[00:00:04] Nina: Hello, happy end of 2024. You are listening to Dear Nina, Conversations About Friendship. I’m Nina Badzin, your host. If this is your first time here, I’m so happy to have you here. I do think I’ve got some new listeners in the past few months. I don’t know if it’s through social media. Hopefully it’s through word of mouth, which is really the best way podcast to grow.

I’ve actually been writing about friendships since 2014. That’s a long time. Podcasting since 2021. Learned a lot along the way about friendship, of course, and about podcasting as it happens. I do this podcast to help other people and myself. It’s for you and for me to be a better friend and to have better friends.

Those are really the two main purposes of the podcast. And I’ve been hearing from so many people, especially in the Facebook group that tends to be where I hear from people more personally. That’s a Dear Nina: The Group. Anybody is welcome. There’s no membership that you need to have. There’ll be a question when you look up dear Nina, the group that’s literally what it’s called. I will ask you on there how you found this group and whether you agree to a couple of the group rules, which are not extensive, they’re similar to any rules of conduct you would have in any Facebook group.

Anyway, it’s on there that I tend to hear how episodes of help people sometimes in the reviews on Apple podcasts I hear that. And it’s just satisfying. What can I say? I work hard on the podcast and it’s satisfying to hear when people find it useful. For today’s final episode of 2024, I’m actually replaying what was the number one episode this year.

As I heard from Spotify, that’s who breaks down the numbers way more at the end of the year for you. This episode was so significantly high in my downloads that I suspect it was shared through some other influencer that I don’t even know. And that makes me wonder if my regular listeners didn’t necessarily all catch it. And there’s been a lot of new listeners. It’s an episode that released in June and it was with Anna Goldfarb, who wrote Modern Friendship, excellent book about friendship. The full title is Modern Friendship, How to Nurture Our Most Valued Connections. The title of the original episode, and maybe this is part of also why it did so wildly amazing, was called the 14 Day Friendship Mindset Cleanse.

And it came from a chapter of Anna’s book. So that is what the episode’s about. It is about Anna’s idea of how to think about your friendships, give yourself a mindset change for how you might be approaching these extremely important relationships in our lives.

People just love Anna,

and I understand why she’s so approachable. She, is a major writer about friendship. She has had huge pieces in the New York Times, Vox, and other big outlets, and her book is doing so great. It has a fabulous cover. I was so excited when it came out. Anna is so supportive of the podcast.

So supportive of me. We are able to have a friendship that’s sort of like colleagues. , I would say it started like colleagues. Cause she writes about friendship. I write about friendship and instead of going to a place of competition, which can happen when you are in the same field as somebody, we appreciate the different ways we each come at things.

We come to a lot of the same conclusions, because if you’re trying to have healthy friendships, you’re not going to have wildly different ideas how to do that. There are some pretty basic and practical ways, but I’m mostly doing this through the podcast and my newsletter. she also has a newsletter, which will be linked in the show notes as will, mine.

And she does it more through writing in major, uh, And of course, especially with her book. We voice memo a lot. We’ve talked on the phone a bunch of times we’ve never met in person because she is in Philadelphia and I’m in Minneapolis, but how wonderful to be in sort of a concentric circle of information in the same field as somebody, and to have it be collaborative. So I hope you enjoy the very practical tips. I hope you enjoy the camaraderie between the two of us. I genuinely want to wish everybody a fantastic end of the year. My hope for you is that your friendships should be fulfilling, that you have a chance to think through what has worked and what hasn’t in your social life, that this podcast has helped you do that.

We’ll continue to work together in 2025 to make our friendships the best they can be and so that we ourselves can be the best friends we can be and have the best friends possible.

Life is short and it is better when we are surrounded by people who fill our cup and whose cup we also work to fill. I will see you with a brand new episode at the beginning of 2025.

So keep in touch on the newsletter.

Conversations about friendship on Substack. Keep in touch on Instagram at dear Nina friendship, or join me on the Facebook group at dear Nina, the group. Alright here is the wonderful Anna Goldbarb.

