Nina: 0:00Hi, welcome to another episode of Dear Nina Conversations About Friendship. I am sharing a conversation I had with Dr Marissa G Franco, author of Platonic How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make and Keep Friends. It was such a good juicy topic about conflict and why it is okay to express anger at our friends. I don’t mean to express it in an angry manner per se, but to express it you’re upset about something, you’re disappointed about something. I think a lot of us avoid conflict because we fear we will lose the friendship. But a really special, close friendship should be able to handle an expression of any kind of upset. Of course you can’t do it all the time and Dr Franco and I discuss times you might skip it and also how to deal with being on the receiving end of information like that from a friend. The reason I am resharing this conversation is because I chose Platonic as the summer book club choice for the Dear Nina book club.
Nina: 1:00Let me tell you for a quick moment about the Dear Nina book club. It is virtual, it’s on Zoom, although as interest grows we will have some in-person options, but for right now it’s seasonal and it is on Zoom and everybody is welcome and I always choose a book that is about friendship. This one is about friendship in the most literal way. It is a book about friendship. It is not always like that. You can see the other selections that I have done and you can also sign up for the summer book club, which is going to be on July 24th, 7 pm central. I do my things in central time because I live in Minnesota, although, like I said, everyone is welcome. So you can find all that information, the sign up for that, the books we’ve done in the past on neenabadzencom slash book club My last name is B-A-D-Z-I-N. Neenabadzencom slash book club.
Nina: 1:55Onto the episode. Welcome to another episode of Dear Neena Conversations About Friendship. I love talking about what works and doesn’t work in friendship and helping myself become a better friend through these conversations Today, the listeners and I are getting expert help on a really hard topic Why expressing anger can strengthen a friendship. In this lesson in handling conflicts in our friendships, both expressing anger and receiving it is thanks to Dr Marissa G Franco. Dr Franco is a psychologist and a national speaker known for digesting and communicating science in ways that resonate deeply enough with people to change their lives. She works as a professor at the University of Maryland, and her book Platonic How the Science of Attachment Can Help, make and Keep Friends, is out now. Hi Marissa.
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 2:49Hi Neena, Thanks so much for having me.
Nina: 2:51I want you to know that every couple of weeks I do a friendship roundup of articles. I’ve seen around and people send me stuff. I see stuff. I truly am an enthusiast. I digest it all. If there’s a friendship book that’s been published, i’ve read it. I loved your book. I have to tell you that almost every article I get I’d say nine out of 10, you’re quoted as one of the experts. I feel like I have a celebrity. I’m such a nerd and I really take in so much friendship stuff and I was so excited when you had a whole book I could read. I would love to hear a little bit more from you before we really get into the conflict piece, which was one of my favorite chapters about attachment theory, because that’s part of the title. I want to read the title one more time Platonic How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make and Keep Friends. What is attachment theory? How does it relate to friendship?
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 3:38Yeah, that’s a great question. First of all, thank you so much. I’m honored to hear that you’ve been following some articles that I’ve been cited in. So, attachment theory typically it’s applied to romance, but our attachment style is really our internal template for how other people are responding to us and seeing us, which thus affects how we then behave in our relationships. And so, because most of what goes on in our friendships, our relationships, is ambiguous, we don’t actually know if someone meant to harm us, as being malicious, as being nice, hasn’t texted us back because they hate us or because they’re busy, right? Our attachment style tends to be the deciding factor in how we determine what’s going on in our relationships. And so, really, there’s these three ways actually four, but the fourth one there’s less reachers on that we might interpret our relationships relate to our relationships Anxiously, attach people.
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 4:31They always think people are abandoning them. So if you don’t text them back, they’ll think you hate them rather than you’re busy. If you bring up an issue with them, they might think you’re ending the friendship rather than you’re trying to solve an issue and reconcile with them. If you haven’t talked to them in a while, they might assume the friendship is over rather than that. It’s just been sleeping for a little bit. Avoidantly attach people. They tend to think other people are untrustworthy and really value their independence. They’re often not very vulnerable. They lose friends easily. They don’t really try to make friends. They see relationships for their liabilities, their responsibilities, instead of for their benefits, so they just keep other people at a distance. Secure people. They’re comfortable giving and receiving love and getting close to people and they tend to relate to ambiguity with optimism. Right. They assume people like them. If they haven’t heard back from someone, they assume we’re still friends. You know, they just haven’t had the chance to get back to me.
