Nina: [00:00:00] I think you and I both have the thesis that a triangle can work. so many articles, Rebekah, like every episode that came out, every single publication had an article or a video or something that basically said, this is why friendship trios don’t work and every time I want you to know.
I saw that. I thought that is not true. I reject that.
Rebekah: I wholeheartedly agree. Welcome to Dear Nina, conversations about friendship. You are listening to a very special episode. It is episode 1 41. We are talking about. White Lotus all eight episodes.
Nina: We have the benefit of knowing the end. So if you have not watched and you don’t want any spoilers, you might wanna wait to listen to this one. I have my assistant producer, Rebekah Jacobs with me. We were always texting and talking between episodes, and then on the Facebook page, a Dear Nina, the group on Facebook, people were requesting an episode and I felt strongly that Rebekah and I needed to wait until the whole thing was done, and I’m glad we [00:01:00] did.
If you haven’t met Rebekah yet, she was on episode 1 36 where I introduced her to you as the assistant producer, and we talked about your three to five closest friends and how you can get those kind of friends in your life, which is actually pretty apropos of some of the stuff we wanna talk about today. She was also an episode a long time ago, I think it was number 14, but that is crazy if I remember that, about female friendships in books. So again, apropos to today, talking about fictional friendships and what we can take from it and our real friendship. Rebekah, welcome back.
Rebekah: Thank you so much. I’m so excited.
Nina: I love having you on air because you’re always behind the scenes and I feel like the people should hear you and you’re so smart and insightful and everybody who knows you in real life knows that to be true. So I’m sure they enjoy hearing you live too.
Rebekah did a very wonderful assistant producer thing and went through every episode and outlined the parts that were pertinent to the friendships. because of course, if you’re a white Lotus fan, you know that there’s lots of characters,
we have the staff. We have the guests, but we are just going to focus on [00:02:00] Jaclyn , Kate and Laurie. Rebekah, will you take us back to how we meet them, what it’s like when we meet them, and some of the stuff we learn about them along the way?
Rebekah: before we do that, can I ask you why do you think this trio has resonated so much with everyone? Because my friends are talking about it. The newspapers are talking, you know, everyone’s talking about these three women. What is it about their story that you think is hitting a nerve?
Nina: I think people recognize themselves in having a slight dissatisfaction with the way their friendships are going on either side of it. maybe they see themselves in each one, like you’ve heard friends talking about you maybe, or you suspect they’re talking about you.
You are talking about your friend, and you feel okay, have we crossed over from venting to just being judgmental? there’s gossipy and then there’s judgmental with its own other thing. And I think if you’re honest with yourself, most of us have been in both of those positions. We feel we’re being judged, we are judging.
And then there’s genuine concern about your friends and how do you express that? It brought [00:03:00] up a lot of stuff in the whole thing about old friends and growing apart and, and trios, the triangle triggered people. It really
Rebekah: Oh, so much. Uh, we had a, a whole side text conversation where some of my friends absolutely thought three is just the worst number ever. Whereas other thought, no, it’s so great. One person leaves, you have another person to talk to. And I think it’s not necessarily about the number, but who’s in the number?
Because two can be toxic. Four can be toxic, four can be awesome, three can be wonderful, but three can be awful. And I think by the time we’re done, that’s hopefully what helps us understand is it a trio problem? Is it a friend problem?
Nina: I refuse to accept that triangles never work.
Rebekah: I agree.
Nina: there are friendship skills that we talk about in the show a lot that are true, like you just said, whether it’s a pair, a foursome, a threesome, whether it’s a whole friend circle of seven people, if you don’t communicate, if you don’t say what it is you need. If you don’t let some things go, you actually can’t always get what you need. that’s another thing. You’re not gonna get everything you need out of [00:04:00] like, this one friend group or this trio or this pair. Actually this is sort of a, um, maybe strange thing to say.
I, I actually don’t think you can express everything you need. ‘ cause at a certain point that’s not. what your friendship might be for. It’s like too much to ask out of one or two friends. The trio does seem to chip away at a lot of viewers, anxiety about being left out but I agree with you on the pair.
Like I think if I was on a vacation, I would rather be in a three than a two, just to like mix it up.
Rebekah: a two is wonderful, but that’s a little more intense. It’s dinners, just the two of you. I would take three or four.
Nina: maybe because I need some alone time too, so then I wouldn’t wanna worry about that.
I’m, yeah, that the other person’s now bored because I decided to go watch like five hours of running Point with Kate Hudson, which is what I just did on a recent vacation. Actually watched all the episodes.
Rebekah: You could take what you need from your vacation and not feel, you know, responsible for the other two.
Nina: how do we meet these three?
Rebekah: Okay. So we meet these trio. Jaclyn is an actress from la. She’s highly successful. Kate is her Texan socialite friend, and Laurie is a [00:05:00] New York lawyer. She’s divorce mom, and they’re all on this all expense trip paid to Thailand.
