Nina: Welcome to Dear Nina, conversations about friendship. I am your host, Nina Badzin. I’ve been writing about friendship for over a decade, podcasting about it for over four and a half years, and I need you to know that I had to rerecord this intro because of all of the Ashley Tisdale drama going on all over the internet.

A lot of you, will not know what I’m talking about, but some of you will. And if I didn’t rerecord this intro to address it, it would’ve been the elephant in the room because my episode is with Dr. Noelle Santorelli, who specializes in mean mom behavior and relational aggression in a lot of the things that have been covered in this article. I am going to link a version of the article that you can read yourself, because the version that was in the cut is very hard to access.

Basically, Ashley Tisdale is an actress. She was in high school musical, among other things. She wrote an article titled Breaking Up with My Toxic Mom Group. That right there is [00:01:00] a great title, right? Very clickable, breaking up with My Toxic Mom group. People wanted to hear about that. Who was this mom group? Are they other celebrities? The chatter on the internet, although she never says it in the article, to her credit, never says who the people are.

People assume that it is Hillary Duff and Mandy Moore. We really don’t know.

One thing Ashley noted is that this was a tight group of moms when the kids were little, and over time she started to feel not a part of things. She would notice that she wasn’t invited. She would see stuff on Instagram that she never knew about. People would talk about stuff in front of her if she was at an event.

They didn’t talk to her as much. finally over time, she left the mom group. She texted the group, and these are not her exact words, but something along the lines of, this is too high school for me. I don’t want to be part of it anymore.

And then some of the moms tried to apologize and say uh, she was misinterpreting things and one sent her flowers, but then when ashley went to thank her for the flowers the mom didn’t write back. I have so many feelings on this and some of it comes out in this episode with Dr. Noel. So we talked [00:02:00] about relational aggression, which is the stuff that is coming up about this big article.

Why do people react so much to this article? ’cause I think people see themselves on both sides of this though. Because now there’s all these videos coming out after the cut article it was her behavior. She’s impossible, she’s difficult. And these moms were just trying to find a way to give her the hint that it’s not working anymore.

it begs the question, ’cause we all can see ourselves on both sides, I think. If you are friends with somebody and it’s not working out, do you need to be friends forever? If you connected in your twenties, your thirties, do you to be close friends through your nineties? God willing, you live a long life because you were friends in your twenties or your thirties.

now? Of course if this is relational aggression and mean behavior, then what Ashley’s describing is very cruel. If it is that Ashley did a bunch of things and has no self-awareness about it, it’s like we just don’t know. We only have one side of the story,

I just wanted to acknowledge Yes. I’m answering all of your dms on Instagram. Yes, I [00:03:00] saw the article. It was important to mention before the rest of this episode it would seem oddly tone deaf if I didn’t, because the episode is about mean mom culture, the difference between being mean and not necessarily wanting to be friends with somebody and those aren’t the same thing. And I think that is what sometimes is missing in these conversations. It is not mean to not connect with somebody. people really do need to let that in. somebody is not a mean horrible person because you didn’t really connect and it didn’t work out.

I do think in a case where you’re friends for a very long time and you don’t wanna be friends anymore, this comes up a lot in my Facebook group, we talk about whether it’s kinder to ghost, quiet, quit have the conversation.

A long term friend deserves a conversation. I am not saying that’s easy. It’s quite difficult. Pretty rare. People tend to mostly quiet quit, meaning they stop texting back as much. Really what Ashley noticed, they don’t invite you to as many things, and I don’t just mean in a group, even just one-on-one.

I want to get to the [00:04:00] episode with Noelle. You were going to hear my original introduction that I did when we recorded, which was before the article came out. Now I feel it is up to date with this new intro. Let’s get to it.

. Today’s episode is one I’ve been waiting to do for such a long time. I’m a fan. Feels like a strange thing to say about a clinical psychologist, she has amazing information and posts on Instagram.

Frankly, that’s where I found her and heard her on other shows, and I knew that the Dear Nina audience would want to hear from Dr.

Noelle Santorelli. She specializes in mean girls, mean girls and motherhood, mean girl moms, and not just girls, there’s boy stuff too, but she focuses a lot on adults and particularly mothers. Dr. Santorelli has spent the past 14 years in private practice and holds a position of adjunct faculty at Emory School of Medicine in the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral [00:05:00] Sciences.

