn’t have to be a 20 minute conversation.

Jo: 11:03

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. That is what I would like to really normalize. It’s that because I usually don’t have time for a 20 minute conversation, so I’m going to call you but we’re just going to talk for five minutes And then the outro is just is going to be like I got to go Love you, bye. I think that’s a good catch up. There’s a lot you can get done in five minutes, and it’s the same way. I had another sub stack post that kind of went bananas about in praise of the low key hang.

Jo: 11:28

Yes, I thought we don’t have to go get dinner together. It just why don’t you sit on my couch while I clean out my silverware drawer or whatever? Let’s walk to the office together. I want to steal those little moments because I know I don’t have time. Nor do I really want to go to a restaurant for dinner And this is a restaurant I really want to go to because it’s loud, i can’t hear anything And I just want to, like, sit on my couch with a friend or walk with a friend. I think that went so gonzo because it really resonated with people, because they’re like yeah, we all have these moments, but we think that connecting has to be so lofty in a way, and it could be so much easier than we think it has to be.

Nina: 12:03

Joe, we’re so on the same page. I just had Gretchen Rubin on the show and she just had a book out about the five senses. I spent like half that episode and she agreed with me talking about restaurants and how impossible they are and so loud. And if you’re really there with more than one person, forget it. And if you’re there with a group, really forget it, Forget it. And the low key hang thing I actually I had someone else on and we didn’t use that expression. It was a long time ago. I love that expression. That episode was really more about money and friendship, but it’s the same conclusion, which is that not everything has to be a big, long, expensive outing.

Jo: 12:35

Yeah, exactly, it’s the low key, low key hang.

Nina: 12:39

So we’re talking about the issues with texting. There’s one other one I want to bring up, but then we have to talk about the other side of a little bit. You quoted psychotherapist Maggie Mulqueen who wrote something for NBC News. Well, she was referring to the way like you said it earlier like people text each other novels. That could be more in a positive way. That’s still too long, but it’s happy stuff. They’re catching up, it’s funny. It also could happen in the negative, where you’re getting into some kind of argument And she wrote with texts you don’t risk interruption or need to take a breath. But what may serve one person as a chance to clear the air often ends up overwhelming the recipient.

Jo: 13:13

Totally, because I think texts can also land in your inbox anytime, right, and so you could be in the middle of a terrible work meeting. You get this text and it’s going to land completely different than how they meant it And there’s no tone in text. Or when you don’t respond to a text, maybe because you just didn’t see it or forgot it, and then a person feels totally slighted and then this grudge starts to fester for you The other person has no idea about. I think it’s created more problems in friendships than it’s solved.

Nina: 13:45

That’s added a lot of workflow to our friendships. There’s a lot right, that’s like the only word I can use Like okay, i had to respond to this thing. I had to respond to this thing with enough enthusiasm. I’ve definitely With enough enthusiasm yes, I’ve been guilty of that, of being like, oh, she didn’t seem that excited about that picture, or she-.

Jo: 14:03

Right, exactly Exactly. Why did it take her so long to respond? It just especially women, i think. We play mind games with ourselves all the time And this is just giving us more fodder for that, more fodder that we don’t need.

Nina: 14:15

On the other side. I’m just curious what you think about this. When you call someone not your best best friend, but other friends do you ever text first and say I’d love to have a phone call, or do you just call And I’ll tell you what I do after?

Jo: 14:27

Oh, with my like not as close friends. I warn them Because no one likes an impromptu. I do a lot of my calling when I’m walking or in the car And I’m in Philly and we don’t we have like a stupid speaking of like mini vans. We have the mini van of electric cargo bikes So we use that in our car most of the time. So like sometimes what I’m doing, that I’ll like think randomly of a person I want to touch base with and then I’ll call and surprise them. But a lot of people don’t like that So I will text to be like hey, i’m free And in an hour I would love to catch up. Could I call you? And that feels less intrusive to people.

Nina: 15:02

I think I do a combo. I saw something recently, I mean just like on Facebook or something, because I’m old and I still use Facebook. Do you? I don’t? Yes, I do. I’m older than you, Joe, I’m 46. You don’t have to say how old you are.

Jo: 15:15

I’m 42. That’s like not older than me. I mean, I feel like anyone within a 10 year span is the same age. Although I was talking to a 30 or 30 and I’m, like you know, like we’re the same age and she’s like we’re not.

Nina: 15:24

Right, but yes, i still use Facebook. There was some sort of conversation happening on there. Not that I started, i was just noting that somebody was really put out about the idea being called without a warning, and I probably would warn someone who I really want to have a longer conversation with. If it’s like we really need to catch up about something long, then yes, let’s try to find a time that works, but with a good chunk of people, not even just my closest closest friends, but other people too. I still old school. Just call it. I figure they don’t have to answer And that’s my answer And that’s the other thing.

Jo: 15:56

I don’t think you can feel bad if someone doesn’t answer No.

Nina: 15:59

I don’t answer I don’t answer a lot. Right, so you just don’t answer, and that’s what voicemail is for. Although I will say there isn’t just a listen to voicemail, i do use voice memos, probably more than I should. I would never really bother leaving a voicemail. My husband leaves me voicemails all the time and then is annoyed that I didn’t listen to them. I’m just like no one’s doing voicemail anymore.