Thanks to Jaclyn and they even refer to it as their victory tour. That is where we first meet them and we see a lot of dinner conversations. It kind of reminded me, I imagine I maybe made this up in my head. They met sometime in middle school or elementary school even at somewhere in the Midwest.
Nina: Do we know? I know you said that in your notes. Do we know it’s the
Rebekah: No, no, I made
Nina: Is that because you and I grew up in the
Rebekah: yeah, in my, I’m like, they’re in Ohio and then they all leave.
Nina: We don’t get a ton of information about when they met, but I agree that it’s understood that they are childhood friends, so that that could be middle school, it could be elementary.
Rebekah: When they see each other on that first day at that victory tour, they really start complimenting each other right away. Jaclyn and Kate, notice how, like you look amazing, you look fabulous. And then there’s a slight pause when they see. Laurie and they compliment her, but it comes out a little bit forced, and I think Laurie [00:06:00] intentionally is meant to look a little bit tired.
She’s a little, her face is a little less perfect, even though, you know, she’s obviously gorgeous in, in real life. But they have, they’ve made her quote like the Dier friend, even though that’s, you know, insane. But they’re really trying it, it. It’s coming off so hard and there’s this pausing and you sense this and this, it ends where Laurie retreats to her bungalow with a bottle of wine and she looks out and she’s looking , into Jaclyn and Kate speaking and kind of just being close and she sobs.
It’s this guttural, sob and that’s where we see Laurie right away. And you kind of think, she is so sad. Where this gonna go.
Nina: What I took from that I remember is I assume that it’s the dynamic that always existed and it’s the part of the trio that was hard for viewers to deal with. because maybe the people who really hated seeing a triangle of friends, maybe they were the l they’re people who, yeah, like everyone loved her, like Kate and Jaclyn .
Of course they love her deep down. But when it comes down to it. Kate and Jaclyn maybe have a more [00:07:00] natural chemistry as a twosome, and maybe that has always been the case. And Laurie just regresses to those feelings she had in high school, even though we can assume she has other friends in New York actually we have very little sense that they’ve spent any time together as adults.
Rebekah: It sounds like they said it’s been forever. It doesn’t seem they’re that up to date into seeing each other in real life. Um, and another thing that reminded me of Laurie’s looking at, there’s nothing sadder than sort of being adjacent to joy. You’re in this amazing resort. You’re with your quote, quote, best friends, you’re excluded and you’re so close to that feeling, you know, and she wouldn’t feel maybe as sad in New York zooming or FaceTiming with her friends.
But she is actually there, but not. Present to their joy. And she even says it’s like looking in a mirror. she wants to be mirrored in this friendship. She wants to see herself in them, but it’s making her sad.
Nina: That’s right, and we actually know that later. She really says it, but All right. Onto episode two.
Rebekah: episode two is special treatments and Jaclyn mentions that there are hot single wellness instructor.
Valenti is single she should [00:08:00] totally get with him while simultaneously mentioning how addicted she is to her young hot husband. So you kind of really see Jaclyn ‘s life. She’s this actress, she has her hot young boyfriend and she’s kind of pushing Laurie to, to go for it. You’re on vacation, just have a wild time, which obviously sets up a, a dynamic for later on in the season.
Nina: In episode two you reminded me that, this is when Laurie and Kate have a moment where they kind of gossip about Jaclyn ‘s marriage. So in episode one, we’ve had a pairing off of Jaclyn and Kate, and now in episode two we’ve had a slight pairing off of Laurie and Kate. So Kate’s the common denominator
Rebekah: so we do kind of see that, you know, Laurie is not above the gossiping herself. They’re, they’re not exactly sure about this husband. It doesn’t seem, even though she seems so obsessed with him, it doesn’t seem real to them and they kind of question the validity of, of this relationship with Harrison, who we really never see.
There’s no on time scream. He’s, he’s almost a non, what’s that word? In a video game? Non, non important
Nina: Oh [00:09:00] yeah. Right.
Rebekah: something.
Nina: now I think it’s in the scene, but I don’t remember. But it seems plausible that it would be that Laurie and Kate also kind of talk about like, has Jaclyn had too much work done?
Rebekah: Oh yeah. Her, face was sandblasted.
Nina: yes,
Rebekah: Is what Kate said, but you know, before said you look amazing and you look like you just came outta the womb or something. Something, you know, hilarious.
Nina: Women are hard on each other like that. And I think it only has to do with ourselves, like you only notice people’s like work they’ve had done or weight they’ve lost or not lost, whatever.
When you’re thinking about like, oh shoot, do I need work done? Do I need to lose weight? It’s really about ourselves. Mm-hmm.
Rebekah: even though she hasn’t said that. But I imagine that to be true
Nina: Right, and I imagine Kate and Laurie know that to be true too. Both of them, [00:10:00] they know they’re gonna be photographed with their movie star friends, so they all have to look good. And they do. They all look great. Okay, on to three.