Hi, Anna. Welcome back.

[00:05:05] Anna: welcome. Thank, thank you for having me. I’m like, welcome to your own podcast. Thank you for having me. I’m happy to be here.

[00:05:10] Nina: this is going to be so much fun. It’s your second visit, And we should say that since your visit, I think it’s important for listeners to know that we’ve actually become friends.

[00:05:19] Anna: Yeah. It’s been delightful and enjoyable and natural and organic, I love having you as my friend.

[00:05:26] Nina: It’s all the things that we both give a lot of advice about. We obviously have a lot in common. And, uh, In our career interests and come at it from different backgrounds, different angles, but we land in a lot of the same places about how to make friends, how to keep friends. And before we get to the actual details of the friendship cleanse from your book that I’m so excited to talk about, can you just in your own words, cause I could do it in my words, but I’d love to hear it in your words. a little bit about your book, Modern Friendship

[00:05:53] Anna: this is a book for anyone who feels like they have a hundred friends and zero friends and both things feel true. I wanted to look into why friendships feel so murky And what I learned was that it’s historically a precarious time for friendships. This is new. New forces are pulling our friendships to the brink. And so it’s not your imagination. I wanted to dissect it of what’s going on now. what is it about now that makes our friendships feel so easy to shed.

So my book explains why that is the case and how to use the information to have more enduring friendships. once you know why they break apart so easily, then you can earthquake proof your favorite friendships.

[00:06:39] Nina: That’s such a great pitch for the book. Something I see a lot People are very quick and doesn’t seem like it was always the case to cut people off. There’s this whole cut off culture. It feels very dramatic. people are really proud about it.

[00:06:52] Anna: it’s sort of intermingling with self care of getting rid of toxic people and I don’t believe people are toxic. I think behaviors are toxic, but behaviors can change. I just think it’s this fashionable thing to get rid of these toxic people in your life when the reality is people are so much more complicated but what drives us is simple people are complicated.

But what drives us is very simple. it’s more about understanding how humans work and realizing how does my friend prioritize their life? Where do I fit in? You know, one thing that I learned writing this book was that there’s two kinds of friendships.

There’s memorial friendships that are high on affection, but low in frequency of contact and active friendships that are high on communication. And they’re based on passions and hobbies usually. So when you learn that there’s two different kinds of friendships, Then all of a sudden things start to make sense, things that might feel toxic, or I haven’t heard back from this friend.

I texted her. I’m not getting what I need. It’s like, well, are you confusing an active friendship for a memorial one? Because the expectations are different for those two. this broad umbrella of these behaviors, ghosting, flaking, bailing, and there’s not much examination of why is this happening? how compelling was the invitation that you’re extending to your friends that they would feel okay bailing on you? did you explain why the plans were important.

Did you make a case of what’s in it for your friend? did you properly extend these invitations in a way that people could say yes to? that’s what I learned writing my book, is a lot of us use strategies that are outdated. We use strategies we learned on the playground. hey, you want to get together some time and when you’re eight years old with no money and nowhere to be and a bike, like nothing else.

It’s like that, that’s enough information to say yes to when you’re a kid, but when you’re a busy adult, that’s not enough information to say yes to. It creates a lot of confusion and where there’s confusion and uncertainty that leads to anxiety.

[00:08:57] Nina: I love your point about expectations as you make so many good points and also about outdated modes of trying to connect with your friends. The expectation one, I’m going to go back to our friendship, which I didn’t mean to skip over so quickly, actually meant to say more about it. So we’re going to do it here.

Such a good example. I mean, we’re newer friends. but we’ve talked a lot and deeply for the short amount of time we’ve known each other, but there’s things we don’t know. I mean, there’s just so many different kinds of friends and like a newer friend should have different expectations.

I love this term Memorial friend. That’s not one I’ve used before.

[00:09:28] Anna: That was from, um, Dr. William Rollins. I was reading one of his textbooks about friendships I think he uses, memorial friends and lifestyle friends. I use active, he is memorial. And I was like, Oh, I get what you’re saying. this is someone from my past where we don’t have a strong, compelling reason to be in touch frequently.

