[00:00:00] Nina: Welcome to Dear Nina. Conversations about friendship. Today’s episode is about what we learn from friendship breakups because although friendship breakups are really painful, and they are— the internet, books, shows, movies—all the media is full of a lot of friendship breakups.

When there is a book about friendship, like a novel, oftentimes it has a breakup. At its center, even if the friends end up reconciling. But you know, usually in fiction you need some drama. You’re not gonna just have a story of, two best friends who stay best friends forever and there’s no problems.

There’s gonna be some sort of breakup . A threat of a breakup, at least something that gets between the friends and there’s a lot of breakups in nonfiction too. again, sometimes the friends get back together, sometimes they don’t. But whether you reconcile with your friend or not, there is a lot to be learned from a friendship that ends.

I don’t like to think of friendships useful or not, but it is painful when a friendship ends. And I’d say like the least we can do is try to learn something about it to make our next friendships, our other friendships that are happening at the same time, stronger, better— because those breakups are hard. And I’d say the less of those we have to go through the better. But it is not realistic to have zero friendships that end in your life. Actually, I’d be curious to hear from anybody that would be a whole other thing to explore.

Are there people out there whose friendships haven’t ended? And I don’t mean that they always have to end dramatically with some kind of big blowout. It really could just be a fading away, that’s different.

I guess I wouldn’t call that a breakup that’s more just a friendship comes to its natural end. That would be an interesting topic for a different episode, which is just accepting that certain friendships we’re only really meant to be part of your life for a certain time, and we actually get into that a little bit in today’s episode.

I have a really fun guest today because we’re not coming at friendship breakups from the point of view of a therapist. I don’t have a guest who is going to exactly tell us how to manage these. I’m talking to someone who’s been through a friendship breakup and made art out of it.

My guest today is Diamonde Williamson, founder and CEO of Third and Wonder Production House, the go-to media and production company for Black women and Black culture. Diamonde, a TV and documentary director has created hundreds of videos for notable clients like the Oprah Winfrey Network, Google Warner Brothers Essence and More. She’s the host of the podcast Creative Women Wanted, and she’s created some fantastic content, but it’s her newest project that brought her to Dear Nina, and that is an original film called Best Friends Not Forever.

So I of course had to have Diamonde on the show. You can’t make a documentary called Best Friends Not Forever and Not Pay a Visit to Dear Nina. Conversations about friendship because that’s what we’re doing here. We are having conversations with interesting people who have a lot to say about friendship, and Diamonde is definitely one of those people.

Hi Diamonde, welcome to Dear Nina.

[00:03:19] Diamonde: Thank you for having me. I am so, so, so excited to talk to you.

[00:03:23] Nina: We share this passion of this topic and friendship. Breakups are a big topic on my podcast, and it’s universal, it’s ageless. it’s not, one culture, , and I do think it might affect women more.

[00:03:34] Diamonde: It transcends everything you mentioned there. Transcends every demographic, like we all experience it.

[00:03:39] Nina: it so much more painful for a lot of people than a romantic breakup. And we’ll talk about why in a bit. , let’s hold on that thought cause I wanna talk first about what brought you personally to this topic. Because you can do films on any number of things and have done films on lots of things.

What brought you to this one?

[00:03:57] Diamonde: It’s so crazy because I think that, well one, I had a friendship breakup. I’ve had multiple friendship breakups, but the one that I had, recently, I think. It was my therapist saying like, Hey, use your art to heal. Right? And she’s told me that before, but I think this time was different because it was a friendship that I had been in for almost 15 years and we broke up as I had moved to a new state.

So it was a time when I actually needed my friends. So the pain felt really tough. We had a lot of mutual friends and I just needed a way to metabolize the energy and. It came to me. I’m gonna do a documentary about this and I’m really glad that I did.

[00:04:34] Nina: So the mutual friends, that’s, that complicates things because lots of us have friendship breakups, but sometimes you’re moving away from the whole group in some ways, and sometimes that can be cleaner. How did that work with the mutual friends?