Jo: 16:18

No, i don’t. I mean, i see the transcription of a voicemail And in fact, if you ever get my voicemail, you’ll hear it says I’m not going to listen to this, so you should probably text me. That’s funny.

Nina: 16:27

Yes, that’s fair. And then also, on the other side, when you were talking about doing this experiment, you said something about your producer, emily. How old is she? She’s a baby, she’s 27. Ok, so, yeah, what was her reaction? She?

Jo: 16:40

never, ever wants to speak on the phone ever, and I call her constantly because the things that we have to do for podcasts are really intricate, nuanced And I think you have to talk about them. So I’m constantly calling her And she’s like is everyone OK? Did someone die? And I’m like no, i just need to explain this to you.

Nina: 16:57

I wonder when my teens will stop doing the FaceTime. They’ll be sad if you think about it. At what point.

Jo: 17:02

See, i hate the FaceTime. I feel sad. Oh, i hate it. I hate it. But yeah, our kid’s babysitter is in her mid-20s. She’s 27 now. She’s a full-blown grown-up. She’s on FaceTime all day long, but like he puts it down right, so it’s not like she’s staring into the phone, it’s just like there and on and then you can pick it up if you want to. And I’m on FaceTime, i’m like here, it’s perfectly centered in my face and you can see me. But they don’t care, they’re just walking. The person is just like traveling with them.

Nina: 17:28

So I’m like why is the video on?

Jo: 17:29

This is so dumb.

Nina: 17:31

It must use so much battery and stuff. That’s what I always think.

Jo: 17:34

You can just use so much battery and bandwidth and I mean, somehow it’s probably bad for the earth, i don’t know.

Nina: 17:39

Before I have a totally separate question not related to this topic is there anything else you want to say about phone calls, voicemail, anything to urge my listeners to consider?

Jo: 17:49

I said this, but I can’t emphasize it enough. It makes me happier, it makes my day better. Even just to have that five minute call with one of my friends. It changes the whole tenor of everything, because I think everything feels so surface and superficial when we’re just on text or on email, and it is one of those things that just actually improves my life.

Nina: 18:12

And I would add that it’s like a muscle you need to. It’s totally a muscle. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. If you stop, then every time you talk to a friend, when it’s just on occasion, it is going to seem like this marathon discussion. But if you could talk a little more often, it just isn’t like that. You can get back to sort of it’s nostalgic.

Jo: 18:30

Let’s have a use to communicate, and I do think it was better than we’d have a whole episode about mental health. But I think so much anxiety and depression comes because we’re so siloed and away from the people that we love and that we should be spending more time with.

Nina: 18:46

That’s absolutely right. I could not agree more. Final, final thing What is it like working with your best friend? You’ve done so many interesting projects together. I know she produced under the influence or co-produced. Did you produce it too? I mean, you kind of probably produced it.

Jo: 18:59

We kind of co-produced it. I mean it’s great and it sucks. It’s both. I am a big fan of collaborating and I co-write books with people who, like Christine who I wrote you were always mine with is my former editor and also a good friend. It gets hard when you have to tell your friends hard truths about work things. I’m like really cracking the whip. I’m glinting right now. These episodes have to get done. I’m out in three weeks. We’re done. I have to go to Italy to work on this new podcast and finish up my novel, my next novel, and I’m like this has to end. And that’s hard with a friend because you don’t want to introduce tough conversations into your friendships. That makes it tricky. but I think it’s also so much more rewarding to get to create something like this Wilder podcast about Laura Ingalls Wilder with someone that you love.

Nina: 19:49

You know I live in Minnesota. People are going to be so excited about this. Oh sure Can you tell everyone in Minnesota about this? Yes, of course I’m going to This summer.

Jo: 19:56

we were in Walnut Grove and we spent some time in Minneapolis and we were in Mankato.

Nina: 20:00

When I saw that this podcast was coming, i was very excited, and I knew that so many people here will be excited about it. So tell me again when that comes out, the first episode of Wilder drops tomorrow.

Jo: 20:09

I’m really sad that we’re not coming to Minneapolis or St Paul for this. You were always mine Book tour. My husband’s family is from Milwaukee, so we’re going there, okay. Okay, that makes sense. Like I said, i have another novel coming out in April and I’ll be in Minneapolis, st Paul, for that one for sure.

Nina: 20:23

Oh good, Well, I’ll come find you, whatever. Nothing’s that far here. Joe, thank you so so much for being here. I know you are so busy. You have the new book, the new podcast, so much going on, so much to promote and so many people who want to talk to you, And so the fact that you gave me some time. Really, I already adored you and was a big fan. I’m an even bigger fan now.

Nina: 20:41

And listeners come back next week. When our friendships are going well, we are happier all around. And if you have a chance to get on Apple or Spotify and give to your Nina five stars never less than five if you’re feeling the less than five vibe, skip the reviewing process all together. And the most helpful thing you could do to spread the word is to share an episode with a friend, although I do see how sometimes that could seem like a passive, aggressive thing to do, like hey, friend, listen to this episode about phone calls, because I actually want to talk to you and I don’t want you to only text me. So I guess if it’s an actual issue you’re having with a friend, i wouldn’t share that particular episode with them. That’s just a little friendship advice right there on how to share the episode about friendship. How do you like that? Thank you, thank you. I’m always grateful for all the conversation we’re having online, offline. Love hearing from everybody. See you next week.