In her practice, she specializes in working with high achieving women who have experienced early trauma or grew up in dysfunction, toxic family environments, often with emotionally immature or narcissistic parents.

And she also has a deep expertise in relational aggression, which is what we talk about a lot today.

She says it like it is. Let’s see if we can make this world a more comfortable place for everybody, although as we will talk about it is almost impossible, but it doesn’t mean we can’t do better.

hi, Dr. Noelle Santorelli. Welcome to Dear

Dr. Noelle: I’m excited to be here,

Nina: It would be amazing if I could have had you in my life when my kids were coming up, although there’s still things I can learn from and plan to in this episode.

Dr. Noelle: Thank you so much for having me I started this whole journey because I needed me many years ago. when I first entered into the world of parenting and motherhood and friendships, that’s when I noticed it was an area of friendship that I wasn’t really expecting or had dealt [00:06:00] with before. so I started talking about it to give other women resources and tools that I wish I had had. Even as a clinical psychologist, I was having trouble finding resources to deal with what I was, seeing or observing.

Nina: What I love about what you do is that you really name things that we all are seeing. It’s like we know it when we see it. sometimes we don’t have the exact words for it, or we have words that are overused and they don’t mean anything to us anymore. Like even the expression mean girls sometimes gets thrown around so much, and the first one I wanna talk about is I think you’re the first person I’ve seen use it, which is relational aggression. And I would love for you to just explain it. ’cause I know when listeners hear it, they’re gonna just be nodding and being like, oh yes, that’s what I see. I didn’t have a name

for it.

Dr. Noelle: And that’s, that’s the underpinning. You’re exactly right. Sometimes we use the word mean girl that is just sort of pop culture wording for relational aggression. So what relational aggression is when we use our relationships to manipulate or harm someone else [00:07:00] or someone else’s standing within a group dynamic.

that can be things like using gossip, using triangulation, so trying to, you know, pit a couple people against each other. it could be exclusion or it could be strategic withholding. And we can get more into that later. Like what exactly that looks like and what exactly that means.

Nina: Yes, I would like to.

Dr. Noelle: yeah, so that’s one that’s, pretty common in, parenthood actually, and

it’s using those, using hot one day cold another day, using techniques like that to change or manipulate how you are seen by others or how you’re seen within a specific relationship. That’s relational aggression. Another word sometimes you might hear it called is covert bullying.

Nina: when you see that people are doing these things, is it relational aggression or covert bullying, if they’re doing it on purpose as opposed to they don’t even know they’re doing it.

And how do we know the

Dr. Noelle: Absolutely. So [00:08:00] I think it’s hard to know another person’s intent, Unless we ask them. And oftentimes the person doing the covert bullying or relational aggression, they may not know that they’re doing it or that what they’re doing would be considered relational aggression or a form of covert bullying or relational bullying.

when we engage in these behaviors, they’re covert because they’re different than overt. overt aggression or overt bullying is physical mostly, or I’m gonna call you a specific name. That is much easier to confront, Everybody knows harm was done by me to you. I hit you. I called you a name. I said something that is blatantly, not really accepted. Covert is I might say to you, Nina, I can’t believe you’re wearing that. I couldn’t do that.

Nina: Oh, that’s good. I like, yes, I mean I like that as an example. ’cause it’s understandable and I bet the overt [00:09:00] probably is happening when kids are

younger and then all the way through our nineties. It’s the covert

Dr. Noelle: covert. It’s insidious, so you don’t really know. Was that just meant as a compliment, or was that meant as a dig? Right. It’s insidious, so, oh wow. I can’t believe you’re wearing that. I could never, or you’re so brave to let your kid have that much screen time.

Nina: Oh

Dr. Noelle: It’s those types of things. And so what ends up happening is because it’s covert, it’s insidious, it’s under the radar to some degree.

The person who wants to call it out can look like they’re being dramatic, too sensitive. starting drama. I’ve heard that a lot. Like, why do you have to start drama? we end up engaging in what I like to call self gaslighting. we know that didn’t feel good, or every time I’m with that person, I feel upset or I, question myself or I question something that was said, and we start to second guess ourselves.

where [00:10:00] we’re not quite sure what’s happening, but we know we don’t feel good. That’s

Nina: Oh, you know what I call it? the word I use when I feel I’m in these situations you feel like you’re on the defense all the time, the. You have to be on guard, and so you leave that interaction exhausted.

