Jenn: [00:00:00] there is no Sunny and Jenn without Sunny. I don’t care if you’re a fan of Peloton, that’s not what this is. This is Sunny and Jenn, and there is no Sunny and Jenn without what Sunny brings. But in terms of keeping this on track about friendship. If you don’t have friends that do what Sunny and I do for each other, you gotta find some new friends,

Nina: Welcome to Dear Nina, conversations about friendship. I am your host, Nina Badzin. I have been writing about friendship since 2014. That’s over 10 years ago, wow it’s starting to be a long time. Podcasting about it since 20 21 . it is a topic that I am engrossed in all the time.

if you don’t know how TikTok works, which is a lot of you, TikTok feeds you information that you already are interested in or it learns what you’re interested in? Listen, I’m not going to even try to explain it ‘ cause I barely understand it myself. I just know that TikTok knows that I like friendship content.

And so when Jenn Sherman and Pam Sunshine, two longtime friends over [00:01:00] 40 years came on the scene with their massive account, Sunny and Jenn, that’s at Sunny and Jenn both have two Ns in there. TikTok fed it to me right away. I became an absolute. fan of these two best friends .

I didn’t even know at the time that Jenn Sherman was a major Peloton star at Peloton for over 10 years . I didn’t know anything about her best friend, Pam Sunshine, who she calls Sunny, and really all of us who watch Sunny and Jenn on their accounts on Instagram and TikTok, who refer to her as Sunny, in comments we’re like, Sunny, where’s those pants from?

She has Been in the fashion world in some capacity for over 30 years. These two are so much fun, and if you don’t know them and you just go check out either of the accounts on Instagram or TikTok at Sunny and Jenn, I think you’ll see why I am so into them. They have such a supportive and wonderful friendship.

They really cheer each other on. You will hear in this episode how they met and it wasn’t when they were young [00:02:00] kids. I mean, they were young, they were around 18, 19, but they weren’t neighbors growing up from the time they were five years old or anything.

Their story has so much advice in it. Just the way their friendship built has advice woven within, because it’s like everything I’ve ever talked about on this podcast that proximity matters, that scheduling matters, that showing up for the good times, not just the bad times matters.

Cheering your friend on. Being the first to be excited for them and making that clear and not letting your friend wonder. They are so overtly proud of each other. They tell each other.

And one other thing I want to comment on. They use the word luck a lot and I just want to challenge them on that for a second. I didn’t get a chance to do it right in the episode, so I’m going to do it now. And hopefully if they hear this, they will agree. That is not just luck. Of course there’s some luck ‘ cause they had a friend in common who put them together and it’s lucky that their friend chose to do that.

But in terms of growing the friendship, that is beyond luck. They both put a lot of hard work into staying in touch, spending [00:03:00] time together, putting time on the schedule. Even once they had kids, even when they both have been pursuing completely different and very busy full-time careers marriages and other friends that they share, other friends they have on their own, to be able to maintain a longstanding friendship for over 40 years,

it is beyond luck and you have to be putting some skin in the game. There’s no other way around it. And they really did the work and they have been enjoying the fruits of that work. They are wonderful role models for anybody who’s hoping to build a friendship. And of course, everybody’s different.

Nobody has the same situation, but you will get some takeaways for how you could even come into a new friendship with a different kind of attitude. We talk about confrontation and dealing with issues in a friendship. We really get to it all. I hope you enjoy the two of them as much as I have. Let’s get to it. Hello, Jenn Sherman of Pam Sunshine. Welcome to Dear Nina.

Sunny: you for having us.

Nina: I’m a long time fan, I have been watching you two on social media [00:04:00] since soon after you were discovered.

I’m going to have you tell your discovering story how you were discovered. But one thing that might be amusing for listeners who are big Peloton people to know is that I’m not a Peloton person. I am a workout person. I’s not like, I don’t know about Peloton. Several of my friends are, and they were super excited that I’d be talking to you, Jenn. But the truth is, I discovered you at the same time that I discovered your best friend Pam.

Jenn: I love that. By the way, you’re not the first, and I love when people actually say, I don’t even have a Peloton. you know, I follow Sunny and Jenn and I discovered you that way. It’s great.

Nina: For people who aren’t on TikTok, they don’t quite understand that that algorithm is brilliant. So the second you two kind of came on the scene, like tiktoks, like, oh, Nina is going to want this. They were right. I was hooked immediately. Now it’s like Instagram too and everything. What we’re going to do is I want to hear about how you met, then we’re going to hear about how this Sunny and Jenn came about, but then we’re going to go back and actually go a lot deeper into what makes a friendship last as long as yours has lasted. Who would like to start the friendship meet. Cute. How did it start?

Sunny: a very, very long [00:05:00] story short, my best friend from college , is Jenn’s best friend from high school,

Jenn: one of my best guy friends from high school and growing up, Sunny went to college with him. Take it from there, Sunny.

Sunny: apparently, as Jenn likes to say, her best friend goes to college. All she hears about is Pam this and Pam this, and my best friend Pam. And Pam and Pam and Pam and Pam So finally it’s Thanksgiving, and every win comes to New York and they all go out the Wednesday night before Thanksgiving.

And Jenn is so excited to meet the infamous Pam, because Jimmy’s like, Pam’s going to be where you’re, you gotta find it out. So she app allegedly comes up to me and is like, oh my God it’s Jenn and I apparently was like, oh, hi.

