Nina Badzin: 0:06Welcome to another episode of Dear Nina Conversations about Friendship. Today we’re talking about a topic that people have written to me about consistently over eight, nine years or so that I’ve been writing about friendship, and that is being an introvert in an extroverted world. I am so glad that I have Heidi Schertock here to help me. Heidi is becoming a very well-known romantic comedy writer. She lives right here in Minneapolis. Heidi’s stories have been fun niche in the rom-com world. She is an Orthodox woman and her romance novel stars an Orthodox woman and her book is called Unorthodox Love. I have not read it yet but I’m very excited to read it and it’s gotten wonderful reviews so far. I know we’ll just keep getting lots of attention. Heidi and I both live in Minneapolis. We don’t really know each other, although we’ve seen each other from afar and on social media over the years and we both had a hop around in the same community somewhat. She’s really in the Orthodox community. I call myself Frum Friendly.

Heidi Shertok: 1:07I want to call myself that.

Nina Badzin: 1:09I call myself that because I am not Orthodox, but I have probably more Orthodox friends than most non-Orthodox Jewish women. We have known each other as writers from afar for a long time. Yeah, so let me officially say hi, heidi, and welcome to Dear Nina.

Heidi Shertok: 1:24Hi Nina. Thank you so very much for having me on the show. I am so excited to be here, especially to discuss this topic that is so near and dear to my heart.

Nina Badzin: 1:36I think what would be helpful is if we first define introvert and extrovert the way you see it, and then I can tell you if I see it differently, because those are very common words nowadays. With the way Instagram is and the way memes are, I mean, those words just get thrown around a lot. So let’s make sure we’re operating under same enough definitions.

Heidi Shertok: 1:55Yes, I would love that, especially because growing up, I had very different definitions of what it meant. I always thought that being an introvert automatically means you’re kind of shy, quiet, bookish, whereas being an extrovert meant you’re loud and bubbly and you love to party that sort of thing. And later, maybe in the last decade or so, I discovered what it really means. To be an introvert or an extrovert is what gives you energy and what takes away your energy. So, for an introvert, what gives me energy, for example, is being by myself in a quiet room away from people, whereas being an extrovert which I have a lot of friends who are extroverts and they just want to be with people. That’s how they get their energy.

Nina Badzin: 2:44I’m operating under the same exact definition. I also consider myself an introvert. You had told me that you consider yourself an introvert and that you sometimes run into issues with that.

Heidi Shertok: 2:56Well, first of all, just growing up, it just gave me some sort of complex because I knew I wasn’t like my friends. My friends were constantly saying hey, do you want to come over after school? Let’s do a sleepover, let’s do this, let’s do that. After being in the classroom all day with these people, I just wanted time away from them, and I also just wanted time away from my family. I just wanted time to watch TV or read a book, just to sort of settle myself down. But it seems like my friends didn’t need that. They just wanted to keep the party going.

Nina Badzin: 3:27I always joke about in my marriage I’ve talked about this piece of it a lot is that Brian, my husband, is definitely an extrovert and we go out a lot of Saturday nights with friends and I love being with my friends, but when I’m home I’m done. I would love to read, watch a show.

Nina Badzin: 3:43You can relate to that His cup is now overflowing in a good way and he wants to keep it overflowing. And my cup is overflowing… been diminished by then it starts full. Like I’m excited to see everybody. I do want to be with people. Friendship, obviously goes without saying, is important to me, but I am like you. I have to have a long time. We’ve gotten to the point where he puts in his calendar I don’t think that’s something I’ve shared before. It’s a fun Brian tidbit. Brian’s a fun character. He puts in his calendar every Sunday to make sure I’ve had some alone time, because he knows if I haven’t by about five o’clock on Sunday, I am super unpleasant to be around.

Heidi Shertok: 4:17That is so awesome. I am going to tell Daniel to do that, because he is totally an extrovert, even though people think he’s the introvert because he’s more quiet and shy at first.

Nina Badzin: 4:28As an adult, especially in a community like yours. I’m interested in how, being an introvert in the orthodox community, where there’s so many celebrations and sad reasons to get together I mean, there’s just a lot of getting together- oh my gosh, I am so happy you brought that up.

Heidi Shertok: 4:43In fact, I wrote a piece for Keller, do you know?

Nina Badzin: 4:46Yes, I’ve written many pieces for them.