Nina: 5:27I really liked your point in the book and to review for everyone that was anxious, avoidant and secure. There’s three different ways to approach relationships, in this case friendships. I liked your point in the book that sometimes we’re in one stage or another or even within the same time period, maybe with certain people you come at it from a more secure place, with certain people maybe more from an anxious place and that might have more not necessarily person to person. I was thinking more like different parts of your life, depending on what’s going on in your life right. Like, if I read that correctly, like I can tell you so I have four kids. I always joked that for the first year of each kid’s life I kind of went into the cave and I’m a really social person.
Nina: 6:08I like being connected to my friends. Most of the time I consider myself pretty secure. I like to assume the best and if someone doesn’t text back, i may be annoyed at the inconvenience of having to reach back out, like if we’re making plans and Kat Vellis and I did an episode on group texts and just how it can be difficult to schedule. Like if somebody just holds out. Someone isn’t answering, how it holds everyone up, but I usually come at it from a place of oh, it probably fell down in their texts because that happens to me. If it’s not in the first couple, i might get lost And most of the times I can come at that in a secure way. If I’m in that first year after each kid was born and I’m just not really hanging out with people as much, i’m much more anxious Oh, why didn’t they text me back? I might not have the secure response, i might have the anxious response, and that’s less about the friend and more about just where I was at in life.
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 6:57Yeah, absolutely, One of the person they interviewed was he put it as sometimes I go back to my basement, right? I think we all have the capacity for all three different types of attachments, and how they manifest will really depend on where we’re at mentally and the status of our relationships. It’s natural when someone’s really avoided towards you to fear whether they like you right. It’s natural when someone like an anxious person might demand a lot out of you and to feel like, oh, I need to pull away and back away, And so I think all of us can be in touch with any of these three attachment styles at a given time.
Nina: 7:32So conflict was one of my favorite chapters because it is 100% the thing I avoid the most, and it’s almost like some of my entire episodes are about avoiding conflict, because sometimes we do want to avoid conflict But I’m at the point where I realize the goal can’t always be to avoid conflict, and you had a quote in there that I loved I’m going to share with everybody. I mean, you had a ton of them. I like the whole book I was highlighting, but this one I’m going to share here. You said sharing anger conveys that we’re trustworthy enough to be up front and invested enough to confront Conflict with friends can restore and even deepen our friendships. And I like is not in my head, and it’s so true because when I think about people I have had conflicts with, most times we are closer after because I’ve shared something And, like we’re using the word anger Get, your title of the chapter uses the word anger and we will use the word anger a lot.
Nina: 8:24I think another way of saying anger is hurt feelings, genuine hurt feelings. When you share that, you don’t do that unless you care about the friendship. If you really didn’t care, you would just withdraw, which I think a lot of people do. Do you see that a lot that with trying.
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 8:39Absolutely. I mean, i cite some research in the book that when it comes to conflict, we’re more likely to address it in our romantic relationships than in our friendships, and I think one of the themes that’s come up as I’ve written this book is what makes one relationship work, makes another. If you couldn’t be in a romantic relationship with someone without eventually addressing or confronting some sort of issue, that’s going to be true for the intimacy of friendships, and so I think we have to normalize conflict as part of intimacy, rather than a red flag that a relationship needs to end or an excuse to sort of just withdraw and back away, which is what we tend to do when we have issues with friends.
Nina: 9:16So true that that was drawing, that not answering a text, that not returning a phone call, that kicking the can down the road to make plans. Sometimes I’ve had people on the show and I’ve said it too. We’ve advised that sometimes, if you are trying to have a friendship, be less close. those are the things we do, and so it would make sense that if you’re on the receiving end of a drawing, you’re getting the message this person doesn’t want to be as close. Sometimes. that is true. Sometimes we do it for that reason. But let’s get into how we can express our anger with friends, and then we will get to how we can receive it, because if people are taking this advice, that means we also need to be on the receiving end of friends of ours wanting to share conflict.
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 9:55So I will say, when there is an issue in the friendship that isn’t just passing, that’s continued to be on your mind and to affect how you engage with the friend, right, maybe you’re still talking to them, but there’s not the same level of intimacy, you’re not as excited about it, you’re not wanting to reach out as much.
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 10:14You notice it has some sort of impact in how you’re interacting with that friend. That might be a sign that you need to address a problem, or you’re angry, and you’ve been angry, right. I talk about this chapter as we need to use anger as a symbol, that we need to heal something rather than just push it away, because what happens when we just push it away is that there were so many junctures where we could have healed something and we didn’t, and then it gets to be too much, we’ve accumulated too many grudges And at that point all we feel like we can really do is withdraw from the friendship, and that’s why expressing our issues, expressing our anger in a certain type of way, is really a portal to healing the friendship.