[00:04:46] Diamonde: Disappointing, right? Because I think that the challenging part with my mutual friends was that they never acknowledged it. Like nobody was like, Hey, how are you doing about this? Hey, how do you feel? And that’s tough because it’s like, this is something that’s hurtful and you don’t have to take sides. But it’s just like, as a human, I would love for you to check in on my, mental health.

[00:05:07] Nina: That really speaks to me because I say that in a lot of ways. Like I always say, I don’t care if people listen to my podcast, like my own friends, let’s say. But obviously I care. People listen to it. I want people to listen to it, but I don’t expect my friends to all listen to it or family members. But I like if people occasionally say, Hey, how’s it going? Like you can ask someone how they’re doing without getting involved.

[00:05:29] Diamonde: Exactly because I feel like it’s a way of saying, I see you and it’s like, if you don’t acknowledge it then you’re not seeing me because this is a huge part of my life. And it’s like, can you imagine had you had to break up and then you moved to a new town? And I think a part of me felt like it wasn’t acknowledged because I was the one that did the breakup.

So it’s like if I do it. Then you don’t need anything. But I’ll never know. You know how they really feel about acknowledging it?

[00:05:53] Nina: It is a tough position to be in the middle, and I’m sure most of us have been on every side of this. Decided to break up. A friend decided to break up with us, and we’ve had all of us friends that probably broke up and then you don’t know what to say, but I think you are giving a good tip here which is just to ask about it.

And maybe you can even say, Hey, I know you’re probably going through a rough time with this, and we don’t have to get into the details, like you can say to the person, we don’t have to get into the details. Give the person permission to not get too much in the middle of it, but it is, Yeah. Acknowledge.

[00:06:23] Diamonde: I just wanna share like how I’m doing and how I’m feeling. That’s it. And I would love to do it with my friends.

[00:06:28] Nina: Okay, so then the process of the film itself, let’s talk about that because that’s something I know nothing about. I wanna know how you got people to interview, how you got people to be honest on there. Let’s start with that.

[00:06:38] Diamonde: well first I did start with my own interview. I shared my experience on camera first so that I can know exactly what I needed to be a part of the film. Um, but how I even got to the point where, Well, actually, you know, when I think about like, yes, it was part of my own experience, but the more I shared with other people, maybe my filmmaking friends or other good friends, what I was going through with my friendship breakup, the more I realized that other people are experiencing the same thing.

The more that I talked about it, the more I started to do a little healing from it, and the more. I heard other people’s experiences, the more I was like, I gotta do a documentary about this. I’m about to do a documentary about this. And it kind of became clear the more I talked to people. So I first shared my experience, then I reached out to the people who had been some of my friends, like, who were not in my friend group, but some of my other friends.

I reached out to them to be a part of it. So they were a part of it. And then when I needed a larger group, I posted about it on Instagram and there were some people who I reached out to who were not interested in sharing. It was too sensitive of a subject to them, and I completely honored it.

I didn’t push for it at all because it’s like, , it can feel very close, it could feel very tender. so that’s how I got people to be a part of it. And I used my own healing process. For what to put in the film. grief was a big thing I wanted to talk about in the film because it was such a huge part of my experience.

And I got therapists involved and, so yeah, I just used my own process to figure out , how do I want this film to flow?

[00:08:01] Nina: Let’s talk about that process a bit. Cause I get a lot of anonymous questions, by the way. I use them in my newsletter. Friendship. breakups come up a lot. I think friendship topics kind of come into buckets. There’s making friends, there’s keeping friends, and then there’s ending friendships. It’s like that’s it’s own bucket. People ask me a lot, how do you heal from a friendship breakup? There is no one right answer, but how have you found it for yourself? And now that you’ve interviewed all these other people,

[00:08:26] Diamonde: Yeah. So I definitely therapy for sure, but also honoring all of the feelings. It makes me tear up because it’s like all the things that I realized like my feelings were valid. There’s regret there. I honor the regret. There’s nothing I can do about the regret, but I honor the regret.

There’s disgust there where I’m disgusted with the things that I allowed, but I move on there. There is grief, there’s this sadness that comes from Just missing, having somebody feel like is a good friend, you know, their sadness from also realizing like, yo, maybe sometimes she wasn’t a good friend to me.

so I really think the biggest thing was allowing myself to feel every single emotion and not putting a time limit on it either, because while I’m much better than I was last year, there’s still little things that come up where it’s like, man, dang, you know?