Heidi Shertok: 4:48I think my first piece was about. That was just how difficult it is Because of all this partying. I figured Moses and all those people must have obviously been huge extroverts. That’s funny. Yeah, so definitely within the confines of my community there is so much getting together. My worst nightmare, for example, is God forbid if there comes a time when I’m going to have a parent die or something like that, where you have to sit Shiva, which is basically you’re at home and you can’t leave the house for seven days, and then everybody you know and their mother comes trampling in. I think there are set hours, but there’s way too many hours and you can’t wear makeup. So it’s just my complete nightmare.

Nina Badzin: 5:36Yeah, I know I’ve been to some shivas in the community and it’s a different scene that it is in the non-orthodox community and I don’t know if you’ve ever been to a non-orthodox Shiva. I mean, it’s somewhat like you’re describing. I don’t feel like people adhere to the makeup piece, for example, and it’s not that common that people do seven days anymore.

Heidi Shertok: 5:55That’s a lot, and you know. So that’s just one example. I do know somebody who actually hid in her bedroom and I’m like that is so cool. That’s what I’m going to be doing.

Nina Badzin: 6:05I mean, it really is up to you, I suppose.

Heidi Shertok: 6:07I mean, what are they going to do? Drag me out.

Nina Badzin: 6:09Right. So in your life, how have you found a way to solve for this? I’ll try to figure out what I have done too.

Heidi Shertok: 6:16I would love to hear your tips. Well, first of all, the goal is not to freak out, because that has happened to me before, where, many years ago, we were hosting Shabbat lunch and we had a couple of young families over with young kids and by the time it was our four of everyone running around in my house screaming just so much noise. I didn’t know what to do, so I literally went out the back door of my house and I walked for miles and by the time I came back, shabbat was almost over and my husband said to me well, everyone’s gone.

Nina Badzin: 6:53Did he apologize for you. Like what does he do?

Heidi Shertok: 6:55That’s a good question. I think he does. In fact he does tell people. Okay, you think my wife is this party type person, but actually she’s not, but I’m interested. So he does tell people. With my good friends, for example, they know who I am and they know not to be insulted and a lot of them are in fact introverts themselves, which probably helps they get it. They know it’s not personal.

Nina Badzin: 7:21One solution I have for myself is that I often schedule walks with friends as opposed to lunches, which just, for many reasons, is not just because of the introvert thing, but I sit so much and you probably also sit a lot as a writer. I sit a lot as a podcaster and a writer and I almost really can’t take like another hour to sit, and it’s never an hour. Lunch is not really an hour. A walk is an hour. Lunch is an hour and 25 minutes and it’s. It makes a difference.

Heidi Shertok: 7:47That is such a good tip. So unfortunately, because I’m in that Orthodox community, I mean I love the idea of it, but there’s two meals where it’s not even just one course, and dessert you usually have not always but it’s like two courts, it’s like a three hour thing.

Nina Badzin: 8:03Well, you’re talking about Anshaba on Saturday.

Heidi Shertok: 8:06Anshaba, sorry, and it’s every week. You don’t always have to have a guest, of course, and so a lot of times we don’t just for our sanity. I mean even Daniel, he’s the cook, so he needs a break every now and then. It’s just, it feels constant, and then when the holidays roll around, you know it’s just a lot for an introvert.

Nina Badzin: 8:25I really should do another episode sometime on the art of who to invite for all these meals and how to get invited, which maybe is a little too niche Orthodox. So there’s another term that I’ve been hearing more in the past handful of years. I’m sure it’s been around longer than that. Have you ever heard of an ambivert?

Heidi Shertok: 8:43Yes, my brother says, that’s what he is.

Nina Badzin: 8:45I wonder if that’s what I am. What I understand of that is that if we’re saying introvert is not necessarily shy, which people really do. You said that I’m saying it to. People really use that word incorrectly. I mean, shy is a thing, but that you can be introverted and shy. You could also be extroverted and shy, meaning you get energy from being around other people, but it takes a minute for you to speak up. I’m not shy at all, but I just get the energy sapped after a while. But the fact that I do like to be around people so much, I wonder if I’m an ambivert. They say an ambivert is someone who may need a long time to recharge but also does feel energized around people. Maybe that’s closer.

Heidi Shertok: 9:24And my sister has said, for example, she considers herself an introvert, except when it comes to certain people like our mom or me or her best friend. She can be around those people all the time and in fact she’s happier like that. So I don’t know if that’s a whole other thing or if that is an ambivert.

