Have you ever found yourself in a situation where you simply can’t connect with someone trying to become better friends with you? Or, have you ever needed to “downgrade” a longstanding friendship? Letting down another person is never easy!
Join me as I sit down with Ruchi Koval, a renowned author, motivational speaker, and relationship coach, to discuss how to navigate these types of conversations with kindness and grace.
Ruchi also shares some hard truths that might require a mindset shift about making room for other people and not always protecting our time as the number one goal in life (despite the internet always teaching us the opposite of that).
Meet Ruchi Koval
Ruchi is a motivational speaker and relationship coach who has inspired personal transformation in thousands of people. She’s the co-founder and Associate Director of Congregation JFX, an innovative community in Cleveland, Ohio. She has been a Jewish educator for two decades, leading self-development groups for adults and teens, and mentoring educators around the world. She’s the author of two books, (she’s also working on a third!) and a mother of seven and a grandmother. And she is a trip leader for Momentum, inspiring hundreds of women on their journeys in Israel.
I especially loved Ruchi’s second book, Soul Construction: Shape Your Character Using 8 Steps From the Timeless Jewish Practice of Mussar. We spend some time on Mussar principles in the episode.
Find Ruchi on Instagram and on her website.
FIND EPISODE #73 ANYWHERE YOU LIKE TO LISTEN TO PODCASTS!
First, THE LETTER:
Dear Nina,
Many of my friends are also listeners of your show and we would love to hear an episode on ways to implement some of the boundaries you’ve discussed in previous episodes. For example, what are actual phrases you can use in difficult conversations, such as: feeling like you no longer have anything in common with a once close friend who you do not wish to hang out with frequently anymore. Or, if you like to chat with woman in a class you’re taking but they mistake your friendliness for wanting to be even closer friends outside of class and you aren’t vibing with them like that or you genuinely don’t have time for more friends.
It’s obviously not socially appropriate to outright say, “I’d rather not give you my number. I don’t want you to text me because I’m not interested in doing anything with you in the future. Let’s just stick to being friendly class buddies,” – because yikes- that sounds brutal!
I know your previous advice has offered the make an excuse type of answers or to keep creating soft distance so the other person can get the hint—but many female personalities require an actual answer. There are certain personalities you have to be assertive with because they are steadfast in their repeated friendship attempts— whether wanting to remain close friends instead of being demoted to an acquaintance or dogged in wanting to initiate a friendship you are not interested in.
What are some phrases listeners can use as conversation blueprints when we need to be honest and assertive in the situation, but do it delicately and with heart?
Boundary blueprints, please & thank you!
Kaya
Highlights from my conversation with Ruchi. Ruchi offers some great “scripts” and exceptional number of gems.
Nina: I am so grateful to you for coming to help me out today. You’re really the first person I thought of, we’ve known each other through the years and you’re just so wise. And I know you’re so busy teaching and writing and traveling across the world, but you made time for me and for my listeners.
I received this letter and I felt kind of personally called out.
Ruchi: I think the person who’s writing this is also struggling with their own authenticity, not wanting to constantly lie. But yeah, when I originally read this letter, I did get a bit of a pit in my stomach. This is a toughie and it happens all the time.
So thank you for having me. I’m very thrilled to be here. As you mentioned, I’m a Jewish educator. And so I look at every situation, or at least I try to look at every situation, through the lens of Jewish values and of Jewish ethics and particularly the study of Mussar, as you mentioned, which my book is about. It’s basically about studying our own character traits and trying to become better people through analysis and improvement of our own character traits.
Nina: And I want to interject and say, you do not need to be Jewish to benefit from these lessons. I mean, they’re really things that every single human being, any kind of religious background, or no religious background, could benefit because we are all, most of us, trying to not be jerks. I mean, that’s what the letter writer is saying. I really don’t want to be friends with this person, but I don’t want to be jerk about it
Ruchi: Yeah, and I totally agree, this wisdom is for anybody. So when I was trying to think about this question, a number of character traits or values came to mind that are at play here. The first one is kindness. Because we want to be kind to other people, but by the same token, we don’t have time to be kind to everybody all the time. And the kindness has to work for us as well. The other value that came up for me when I was thinking about it was the value of honesty because we do obviously value honesty, but by the same token, another value that comes to play is the value of promoting peace. We don’t want to hurt other people with our honesty. So sometimes, the wisdom of Mussar will teach us that it is better to actually edit your truthfulness for the sake of peace. So, these are some of the values that floated to the surface when I was sort of analyzing how I would handle a situation like that.