Nina: 10:57That’s so beautifully said And I know I’m like 100% making an Instagram quote out of that. I can just picture it. We’re going to talk about your social media at the end, by the way, and how helpful it is, just in those little bites. But okay, so you’ve decided that in this friendship, this isn’t something I want to let go, because we do let a lot of things go and sometimes that’s for the better. I think it is okay to let certain things go, but I like your point.
Nina: 11:18That is, if it’s something that you’re still thinking about, it’s maybe a repetitive behavior. It’s not just like a one time thing. Sometimes people flake out and you know it’s a rare thing and you can take the longevity of the friendship into account and say they’ve been a good friend 95% of the time. I say if you want friends to give you room to mess up, you have to give them a little room. Friends do make mistakes and that’s okay, but when it’s a repetitive thing, yes, and you’ve decided it’s worth now coming at it. What are some things to say? What are some ways to start that information? How do you engage like this? Questions to ask yourself before all these things. There’s such good advice in the book, but I’d love to hear it directly from you.
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 11:58Well, i’ll share some of my own journey, because today I got asked by another journalist like what is your hardest piece of your own advice to take? And I’m like addressing conflict. It takes me months Now I know how to do it and that I should do it. But that doesn’t mean my body isn’t very afraid And I really have to push myself to be in a centered place, be taking care of myself and just keep reminding myself that this can deepen the intimacy until I can kind of persuade myself of it, because it feels very, very scary for me.
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 12:30I tried to push conflict away so much that I was distancing myself from one of my best friends And I realized that I thought I was saving the friendship by trying to get over it on my own. But in not being able to get over it I was making the friendship so much worse, i was sabotaging it because now we couldn’t address it, now we couldn’t heal, now we couldn’t reconcile. Now I will say, not addressing conflict is like making someone holding someone guilty before you’ve given them a trial, because sometimes the conflict, the issue you had, they have a brilliant justification. That would totally change how you interpret the harm if you only knew, if you only gave them a chance to explain themselves. So, reading a study, that was like, apparently, if you address conflict in an empathic way, that is correlated with more intimacy in your friendship, and I was like, huh, so having open conflict can benefit my friendships? Okay, okay, all right, and so I just started to look into the science more. What does this tend to look like, this open and empathic conflict? And it looks like not blaming people, assuming positive intent, expressing what your needs are, taking their perspective while also considering your own. So it doesn’t look like I think a lot of us is script around anger and conflict, which is like I’m about to tell you about yourself and you sit down and listen.
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 13:56So what the different steps are? The first is really just to soothe yourself, because anger, while it’s very valuable, and that it tells us there’s an issue we need to address. If we embody the emotion of anger, we are low in perspective taking. We tend to just think about protecting ourselves and not protecting our relationship. So you want to take some time to process and sit with that anger, meditate, exercise, talk to someone else about the problem. Whatever can bring you to a place where you feel calm enough to come out the conversation in a way that you’re thinking about them and you’re thinking about you and you’re trying to de-escalate and you’re trying to understand and offer empathy and empathize with yourself. So that’s really important, that pause.
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 14:37I think framing is really important. So that’s the first touch that you have about the conflict. So you want to frame the conflict as an act of love which helps your friend from going into fight or flight mode. So you say something like, hey, our friendship is so important to me, so I just wanted to make sure we could talk about something that’s weighing on me, so it doesn’t create any distance between us, something very loving. And you arrange a time to talk about it. So they feel prepared.
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 15:01And once you meet up with them, you want to share how the problem is impacting you. You don’t want to tell them about themselves and how they’re a bad friend, they’re lousy, they’re a disappointment, they’re flaky. You want to just say, hey, when you cancel our hangouts last minute, i feel unloved, i feel hurt. And you also want to ask for their perspective because, again, in hearing what’s going on for them, it can fundamentally change how things are sitting with you. So you want to then say, yeah, i was just wondering what’s going on for you when you need to cancel last minute, like is there something else going on that I may not be privy to? And maybe they’re like actually I’ve been really depressed And I don’t really know if I’m going to have the energy to get out of bed And that’s going to give you the empathy, the explanation you need And you’re going to realize oh, this wasn’t a malicious thing, right? So it’s really helpful to get their perspective.
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 15:49I think you should know that conflict and friendship is hard. People are not used to it. So often friends will think you’re attacking them, even if you’re not, even if you use all these tips. So one thing I say is really important is being able to deescalate. You hear your friend escalating. You bring it back down, right.