[00:09:49] Nina: But it still has meaning and memories that carry important weight and you would expect to hear back It doesn’t have that same urgency because it’s not about tonight’s plans or next week’s plans because you might not even live in the same place or you might. I have friends like that for sure.

And I’m so grateful for the communication we have, and it doesn’t need to be constant. Like I’ve talked to you significantly more in the past six months than I’ve probably talked to people I’ve known for 40 some years,

Okay. Enough about us. The reason I wanted to also bring up your thoughts on this cutoff culture is people could mistake the idea of a cleanse for a cutoff and that isn’t what you’re suggesting at all, but the words.

Could get confused. It’s like a mindset cleanse is what I would think of it as. we’re going to go through all 14 of them, not in extensive detail, cause we’ll be here forever, but just to give people an idea.

what is this 14 day friendship cleanse?

[00:10:43] Anna: Well, my idea was to synthesize and distill the lessons of the book, you know, I deep dove into why people want to be friends with us and why we wouldn’t be friends with other people. So what do we do with these lessons that we’ve learned? And I wanted to do an approachable program, low lift.

It’s not going to be anything out of anyone’s comfort zone. That’s the best. mark of authenticity I can give is listen, like I have a cat and I like playing video games. So for me to to commit to anything, it’s gotta be achievable. I sort of liken it to having a shopping list when you go food shopping, my hope with the cleanse is that it’ll give people direction.

And it’ll give people some guidance and direction of here’s what you need to do to strengthen these friendships that you care about so much. And then you’re just chilling. Then you . It settled.

[00:11:35] Nina: So step one was start fresh. You said there’s no bitterness, no remorse, no judgment, even just as some thoughts and behaviors in your past relationships no longer work for you. These items don’t work for you either. So they can go and you’re suggesting organizing a couple of things in your house, like maybe getting rid of a couple items to trigger the mindset that that is how you’re going to approach these relationships.

It’s even though, again, that kind of sounds like a cutoff. It’s not what you’re saying.

[00:12:02] Anna: like you said, it’s just a mindset and a commitment. Let me look at my life today. Let me look at those jeans that I bought seven years ago. Do I really enjoy wearing them? It could be kind of freeing to let that go, right? So it’s more tapping into the freedom of it, of letting go of some things.

And I think that that step was inspired by the advice I give in the book of we’re talking about your friendships today. I think a lot of people compare their friendships to what they were in high school or college, and they feel really negatively about their social life today. So I want to kind of shake you a little bit gently, a gentle shake, , and just say, like, let’s talk, let’s talk about you today. Let’s, let’s look at you now.

[00:12:40] Nina: maybe thank those jeans for the good years that they put in. It’s not like I hate these jeans. those genes got me through a lot of things, but I think of that way, sometimes more recategorizing friends a little bit. Everything doesn’t have to be with them. So much anger and bitterness,

[00:12:53] Anna: it’s really about acceptance.

[00:12:55] Nina: So number two is accounting. It’s another, one of your terms that I really enjoyed the bathtub friend versus the jacuzzi friend versus the pool friend. Can you explain that? It’s a brilliant visual.

[00:13:04] Anna: These terms are based off of Robin Dunbar’s findings. He’s a British anthropologist who studied social networks and he found that our social networks appear more in tiers. You have elite tiers that I’ve rebranded. into more water features to show how fluid these relationships are. So we have the bathtub tier, which is for men. It’s just one person. Usually their significant other. And for women, it’s usually two people in their bathtub tier. There are significant other and a best friend.

So that’s interesting. And even of itself at the bathtub, it’s not always the same for men and women. Then you branch out to the jacuzzi tier, which is three to five really close support group friends. the lower tier is the swimming pool, which is the 10 to 15 sympathy group. And I thought that it was a sympathy group.

I don’t know, you’d call them up for happy hour. But the researchers called it sympathy group because it means you’d be bummed if anyone in this tier died. So that’s a little, little goth, But these are the people you’d go on double dates with. You’d house sit for them.