The first thing I think I would do, was to ask myself, is this an opportunity for kindness. Meaning, is this a person who’s lonely? Is this a person who’s new to town? Is this a person who doesn’t have very many friends? And if so, the same way I might give a charitable contribution for a cause for the needy, maybe this could be viewed not as a friendship opportunity for me necessarily.
Meaning maybe it doesn’t fill my tank in that way, but maybe that’s not what this opportunity is about. Maybe it’s about doing an act of kindness for another person. And I think sometimes we get overwhelmed because we think to ourselves, oh gosh, I don’t have time to be friends with this person. Like, we’re sort of envisioning weekly get togethers . . . It doesn’t have to be that. We could go out for coffee once and I could say to myself, you know what, I’m gonna give this person two hours of my day. And this is my act of kindness.
Now, of course it has to be done mindfully, because nobody wants to feel like the object of someone else’s pity. So it has to be done with a certain degree of genuineness, but it could be that this is an opportunity to do a good deed for somebody who needs it. And I don’t have to commit to doing things all the time. I could commit to one thing and then see. The person might not take it to the next level. I mean, they might, but they might not.
. . . In addition to that is a bit of a mindset shift. Maybe I’m not doing this to fill my friendship tank. This is not what I need right now, but this is something that I’m doing to fill another person’s tank and to look at it as a short term investment, a short term commitment, instead of getting overwhelmed. Sometimes we spin out of control and tell ourselves if I do this, then this is going to happen. And we sort of create this whole mountain of maybes. . .
Nina: That’s an important point and it really cannot be overstated that having coffee with someone, one dinner, one protein shake after a workout class, does not mean you’re inviting them to your 50-year-old birthday party.
Ruchi: Exactly. So that’s one thing, as far as the degree of honesty that you want to interject into this new relationship. I think it really depends on the other person. And since, in this scenario, this is not a person you know very well, so you don’t really necessarily have a good sense of how they’re going to take your honesty or lack thereof. When it’s somebody that you know very well, you could say to yourself, look, if I say this, they’re going to take the hint. Or if I’m honest, they’ll understand. But you know, this is somebody you don’t know. So you don’t know can they handle my honesty?
But this is where the values of truth and peace sort of come to war with one another. The idea, from my approach, is that peace should always come before, not always, but usually come before truth, so that if you’re not sure if another person can handle your truth, then it’s much better to fudge the truth for the sake of peace.
So I would say, oh my gosh, I’ve got so much going on right now. I’m so busy. And you know what, that doesn’t even necessarily have to be a lie. You know, we are busy, we’re all busy. We’re busy with other things, sort of in parenthesis is, well, if it were my bestie, I would make time. But that doesn’t mean you’re not busy. And it could even be a small degree of honesty. So the writer was looking for a specific word or phrase. I wonder if a person could even say, you know what, I’ve got so much in my life right now. I do not have the bandwidth for this.
I’m so sorry. You seem like a lovely person, but I’m just so overwhelmed. Make it about you. And that’s sort of telling them that they’re not a priority without telling them that they’re not a priority. They don’t have to know that if it were somebody else, you would shoehorn them into your life.
I don’t see how somebody could misunderstand that.
Nina: That’s pretty direct. I think it’s direct in a completely non-personal way. It would be hard to say for a lot of people. It probably would be hard for me to say, but I think I could. And hopefully for Kaya, who wrote the letter, and her friends who are looking for a blueprint, it is somewhere between that really direct thing that they realize they can’t say, which is, I am not interested. Like you just can’t say that. I think we both agree. And she knew that in the letter.