[00:09:11] Nina: , you brought up something really interesting that you’re the one who made the decision to do it. And I have to imagine there was a lot of anger on the side of your friend.

[00:09:20] Diamonde: No, that’s the hard part.

[00:09:21] Nina: Oh, that’s interesting.

[00:09:23] Diamonde: We kind of had it on Instagram where I ended it because we were talking, and I was just done she just was like, I understand. So, no, there was no, there was no questions there. And so I think that made it even more hurtful for me because I would love for somebody to not necessarily fight, for our friendship, but advocate for our friendship if they really cared. And there was no advocacy at all. It made me also feel like I did the right thing.

[00:09:50] Nina: Do you remember, I mean, not that you don’t remember. Of course you remember, but sometimes it’s hard to say it off the cuff like this, some of the other stories in the film that stood out to you.

[00:10:00] Diamonde: yes. One of my friends that’s in the film, she talked about how she was the one who led to maybe some of her friendship breakups. Like it was her fault because she wasn’t the communicator. And I thought that was so important to have her perspective in it , and even though I know that , I contribute to my friendship breakup and the challenges.

It was really nice to have somebody who was like, that was her perspective, and that’s the part that she shared was that. She wasn’t communicating, she was realizing that that was a huge part of why her friendships would, I guess the word would be dismantle or why her friendship would kind of fall apart is because she was not communicating. And I have learned too that that, I mean, that’s a huge part of like all relationships, right? Is communication.

[00:10:39] Nina: That’s actually a really fantastic perspective to have in the film because, it’s pretty rare to have someone really articulate this is where they brought issues to the relationship and they kind of don’t blame someone for. While it’s hurtful, they may not blame somebody for not wanting to stay in the friendship.

[00:10:56] Diamonde: Yeah. And see, can I say too, and I actually wanted to just like take ownership from mine because I think the biggest ownership that I have is. That I’m the one that changed. My friend never did, so I stayed in the friendship too long. I could have left a long time ago. She was always who she was, but it was me who changed. And when I changed, I should have left, but I hung on too long.

[00:11:20] Nina: That’s fair and very common, right, this is what all my letters are about. I mean, it is hard to end a friendship. It’s not just hard to have a friendship ended for you. It’s hard to be the one to make that decision. Especially like with friends, you can have more than one. In some ways, there’s no reason that you have to end things , except that it can drain you.

[00:11:36] Diamonde: Exactly. I was reading a book and I liked the way that they said it. It was like, it’s complete, we’re done, we’re complete. The story has ended, the chapter has ended. I have now completed the way I can complete a meal, the way I can complete a grade. I have completed this friendship.

[00:11:52] Nina: , I think you’re a spiritual person. I’ve listened to some of your podcasts and I am as well and I do believe that, you know, sometimes people come into our life for a reason and, and maybe that’s like you’re saying that’s story has they done what they’re supposed to do or maybe your, their life for a reason. It’s not just about who comes into our life. Maybe we were supposed to do something in their lives.

[00:12:12] Diamonde: Exactly. I feel that way. , I think for a long time, like I was angry about how much time I spent in the friendship, but then I got to a point where I was like, thank you. Because I learned some things. I’ve learned what I would like in a friendship. Cause I think when you’re friends with somebody for so long, especially like at such a young age, you kind of just think this is the way that friendships are. That’s what I thought. This is the way that friendships are supposed to go. But when I moved and also got more exposure to the type of friendships I wanted, I learned what worked for me. Then at 18 is not gonna work at 33.

[00:12:41] Nina: That’s so true. So we talked about the story of the woman in the documentary who realized the communication was part of the issue. Any other story that stands out?

[00:12:49] Diamonde: There was a woman in the store who lost multiple friends at once and it’s like, oh my God, that’s so difficult. It was so hard for me to lose one and she lost three. And so for her, I’m really excited that she got to like, share her experience because I—For her to lose her friendships and they still remain friends, I think it’s really challenging. But we also have stories about, you know, stories about women who know how to communicate with each other, who are able to have challenges and strife.