Nina: Wait, so you guys are like 18, 19, in this story,

Sunny: I’m a year older than Jenn.

Nina: and you grew up in Florida, Pam,

Sunny: I grew up in Florida. I went to school in DC at American. , So I was a freshman. Jenn was still home in high school,

Nina: Oh, got it. Okay. Can understand you. Like, oh, high school kid. Yeah.

Sunny: you know, she’s friends with the older [00:06:00] kids, whatever, and her older best friend has this new best friend

Jenn: this was my older best friend who had left and also gone off to college we, were still so close, so it was like, how’s everything going at school? You know, I knew everything about what was going on with him. Every other freaking day was Pam, this and Pam, you would love her and I’ve got this best friend.

And then you two would be best friends. So guess what? It was time to finally meet in person and I was actually looking forward to it.

Nina: What’s his name? Your common friend?

Sunny: Jimmy

Jenn: I call him James Roy as a funny little joke, but it’s Jimmy We grew up in T New Jersey together. Pam, does it matter that even though you grew up in Miami, your dad lived up in New Jersey, so that’s why you

Sunny: My dad lives in Fort Lee where they all went to high school we did have a lot of overlap, so. I was going to my dad’s for Thanksgiving,

Nina: I just want to highlight Jimmy for a second because he did something extremely generous here, which I do wonder sometimes it’s this horrible thing to say, but I’m just going to say it.

If it had been a girl that was friends with both of you that lived in New York or you know, was coming [00:07:00] home to New York, would that person, we don’t know. It’s just like a thought experiment. Would that person have been generous enough to say, Hey, I think you two would get along. I do that a lot. I’m a connect, some do, some don’t.

Sunny: I like my friends to be friends. I think it’s amazing. But I’m thinking if you, did like a little poll.

Nina: Mm-hmm.

Sunny: I think the percentage would be very low.

Nina: So Jimmy gets a lot of props here for being completely like a generous spirit who was like, you know what? I have room. it’s an abundance mindset instead of a scarcity mindset that Jimmy said, I love Jenn. I love Pam. They’ll love each other, and there’s still room for me no matter what.

Sunny: Yes. And he is fully responsible. And another fun fact about Jimmy, even though this has really nothing to do with friendship, Jimmy also introduced me to my husband.

Nina: Jimmy’s a gem.

Sunny: Just for the hat trick, my sister and Jenn were roommates in college, that was a coincidence.

Jenn: that was a coincidence.

Sunny: I didn’t, set, them up.

Nina: well was it, you know, it depends the way you look at the world.

Sunny: I don’t believe in coincidences

Jenn: being said, when I was finally growing up and I was on my way to leave for [00:08:00] Syracuse, New York as a freshman in college, Jimmy a thousand percent said to me, it happened a year later. It’s not important that the timing, you’ve gotta look out for Pam sister. it was a lot there. You know what I mean? I looked out for her, I found her, I loved her. We pledged the same sorority and then we wound up being roommates later on. It’s,

Sunny: back to Jimmy.

Nina: then you finally met in person and I assume you didn’t start talking on the phone immediately and obviously this is pre smartphone, actually getting to know somebody was not so quick. Nowadays it’d be like, oh, can I have your snap? Like if your kids were meeting somebody at a bar that they wanted to be friends with, they would exchange all that and it would happen quite quickly. This is like probably dependent on you coming back to New York all the time , pam.

Sunny: I would go to Syracuse to visit my sister, so I would see Jenn there.

Jenn: And that’s where it started to, the friendship

Sunny: really we became very close we had so much in common. My sister, a very generous person, was like, oh my God, I love it that you love my roommate. My sister’s a year younger than Jenn . [00:09:00] Jenn graduates college. Even when Joan was in college, I had moved to the city because I graduated. She would come to New York City on the weekends and come stay with me. And over the summers she would stay with me. And that’s how the friendship really took

Jenn: it, took a couple years, like you were saying, this was not instant from the first time I met Pam on that sidewalk. This is several years go by of Several crazy things happening me becoming so close with her sister that she becomes my roommate. Jimmy brought us together initially, but it doesn’t come together for several years. And it’s not until I finally graduated college and I’m now living in Fort Lee with my parents because I didn’t move right to New York like a lot of people did. I, took time to find a job. I was living at home. This one was living in the city. I was spending every single weekend on her couch. So we spent all of our young, single years together in New York City, and that’s where it really solidified,

Sunny: It was Every weekend.

Nina: This tracks with [00:10:00] relationship science so perfectly. And I don’t know if you’ve ever heard this statistic, but it takes about 200 hours to become close friends, fewer hours to become decent friends. Like you might, maybe it’s 50, just 60 hours, just to like, feel like you kind of are more than just an acquaintance. 200 hours is a close friend. Think about how

Sunny: Hmm.

Nina: tracked perfectly.

Sunny: geez. We, I mean.

Jenn: Yeah.

Sunny: it doesn’t make perfect sense. We were then share houses together over the summers. It, and this friendship just,

Nina: and then those hours rack up okay, you get married, you have kids. We’re going to come back to some of this piece of how the friendship grew, maybe where things, I don’t want to say weren’t perfect, but were just actually you have real life in the way. I want to fast forward all the way to the big sunny and Jenn moment because that is how a lot of people know you.