Ruchi: And I don’t really think you have to lead with that. You know what? You could start out by being like, okay, this Saturday night is crazy. Oh my gosh, I’m traveling this week. And then they’re already sort of getting the sense that your life is a bit overwhelming, so you don’t have to start out at the first request by saying, I’m too overwhelmed to allow you into my life right now. A lot of people are not that tone deaf. I know for me if somebody starts making excuses, eventually I’ll be like, yeah, I just don’t think they’re into it. And I’ll feel embarrassed and uncomfortable, and I’ll stop asking. So it’s true. Some people are not going to take the hint, in which case this might be a plan B. I’m not saying that this would be like a plan a to be that direct. . .
Nina: Kaya brought up another type of scenario, and that is you have a friend already, and you’re kind of ready to bring that friendship down a level. She called it demote. I probably have used that language in other episodes because my point on that was probably, we don’t need to end every connection. It’s not necessary to sever every bridge. Sometimes we just make the friendship come down a level and more times than that, that’s a mutual thing. If the chemistry’s not there anymore, as much, sometimes that’s on both sides. That’s why it feels that way.
But Kaya again is bringing up, well, what if it isn’t? What if the person’s like, why are we not talking? This is what I’m picturing is she’s getting texts from someone, I never hear from you. We don’t talk as much anymore. Why are we not hanging out? Do you feel that a situation like that, where that person has been a closer friend, deserves a more honest answer?
Ruchi: So the answer is I do. I do think that person deserves your honesty because in this case, fudging the truth for the sake of peace will not bring peace. It will bring more confusion and more hurt. There was a relationship there. And so that person deserves a different degree of honesty from you. Now I have to say, I tell this to my kids all the time because my older kids are all in their twenties. I say most of being an adult is doing awkward things and pretending they’re not awkward. And this is part of what I was going to say about the previous scenario. Feelings will be hurt and you can’t always prevent that. That’s not real life. We want to be as kind as we can. We want to be as truthful as we need to be. We want to pursue peace as much as we’re able, but the bottom line is— you know, I always say this— There are relationships in which nobody ever gets hurt. Those people are called acquaintances.
Because we don’t really care that much about each other. What you do is basically inconsequential. I’ll bump into you at an affair. I’ll be like, oh my G-d, it’s nice to see you, blah, blah, blah. We should get together. And then we don’t, and it’s fine, but in relationships where people actually care about each other, feelings will get hurt because we have expectations and we have disappointments and we have connections and we care about that person. So that person matters to us. So to sort of go about this with the goal of, but I don’t want to hurt any feelings, is unrealistic. We want to mitigate hurt feelings, but avoidance entirely is not real life.
Nina: I know why I struggle with this. I’m such a pleaser. And I probably represent a lot of my listeners. And I think sometimes I’m putting a value in the wrong place of, yes, not hurting feelings, but also I don’t want anyone to be mad at me. I don’t want anyone to not like me. And I’m aware of that. I mean, I am really aware of that. I will go through probably years of lacking of a boundary so that I don’t hurt feelings, so that someone’s not mad at me. So it’s equally about the other person as it is about my own worry of being talked about or that I disappointed someone, and I wasn’t as nice as I made myself out to be.
Ruchi: The other piece is that if somebody is mad at you, that doesn’t necessarily mean you weren’t nice enough. It means they’re mad at you. So if we need to have that conversation with a friend in terms of the demotion, so to speak, right. If we’re looking for phrases to use, and I completely agree, this is a very difficult conversation to have, and it will be awkward and it will be uncomfortable and feelings will be hurt. Okay. But I would say something like this, I know that we had such a beautiful connection and such a beautiful friendship, and I just sort of feel like, and I really hope that I’m not hurting you because that is not my intent at all. In fact, the only reason I’m being honest with you is because I care about you and I’m not gonna lie to you. I just feel like over the years, we’ve sort of gone our separate ways and I don’t feel like we have that connection anymore. And so, I mean, tell me how you feel. Tell me how you see it. Do you feel that as well? Because sometimes friendships just change over the years and maybe that’s okay.
Nina: Oh, that was good. I do think it would be hard. And I want you to know that I’m sweating a little bit, even thinking about this conversation.
Ruchi: Me too. That’s why we almost need a script.
Nina: Now let’s take this one step further. What if the person says, well, I would like to work on it. I agree with you. We haven’t been spending as much time together and I think we should make the friendship a priority. That’s where I wonder if Kaya is feeling stuck. Let’s say the other person is more interested in wanting to get back on track or get closer again.