Rebekah: Yes. Okay. So three is another, uh, dinner table side conversation. And it actually reminded me a little bit of how many conversations they must have had. I, I pictured the cafeteria in middle school where the three of them sat and like wanting to sit at Jaclyn ‘s table. And anyways, it was just kind of reminded me of a long extension of.
Dinners that they’ve had. And this is when Jaclyn questions Kate, about attending a church in Texas about people who may have voted for Trump. And Kate responds super diplomatically and says they’re nice people and she basically shuts it down and later she repeats some, I dunno if I’ll get the quote exactly right, but one person’s polite is another person’s good manners.
So Kate is not a character who’s interested to me in delving deep. She’s not really a character who wants to get into much. I think she’s fine with the surface level and I think that’s okay. I don’t know that every friend has to go deep [00:11:00] dives. this is now a different change because Jaclyn and Laurie are kind of side eyeing each other and they do seem maybe unaware that their friend changed in whatever way that means to them.
But we do kind of see Kate as this peacekeeper. We also see her discomfort with confrontation. We do finally kind of see a Jaclyn Laurie two on one. So now everyone has talked about everyone
by the third episode,
Nina: yes. There by the pool later, or they’re somewhere later in a separate space. And Kate knows perfectly well that they’re talking about her now. that scene to me showed truly how little they know about each other’s adult lives. Like the fact that it was sort of the first time they’ve ever talked about her life in Texas.
It seems like maybe it’s never come up, you know, on a Zoom or on a text or anything.
Rebekah: You basically learn she taught herself to eat beans and that she gets her protein, that she attends church I think was even surprising
Nina: Mm-hmm. Or that she would like it. yeah, she would like attend. ‘ cause she wants to
Rebekah: do you have to be on the same page [00:12:00] with your friends? I think that kind of comes up. does that make you distant?
Nina: And especially old friends, I would argue you, you don’t, but I don’t even like wanna get totally into it. But I would say even for old, old friends.
I would hope that there’d be some room for, your lives have gone in different directions, but you still have those core memories together. And I hate to see people throw it away.
Rebekah: And you know, because I think that is part of why we are watching, you know, adult friendships shift. We want to mirror each other. We kind of have this belief. We all see each other in each other. And I think as we grow up for over a thousand different reasons, we don’t always see each other in each other.
So moving on to Jaclyn ‘s had enough, like I think Kate would be totally fine just doing yoga, eating Chicken. Chicken and having rose. I don’t think she’s looking for spiritual enlightenment in Thailand. But Jaclyn ‘s had it and it actually I think opens with her husband hasn’t called her. She can’t get in touch. And this is kind of pushing her and pushing the narrative of this idea. Like they’re fun, they’re young, they’re vibrant, she doesn’t wanna do yoga every day. And they [00:13:00] ask Valentine, who again? It keeps popping up, you know, what else can we do? We really wanna have this authentic experience.
And he sends them to a hotel, and it is hilarious because Jaclyn looks around and everyone is 75 it couldn’t be more non lotus. No one is in their resort. I mean, they’re in their TJ m Max special, which I love t MX too, , they’re just not, it is, it’s a, it’s a ship,
Jaclyn is shocked and I couldn’t tell if Valentine did it, just to make fun of them. Like you’re actually old, you know, it’s almost,
she’s facing a different mirror.
she thinks, she’s so young, they think they’re so hot. But to some young Russian guy, you’re actually in your, you’re actually in your fifties.
So I didn’t know. I couldn’t tell if he did that on purpose. because then the next time he sends them out to, again, They wanna be more with the locals and they get totally pelted with water guns, and they look miserable and they’re just not having the experience that they want. Which eventually leads up to the full Moon party.
Episode five, and this is where Laurie, Jaclyn , and Kate continue to a club. They’re hanging out with [00:14:00] Valentine and his friends, they are doing shots. I think Kate doesn’t do the shot. I, have to remember, but it
is,
Nina: Only enough for maybe a little buzz, but she does
Rebekah: yeah, no, I think she, she, if she does, she throws it over her shoulder. Kate,
Nina: Oh, interesting.
Rebekah: Kate, I think is worried they’re gonna get, roofed like she is not, this is not her scene, but her friends are having fun. You see Jaclyn watching another trio of Young girls.
Nina: She loves them watching her dance
with the men.
Rebekah: And again, it’s kind of that idea of that trio that, are we young?
Can we still be fun? And then they go back the Russian guys come back to the club. And now I think at this point, maybe Laurie skinny dipping
Nina: They’re back at the
Rebekah: Yeah, sorry. Back at their bungalow, right. They’re having a great time. Laurie’s talking about being, a badass lawyer. She has to pay palimony. She kind of feels looser in her body than we’ve seen her. Jaclyn ‘s having a great time. But Kate has put on her pajamas and I just love that it is so passive aggressive, but still polite.
She’s sending out all the vibes of girls. I’ve had it.