Nina Badzin: 9:44When I will say that when I’m around, like one of my sisters in law, jackie shout out to Jackie is also an introvert and sometimes we joke about we can be together and not talk. So we will open our computers, we will unabashedly have coffee or something and talk, but then after a while we’ll be like do you want to just work? We’ll just open our computers and we’ll be together, but we have no problem where someone else might consider that rude or insulting. That’s two introverts who want to be out of the house, who enjoy each other’s company but also still need the quiet time and you can kind of get lost in your own thing in a good way. That’s what I want, I think, sometimes from Brian, which he’s unable to do. That’s why he has to put it in his calendar, because if I’m in a room he has to talk to me. It just has to.

Heidi Shertok: 10:27That is so funny only because it’s so similar to Daniel. Unless he’s on his phone doing YouTube or something, then he’s okay.

Nina Badzin: 10:36Is there any other way? Being an introvert has been an issue for you.

Heidi Shertok: 10:39Yes, If I am having, let’s say, family issues with my kids or something kind of serious, I put my friendships on the back burner, because I can only handle so much stimulation or noise or, like we said earlier, my energy. So I will prioritize my energy on my family and it really at one point broke a friendship I had with one of my closest friends because of that.

Nina Badzin: 11:06So she felt like you weren’t there for her, or slighted, or what do you think?

Heidi Shertok: 11:10Well, I kind of freaked out in fact, and later I apologize. She’s somebody who needed more energy and on a day to day basis and I just said to her I need a break from you. I’m sorry, but I need time away from you. I felt terrible. For the longest time she felt terrible, and then she re-reached out to me and so now we’re good again, but that was very traumatic for on both sides.

Nina Badzin: 11:36So first, I appreciate you sharing that, because I think people don’t share stories like that enough. I love a story with a reconciliation because you can reconcile. It doesn’t always have to be okay. We had this thing and now we’re never friends again. But like maybe you could be friends differently now. Instead of talking every day, could you catch up once a week on the phone. Maybe that’s enough at this stage of life.

Heidi Shertok: 11:56Another friend of mine had said to me you know what, you just need to set firmer boundaries. So when we did reconcile, you know we were hugging and saying goodbye to her. I just said you know what, I’m not going to be giving you as much attention as before because I have a lot going on now, but I still want to have a friendship with you. And right away she accepted that.

Nina Badzin: 12:17This touches on something I really try to get across a lot. You just can’t have every friend for every reason, so it’s like you freed her up. You were honest with her is actually a gift. You were honest with her to say I can’t be. This friendship liberated her to go find someone who could be a friend like that to her. Instead of looking in the wrong place, she was looking to you. You were the wrong person. It doesn’t mean that you can’t be friends. You just can’t be that friend.

Heidi Shertok: 12:40It’s almost like when you’re dating somebody but you’re in it short term and that person needs long term. It’s almost like you’re wasting their time, a little like you’re not really in it. So this did free her up to look for your friends.

Nina Badzin: 12:52It would be nice if you knew what someone’s intentions were.

Heidi Shertok: 12:56Because we don’t wear it on our shirts.

Nina Badzin: 12:57Yeah, I know, and people aren’t always good at like reading signs. It’s sometimes we get frustrated but like, oh, I tried to let them know, I didn’t text back or I didn’t call back. That is a good place to start, because sometimes it’s nice not have to be so direct. But if that’s not working, then you’re going to have to be direct, which is hard. I’m not saying that’s easy. So this friend of yours, she’s not doing anything wrong. She’s someone who likes to be real close touch, like in close touch, talking the phone a lot. She needs a daily friend and you just can’t be that for her.

Heidi Shertok: 13:22Exactly, and I mean everyone’s just wired differently. That’s how I think of it. Some people are morning people, some people are night people, so it’s kind of the same thing. I always would shame myself and I still do. To be honest, because we live in an extroverted world, I feel terrible that I can’t give more of myself to my friends when they need it all the time.

Nina Badzin: 13:42Do you think social media is making us a less extroverted world? I wonder if it is, and in this way, not a good way. Or is it a different kind of extroversion, because you still have to be on?

Heidi Shertok: 13:53Right. I feel like it’s different, but also the same. It’s still sapping my energy when people are texting me and we’re texting at the same time, maybe I put too much pressure on myself to respond right away, or this person’s waiting for me. I’m like the worst combination, because I tend to want to be a people pleaser but then at the same time I guess I become resentful later or I let it build up and it’s not healthy. It’s kind of a bad combination being an introvert and a people pleaser.

Nina Badzin: 14:22Yeah, you got to work on that, heidi. That is a bad combination, I know I can relate to that. I have a lot of people pleasing I’ve talked about that in many episodes and it’s not good to be a people pleaser because it’s impossible. It’s an impossible task. You cannot please everyone. So I try to tell myself that, but it’s easier to tell somebody else. Being a people pleaser sets you up for failure, basically.