Ruchi: I think a person also has to ask themselves, how much of a toll is the relationship actually taking on me? Meaning if a relationship is unhealthy or hurtful, I think that’s very different. If I’m just not in the mood anymore, you could ask yourself, what is this really going to take out of me–an hour a month? So what happens if I invest an hour a month? Maybe emotionally, I can let myself off the hook on this relationship, but if this person still wants to hang out, how much do I dislike it? I think there is a range, there are relationships that are bad for me. And then there are relationships that are just mildly inconvenient. If the other person really wants to work on it and it’s not taking that big of a toll on you again, maybe this is just an opportunity for kindness. . .
Nina: This is hard stuff. I think one of the most important things you’ve said, and you say a lot of important things, is just this acknowledgement that feelings do get hurt when you’re in relationships with people.
Ruchi: If you would think about anybody in your life who actually matters to you, chances are that person has hurt your feelings at least once.
Nina: The main thing we’re talking about here is boundaries. That’s what Kaya is looking for. And I think we’re taking it a step beyond her letter, which is, there are boundaries that are important and necessary. And then there’s also kindness and just finding a way to balance those two things is hard, which is why I probably happened to have a not great answer to it in previous episodes, because I think I’ve been in denial of the fact that sometimes feelings do get hurt.
Ruchi: If the goal is avoidance of that, then a lot of important things are not going to happen.
Nina: I wanted to bring up something you said in your book, which I think is really relevant here to this balance that we’re trying to strike between honesty, the value of being honest, but also kindness and peace. You say that people are put into our lives for a reason, those aren’t your exact words. That’s what you were talking about in the chapter, it was on page 46. And then your exact words were: “Somehow their souls and ours needed to intersect. We are the exact friend acquaintances or relatives whom they need in their lives for their soul’s journeys. And they are the exact people whom our souls need, at least for a short time in our journey as well.”
Ruchi: Yeah. I literally just taught that this morning in a class.
Nina: It’s very relevant because again, the title of this episode’s going to be, something along the lines of, when the desire for friendship is not equal, which works both in the new friend concept and in the someone wants to demote or an already close friend concept. That’s very hard when the desire isn’t equal, but that mindset of, maybe this person is here to teach us something or maybe it’s that we are there to teach them something– it is just about giving, but within reason. I wrote after that in my own notes, but–boundaries, because I know that’s what Kaya and gang are asking for. They’re asking to preserve their own boundaries. I know that there has to be some space to not feel like you have to give all your time to other people.
Ruchi: Yes, so it’s very interesting. Judaism generally advocates to give 10% of what you have away to others. And that’s recommended in terms of income. There is a concept of giving 10% of one’s income to charity. And it’s also understood in terms of time, giving 10% of your time back to the community or to the universe. So, I feel like with friendships, like a lot of times we look at friendships in terms of what fills us up. Like I will surround myself with the people that I need in my life who serve a purpose for me. I’m not saying that in a mercenary way. I’m just saying that’s typically what we do. My friends are the people that I enjoy being with that I love.
What if 10% of our friend time could be a donation for the greater good. Because there are times in my life where I’ve been needy of friendship and you shared a time in your life where you were needy of friendship. What if somebody was just nice to us because we were needy, not making us feel like a pity project. But just giving us time because we needed time. So maybe again, it’s just like a little bit of a mind shift. Maybe this person is in my life so that I can become a generous human being and that I could be a giver. And there were people who were nice to me when I was needy. And so maybe I’m just paying it forward. I’ll be nice to someone else who’s needy.
Sometimes there are people who are socially awkward, they don’t really have a lot of friends and they just need a friendly face. You know, clearly if they’re going to monopolize all our time or our mental energy, that would certainly be a place for boundaries. But I think in some cases, boundaries have a large space in some people’s lives where it’s always about boundaries. So again, we’re looking for sort of a nuanced and balanced approach to these things. I can be nice to that person in a way that still works for me in a way that doesn’t take over my life.
The Wisdom of Mussar
There was so much more so I urge you to listen to the episode. And if you’re curious about the study of Mussar, the ancient Jewish way of understanding how to improve our characters, you will find Ruchi’s book, Soul Construction a gentle and helpful way to begin—whether you’re Jewish or not!
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