We show a cycle of friendship that, like a friendship breakup. And I include that in the documentary is like from the. Part of making, to, like, having a conflict to deciding are we gonna stay in this friendship or are we going to let it break up? We talk about all of that.

[00:13:29] Nina: Oh, that’s great. I also love stories about reconciliation. Were there stories in there of people who, I know it’s about breakups, but people who were able to reconcile.

[00:13:38] Diamonde: Yes, we have one story like that the film is 18 minutes. It’s very condensed, but there is a story of reconciliation that I think is really beautiful.

[00:13:46] Nina: I had on my podcast, my best friend from college. We stopped speaking for two years after college, and then that was a long time ago. I’m 46. And then we’ve been friends ever since those two years. But I had her on one of my early episodes and we talked all about why we stopped talking, how we started talking again.

I ended up writing her a letter like you, I kind of had decided to. That it was time to step away and I regretted doing that so dramatically. I wish I had done a lot of things differently. And then I wrote her a letter a couple years later and she didn’t answer for a long time because really it was on her terms now.

But eventually she did, and I mean, we just went away. We were just in Colorado together. She lives in Maryland. I live in Minneapolis, so we don’t see each other much, we both have four kids. We both have, you know, we have a lot of things in common, and I think we’re closer for those two years apart.

[00:14:31] Diamonde: Mm. Yeah. You know what? It makes me tear up because like I have two best friends and both of them have had like moments where we’ve paused and we’re closer because of it. And I love that we can talk about it now. And even doing this documentary, allowed me to talk to my current best friend who we’ve had the breakup before, but just allowed me to be more vulnerable with her and how I even felt about our friendship, about our friendship breakup, because it’s like we were, so, we had the friendship breakup, we were maybe 25, 26, and we just got back friends.

But we never talked about like how we felt during that time or how we felt about reconciliation or how we felt after that. And we got to do that. It was so beautiful. Art is so healing and I’m just really thankful to have done this because  I told myself if nobody watches it or nobody likes it, it’s okay because I am healing because of it.

[00:15:21] Nina: I can’t remember if you said this before we started or or if it was on the recording, but that your therapist said to use the art to help you heal, , that was great advice. It really worked.

[00:15:32] Diamonde: She always says it and sometimes I listen, sometimes I don’t. I’m glad I listened this time because , for me, it feels like my best art, my most vulnerable art. Because I’ve told stories about other things in the past as it relates to Black women, but this one feels most close to chest, most vulnerable.

[00:15:46] Nina: Well, actually that’s a good segue because I wanted to ask you, I know we, both said that friendship breakups absolutely affect every person, all demographics, but I’m totally interested in your work specific to Black women and Black culture and. Is there anything you learned in making this film that felt, you know, sort of specific to

[00:16:05] Diamonde: Yes.

[00:16:06] Nina: that?

[00:16:07] Diamonde: I don’t know if it’s specific to it, but it’s, the thing that I heard the most is like, that we don’t talk about this, that we don’t talk about this, that we ignore it, that we will break up with a friend and go about our business like nothing happened. And especially when you have mutual friends or your friendship breakup is in a group, it can feel tough.

And so I. A lot of the women were just so thankful to have this space. And it’s funny because I had, I shared it with a few of my friends, my filmmaker friends, they’re my friends, but they’re filmmakers, and they were like, you’re not done telling the story, you have to keep going because it is sparking something in everybody.

Like, yo, this is how I feel. Or I want to talk to my friend. It also sparked this conversation. Can I tell you about, what happens when you’re friends with somebody and one has children and then the other doesn’t? Right. So it’s, it’s like it’s sparking so much conversation, but I think when it comes to Black women in Black culture, it was just this idea that we don’t talk about it enough.

[00:17:03] Nina: Why do you think that is?

[00:17:05] Diamonde: Hmm. I really don’t know. When I think about, I don’t know, I feel like it’s just something we just didn’t talk about when we were younger, so we don’t talk about it when we’re older, right? Like we deal with breakups when we’re younger, with our partners.

But, and we talk about that, but like with friendships, I don’t know. I think it’s a reflection of the way that we dealt with friendships when we were younger.