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 16:06They’re telling you well, you need to know about yourself. You do this, this and this, and you’re not counterattacking. You’re just saying OK, i hear that you have some other issues, maybe that we should also talk through about how I’ve been treating you, and I’d love to hear about those. But maybe we can just focus on this part And then I want to hear you out on what some of your issues are. Right, it’s almost like you’re a teacher. I talk about deescalating as splitting into two selves. You’ll see the part of yourself that wants to fight back and you have to picture yourself splitting into two selves so you can kind of watch that part And then instead engage strategically to meet your goal, which is healing the friendship. It’s not punishing someone or blaming or having a big fight, right Yeah? So stay close and connected to that goal.
Nina: 16:48It’s like we’re looking for a win-win And I think people, even romantic relationships, really struggle with that. This isn’t a win-lose. Somebody is losing. You’re losing too. Then Maybe you made your points and you proved your points. If you do it in a way that is, like you said, shaming and blaming and not taking responsibility for your part, because it takes two to dance, right, if you can’t do it without two winners, i just think it’s probably best not to. Not that you shouldn’t bring it up, but you like I love all your tips like to bring it up with the goal of everyone wins Once you had a chance to be heard and that the goal is, like you said, the goal is to heal the friendship period.
Nina: 17:27The goal isn’t to score a point or prove a point. And I also think another really important thing I want to make sure listeners really get this is providing little contacts before you start, just letting the friend know I would like to meet. I have something on my mind. I know I’ve made that mistake and I’ve been on the receiving end of that mistake. I was a little upset with somebody and I actually already read your book when I did this, but I called and said Hey, i’m a little confused about something. That’s what it was more of a confusion thing, i should have said I’m a little confused about something I’d love to clarify. I’d like to clarify, i’d like for you to clarify, and I should have let her know that and then given her a chance to call me back when it was a good time. It wasn’t really a good time and I just kind of went into it anyway, i wasn’t yelling or anything, it just wasn’t the right time, and so it added a little tension to something that it really didn’t need to be tense. It really just needed a clarification. Luckily, we’re very close and we were able to go right past that, but it wasn’t fair of me to not say Hey, i’m, this thing happened, i’d like to understand it better, can we talk about it?
Nina: 18:27And that’s happened on the other end, where really it was via text, right, got a text with no context. No, like Hey, i’m upset about something, i’d like to talk that they just went right at it And it’s like Whoa, you just feel attacked and unprepared. You do So. All these tips could help us avoid these things, because the goal is always to heal the friendship. But if that’s not your goal, well, it’s kind of like them. Why bother? an expression in your book I liked a lot, which is It’s a breakup or open up. Those are kind of the two choices. Are we breaking up this friendship or?
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 18:58is this an?
Nina: 18:59opportunity to open up. Open up how you’re feeling. Let the other person open up.
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 19:03It’s ultimately about making the unsaid said. We do not do that enough in friendships, which is why, oh my gosh, such I mean I don’t want to call them minor or little, because they aren’t in our own subjective realities and we all have our triggers. But those things that you think are minor or little and you invalidate them and think this isn’t worth bringing up, those just accumulate more and more over time until we’re like why don’t I want to hang out with this person, like what’s going on? And so at some point we just need to make that unspoken spoken, because otherwise it can be really acidic for the friendship.
Nina: 19:36Yeah, and it is hard. I appreciate that it’s even hard for you. You probably get this kind of issue way worse than I do. I have been writing about friendship, not from an expert perspective, but just as somebody really interested in friendship, for a long time It’s been like eight years And because of that sometimes our friendship issues come up. People say to me well, you’re the expert. I’m like no, i’m really just a regular person. But even though you actually are an expert, you’re also just a regular person And you can know all the studies and know what’s best to do. But it’s still hard in real life and you don’t want to be put on a pedestal of you know how to be the perfect friend at all times. You’re still human And just like asking you from a human perspective, writing a book like Platonic and being in the work you’re in, does it put pressure on you to do everything by the book?
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 20:23It does. I think I realized that I was getting kind of exhausted by social interaction and I’m an introvert, so that’s normal. But I think what I was also getting exhausted by is and I think this was my projection, more than other people putting this on to me that I had to be the best all the time. And you know, we all know we should have a healthy diet and exercise, but we don’t do it, and it’s just intellectually, it’s to understand something, and then physically, it’s a completely different matter. So, yeah, even though I sometimes know what is the best thing to do, do I always do it?