You’d maybe go on a trip or these are the people that get work, people who brighten your life and you share some intimacy with. You’d make a reasonable effort to go to their big milestone event. they’re not quite the intimate inner tier like the jacuzzi, and they’re closer than the next tier, which is your bonfire.

That’s like 50 people. If you’re having a party, like a big 50th party, these are the people you invite. Those are the maybe more far flung connections, cousins, that kind of thing. that’s what our social life should look like.

[00:14:37] Nina: it makes sense. I think most people can recognize that. and people’s numbers may be different, right? But you can recognize this idea that some people are really close to you. It’s a really intimate friendship. And then there’s that next tier and then that next tier, and then it’s kind of like the whole wide world of acquaintances and, cause there’s a difference between an acquaintance and a stranger, of course, but could have a lot of acquaintances. It has to, uh, have different expectations and behaviors that we have towards those people, which is really what the rest of this list is about.

So number three was commitment and that was commitment to showing up. I think this is where a lot of people get tripped up because one of your examples of commitment is Answering communication quickly, remembering birthdays.

[00:15:14] Anna: my advice is to only extend that to a certain few people. It’s overwhelming to do it to too many people. That’s not realistic or sustainable. pick a few people. Pick three people and just be an awesome friend to those three people.

[00:15:29] Nina: I think where a lot of breakdown happens in friendships is right here because some people think they’re in other’s jacuzzi. Usually the bathtub I think is more clear. You kind of know but I think the jacuzzi gets a little fuzzy. So like you think you’re in somebody’s five most special, they’re going to remember your birthday type person.

They’re going to text you back. When that doesn’t happen, you’re like, wait, why are they in mine? It is okay for that to happen, but you have to really, really understand that that’s just how it is that they’re in yours and you’re not in theirs. Are they’re, maybe just not as good at those things and you have to choose to accept it or not,

[00:16:09] Anna: It’s really about adjusting your expectations and synthesizing information that comes in new information because these friendships are dynamic. They change all the time. So if maybe in high school, you had a friend that would celebrate your birthday, that was that was the vibe of your friendship then.

But now 20 years later, you aren’t in each other’s close circles as much. You don’t talk as frequently and it’s time to, to update your expectations of we still have a lot of affection, but we have a kind of friendship where we talk less and now we don’t wish each other well on our birthdays. It doesn’t mean that our affection isn’t there.

It’s just the reality of we only have so much bandwidth a day.

[00:16:47] Nina: Yeah, like maybe you’re getting the Facebook happy birthday, but I’m not gonna track you down on the phone or I’m gonna text you But I’m not gonna make sure to call you not even out of spite. It’s just

[00:16:56] Anna: That’s his reality. I honestly feel like once you know who belongs in your jacuzzi, it’s going to feel like enough. You’re going to feel like so full with love of, I know who my people are. I don’t have to get upset about these far flung relationships that have faded. It’s not going to feel as upsetting because we’re focusing on your life today.

We know people who love you and appreciate you and value you today. And it’s going to feel amazing.

[00:17:24] Nina: Yes, that is what this cleanse is is again focusing on who our friends are today and what we should expect from them and what they should can expect from us.

So number four leads us right into goal setting. you say, hard to know if we’re being successful in our friendship goals without knowing what we’re working towards.

what are some goals that people could make for their friendship?

[00:17:43] Anna: one of my older friends told me for her birthday this year, all she wanted was a slumber party with me. And I thought that

[00:17:50] Nina: so nice.

[00:17:50] Anna: was so flattering. I honestly was, was just so blown away. And I thought that was a wonderful friendship goal of, I would love to ever sleepover party with, with one of my girlfriends this year.

I think that’s achievable. It takes some planning and it takes the risk of vocalizing it, verbalizing it, of I’d love this. Going on a trip with a friend is a great goal. Having a small party. If you’re the kind of person who doesn’t feel comfortable having parties, maybe your goal is I’d love to have a birthday party this year.