And then it’s funny, the episode right before this, will have been a deep analysis with two professors on the movie Beaches. And what sometimes people have a struggle with with that movie. I love it. obviously, and I actually think it’s in masterclass in friendship because they do fight and they do make up When people only know a relationship, on [00:11:00] social media, it might seem like a certain thing. And so we’re going to have the opportunity to discuss that. But okay. Business. Fast forwarding to business, . Let’s go straight to Palm Beach. You are friends now, decades by this time, what happens?

Jenn: So it’s not, unusual at all in this friendship Spending, time together is what really helps blossom a friendship, right? But Pam and I for years have been taking that to the next level, and we very strongly believe in a girl’s trip. Not just with each other. We take them with our girlfriends.

I just got back from one this weekend. We’re taking another one in a couple of months. But Pam and I always, in these last, I would say this last 10 years, we’ve tried to really make time to get away. And have some real girl time. So we were on one of our girl trips, just the two of us. We were down in, Fort Lauderdale we were going to Palm Beach for the evening.

We were, uh, walking down the street in Palm Beach. We got stopped by a woman who essentially was [00:12:00] interviewing us. Excuse me. Excuse me. can I speak to the two of you for a second? What are you both wearing? You both look fabulous. Pam and I didn’t ask a lot of questions. We kind of just started answering,

Sunny: she’s say, And we didn’t ask one

Jenn: we don’t

Sunny: like

Jenn: her who she’s

Sunny: it was bizarre.

Nina: It’s amazing. You stopped.

Sunny: it was, I don’t, it was

Jenn: It only it, it sounds strange. Now when we tell the story, because looking back on it, it’s so weird. We didn’t ask any questions and we kind of just answered her. Pam’s like, oh, well I’m wearing this, this, and this, and these are my Amazon glasses and I’m wearing these jeans and this sweater.

And then she looked over at me and she was like, and what are you wearing? And I was like, I don’t even know what I’m wearing. Which is very typical for me. I’m like, sunny, what kind of jeans are these sunny answers for me like she does very often. It was just that simple. it was a five minute conversation on a street. Was it worth avenue, Pam, where were we?

Sunny: It was worth avenue

Jenn: We were on our way to dinner when the little conversation ended, she was kind of like, thanks guys. You guys are adorable. Have fun tonight. Enjoy your dinner. Like that was it. We didn’t think what we [00:13:00] were thinking about was food and getting to dinner, if

Sunny: yeah.

Jenn: honest.

cut to couple months later, two or three months later, Pam gets a phone call, from her younger daughter, Alex. Saying, mom, you and Auntie Jenn are going viral. You’re all over my for you page, Pam. I’ll let you tell what, how you responded back to

Sunny: Which I answer. I’m like, what’s your for you page?

Nina: Right, like you’re

Jenn: have.

Sunny: I, I we, we didn’t have TikTok. I didn’t know. I said, I, I know what you’re talking about, mom. You’re everyone’s for you page. Still, dunno what that is. She’s like, it’s on TikTok and at that point Carly had called Jenn. I was like, mom, I’m getting all these calls and then my phone starts blowing up. Jenn’s phone starts blowing up. The video ended up getting 17 million views.

Nina: Wow.

Jenn: Of just the two of us walking down the street talking about what we were wearing. So as it turns out, let’s just back, back up for a second. this very nice girl that stopped us on the street, she has a TikTok channel called,

Sunny: class of Palm Beach.

Jenn: She stops everyone that’s walking down the street that looks, I [00:14:00] guess half decent. I don’t even know. Half dressed. she has a following on TikTok. It’s funny that there was such a lapse that this interview took place in April and it didn’t end up on her TikTok. I don’t know what, why, you know, maybe she gets so much content. She pushed it back and then threw it up whenever she threw it up. Never

Sunny: Maybe we were just filler. Maybe she didn’t have anything we don’t really look like, we’re not the typical people she’s interviewing.

Jenn: Yeah, I kind of remember like cute white jeans. You look, you guys are so cute. Like you

Sunny: Right, but she was interviewing people that dress very different than us, so we were not her normal

Jenn: very very fancy designer, more mature women with diamonds everywhere. Like we’re not that, I mean, you we can rock a pair of jeans pretty well in in our late fifties, but so that’s why the content looked a little different. But it didn’t go up on her TikTok for several months.

It blows up. I knew that something was really happening when I walked into work that next day and I walked into the green room where we get ready, where I would [00:15:00] meet to see my co-instructors and one of my amazing co-instructors. I walk in the door and she was like, what is going on with you on TikTok? You are viral, girl.

Do you see what’s happening? That’s when I knew that it was like kind of nutty. Then I was like, maybe I should really pay attention to this and take a look at what’s happening here. And that’s kind of how it started. it went on for days. You know how TikTok can be. It was just rolling. It wouldn’t stop. It was blowing up. it was more the comments, what people were writing under the post. When you get millions of views, you get hundreds and hundreds. It’s probably, there’s probably thousands of comments there now at this point. The comments were so wild, supportive, amazing. You could tell we were hearing from women and girls of all ages because there were the 20 something year olds being like, oh my gosh, who are these two bad asses, 50-year-old goals?

This is going to be us when we’re 50 goals, hashtag goals all over the place . so many women [00:16:00] like us or not like us, that were saying, these two are so relatable, they’re so funny. I wish my best friend like this. it was the comments that made us think and evaluate.

Should we maybe try to put up another video and see what happens? Which is exactly what we did. We made a second video shortly thereafter,

Nina: first you had to create the name so how did

Sunny: yeah.