Nina: I felt that she was the, being the [00:15:00] grownup, she was kind of like, somebody needs to stay sober and make sure these men don’t rob us. And by the way, she really was right. Ultimately they were the thiefs. she kinda had a sense. They’re strangers and you’ve let them into your bungalow where all your nice stuff is, all your jewelry, all your money, your passports. I identified with her in this one, I just have to interject here to tell the listeners that during my recent spring break where I was one of many moms having to accompany our senior kids on a spring break in Mexico. It really brought back all these high school feelings from me of being sort of a Kate character in that I’m always drinking the least, staying out, not the latest. I stay up actually quite late, but not out. They’re staying up and staying out. I had all these funny feelings about it. It was like this weird combo of being like, this is who I am. I’m not apologizing for it, but then feeling bad about it anyway. And so I would call you or I’d left you voice memos
and I’m like, why do I feel like such a loser?
Rebekah: And what makes you feel even more like that is like being in the party. You are surrounded by this party mode where people are letting loose, where people are dancing and it’s like, oh, I, I [00:16:00] don’t wanna do that and I don’t have to at my age. That’s not fun anymore. and then there are the Jaclyn ‘s who maybe are feeling this is their one week where Laurie isn’t a mom.
She is just free. It’s that balance sometimes between what a friend may need, what a friend may not, and having to balance both of those. But it does trigger, especially I think being with your high school friends, that feeling of the roles, you know, which Kate always the one who, you know, was she holding Jaclyn ‘s hair back
Nina: I
Rebekah: throwing up? And probably Laurie. Yeah. So I think Kate is kind of the friend who was always kind of watching them in a polite distance
Nina: She was probably the designated driver, all through high school, wherever they went to high school. We still don’t know where.
Rebekah: and she’s fine with that. She did, I think say, oh, we haven’t danced like this for a hundred years. She calls themselves old ladies. So she’s almost trying to bring attention to the fact, and every time she does that, Jaclyn pushes back.
that triggers Jaclyn . I think almost leads to her terrible decision
Nina: Yeah, I think
Rebekah: the end where, she’s been pushing Valentine on Laurie the whole time. We see [00:17:00] him go into Jaclyn ‘s Bungalow,
Nina: This is hotly debated whether she planned that the whole time, like she’s been flirting with him and when did she slip that key to him? Or is it just something that got decided in a drunken whatever that night?
Rebekah: Do you have a,
Nina: I think it just kind of happened. Two things were true with this. I think she genuinely wanted Laurie to have that fun and let loose, and then when Laurie was clearly not acting on it, she was like, okay, I’m going for it.
Not saying she was right to do it, but I actually don’t think that she planned to hurt Laurie’s feelings. I don’t.
Rebekah: So maybe it wasn’t as premeditated or as narcissistic. Yeah. I think a lot kind of led up to it with her feelings of her own insecurity. So not justifying it, but if she was able to do a deep dive into herself. She’s feeling insecure about her husband. She is an aging actress, and I do think she just took the opportunity.
I don’t think Jaclyn ‘s gotten to where she’s taking opportunities and not always being the best friend. So again, not justifying it, but it does seem to probably [00:18:00] fit with her core self.
Nina: There’s being like maniacal and there’s being thoughtless and I think she’s thoughtless. she did not think through, okay, if I do this and get caught somehow it’s gonna make Laurie feel a way it’s gonna make, even though he’s nothing to Laurie. But she couldn’t think forward
24 hours to think how would this play out if they knew, of course it would play out that Laurie would be like, what? Laurie’s not crazy to have reacted the way she did. I could see why she was kind of like really, seriously. Once again has to be the Jaclyn show, which kind of brings us to the next episode,
Rebekah: So yes, that brings us to seven Killer Instincts, this is when Kate sees Valentine leave in the morning. She just , sort of off the cusp at breakfast, tells Laurie
Nina: that I’m not so sure about. See there’s,
Rebekah: so this is also debated. Did Kate, was there malice? Did she really not think it’d be a big deal, which is how she plays it
Nina: That I find hard to believe.
Rebekah: Okay. tell me yoUr
Nina: So it’s funny, I. Find, um, Jaclyn to be sort of an exhausting kind of friend to have, and [00:19:00] yet I feel like I can defend her decision from the night before more than I can defend Kate stirring the pot the way she did. There is no way that Kate didn’t know how that would land. It’s like she took a little turd and threw it in front of Laurie and really also threw in front of Jaclyn . Laurie would not have known but for Kate saying it, and that is a huge issue I think in friendships that is very recognizable. I think people saw that scene, and I have certainly been told things I wish I wasn’t told, and I then had to ask myself, why did that person tell me that?
Did they tell me so I would feel bad? I wanna wanna be like, leave me out of it. Why can’t you protect me? Actually,
Rebekah: I think, you know how we said Kate’s kind of always one of the gossipers. I, I think this is making her think in a way she’s telling, getting close with Laurie, telling something. Laurie wants to know she’s in the know that they’re gonna bond over, but also when Laurie gets mad, her and Jaclyn can be safe.