I haven’t done that, in many moons. Maybe you want a regular hang. Maybe you want to get together with people who really care about the things you care about and start a little group. Those are all highly achievable things, but very personal too.

[00:18:30] Nina: And just being clear on what do I want, what do I wanna do this month, this year, this week even to grow my friendship, sustain them. And in terms of goal setting with friendships, people have different goals. There’s no right thing, like broader goals. I mean, ’cause the ones we just gave are a little more specific.

But some people are trying to make new friends, some people are trying to just appreciate the friends they have. some of these other, day-to-day cleanse ideas, really speak to that.

Number five was. Diligence. I think this is a great one for that. Putting things on the calendar, going a step further from the goal setting, which was number four.

So number five, actually following up, I would say is what that is, is following up with the things you wanted to sleep over the slumber party. Let’s actually put that on the calendar.

[00:19:09] Anna: and giving as much information as possible, because we live in a world where people need information to say yes and keep the plans. instead of saying, let’s get together this week, let’s get together Tuesday, house 6, let’s go to the Thai place near your house. you in? Yes or no, you in?

Just making it easy for people to say yes. and even better is to say why you want to get dinner. I want to hear about your recent vacation. I want to hear about your job. I want to talk to you about what your plans are for the holidays. Let’s get together. And that’ll make it easier for people to say yes to your invitations.

[00:19:40] Nina: Okay. So the next was number six, desire to reach out to an acquaintance. I agree with your best way to do this. How would you do it with an acquaintance? I loved how you said this.

[00:19:49] Anna: So for desire. I recommend reaching out to someone you’d like to get to know better and saying, Hey, you’ve been on my mind. Any interest in joining me for X in order to Y? So that could look like, do you want to grab ramen so I can hear about your new job? Do you want to go to the park so I can hear what podcasts you’ve been loving and what TV shows you’ve been watching?

Something to show that this is what I want to talk about when we’re spending time together.

[00:20:14] Nina: I’ve had people do this with me and I’ve done it too. I don’t know that I’ve always been specific about what we’re going to talk about, but I’ve been very clear and they have too about, let’s take this to the next level. I’ve even had a friend actually say that kind of in a nice, cute, joking way.

She texted me. It’s like, are you ready to take this friendship to the next level? We had just been, Very friendly acquaintances, you know, not, not just like, Oh, barely saying hi. Like if we ran into each other, we would stop and talk for 30 minutes kind of thing. And it just became very clear. And I think you and I basically in our own way did that too.

instead of just texting two sentences here and there, we would, do the voice memos, which I love, but then we would actually speak on the phone, in real time, which is really more efficient. going to the next level takes an act of some kind.

[00:20:55] Anna: Yeah, it does. And it takes initiative to say, Hey, I’d like to see you, I’d like to spend time together. what are you interested in talking about? What am I interested in talking about? Where’s the overlap? Let’s make it happen.

[00:21:06] Nina: the next one was, automation.

I do this. I’m curious if you do this. Automation making some of your time together with friends happen without having to constantly schedule it. So what would be an example for you?

[00:21:18] Anna: Yeah, I have a recurring date with my friend, Ali. Every Friday we try to get together and write at a cafe near her house, near my house. We alternate and just have something that you both want to do regularly. That’s literally the key. Do that.

[00:21:34] Nina: that’s what I had to call my friend, Cym. It’s not that we’ve ever spoken the words out loud, but we have this understanding that we’re going to try to walk on Saturdays, I have never said, let’s walk every Saturday.

She has another friend that she also walks with on Saturdays and she kind of fits us both in separately, which is great, but we try to make it happen as much as possible. And when we don’t, there’s an acknowledgement like, oh, we didn’t do our walk. it’s automated basically. Yeah. Absolutely.

love it. And people generally know they can find me for a walk on on Saturday.

I have other friends in the neighborhood I try to walk with in the afternoon. And we live near each other. So I mean, you do what you can location wise. I like that you and Allie switch locations. Like it shouldn’t only be convenient for one person.