Heidi Shertok: 14:43And it’s really hard as an author, of course, because you definitely find out very quickly. You’re not going to please everybody.

Nina Badzin: 14:50Well, you know, if you don’t mind, I’d love to transition to discussing the book, because I cannot wait to read it. I see so much buzz about this book and to be in this very particular niche of orthodox romance. Okay, tell me first, will orthodox readers read it?

Heidi Shertok: 15:08I know some will. Will my high school principal read it? I sure hope not. So I think there’s sort of a spectrum when it comes to Orthodox women as to how much sort of outside. What would you call that?

Nina Badzin: 15:26Like entertainment.

Heidi Shertok: 15:27Like secular, yeah, like what they would expose themselves to. So I think the people who are comfortable reading a romance will definitely read it, and people who wouldn’t read a romance will not.

Nina Badzin: 15:40So I’ve read the Motsball by Jean Meltzer. That was the first time I had read really a Jewish rom-com. It wasn’t Orthodox, in this case was it.

Heidi Shertok: 15:49There was some traditional I think. Maybe her parents were like modern Orthodox or just maybe Orthodox.

Nina Badzin: 15:55Okay.

Heidi Shertok: 15:56But the main character wasn’t?

Nina Badzin: 15:57That was a great concept. In that book she was secretly writing Christmas romances.

Heidi Shertok: 16:02I loved it.

Nina Badzin: 16:03Films maybe.

Heidi Shertok: 16:04And she’s a rom-com writer too.

Nina Badzin: 16:06She endorsed your book.

Heidi Shertok: 16:07She is really sweet in real life, and so I really love her too. I just get so much support from other authors, and every time it just surprises me.

Nina Badzin: 16:17It is nice because it is kind of back to the introvert thing. A lot of authors are introverts and then once it’s time to promote your book, now you have to kind of get over whatever amount of solitude that you require and everything and you have to be out there, whether in real life or on social media, pushing that book.

Heidi Shertok: 16:36And I feel terrible because my publishers are like every day, be promoting, every single day. But basically it feels weird to be constantly doing self-promotion. It just feels like, hey, this is my life. It’s almost the antithesis of what I believe people should. I don’t know, it just feels weird.

Nina Badzin: 16:56No, I know I have a two with the podcast. I had somebody in my life give me a hard time once about promoting myself and she’s like, oh, you’re so promotional and I’m sort of like no one’s going to know about this thing unless I tell them. I cannot rely on just the goodness of friends and family to spread the word. That’s not how it works.

Nina Badzin: 17:14It starts with me the creator of this podcast. I’m the one who’s going to let people know and then people will share it from there. But people are not running around being like hmm, whose book and podcast can I promote today? No, like you got to do it yourself. That’s unfortunately how it is.

Heidi Shertok: 17:30There’s numbers to back that up the more often you post, the more likely other people will see your stuff. So I mean, that’s just plain science, right there, that’s right, that’s just how it is.

Nina Badzin: 17:41But in terms of the book, we’re not really on the topic anymore. It’s just so nice to be able to have you here to talk about this. Was it hard to get this book published because of its very specific niche? Because you’re not with a Jewish publisher, right?

Heidi Shertok: 17:53Right. So it’s really funny because I never thought for a second that any agent would be interested in me. But I did that first round of querying and within a few hours I got a response and interest. My husband did the actual querying because I didn’t want to do all that computer stuff. I get this email two weeks later and this woman from the UK says hi, you queried me, your book, but because I’m in the UK you’re going to need a US agent. So I went ahead and I hope it’s all right and I found you a US agent and we both agreed we would partner.

Nina Badzin: 18:33That’s incredible.

Heidi Shertok: 18:34Oh my God. And then so for our first Zoom meeting that I had with them before we did a contract. Their first question is so why did you go to a UK agent?

Nina Badzin: 18:44Did you have a good answer? Was it like my husband did it?

Heidi Shertok: 18:46And then I said well, I asked my husband that and he said I don’t know. She popped up first. So funny, she must be doing a lot of posting.

Nina Badzin: 18:54Did they get a kick out of the fact that your husband was the one doing it?

Heidi Shertok: 18:57They didn’t really laugh, they’re just like oh, that’s different.

Nina Badzin: 19:02Okay, I love that, isn’t that a weird story, yeah.