So it’s kind of sealing her, position. This is when a triangle can be toxic, of being close to both and kind of [00:20:00] being, the one, like they’re gonna get mad at each other, but not necessarily mad at her sometimes you do get mad at the messenger, but it doesn’t seem in this case and Laurie is so angry. Katie. There are faints that she is, you know, pretending. Oh, I didn’t realize you’d be so mad, but come on Kate.
Nina: Yes, a good friendship lesson on this one. Honestly, we do a whole episode just on this idea of, you don’t have to be that honest with your friends, as an adult especially. I think teenagers really get confused about this too. Everything, doesn’t have to be shared.
Like sometimes there is value in, Protecting your friend from information that is really none of their business necessarily, and then knowing it only is hurtful. there’s too many examples to come up with and, it’s not like I’m trying to say you should lie to your friends, but, you
Rebekah: but if I’m. I’ve been best friends with Kate forever. I do wanna know this. I mean, it’s a toughie,
Nina: but they’re on a trip. They’re like in the middle of this trip.
Rebekah: I know, I know. But if I found out later, or I guess what Kate could have done is go talk to Jaclyn first and be like, listen, I saw this. That was really [00:21:00] messed up.
You’ve been egging on Laurie. We know she’s ms. It almost like that conversation missed
Nina: That’s the only way I think. Uh,
yes,
Rebekah: then being like, what are we going, not what are we gonna just, this is at least acknowledging it Because without that it does seem vindictive.
It does seem she’s trying to,
Nina: It’s like she thinks Laurie should know, but she doesn’t want Jaclyn to have to do the hard work of telling her something. I agree that it would’ve been a, maybe the only way to save the trip, although it ends up being saved. But at that time in this episode, I think it was like this episode that, a lot of words come out of everyone’s mouth.
There’s it this one of the next one.
Rebekah: It’s this one. And that’s why I think they call it killer instincts because the gloves are off. they’ve been very polite. That’s been a part of it. This is amazing. You look amazing, but you know that the words are not matching the emotions.
But here Laurie is done and she even says, She’s so funny. That’s just so funny. But she’s not actually, Being funny, and she’s, it’s just so her, it’s so Jaclyn , and I think she calls her on it at that dinner. Jaclyn denies [00:22:00] it. Then she kind of gaslights them and turns it against them.
I have to deal with this in la, My friend’s gossiping. So she really inverts that good friends shouldn’t talk about you instead of just owning it. And had she just in that moment owned it, it would’ve been a totally different resolution.
Nina: it, in the same conversation that Truth does come out though, or is it later in the episode.
Rebekah: So I think she just is continuously denying it. I remember reading where people are so mad at Jaclyn . Just say, I Yeah, I did it. They could allow them to move on. And this is when they say, these are your poor choices. Are you always a victim? This is what happens. You just always get the short out of the stick, but it’s, it’s my fault. They are truth hurling, it is not kind. They’re being honest, but they’re also being honest with passive aggressiveness.
truth with meanness isn’t always the best way to approach your friends.
Nina: It seems like a message Laurie does need to hear and we know because of what happens at the end that it did penetrate. I think that that message, even though yeah, it was given over in a heated moment, like how could they [00:23:00] have done that? Maybe back in the room and been like, Laurie, we haven’t spent this much time with you in a long time, you seem really unhappy. I don’t know if there’s a way to say that to a friend if you’re really trying to help. And I think they actually were trying to help.
Rebekah: And I think that comes with the idea of gossip versus genuinely caring. So if there had been a side conversation with Jaclyn and Kate: Laurie seems so unhappy and her life has been hard. Had that come with love, then it, even though it is technically gossip, it is in the service of how can we help her?
And then even if it came up, it seems like she has this pattern of always making really bad choices. Is that something we should bring up? You know, it just seemed like that genuine care and love was absent when they talked about her, even though there was truth in her being the friend who makes the bad choices, whose life isn’t turning out the way they had pictured it doesn’t seem, it’s based in the genuine care. It lands like a bomb instead of when you’ve really had a heart to heart with your friend and it lands with love.
I actually think this pushes Laurie to [00:24:00] go to the fight with the Russians. we know that scene . She sleeps with Leski. It’s also that kind of idea, I think, of violence and how women can be violent through words.
Laurie doesn’t slap Jaclyn . She doesn’t punch her. They don’t get in a fist fight. She doesn’t pull her hair, but they are very violent in their words. The impact is different. this is where we see Laurie, I don’t think does have a lot of introspection. At least it doesn’t seem like it. We know as soon as the wild night is over. Alaska’s asking for money
Nina: when that happened too, I was like, oh, Laurie. I just couldn’t help but think of
kate and Jaclyn saying, you always make bad choices. You could feel the truth of it. This was not a good choice.
Rebekah: And I think she feels the truth of it. she has to literally jump out of a window because a Russian girlfriend’s coming you side see the stolen goods, which we kind of predicted and it alluded to earlier. And she is by herself, maybe finding a taxi, throwing her clothes on.