[00:22:10] Anna: Yeah, I try to be really mindful of that. And I check in a lot are you sure you’re okay coming down here? Do you want to switch it up? Do you want to go somewhere between us? I really encourage to people to use these tactics with everyone, but especially your jacuzzi friends.

these are the ones that are the Stars of the show, you make them feel like you are going to be their best friend ever. You’re going to put effort in, you’re going to focus on them. You’re going to turn your phone off when you’re with them and just be above and beyond to just a few people.

[00:22:41] Nina: and that’s like I think where the word cleanse comes in also is like you can’t be that for everybody. It’s just impossible. You would spend your whole life, making sure you’re a good enough friend, which would be very hard to be to more than a handful of people.

[00:22:54] Anna: Yeah. And it makes you feel like you’re dropping the ball. If you have the expectation of yourself to have a huge capacity for doing this, with endless people, you’re going to feel like your efforts aren’t, being reciprocated in the way that you would hope.

[00:23:08] Nina: So the next one was delight, which again is another one we can’t do for everyone. showing delight to your friends. What would be a way to do that?

[00:23:16] Anna: , ever since I wrote a book on friendship, I’ve started telling my jacuzzi friends that I love them way more. I went from never saying, I love you to now I’m so effusive. I think friends want to hear that from us more. It makes them feel secure in your friendship. When you tell your close friends that you love them. You don’t want them to second guess ever. that’s delight to me is telling your friend.

I love you. I hope you’re having a great day. I’m thinking about you. I love being your friend. You’re so fun to hang out with. I love talking to you. doesn’t that feel so good to hear that?

[00:23:47] Nina: That’s very sweet. You are good at that. I mean, we don’t tell each other that we love each other. We’re not at

[00:23:52] Anna: We’re not there

[00:23:52] Nina: but you do get, you, you do give compliments I’ve noticed that just on the receiving end of being your friend.

That’s definitely something I could work on is being more verbally affectionate. I think I demonstrate my friendship a lot of ways. But not always with words, which is ironic as a as a

[00:24:07] Anna: I know it. Not everyone’s comfortable doing it. if you didn’t grow up in a household where that was said a lot, it could be really scary. It feels very vulnerable. And I didn’t have it that much in my household. It really was a breakthrough. Not to sound corny, but

[00:24:22] Nina: no, you’re like a step ahead of me. I definitely say things like I appreciate your friendship so much Look, I’ll be verbal that way both in writing and speaking but to even say I love you I have said it but I usually preface it. I’ll be like I’m about to say something really intimate. I’m so weird.

[00:24:39] Anna: Nina, maybe that’s your homework. You should just text a friend. I love you. It just all caps and

heart. It feels so good. It’s like, why wouldn’t we want our friends to feel Good about that.

[00:24:49] Nina: It leads us into the next word, which is number nine is vulnerability, but that’s not exactly what you’re talking about in this section, but it, you know, kind of works as the segue word here. And that was to reach out to someone you feel out of the loop with. What I would say here is, you do a good job of saying, without blame, I, you didn’t use that expression, but that’s what I take from that section of your list is, this isn’t about, oh, she didn’t call me back that one time, and so now I guess I’m going to be the one, once again, to reach out, it’s not that. You feel out of the loop with someone for whatever reason, and you’re just, touching base.

[00:25:20] Anna: Catch me up. Like I’ve been thinking about you catch me up. What’s been going on with you. I think people, it makes them feel really good to hear that.

[00:25:26] Nina: that’s an easy quick one anybody in this 14 day day 9 reaching out to someone like that I’m gonna move us to number 10 I love this kind of assignment You called it taking bids and that’s asking for ideas of what to watch. It’s another way to touch base with someone either you’re in close touch with or not as in close touch with Just to say like hey, what are you watching anything good?

What are you reading that kind of thing? You

[00:25:47] Anna: And it makes people feel good to have their advice sought out. this is a successful strategy too, because then you have something to talk about and reconnect with in the future. Oh, I watched what we do in the shadows. I loved it. thanks for recommending it. And then you feel closer to your friend.