Jenn: You are right.

Sunny: and this wasn’t the name.

Nina: Oh, it wasn’t.

Okay. What was it

Jenn: Yeah. Okay. So, because I really am not great on social media. I was really going through the struggles of being a Peloton instructor and figuring out how to really use social the way I needed to. a dear friend of mine, her name is Lindsay Pinchuk. After we went viral, I knew my friend Lindsay would be able to help me with what was going on, make sense of it all really.

when it blew up, I picked up the phone a, a day or two later, and I called Lindsay and said, we’re going viral on TikTok. I don’t even know what TikTok is. What do we do? should we make a TikTok? Should we open one and should we throw up another video? [00:17:00] We did skip that part of the story.

Good, catch. And she was like, absolutely, you are making a TikTok today. And I’m like, what are we calling it? And I said, do you like Pam and Jenn? Do like Sunny and Sherm?

Nina: That, that’s kind of cute,

Sunny: We love Sunny and Sherm, Lindsay was like, it sounds like a pet account.

Jenn: Shout out to Lindsay Pinchuk dear, found her. She was like, no, no, no. You’re not using Sunny and Sherm. How about Sunny and Jenn? She’s like, and if it doesn’t stick, if you don’t like it, you can always change it like a month from now. I guess when you create a name, you can’t change it right away.

we did make this account, I didn’t even know how to do it. My At the time, 15-year-old nephew, I was away in Nantucket. He made it for me. He opened up the account. and then when I got back home from Nantucket, Pam came over and we, made our second video and we put it up on our brand new account. And we explained to the people that we had just gone viral and we told our story of walking down the street in Palm Beach. And then that video went viral.

Nina: That’s the video that found me, not the original. [00:18:00] Then I saw the original after. because you know, it links to it down to the bottom. what year are we in? 2023.

Sunny: This happened 2023. It’s been two years

Nina: Can you guys believe how much has happened in two years? It’s like where the power of social media can be used for good instead of evil. Obviously it goes both ways. This is a good one because people like to see something positive. They actually do. It gives me hope in humanity. People see a friendship of two women in their fifties who are doing life together, but have their own lives too, and are successful, people like it. They’re cheering you on.

Jenn: They have been amazing. that’s how it blew up. it was reaction, just like you described, which is what prompted us to continue making these videos and, with no expectation, right? with no expectation. That’s the reason why. Zero. We didn’t know what we were doing technically.

We didn’t know what we were going to talk about, but we just said, let’s give this a whirl. it’s now two plus years later and it’s monetized into a business.

Don’t get into business with your friends is a very well known thing, but for us it has been just [00:19:00] amazing.

Sunny: But we’ve also said to each other, and we’ve said it numerous times, if this ever doesn’t feel right for one of us, if our friendship comes first and this goes away, and it’s been a great ride. We have both been on the same page with that from the get go. Every once in a while we say it to each other,

Jenn: we’re not willing to let anything get in the way of our friendship. This will go away by the end of this interview if we even thought that there was a threat of that.

Nina: You’re smart. You’re riding the wave while it’s fun, I know both of you have other jobs, and I assume that if this ever stops being fun, And always fun for the friendship and just like fun in a challenging way. because I know there’s challenges, but good challenges. I actually have this myself with the podcast and certain techie things and all kinds of stuff. I did my first live speaking thing over the summer and I know you guys have done speaking things. Those challenges are so good for us. It’s like good for the brain to like push yourself to do new things. And I see you guys are speaking. How do you decide where to go? How’s that working?

Sunny: Lindsay Pinchuk. It it’s really her, podcast [00:20:00] like on the Road

Jenn: and it’s her believing in us. It’s her seeing, you know, something that really was working. you know, it’s not this massive world. We’re not the Rolling Stones, you know, it’s not this massive worldwide tour or anything. we’re hitting Florida, the beginning of December, and that will be the fifth show and I don’t know if there’s more shows to come, but That has been really great. I’m used to speaking in public. I spend a lot of time on camera doing what I do for my day job. It has been so amazing watching Sunny walk out on stage to like a packed house and like getting out of, forget about getting outta your comfort zone, like getting out of your comfort zone and crushing it,

Sunny: it’s been amazing. This was a very, very new space for me in our first show. literally we were getting ready to walk on stage and I,

Jenn: Had a I don’t, I, I was like having, I was like, holy, Crap. Like, what is going on here? How did I get here?

Sunny: And I knew there was no turning back and my throat got dry. And she looked at me and she’s like, you’re going to be okay. You’re going to be okay. she was like my security blanket and I was like, I, I have [00:21:00] to do this. And, and this is how we do grow, but it’s easy to grow when you have best friend beside you, your biggest cheerleader saying You can do this and I believe in you. Or like, none of this would be happening. it’s been amazing. now I’m like a pro

Nina: Yeah.

Sunny: it, and now it’s really fun. I’m not scared anymore. I was, it’s scary. I don’t speak in front of people

Nina: I don’t know if you two realize as much as I do. Well, you probably do because you’re getting certain kinds of comments. A lot of what I hear about are people who feel their friends are there for them in hard times. The real struggle seems to be friends who show up for happy things. The way that you cheerlead each other should not be taken for granted.