And I think it takes to that moment to hear what they said, accept it in a way she might not have [00:25:00] had she not have that night. So it’s, you know, you feel terrible when he is offering z PayPal cash app anyway. And you know, she probably does have $10,000 maybe to give it to him. And your heart is just like,
Nina: You feel bad for her, as a fellow woman who we’ve been watching for seven episodes, but
Rebekah: And you wanted to give her that one night, you’re like,
yeah, well, if she, if she wanted it, if Laurie wanted it where you are, you kind of shed being the mom and the
responsible, you know? But of course,
Mike, Mike White didn’t give it to her. And, uh, but he does give her something else,
Episode eight opens with, the idea about anxiety. Sometimes you wake up with anxiety and there is no resolution. I think just how the scene was laid out. I do think we get a resolution in a way with the trio.
But now it is the next morning.
Nina: I liked that moment when Jaclyn gets outta bed and goes and first apologizes to Kate, or at least makes it clear that she’s ready to make peace. She was mad at Kate too. They’d had their own little spat about,
kate is the one who told Laurie [00:26:00] they kind of had their own ick moment about it Jaclyn comes in and is like, you wanna go to breakfast? Should we go wake up, Laurie? And then Jaclyn says, I’ll go wake her up.
Rebekah: And then that is a shifting point because when Jaclyn apologizes, first of all, she has now admitted it. I give this apology a, six out 10 or a seven out 10. It, it was not a 10. Outta 10. I’ll tell, I’ll tell you why. She does say, I’m sorry. That I slept with him and she’s being genuine, Then she says, I didn’t think you’d care. So that’s why I had to lower the apology a little. because she’s still kind of justifying it. I think it would’ve landed just, I am so sorry. that was terrible. That’s all she really needed to do. But I still give Jaclyn a lot of credit. There’s a softness.
She looks softer. Laurie doesn’t go to breakfast, but she does watch her friends and it does not look when she watches them in the pool again, it did not mirror the first episode. I can’t remember her face completely, but it didn’t seem like she’s totally furious or angry.
Nina: The day passes on where mostly with the Ratcliffs to be honest. And then it takes a while to get back to the trio and I knew you and I would be recording and I was like, I hope there’s gonna be [00:27:00] more than just that little morning apology sesh.
they are finally together, for that final special dinner.
Rebekah: We set the scene. Jaclyn has apologized and Kate gives this, I thought, kind of bizarro Kate speech about the watering and nurturing your soil. I mean, it’s just. I was like, oh, I guess we’re not gonna get real is actually how I thought. I guess we’re gonna keep it that surface.
I think even Jaclyn says, I’ve been on cloud nine all week,
Nina: says, that’s what she says. I wrote it down. I actually stopped and pressed pause and wrote it down. She says, nothing makes me feel more grounded than being with friends, real friends. Then she refers to like kind of, I think being a celebrity, and she says, people judge you for your superficial defects.
Rebekah: You guys judge me for my profound defects. I get what she’s saying. It’s like, you actually know me.
I actually loved that line it did feel, you actually know my core character .
Nina: She takes her judgments more seriously and like that’s why she felt bad, that they were annoyed that she’d slept with Valentine because [00:28:00] it’s like she knew she had gone to her worst self, and they know her worst self. And she played right into her worst self. I think she was disappointed with herself, which is why she kinda lashed out at them about it in the first place.
Rebekah: So now we’re left wondering, I guess we’re just gonna say it was awesome. Love you. But Laurie does more truth telling, but unlike the episode previously where it comes, you know, you’re a narcissist. You’re like, where she was really angry to Jaclyn calling her out, We see a much softer and real Laurie. And I think for the first time throughout the whole season, you see the Laurie who was sobbing uncontrollably in episode one, but bringing forth her true emotions. And do you wanna read what she
Nina: Yes, I wrote it down and yeah, and then we can just talk about it as a whole. Laurie says, it’s funny because if I’m being honest, all week I’ve been so sad. And of course she says this sobbing. I’m not gonna do it like an actress.
I just feel like my expectations were too high. I just feel like as you get older, you have to justify your life and your choices. And when I’m with you guys, it’s [00:29:00] just so transparent what my choices were and my mistakes. I have no belief system. I mean, I’ve had a lot of them. work was my religion for forever, but I definitely lost my belief there.
And then I tried love, and that was just a painful religion. It just made everything worse. And for me, motherhood didn’t save me either. I had this epiphany today. I don’t need religion or God to give my life meaning because time gives it meaning.
We started this life together. We’re going through it apart, but we’re still together. And I look at you guys and it feels meaningful. I. I can’t explain it, but even when we’re sitting around the pool talking about inane stuff, it feels very deep. I’m glad you have a beautiful face. She says that looking at Jaclyn , and then she looks at Kate and says, I’m glad you have a beautiful life.