[00:26:03] Nina: I have a friend who Suggested a court of thorns, you know, have you seen that series everywhere that and it’s not the kind of thing I probably would normally pick up but it’s not not the kind of thing I would pick up So I was like fine and I like to be in the know on stuff I’m just like that of like if everybody’s reading something I have to know what’s up. It’s five books. And so I am constantly texting her. We’re definitely like even more in touch than we were before.

[00:26:25] Anna: That’s how it goes. And it’s just stating plain, the obvious of this is something to talk about. Something you both are excited about and can share. and grow together. then it creates opportunities. Oh, we should watch the special on Netflix. It was really funny.

Oh, do you want to go with the comics coming to town? you can just build your friendship by taking these low lift bids.

[00:26:47] Nina: I like that term low lift. So number 11 was favors. This might be slightly higher lift. asking your friend for a favor. This is a huge one on TikTok, by the way. Somebody, I don’t know who it was, did a TikTok kind of ranting about a friend who had asked for a favor, and then other people, like, piled on to be like, hey, you should be willing to do that for a friend.

I think maybe the person wanted to be paid for it.

[00:27:07] Anna: I was thinking of asking a favor in service of making your friendship deeper. I know that you love whiskeys. I’m new at whiskey. Can you like recommend one to try? Can you point me in a direction? what whiskey YouTubers do you like? that’s the kind of favor I’m thinking of, of Oh, I love that you run.

I want to get into running. , what things do you recommend for me to start? You’re showing your friends I’m interested in your world. I’m interested in what you’re interested in. Teach me. I’m open.

[00:27:36] Nina: it has to be something more simple. I like your examples like that is somebody were to ask me and I’ve had people connect me without my permission to friends of theirs about podcasting, for example. So I’ve had people put me on an email, Oh, Hey, my friend, Nina has a podcast. My friend, so and so is looking to start a podcast, go something like that.

And I’m like, that’s cringe

[00:27:55] Anna: Exactly. You don’t want something that’s going to take extreme effort. It’s more just like, I want to know about your world.

[00:28:01] Nina: All right number 12 rekindle this is actually funny because it’s just one of your things but I actually think it’s the spirit of all of them. DO you have a friendship you want to rekindle but with an eye for appreciating the new stage of the friendship. So it’s not necessarily rekindle an old friend that you long let go. I took it more as reestablishing what this friendship is. You don’t have to say those words,

[00:28:23] Anna: there’s a lot of reasons why friendships fade and a lot of them are perfectly reasonable reasons. People move away, people move into different roles in their life. People’s priorities shift, their finances shift. Given the world we live in on social media, we can still see that these people exist and they’re here and they’re living a life and they have their own family and friends.

it’s so easy to reach out to people, but I think people misunderstand the Circumstances around a random reach out. Their expectations might be outdated for this friend that they have a lot of extra time to just catch up, or they’re in a place to catch up. We don’t know anything about them. We don’t know if they’re struggling with their health.

If they’re grieving We just don’t know. So it’s really about being open of how to reach out to people mindfully and keeping the door open and finding a new about. Every friendship needs an about. The about needs to be clear and compelling. So when you’re looking to engage with people, keep that in mind. What can we talk about that’s going to be interesting to them and interesting to me.

[00:29:32] Nina: these are all A cleanse for how to think of all your friendships all the time. And I just love it. It’s like focusing on it for two weeks. You’re like, yep, that was the point. we have just two more 13 was being mindful about venting.

[00:29:43] Anna: It’s all about consent and saying, is this a good time? I’d love to vent for you for five minutes. I don’t need advice. Just an ear. This is such a miscalculation people make because they think that they’re going to get closer to their friend by unloading by sharing their thoughts and feelings, their wrongs. It’s an attempt to gain closeness, but it pushes people away if it feels like you’re dominating their time. So to mindfully vent is a simple, simple, simple strategy to incorporate into your friendship making. And it’s to ask for consent before you vent to make sure the other person even wants to hear it is in a place to hear it. And that they feel respected. you don’t want to disrespect your friends.