Not saying you do, but like, if listeners out there, if you have a friend like that who really like with the way you said it, Jenn, how much you get joy and pride out of seeing other people react to Pam, who you call Sunny. Not everybody has that in them. And it kind of goes back to the Jimmy, what I was saying about Jimmy and the generosity he had and me kind of questioning [00:22:00] would a woman common friend have done the same thing? I would like to say many would, but many wouldn’t because there’s that scarcity thing. You are being happy for Pam.

I know Pam has not have been cheering you on all these years too, as like you’ve risen, Peloton

Jenn: Of course.

Nina: I just know

Sunny: That was my, and don’t get mad at me for saying this, Jenn. Jenn was the friend when she graduated college. She didn’t want to work. She was the friend who called in sick on Mondays and Fridays. She was that person. She tried to get me to do it with her. And I, I am like, nah, nah, that’s not, you know, I don’t, I don’t do that.

The minute she got pregnant, she quit her job. , So fast forward, she finds spinning. She’s so passionate about it. She becomes a teacher, locally , and she’s exploding. And, and I’m super proud of her. But when the whole Peloton piece happened she made all this magic happen for herself.

Nobody helped her. the real moment, Jenn, I dunno if you remember this, was it when you met, Eddie Veder and you met Howard Stern and you met Bruce Springsteen. Through Peloton, she was able to meet them up close and personal, and I said to her after each [00:23:00] one of these, I’m so proud of you. You did this all on your own. Nobody helped you I hope you’re so proud of yourself. because as a friend, I was like, look at you and I really do mean that. And you like, I’m so proud of her.

Jenn: knew what a miracle it is, that’s, that’s the best part no one even knows.

Sunny: because she found something that she loved and she was so passionate about and she was so good at it. And when you find something that you really love, it’s

Jenn: a big part of what we talk about on stage. I wasn’t passionate about a lot of things until I found what I was passionate about. it changed my life. just circling back quickly to you bringing up the point of me saying how much joy it brings me when people recognize Sunny on the street. because I do. And I love seeing her do her thing and loving it. I am fiercely defensive of Sunny. Not that I have to defend her often, but I’m like, forget about me, Sunny. And Jenn is about Sunny. She brings it all. She brings the fashion. Brings the Sunnyisms She’s the one that knows how Cook. She’s the one that knows how to garden. I don’t know how to do anything

Nina: She [00:24:00] tells us what to buy at Trader Joe’s like

Jenn: Correct?

Nina: oh, Sunny said this was a good cracker.

Okay, I am going to get it.

Jenn: Correct. there is no Sunny and Jenn without Sunny, and I mean that wholeheartedly. I don’t care if you’re a fan of Peloton, that that’s not what this is. This is Sunny and Jenn, and there is no Sunny and Jenn without what Sunny brings.

But in terms of keeping this on track about friendship. If you don’t have friends that do what Sunny and I do for each other, you gotta find some new friends, you gotta cut some ties especially I think as you get older and you’re starting to move through these different phases of life, boy doesn’t all this stuff become so much more crystal clear.

It’s one thing when we’re all running around in our twenties and our thirties and we don’t even know what we’re doing. when you get to a place where life feels just so sacred and fragile as it does now. Being the age that we are. Not that we don’t have a lot of life to live left because God willing we do. But come on, no time for that. Fewer friends, but quality friends,

Sunny: You know what I say? Addition by [00:25:00] subtraction.

Nina: I’m going to say a hard truth to add to that. people talk a lot. I know you guys see it too, on the internet and social media about subtracting, about toxic friends and narcissists and all this, and all those words come up a lot. One thing that’s really important. You first have to be the kind of friend, like it is our individual responsibility to be the kind of friend that cheers on your friends.

It starts with you. Like it really does. You guys might be a chicken egg situation. It’s hard to know which one of you like quickly and first demonstrated this kind of support. , And you might both be like that anyway, you know, but sometimes in a friendship, like I’m talking about other friends now, other dynamics, it just takes one person in the pair to make it clear like, hey. This is how we are, this is how this dynamic’s going to be. It has to start with you though. The letters the dear Nina, it’s my friend doesn’t do this for me. My friend doesn’t do that. My friend didn’t, doesn’t like my social media posts. I got a lot about that. All kinds of stuff. And it’s like, well, okay, first What are you doing as a friend? What tone have you set? I’m really into your own behavior is really the only thing we can control. And then, yes, if you do all the things and your friend just like [00:26:00] never can meet you there. I agree with you guys. More quality

Sunny: friends change and friends, you pull back and that’s okay. You don’t have to totally cut them off. But maybe you spend less time or people who maybe you’d love, traveling with you, don’t love traveling with them anymore, and that’s okay. You make adjustments?

Jenn: different friend for different reasons, and I’m sure you, you must talk about this there, this theme has to come up constantly. I would imagine with the women that you talk to when you’re talking about female friendship. It’s really hard to describe, really special female friendship, isn’t it? it’s unique special relationship unlike any other. And I really believe that. I go back to saying I may not have dozens and dozens of friends, close friends. I am just fine with that. I, I rather have the quality over the quantity. I feel like I know a lot of people, or should I say, a lot of people feel like they know me, but who do I really let in? who’s really going to be standing at the graveside of that funeral for someone that I love dearly. it’s a very small amount of people, [00:27:00] and I feel okay about that. I don’t need to have a million friends. I just want the ones that I have to be great. I expect a lot, but I know that I really do try to give a lot, and that’s important.