I’m just happy to be at the table. And then they each say, I love you to each other. everyone’s crying and they’re happy and they’re some canoodling on the beach chairs later, or the porch or
Rebekah: well you, you actually see their physical intimacy change. Kate is hugging Laurie, but, and like kissing her, they are close [00:30:00] in a way almost that you would get at camp or a slumber party, the way that female, 12 year, like how you can hug and be connected. That in a way we probably don’t do as much as grownups Almost youngish high school way where you would sit on your best friend’s lap.
Nina: Now you posed a question to me. I think it was on text something along the lines of what if Laurie had said something like this in episode one? How would that have changed their whole trip? And it’s a great question and it’s a good lesson for people.
if you could be vulnerable with your old friends from the get go, instead of having to be fake, they would’ve had an even more profound trip, I
Rebekah: Yes. Absolutely. It was just that sob when she was alone in the room. How different would these seven days and how sad that you had to wait till the end to be so honest with your best friends, who, by the way, knew. This is like, we know. We can see, literally, we can look on your face. We’ve known you long enough. We know you’re profoundly. Unhappy.
And imagine if we didn’t hide it and they’re hiding it too. They’re also asking about, imagine if Jaclyn said, I haven’t even talked to my husband instead of [00:31:00] saying how addicted she is. What if they were just a little more honest? Would they walk away feeling, closer instead of that they’re so pulled apart.
Nina: I really have to juxtapose their friendship with Chelsea and Chloe.
One thing that, makes me think about the two different kinds of friendships, I think people are like, oh, Chelsea and Chloe are so much closer, because they’re so much more supportive of each other and they just tell each other anything and they’re supportive. I’m gonna take a controversial take here and say, people actually are easier on their new friends. Actually, I think people are very hard on their old friends. And so it’s almost easier with a new friend that you have instant chemistry with that happens. You meet this person, you have instant chemistry, and you just tell them everything and they support everything and you support everything they said.
Whereas with your old friend, they, they wanna do one different thing. We’re hard on people we’ve known for a little while and we give a lot of benefit of the doubt and like cheering on and support to like these brand new friends. So I dunno how deep Chelsea and Chloe are. It’s great they’re supportive of each other, but I think it’s easy to be supportive.
I’m a brand new person.
Rebekah: Right. I mean, and [00:32:00] Chloe could have said, gosh, you’re, you’re with this guy who really treats you terribly. He calls you annoying. You keep saying you’re his soulmate. We know that ending. So even though they, they totally got along, they had fun. It wasn’t like Chloe was having her reflect on her choices in men or vice versa.
I think they’re young and they’re fun and sometimes you do meet someone and you have instant friendship, chemistry, but it has not been through the grit and the grind of.
Nina: that’s right. I think people are mistaking, easy friendship for deep friendship. So yes, Chloe and Chelsea have an easy friendship. These three until the end, I. I was not so for them, and I think you and I both felt that way, like throughout the seven episodes, the first seven I, both of us were a little like triangles can work and I said that at the beginning of the episode and I maintain that a triangle can work if you know how to be a good friend.
I think these three have a chance. I actually believe in them now that there’s been some honesty and they’ve had some vulnerability that they maybe had a long time ago, but they haven’t had in a long time.
Rebekah: because Laurie, yeah, I mean she really bares her soul. saying, I thought I was gonna be like being a mom, and [00:33:00] that’s not enough. My work’s not enough, but just being with you and just sitting here gives me meaning. Being able to look at something that has lasted a long time has given me meaning.
for some people she might have forgiven them too quickly
Nina: I will say the social media peeps out there that I have noted, and it’s like has, you know, that only aired last night and you and I were recording on Monday the day after it aired. So I haven’t had time to do a huge deep dive. I’ll say the little I’ve seen has been not terribly excited about this ending.
People felt that, why do we watch them with the gossip and the backstabbing for seven episodes to just be like, I love you at the end. But I actually like that. I think it’s refreshing to see people come over a bad thing, not just cut each other off. It would’ve been much more within the way people do things nowadays, for them to never speak to each other again and to cut each other off and to each talk about each other to their at home friends and say how toxic their old friends were.
And I liked that this actually pushed this being Mike White, I guess as the writer [00:34:00] pushed viewers to think, you know what, you can have like a bad time. You could have an argument with your friend. You could have a whole bad vacation with your friends and still make up. Your old friends if you don’t
Rebekah: Right,
Nina: away.
Rebekah: It hinged on Jaclyn ‘s apology in the morning, I think without that. I don’t know that Laurie would’ve been able to approach them in that way. Maybe she would’ve, maybe it wasn’t. But I do think that kind of opened because she was being real. She was no longer lying about it.
So that allowed Laurie to be also more real in front of her friends.
Nina: I think you’re right. Yeah. So Jaclyn does get some credit for helping nudge things, in the
Rebekah: Alright. All right. Although she, she, she messed it up in the first place, so.
Nina: That’s it. Was hers to fix? Yeah,
Rebekah: It was hers. It
was hers to fix.