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 20:55No, and I liked writing Platonic because I feel like I was able to be honest with that. Like every chapter, i’m like, hey, y’all, i screwed this up, so this is what I did wrong, but this is what the research tells us. So it’s funny that I feel like Platonic is mine and not mine, because it’s so much based on the existing research. That’s out there where I’m like okay, this is what we should all be doing together And this is how I’m trying to do a little better. So this is what I can recommend to you.
Nina: 21:22That’s exactly the attitude I come at in this podcast. It’s easier in the podcast was talking about it. I’m much more honest and vulnerable about my mess ups, Like I just did even here on this episode. you did a great job of that in your book because you are giving advice, but you did share a lot of your own and people who spoke to you for the book you were able to share their experiences too. Before we wrap up, I just wanted to talk a teeny bit about receiving that anger. Let’s say now you are on the receiving end of the text that says, Hey, I have something I want to talk to you about. Can we make some time? Now you’re finally sitting down or maybe you’re having a phone conversation, because maybe it’s long distance. What advice do you give to the recipient?
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 22:02First of all, when you’re in an intimate relationship, your goal is to try to meet each other’s needs in a reasonable way. There’s limitations of that. I talk about that in my chapter on generosity, but I think that should be what you’re going in, thinking that I want to meet this person’s needs because they’re important to me. That’s what intimacy is We’re trying to show up for each other. And so when your friend has a concern, you want to engage in something called responsiveness, which just kind of just means being responsive to their needs, and it’s linked to just so many benefits in our relationships. And it has three parts. One is understanding, which is kind of just like you summarize what they said back at them to indicate that you’re listening.
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 22:41I hear that you are upset with me because I didn’t show up for you when you were in the hospital. Validation, which is telling them their feelings are valid. It’s opposite of defensiveness. I get why you’re hurt. I understand why that’s hurt. I might be hurt too if I was in that situation. And the third is care, where you share what you’re going to do in the future. So next time you’re in the hospital I’m definitely going to be more intentional about showing up for you, and that’s it.
Nina: 23:07You make it sound simple. I do think it can be as simple as that really. I really do, and I’m a big believer in forgiveness and a huge piece of getting someone’s forgiveness, i agree, is promising to act different in the future and then acting different in the future. I mean you have to actually change your behavior Exactly And being acknowledged. I loved the little conversation you just did. I would feel the same way if I was in the hospital and you didn’t show up. Simple acknowledgement that the person isn’t made a big deal over nothing. No one wants to feel like they’re upset for no reason And a lot of times we are upset for a good reason and it could be so easily solved if it was just acknowledged that there was a mess up. I’m sorry it won’t happen again and I would have felt the same way. Wow, that would just done. Healed, i think it really would be.
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 23:54When someone brings up an issue with us, just remembering it as an act of love, like they are giving us an opportunity to reconcile and to heal things And also they’re giving us enlightenment as to how we can do better as a friend, and that’s gold. How rare do we get that in our interactions? And if we can remember in a larger way, this is really going to help me grow as a person, even if it hurts in the moment. I think that can be helpful with making us less defensive.
Nina: 24:17I think that’s a perfect place to end. It’s such good advice to even go further than this. People really need to read your book. There’s so many topics, because a whole separate topic would be and we’re not even going to address it in this episode but it would be what if this conversation fails? Now we’re more in the breakup territory, and that’s a separate thing, and people are going to have to read your book and read all your articles, because I know you’ve spoken and written a lot about that too. Can you tell listeners where to find you on social media?
Dr. Marisa G. Franco: 24:46Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, nina. This was a pleasure. I love this topic because it’s so hard for me too. I share the expert tips, but you should know that I’m struggling with you as you’re listening to this. You can find me on Instagram or Twitter at Dr Marisa G Franco, that’s D-R-M-A-R-A-S-A-G-F-R-A-N-C-O, or at my website, wwwdrmarisagfrankocom. I offer a free quiz to assess your strengths and weaknesses as a friend. Plotonic is sold anywhere. Books are sold. Please leave a review if you like it. That is much appreciated.
Nina: 25:18Absolutely. Thank you for making the time. I know that you get a lot of requests because I can see that, as I said, and all the articles I read, i’m like there’s Marisa again, there’s Marisa again. It’s amazing. Thanks to all my listeners for being here. As I always say, because I believe it very deeply, when our friendships are going well, we are happier all around. And if you have been listening to the podcast and liking it, i would love if you would share an episode with a friend. That is so, so helpful. See you next week.