Nina: I want to move on to something else. So we’re going to go back in time a little bit There was a period of time where you weren’t empty nesters, where careers were at a different stage where you maybe didn’t have as much control over your time. Making time, and this is what I’m trying to get people to understand, is like the work it takes to stay friends, because I actually believe very much, that we can always make new friends.

And it’s important to allow yourself to have new parts of you matched with new friends. But the skillset it takes to actually have a longstanding friendship, as long as you guys, almost 40 years, right?

Sunny: More. yeah. 40.

Nina: yeah. people want that so badly and that’s why I want to go back in time a little bit because getting to 40 plus years took some things, and I know that there’s no way that every single second was perfect.

There were times you were super busy with life. let’s talk about making time balancing with other friends. I am sure there’s people jealous of this friendship, maybe that’s too hard to talk [00:28:00] about, but.

Sunny: going back, so I don’t know if you know this, Jenn and I have kids who are the exact same age. We had the same due date with our first kids.

Nina: Oh my God. I knew they were around the same age. I could tell, but I didn’t know that.

Sunny: I’m, I can picture a perfectly Jenn sitting on my couch and she goes, I have something to tell you. And I’m like, I have something to tell you. And she goes, I’m pregnant. And I’m like, so am I. And she’s like, let’s say our due date’s at the same time. And she goes, 1, 2, 3. And we go May 31st.

Jenn: Yep. it wasn’t planned. It was just, obviously that would be scary if it was.

Sunny: That’d be weird. It was not planned so having kids the same age was really great because We’d do a lot of things together with the kids. I remember when our little ones were very little. Jenn, remember we used to take them to the river palm for lunch. we would do anything to kill time.

Jenn wasn’t working. I was still working and Fridays was my day off and my day at home. we would always have plans that day. We would do beach days with the kids and then as the kids got older and they would be at camp. Even with our [00:29:00] jobs, we would always make our beach days in the summer we would go away for long weekends. We would do girls trips and we always celebrated birthdays. Not just with us but all our other friends. There was always a big birthday dinner whose ever birthday It was no matter how many kids you had, the husband the babysitter, you arranged that and had a lot of friends and there was a lot of birthdays

Jenn: something I feel like we, it wouldn’t be fair not to mention, for women out there who crave a friendship like this or wish that they had a friendship like this, we both recognize we’re really lucky. we live five minutes away from each other. I’ve heard from so many women who have witnessed our friendship saying, you know, I’ve got close friends and they live across the country. so we know that we have a leg up on that. we don’t live in the same town. I just want to let everyone know that, because people are curious about that. But we live one town away from each other. It takes me 10 minutes on

Sunny: Commits,

Jenn: day to get to Pam’s house and, and seven minutes on a good day if I’m not stuck behind a train or something, you know?

Sunny: like I, walked to Jenn’s house,

Nina: it’s huge. , All the [00:30:00] stuff that research has about friendship has been true for the two of you, but people can learn from it. So proximity is huge. I mean, it’s not just like a throwaway that actually, again, remember we talked about the 200 hours.

I mean, how do you think you get to those hours? You have to live by people but you can backtrack that meaning if you’re feeling in your life, like you don’t have a person that you can see a lot. I mean, you start from there. I tell people when they’re trying new things, like let’s say they go to a pickleball class and they really hit it off with someone. The truth is if that person lives 45 minutes away, even 30 minutes away.

Jenn: Not realistic.

Nina: look else like this is, you don’t have time for that. You need to find the pickleball person who lives 15 minutes, 10 minutes. Sometimes you just have to reverse it and say, I’m looking for someone who lives close. And then the other textbook thing, you guys have done those Fridays when your kids were young, that you took off together. Again, this is not a throwaway thing. Scheduling is actually the key.

Jenn: Even to this day, Pam says, if we don’t put it in the book, if we don’t plan it, we’re not going to do it.

Sunny: I am a big scheduler and we would say like, oh my God, the weather looks great. The Thursday you want to go to the beach. We still don’t even [00:31:00] do that now, but with the kids, we’re like, oh, it’s apple picking season. I would be like, what do you got? What are you doing Sunday? You want to take the kids apple picking? And we did so many things with the kids. which was really great.

Jenn: but it was on us, as we were entering that stage where we both were settled down in a suburb. You know, we both had lived in New York City, we moved out to the suburbs. We wound up, you know, 10 minutes away from each other. That’s all great. the onus is on you to go out there and make some other friends though.

So we did have each other. It’s like having your best friend and your wingman. But we both made other great friends. our friend group was this large, we kind of all co-existed. A lot of that is still intact. Some of that has changed because that does happen over the years, as we know, for better or for worse.

And We’re still so close with so many of our friends that we met when our children were all in baby class together, and we make an effort. We really make an effort to, to try to keep up with those friendships. You have to make an effort. It’s not going to happen on its own.

Nina: You cannot wish a friendship into existence. You can’t be

like, oh, I, no, you [00:32:00] have to reach out I mean, every Monday it’s this, group that we have, there’s like five of us and it’s like, who’s around for coffee this week? And we do that a lot and the other day, Jenn was meeting a friend of ours, I’m like, I’m only around for a half hour. But guess what I did? I went there for

Sunny: the half hour

Nina: I hope people are taking this in. it’s making the plans, it’s putting it in the calendar. It’s showing up, not flaking out all the time. I, obviously, things happen, but it’s showing up most of the time. It really is basic like that

Sunny: no one says, Ugh, I don’t feel like coming to coffee. I’m not coming. It’s because you have something else. Right. Jenn?