Heidi Shertok: 19:05And then the acquisition process, when you’re selling it to the different publishing houses, and of course you start off at the biggest houses. That was really rough because the editors would like it for example, some did, some didn’t. But if the rest of the people that in the house didn’t like it because you needed like five other people up there to agree that this book is going to make the house money, and if they didn’t agree, forget about it. So I would get my hopes up and then they’d be dashed. And then they’d get up and then they’d be dashed. But within three months I had gotten a US deal and then after that my UK deal came in maybe a month later, and then my Brazil deal. I didn’t even know that was like a thing that, but I guess there was a scout who had gone to the UK from Brazil and he heard about it or she heard about it.

Nina Badzin: 19:58So they think there is an audience reading in Portuguese an Orthodox rom-com. I just love this world we live in. That makes me happy.

Heidi Shertok: 20:07And it’s bizarre because I know they translated it into Hebrew for an Israeli person and it was turned down. Wow, so crazy, world Crazy world. And it is so hard nowadays to make a niche for yourself, especially in romance, because it’s all been done. Before I was telling my Catholic friend, hey, maybe you could write Catholic romance, but that’s been done, amish romance has been done. So Orthodox Judaism, luckily, hasn’t been really done. A little bit with Jean, like we were saying but yours is different.

Nina Badzin: 20:42It’s your trailblazer right here from Minneapolis. I’m so proud.

Heidi Shertok: 20:46I guess I give thanks to my parents because this is how they raised me.

Nina Badzin: 20:50So you grew up Orthodox.

Heidi Shertok: 20:52Yes, my family’s Kabad, which I love. Kabad is where my heart is Me too.

Nina Badzin: 20:57I grew up Kabad. I grew up before him, but we love Kabad.

Heidi Shertok: 20:59I just love what they stand for, but the schools I went to are more what they would call Lipvish or Ishibish, so it’s a different style, but also Orthodox.

Nina Badzin: 21:10Is your book being marketed for adults? What do you think?

Heidi Shertok: 21:13I have a 16-year-old teenage daughter and she read it. It was slightly traumatized by a line or two. So in general, I would say if you are someone who’s more careful about what you let your kids read, then this is probably not the book for you, even though they are calling it a clean romance.

Nina Badzin: 21:34Let’s end with just tell us what the book’s about. I probably should have started with that.

Heidi Shertok: 21:37So my book is about an Orthodox Jewish woman who found out that she was infertile as a teenager and because of that she was not set up with the cream of the crop, so to speak. So by the time she was 29, she had just sort of accepted the fact that, okay, I’m just not going to find love, I’m not going to have kids, that’s that. But she still tried to make the best of it. Who enters the scene? But this hot, sexy new boss who is Jewish but secular, came out of a nasty divorce. He is not interested in a relationship anyway, and yet they have this incredible chemistry and banter. And he’s so fascinated because he’s never met a woman quite like Penina, because she’s Orthodox, but she’s also got quite the sass and she’s also just really committed to her values. She loves being Orthodox. She is very strong in it.

Nina Badzin: 22:34Do you have a film agent.

Heidi Shertok: 22:35I do have a film agent, but she said that it would only become a film if it did really well. And also she said many times books get turned into film, even sometimes like 10 years later.

Nina Badzin: 22:48Yeah.

Heidi Shertok: 22:48It was a great phone call, though I could see she’s amazing at what she does. She made me cry about my book. She was like buckle up girl, because I’m about to tell you what I love and then for the next 10 minutes I’m like oh my gosh, is she Jewish? Yes, so she went to Jewish day schools. She’s not Orthodox or anything, but I think she has that connection for sure.

Nina Badzin: 23:10You know, you can teach her that she is from friendly. You can let her know.

Heidi Shertok: 23:14Yes.

Nina Badzin: 23:15Okay, Heidi, we have to say goodbye. I know we will be connected again, not just because we live in Minneapolis, just because I cannot wait to read this book and thank you so much for being here.

Heidi Shertok: 23:24Thank you, Nina.

Nina Badzin: 23:25Listeners come back next week when our friendships are going well, when we’ve given ourselves the alone time we need, when we have been with enough friends. If we’re more extroverted, we are happier all around. Bye. You know how, when you listen to a podcast, the host always asks you to rate it to review it on Apple Podcasts, spotify or every listen. If a podcast has a lot of reviews and stars, then that is what gets shown.

Nina Badzin: 23:59I am on my way with some great ratings and reviews, but of course, I could always use more. So if you have enjoyed this episode or any other episode, I would so appreciate that you would take the time to do that. One other really helpful thing, if you like the show, is to just share it with a friend. Send them a text, send them an email, say I’m enjoying this podcast about friendship. I think you would too. It makes a huge difference. Thank you for considering all of that. We appreciate your time and I hope we’ll see you again next week. Bye.