[00:17:27] Nina: I’m trying to decide if it’s commonly spoken of, I really can only speak to, you know, like Jewish culture really. I think so. I mean, at least in my experience, although I do get a lot of things or I see a lot of things online where people are like, we never talk about, you know, friendship issues.

And I guess cause I’ve been so engrossed in this topic for almost a decade, I’m like, that’s all I talk about. So I don’t know. But, my mom always talked to me about friends and, the importance of friendship and. She would let me know, you know, if there was an issue going on or something. Maybe there was no, like, no shame in it. It was part of life. There was ups and downs.

[00:18:00] Diamonde: Yeah. So yeah, I don’t think it’s talked about, like, I think a lot of time, the reason that might come up for friendship breakups is a jealousy, and it’s like that’s not always the case. Sometimes it’s this person is not for me. And there’s some things that this person did and they might not have did it because they were jealous.

They might have did it because it’s who they are as a person. So, yes, and I think even when I look at the media landscape, there are very few people that are Black women that are talking about this, in terms of like our stories that are at the forefront, it’s just very rare. I do have more plans for content around, a friendship because it’s still, I’ve, I’ve just moved again. And so this idea of, making friends is so sensitive to me. And so it’s like that’s. Where I’m going in my journey, but people are like, we need to talk about friendship breakup still. I’m like, girl, I gotta move on.

[00:18:48] Nina: Well, there’s all the what’s Yes. I told you like there’s the buckets, right? There’s the, you kind of started at the end, which is like the end of a friendship, but now you’re coming back to the beginning. Where do you live now?

[00:18:57] Diamonde: I’m in Texas now. I’m in Dallas.

[00:18:59] Nina: And you just moved, or you’re moving?

[00:19:00] Diamonde: Just moved, just moved to Dallas, so I was living in la. But see that’s the thing too. You know what? I actually don’t think I started at the end, because my work before this, I had a competition show called Biz Bestie Showdown, where it was best friends competing, against other best friends and business competition shows.

So like I created that too. So I kind of feel like I started in the friendship realm and then moved to the breaking up because even my same friend that I broke up with was in that show with her best friend. So it’s

[00:19:29] Nina: Oh my gosh. Well, and this topic calls you what? You know I get it because it calls to me too. I think the fact that you now, as an adult have moved twice in a kind of short amount of time. You are perfectly poised to do a whole thing on making friends as an adult. That’s your next project.

[00:19:46] Diamonde: It literally is. Because even just moving, I moved to LA I was only there for a year and I was like, oh, I think I had been friends with the same group of people for so long and I had other friends, but nobody as close to me as this same group of people and moving helped me to see that that’s not what I want anymore.

[00:20:05] Nina: That’s really important that you get a chance to see that. See, I’ve lived in the same city for 20 some years. I’m from Chicago, but I’ve been in Minnesota almost my whole adult life. And yeah, you don’t get that distance if you don’t have a chance to go somewhere new. So that’s

[00:20:18] Diamonde: Yes, yes. yes. Thank you. Thank you. So I’m very excited. I’ll make sure that I share the new work with you too, so that you can see.

[00:20:25] Nina: Oh, yeah. And I’ll have you back. Is there anything else you want, you know, my listeners to know about? The documentary or about like things you learned about being a friend from making the documentary?

[00:20:36] Diamonde: Oh, I love it. So I did learn that communication is everything. I feel like now, one of my goals is to be like the best communicator. I learned that communication was affecting, my business, it was affecting my actual relationship. It was affecting my friendship.

But through the documentary, I realized how much it was affecting my friendships, how much of what I wasn’t saying. I was trying to put that responsibility on my friends, but it’s like, there were things I wasn’t saying but I didn’t know. I’m assuming they should know, you know? So I think I’ve learned communication is really important. In making the film I learned that it’s just so important to do something like this was for me. For the artist listening, for anybody that’s creating something anybody, actually any human, some stuff has to just be for us, this documentary and making it was for me but I’m very excited to share it.

[00:21:22] Nina: That really made me smile. Because I feel that way about the podcast sometimes. Like I know I have listeners. I’m glad to, but I love making it anyway. I love the opportunity to talk to cool people like you. I mean, really. Where else would we run into each other? You’re in. LA then Dallas. I’m in Minnesota. I mean, it’s the coolest thing.