Jenn: for sure. Because I think that circles back to having quality friends

Sunny: and we love it and it’s so much, it’s you catch up. We also were in the phase of of our life we were becoming empty nesters when COVID happened and we, that I really, really missed. In person with friends. I mean, we did some crazy stuff. Lawn chairs in front of each other’s houses with glasses of wine, anything to see each other, walks outside. But that the [00:33:00] socialization, that was really hard. I am a social person. I don’t really even want to talk on the phone. I want to see you in person. I, I love that. If I love you, I, I want to like hug you and kiss you and like this.

Nina: That is beautiful. two more things. Well, three. are your husband’s friends?

Sunny: Our husbands, our friends,

Nina: helpful.

Sunny: it is helpful, but Life has changed a lot for all of us and our kids. You know, Jenn has a boy and a girl. I have two girls. So when the kids got a little older, you know, they get very involved with sports and they have a different life. my husband travels a lot for work and our husbands have different interests and stuff. They’re, they’re like family. We’ve been around each other for so long and been through highest of highs and the lowest of lows and. to be totally

Jenn: don’t spend a ton of time alone on their own, but together it’s like family. Um, Sunny’s

Sunny: It’s been so many years,

Jenn: doesn’t golf. They’re like little things, you know, that, you know, all

Sunny: it’s

Jenn: [00:34:00] feel like family.

Sunny: yes, it’s family. Like my kids, you know, it’s Auntie Jenn, it’s Aunt Pam, you know, that’s what it is. Like, hi and Pam. and that is just like.

Jenn: the best.

Sunny: The best. it’s trickled down to our kids, our kids, while they might not see each other all the time to speak to each other. Like when we did our show, apparently there was a group chat going on with the four of them, making fun of us actually. Yeah. we were dying and, and I love that my daughter, older daughter was at the show, so she sent a video clip in a group chat with them, and then it, they were laughing and then we read and we were laughing and it was, I was like, this is a gift.

Nina: Yes,

Sunny: This is a gift.

Nina: we’re going to get to the most important part in the final question, when there’s an issue, it comes up because friendships are made up of human beings. Even best friendships are made up of two people who are human and therefore imperfect.

So of course, as things are going to come up. You’re still friends 40 years later, so obviously you’ve handled it. What is the key to getting through that? You bring it up. What do you let go?

Sunny: communication. another [00:35:00] Sunnyism: if you sweep it under the rug, you know what? You end up with a really lumpy rug,

Jenn: rug, A lumpy rug, it doesn’t go away. I always say to Jenn, I’ve been saying it for years, and sometimes she’s probably ready to punch me in the face. there are so many things in life that we can’t control but you can control saying to a friend, I didn’t like when you did that. You hurt my feelings. but if you’re not going to say that, then shame on you. And, and then you end up being resentful and it builds up and it doesn’t go away. And then something silly happens, and that’s the straw that broke the camel’s back. And then you’re so upset. Not about that, but about something else. You have to say to your friends, I love you so much, but I didn’t like when you did that. Or, And I do that. I really

Sunny: do that,

Jenn: I don’t want it to sound like to your viewers at Unrealistic. We’ve had things over 40 years. Not that I can, but I’m going to be really honest. I don’t remember the last one. It’s been years since we’ve had hard [00:36:00] conversations.

Sunny: this must be 10 years ago there was something going on with us.

Jenn: I remember when I forgot Sunny’s surgery. Was it that when he

Sunny: Oh no. I don’t know what happened, but all I know is that I, I think I was like, I was upset with Jenn about something. So what I used to do

Jenn: Big shot. Tell him

Sunny: What I used to do, and I don’t do it anymore. When I was upset about something, I would not take the person’s phone calls and I would be very distant and I would be very cold. cause

Nina: So many people do that, that’s extremely common.

Sunny: she showed up on my driveway.

Nina: Jenn, I love this.

Jenn: came over. Do you remember

Nina: You were like, we’re not doing this.

Sunny: she showed up in my driveway she’s like, you’re not taking my phone calls.

Jenn: I drove to her house. I had a pit in my stomach. When you think you’ve heard a friend or let down a friend, if you don’t feel awful about it, there’s also something wrong. And I couldn’t take one more day of her not answering my calls. again, very lucky because of our location that I was able to do that. Not everyone can do that. I got in the car and I drove to her [00:37:00] house and I banged down her front door,

Sunny: and said, you know what, you’re not going to, because I would i’m like, I can’t talk or I’d be very short i’m not, proud of that behavior and I realize who is benefiting from that? Nobody because I was sick about it, that I was having to be this way and, you know you’re going to make up, right? You’re not going to stay in a fight forever. So like why waste that time?

Nina: I say that all the time. get to it.

Sunny: Time is so precious. So now it’s like, you know what? I didn’t like when you did that. I can’t even, no.

Jenn: beautiful little sidebar that it doesn’t really happen often with us, but we know how to handle it if it does.

Sunny: We tell each other. No, I don’t want to do that, or I’m not doing that. Or I say, yeah, you are doing that

Nina: hope you don’t mind that I’m like constantly analyzing your friendship, to affirm what you already know.

part of probably why doesn’t come up so much anymore. After this point all these years, you probably subconsciously just let a lot of things go. because you accept each other and love each other so much. You kind of go, okay, sunny always has to drive, or I

Jenn: Yeah.