[00:30:26] Nina: And finally, day 14 make meaning. And that was about creating rituals, which is kind of connected to automation. but what would be some examples of creating rituals?

[00:30:37] Anna: having a friend diversary, like identifying, we first hung out 12 years ago on this date. Let’s go out for dinner. one of my best friends we give each other holiday presents and we do birthday presents. We have our own rituals of when one of us gets a really great, uh, work achievement, we take the other one out for drinks.

those are all things that cement who we are to each other and why. So that’s what I’m encouraging people to give an eye to of what can we do to make Make our friendship, elevate it, give it clarity, have both people understand what they mean to each other, so that they can relax, they can understand, like, this is my best friend, this is my close friend, there’s no ambiguity here, and we celebrate it. And this is how we choose to celebrate, and we go on a trip every year. Maybe we go try new , Sushi place every month. whatever feels like the right way to honor your friendship.

[00:31:29] Nina: I think something you urged in number 14, but really in all of them, and we’ll conclude with this, said it several times in this interview, but I think it can not be overstated that none of this.

is for 20 people. These are not for the entire swimming pool, the ritual, especially you can’t, everybody who you would invite to, let’s say your 50th birthday party doesn’t necessarily get a gift or an invitation for your 47th birthday dinner. It’s not necessarily about being like, this one’s a better person or this one, it’s just like, who is close to me right now. that’s what I love about your approach it really is without shame. Like I said, without blame, it’s, it’s just kind of matter of fact, this is what is right now. How can we honor those relationships?

[00:32:10] Anna: you’ve summed it up really well and one more thing to say is we already know this we did this when we were younger, but we have lost our way. We have all these dozens, hundreds of new connections that we’ve been juggling and that’s why it feels so insurmountable.

It feels like what is this friendship thing? Why am I struggling with it so much when I had an easier time when I was younger and it’s because your life was more simple when you were younger. You were less things to less people. You could manage these friendships and we learned this already. So my book is hoping to reacquaint people with what they already know is you will be happier if you focus on just a few people and just go above and beyond for them.

[00:32:51] Nina: I said it in the intro and I just want to close with the same thing, which is there are a lot of people out there who struggled to have any friends. I know that there are people who are going to say, well, I don’t even have anyone in the jacuzzi. Maybe they have one friend in the bathtub, but they don’t have the jacuzzi and they certainly don’t have the swimming pool.

I think the message of this book is that’s okay. it’s just about nurturing a couple of really special friendships. and Look, when I talk about going out there to make new friends, I’m not encouraging people to make close friends or best friends.

We start with friends. this is still a nice way to treat friends if you don’t feel like you have close friends. And then you can use a lot of these methods to get closer. feel where there’s reciprocity.

[00:33:27] Anna: Love it. That’s the key. Is you got to start somewhere if you’re comparing the final baked cake and then you have the ingredients. You’re looking at the flour and the eggs. You’re like, well, this isn’t a cake. I’ve had cake before. It’s like well, there’s a process I don’t have to tell you mix up the ingredients.

it’s the same thing. They’re have been accustomed to finished products. That is a very drawn out metaphor.

[00:33:51] Nina: I love

it.

[00:33:51] Anna: you guys know what I mean. You guys know what I mean.

[00:33:53] Nina: Anna, thank you so much for being here. The book is Modern Friendship. It is available everywhere. We’re so excited to have this book out in the world.

[00:34:04] Anna: Thank you for having me Nina I could talk to you all day every day and I’m one day we will meet in person, and we’re just going to not stop hugging

[00:34:11] Nina: It’ll probably be in the East Coast. No one ever comes to Minnesota. It’ll be, unless you come here for a book event,

[00:34:15] Anna: deal deal

[00:34:17] Nina: Amazing.

[00:34:18] Anna: And thank you. And to thank everyone who’s listening, who’s interested in this topic too. Like we’re right here with you and cheers to happier, more empowered friendships in

[00:34:28] Nina: Amen. And I know Anna will agree with my closing. I say it every time. When our friendships are going well, we are happier all around. See you next time.