[00:21:37] Diamonde: And this is like separate conversation, but I just speak to this as an artist. I think sometimes social media makes us feel like everything we’re doing is for public consumption, for popularity, some of this stuff is really for me because I’m a human and I take life seriously.

So it’s like I’m trying to heal, I’m trying to learn, I’m trying to absorb as much information, I put it into art and I’m very, very, very excited to share it. And I’m thankful for you, thank you for this podcast, this platform, and this conversation. You’re so perfectly poised for what you’re doing. I think it is just so special, to have a full space that’s about friendship. I think that’s so beautiful.

[00:22:11] Nina: Oh, thank you. Well, how can people see the documentary? Because I know people are gonna listen to this  and be like, this is all great. How do we see it?

[00:22:17] Diamonde: So right now, so people can reach out to me directly we’re doing virtual screenings right now, come October 1st, we will be doing a virtual screening online for everyone to see because what we’re finding is it’s really important for people to watch this film together.

It’s very important for women to be in community and see this film because it’s sparking things. It’s encouraging things, and I want Stacey to hear Britney’s story and Alexis to hear Ashley’s story, and they hear it when they’re in person, but when they watch it alone, you absorb it and then you move on. But when you watch it with other people, it starts to spark a conversation. And that’s what this is about.

[00:22:52] Nina: That is right. I love it. The more people talking about this stuff, the better get along better. And I end every episode by saying when our friendships are going well, we’re happier all around. And I think you would agree. That’s my tagline because it’s true.

[00:23:06] Diamonde: It makes me tear up. Because I’m sorry, and I’m gonna say this, it makes me tear up because while I am grieving friendships, I have friendships that I’m celebrating. Like, I had a friend just voicemail me and your other friends that we coming down, we gonna plan our trips together to come see you.

And it’s like, thank you. Thank you so much. So for coming to see me down here, you know, so Yes. And I feel so much better. I, love that they want to come see me, it’s so beautiful.

[00:23:29] Nina: Yes. It just makes us so happy. And the opposite’s true , and that’s what your documentary’s about. When things aren’t going well, it gnaws at us. It is hard to focus on anything else. , it affects your work. It affects your romantic life. It affects your family life. When you’re not getting along with people that are important to you, and things need to end.

[00:23:45] Diamonde: this has been healing too. This conversation with you and listening to your podcast has been super healing, so thank you.

[00:23:52] Nina: I’m so glad we met. I know we’ll see each other now online , and I’m gonna come to one of those viewing parties. But I like the idea of it being with friends. That’s such a good idea, instead of me just sitting at my computer alone.

[00:24:03] Diamonde: yes. Let’s do it. Thank you so much, Nina. I appreciate you.

[00:24:06] Nina: Diamonde. Thank you so much for coming. Listeners, you can find Diamonde a lot of places, but let’s start on Instagram. She is under the real Diamonde, but she spells her name with an E on the end. So it’s the real Diamonde with an E on the end. That is a great place to see information on the documentary and where you could find it.

And in the show notes, which I don’t say enough, you can always find it. ninabadzin.com, N I N A. B A D Z I N.com and I have show notes for every single episode. And so for example, in this episode, I will have the link to where you could find the documentary and sign up to see it. I love Diamonde’s idea of seeing it with a group of friends so that it’s a discussion topic.

And it’s a great time to remind you that if you have been enjoying this podcast, it is always helpful when people are. Interested in friendship topics if they see that this podcast, has lots of other people who enjoy it. So if you could take the time to go to Apple or do it on Spotify, I don’t know if you can do it on the other platforms to be honest, but I do know you can do it on Apple and Spotify and you can give stars and write a review and just helps a ton. So I thank you ahead of time for that. And if you wanna discuss some more friendship topics in detail, you can find me on my newsletter at Substack and that’s at dearnina.substack.com.

All right, you know what I’m going to say If you’ve been listening to this show for a long time, I even said it already once in this episode, and that is when our friendships are going well, we are happier all around. Have a great week. Bye.