Nina: one

Sunny: It’s me. Yeah. Yes, exactly. So it’s things that we don’t care [00:38:00] enough about If someone really cares. You really want to go there for dinner or you really want to do this? I don’t really care that Right? Shortlist of what really matters.

Jenn: If there’s real issues, that’s going to get talked about and that’s what every good friend should feel comfortable. Even if it’s not easy and it’s not comfortable, you gotta do it.

Sunny: We’re pretty agreeable with each other. If there’s a super strong opinion about something, that person unless it’s clearly ridiculous and not valid, and the other person’s like, okay, fine. Let’s do that. Who cares?

Nina: Yeah.

Jenn: Pretty, we’re pretty easy going and we know each other really

Sunny: yes.

Jenn: years does do.

Nina: you get to know each other. You look over things that don’t matter that much. And my mom always gave me that advice too. She’s 80 And she’s maintained a lot of friendships for many, many years. And that’s always been her big thing too, whoever cares more. Same in marriage, by the way. So sometimes one person cares more and you’re like, okay, like everyone doesn’t have to win everything. Sometimes you

Jenn: and choose, right? If it does, it just, you gotta be able to weigh

Sunny: Exactly. It’s about picking and choosing. My outlook on friendship is very different at [00:39:00] 58 than it was even at 38. I always put a lot of stock and friendship if I love you, I love you with every ounce of blood inside of me.But if I don’t, like, I don’t, I don’t have space, there’s no room filler here. But the older you get, you realize how Important these good friends are they’re little treasures I know, I’m so lucky to have and I will take care of them, and even it means not doing something I want to do or vice versa. But it’s to do it for a friend. Just to be with them

Nina: we have to be inconvenienced.

Jenn: into the old age home together. We’ve already decided Yeah. I mean we, it’s, it would be so easy. God willing, why wouldn’t we?

Nina: That was potentially a good last word, but I just wanted to give you each a chance if there’s like a final thing you just want to say to the listeners who are hoping to be able to maintain a friendship for as long as you both have.

Jenn: You’ve gotta nurture it. It sounds like such a cliche. You’ve got to nurture it. To have a great friend is to be a great friend and it really is, uh, as true as it gets. Sometimes it takes years and it takes a little wisdom to [00:40:00] realize, you can’t be selfish if you’re expecting amazing friendship. You’ve gotta be able to deliver and have your heart in the right place when it comes to the people in your life that really matter.

Sunny: but also another thing I want to say it doesn’t have to be the 40 year friendship. Yes. this is special. But I have really have been super lucky in the past few years through my kids and their college experiences. And I met one woman in particular who was my daughter’s roommate in college.

The daughter was in the remit and we just met. And I say to her, I feel like, I grew up with her. Our values align. She always says the right thing, and we don’t live near each other and we don’t speak all the time, but the comfort level I have with her, and she’s the biggest cheerleader and she’s a well wisher and she’s funny and she’s smart and, so it doesn’t have to be 40 years is what I’m trying to say.

If you are open to meeting new people and seeing people who are like you and like-minded, they’re out there

Jenn: By the way, not everybody is, [00:41:00] not everybody is open to new friendship. We know,

Nina: right.

Jenn: sure you right. You know this. There are people that say, this stage my life, I’m not looking for new friends.

Sunny: I wasn’t looking for this friend. You know, I, I always say to her I wasn’t looking for a new friend and you came along. She’s like my bonus friend.

Nina: you guys, this was so fun for me it’s amazing to watch somebody for a couple years and feel like you know them, but then get the chance to actually ask the questions you want to ask.

Like a lot of people probably talk to you about business and all kinds of things. We did a little, but my passion is helping people with their friendships, people struggling out there. So this is really great advice. I appreciate it so much.

Sunny: is ever listening. Who’s in the Miami area on Thursday, December 4th, we have Dear founder Lindsay Pinchuk, she’s the moderator. Sunny and Jenn are are the guests and it is, I mean, men are welcome to come, but it really is a GNO and it is a fun girls night out if you guys dunno what G know is and it’s Talking about friendship and going through [00:42:00] this stage of life, you know, forties, fifties, and a lot of like-minded women come to these events and they all start talking and everyone’s laughing and

Jenn: It’s a great night out.

Nina: It looks. like so much fun. You were in Chicago not that long before I did my show in Chicago and, as I told Pam Jenn, I’m from Highland Park. I live in Minneapolis, so that’s why I did my show in Highland Park too, and I was like, oh, I should be there. And then my assistant producer came to your Bethesda show and then she was the one, I will say she pushed me, Rebecca I’ve been talking about you guys for a while and she’s not really on social media, but she knows about you from me and she’s like, Nina, They said in that show that they’re open to more podcasts. This is the time.

Sunny: Yes.

Nina: I’m like, okay. So

Jenn: We are, we’re thrilled that you asked us. This was a

Sunny: Yes, we are.  the feedback from these shows, these women, they have fun, they’re smiling, they’re laughing. We, we all need that. The smiling, laughing Yes. out. Treat yourself. We all need to do more of it. No downside to that.

Nina: go see Sunny and Jenn. In person. And I’m going to tell you too, how [00:43:00] I end every single episode. And most guests agree. I tell everyone to come back next week because when our friendships are going well, we are happier all around.

Sunny: Aw. Thank you. so much. Yeah, so nice meeting you, Nina.

Jenn: Nice to meet you.