Nina: It was also Laurie’s to fix because she’s the one who showed up kind of in the worst spot in her life and the least willing to just be open about it. So the fact that she, like you pointed out that SOB in episode one, she kind held in that SOB the entire week, once she finally let it out, they were able to [00:35:00] all kind of come closer together.
Rebekah: And even after their near death experience,
Nina: yeah. Hello. We need to talk
Rebekah: which they.
Nina: People have pointed out that Laurie ran the fir ran first and the fastest away, but maybe she just was the fastest. I, we don’t
Rebekah: I mean, I, I, would be the fa I, I would’ve run
that. I, I would’ve, I I don’t blame Laurie for that. But I think, you know, they’re back on the boat also in this close proximity. They actually look tearful. I think Jaclyn , if I remember kind of, and I don’t know if they’re tearing up at the end because they’re saying goodbye or because they just had this near life, death experience.
But they are leaving, I believe, changed.
not fully full on, I don’t think they’re embracing Buddhism Buddhism as Victoria says, but I do think they are going to be kinder not only with each other, with themselves
Nina: I think they’re gonna go on another trip. I think Laurie’s gonna have the most changes in her life because Jaclyn is on a certain path. Kate seems pretty happy with her life Laurie is probably has the most to do to make changes, but I feel [00:36:00] like she’s empowered to do that now. I think she looks at those two and says they have made choices that have made them happy.
might, they might not be the choices she would make for her life. She’s not gonna live in Texas and go to church
Maybe Laurie will be inspired to be friends who are not exactly like her, it seems like it’s opened her eyes to you could invite different people in your life make different
Rebekah: decisions.
Yeah. And you can accept an apology. You can kind of stay angry. You could stay bitter. It’s really your choice. So I think I told you, Nina, I was reading a book and it’s called, you’re the Only One I can Tell Inside the Language of Women’s Friendship. It’s Deborah Tannen. And I just found this part and it seemed so. Perfect. And it says yet the nuances overlaps and clashes of sameness and difference fail to account for the magic of friendship.
Maybe all our explanations about why we are friends, including a catalog of how we’re the same and how we’re different are just ways of trying to make sense of something that has nothing at all to do with reason. Maybe we can’t really say why one friend remains from childhood, from summer camp, from college, from a former job or [00:37:00] neighborhood while others fall away.
Nina: Oh, I’m so glad you read that. I think it explains it perfectly that sometimes there’s no explanation. That’s who we need at a certain time. Why does some stay, why does some go but some common denominators to takeaway from this episode and that we can bring into our real life, and we started by saying Trios could work, pairs could work, squares can work, and they could all not work.
The common thing is being a good friend in any of those shapes, which means communicating. Being vulnerable like Laurie was at the end. We are saying we wish she was that way at the beginning. Apologizing and accepting an apology are huge. And they’re two different skills, but they’re both important.
You could look at the entire 140 episodes that came before this to go over other things that would require a triangle to work.
But I think you and I both have the thesis that a triangle can work. so many. Articles, Rebekah, like every episode that came out, every single publication had an article or a video or something that basically said, this is why friendship trios don’t work and every time I want you to know. I saw that. I thought that is [00:38:00] not true. I reject that.
Rebekah: I wholeheartedly agree.
It is such clickbait. Yeah. So it’s really be a good friend and your vacation or your life will, will work. be accepting, be real. And you don’t have to be the person you were when you were 12. we’re allowed to grow. We’re allowed to change.
You know, give your friends a little grace. We’re all, navigating big shifts together. And we’re not really supposed to be mirrors of each other.
Nina: Final lesson. I love everything you just said, if we could bring a little bit of the benefit of the doubt and pleasantness and support that Chelsea and Chloe bring to each other as new friends to our old friends.
I think that was an important point we talked about too, we’re a little too hard. I think on our old friends, like you said, we’re allowed to change and sometimes it’s the old friends who. like to remind you that you used to think a certain thing. And my goodness, if you can’t develop as an adult, what’s the point?
you have to let people grow and change.
Rebekah: I agree. Absolutely.
Nina: All right, Rebekah. So fun.
Rebekah: This is special. Tonight we’re actually [00:39:00] ordering Thai food with a bunch of us. And
um, so I was, I couldn’t wait to watch the finale. I told them I’m, I’m watching. I’ll still go eat Thai food, but
I’m just gonna have
Nina: gosh. I almost wish we could have recorded after that because I bet your friends are gonna have so many good insights. But you know what, if anybody has anything wonderful to say that I have not included on this episode. because that’s tonight. I.
Rebekah: Yeah.
Nina: when I do the Substack post, you know, I’m happy to quote your friends.
You know, tell, like, say, ladies, you may, if you say something great, I’m writing it down for Nina, so
Rebekah: Okay, perfect. Yes, if we, if we missed anything, you have
Nina: yeah, that’s right. All right, everybody, this was an extra episode. You got two episodes really this week, and I’ll be back next week with our regularly scheduled operations . When our friendships are going well, we are happier all around. Thank you, Rebekah.
Bye. [00:40:00]