Where with other people, you don’t have that guard up, so you’re more relaxed. But it’s something to pay attention to. When I leave a place feeling like, oh my God. Like I had to really be on, I had to react to things like you said, oh, you’re so brave too.

I mean, no one has literally said that, but that kind of thing. where it’s, they’re kind of a dropping a little turd, I call it too, but it’s dressed up with a little bow on it so you don’t quite know.

Dr. Noelle: the type of situation that, you know, it’s kind of like the dripping faucet. If there’s a drip in your faucet, it’s that kind of annoying thing where you’re like, Ugh, I gotta fix that. Or Ugh, is that dripping again? And you kind of leave it, but before you know it, that entire sink can fill up and you’ve got a whole flood that then you have to deal with.

But oftentimes we don’t realize it’s [00:11:00] a real problem until the water has flooded or there’s some sort of huge mess. So it’s kind of like the slow drip of a toxic relationship. And I do, lemme say, I hate the word toxic. I hate the word toxic

relationships. I’m over

Nina: Is it just that It’s overused. So we again, kind of like we don’t know what it means

Dr. Noelle: Correct. Like I, I’m over it. So I don’t like to say toxic relationships, but it’s that slow drip where you’re suddenly in a relationship and you’re like, when did it get this bad? When did it start? When did I start feeling so uncomfortable? When did I start having anxiety before showing up? Wondering what to wear, wondering what to say.

Did I say too much? Did I say too late? It’s exhausting.

Nina: Yes.

Dr. Noelle: And so oftentimes when people come in and tell me those are the thoughts they’re having or the feelings they’re having after interacting with certain people, that’s when I start looking at is there some degree of relational aggression going on or covert bullying going on?

Is this more strategic, whether it is conscious or [00:12:00] subconscious in the person doing it, is there some relational aggression going on? and our job isn’t often a figure out is the other person doing it on purpose? Because what I try to tell my clients is what matters is how you feel and how you wanna respond to those situations.

Not how can we change the other person doing the behavior they’re doing ’cause we can’t control that.

Nina: I don’t wanna blame the victim or anything ’cause I know it’s gonna sound this way, but my feeling is that people get into friendships like this they don’t usually start this way completely, but there might have been some of this from the get go, but there’s a certain desperation, for lack of a better word, to get into a certain group or, and this is a lot of what I wanna get into.

people want their kids to be part of a certain group and we train the kids to just put up with a certain amount of this stuff from the get go. It’s not that it got this way, it always was this way and we didn’t teach them to not tolerate it. Like you said, don’t make waves and don’t start drama.

You [00:13:00] sometimes you just have to let things go. I do believe you can’t bring everything up, but if you’re seeing this stuff pretty quickly, this is not the right group for you as, as a parent or a person. You don’t have to be a parent just as a human or your kid.

Dr. Noelle: again, it starts as that like slow drip. It’s that leaky faucet. It’s always been there, but you don’t really notice it until it gets to the point where you can’t tolerate it anymore or it gets so uncomfortable you have to fix it. That’s when it gets to the point where things are blatantly being done, even though it’s still covert.

that’s when we might notice it when all of a sudden you know, and I get this all the time, people are scrolling social media and they see a big group outing and pictures of everyone at the outing, but they were never asked to go

Nina: That’s right. And you’re talking about

adults. too. I wanna be

Dr. Noelle: Oh, yes. Just to be clear, I’m talking about parents, mothers, women that are saying, oh my gosh, they all had secret Santa Night or holiday gift exchange and I wasn’t included and I [00:14:00] really thought I was part of that group.

That’s when they start to think, I need to do something about this. This doesn’t feel right. it’s usually that little drip backhanded compliments gossip, someone being hot and cold. Those little more sneaky things where you can’t call them out, and then there’s something a little more dramatic, like a big group outing that you weren’t included in.

That’s usually the impetus for someone saying, okay, now I know something’s off, but I still don’t know how to say anything and I still don’t know how to fix it.

Nina: how would a person, an adult deal with a situation where it’s kind of clear they’re not included, they, they’re really not part of it. And this is the stuff that really I struggle with personally and when I’m helping other people, which is I don’t know that they should necessarily address it if really they do not fit in.

And this is where I wanna get into fitting in versus really fitting in and belonging versus just being included. is it ever possible the person wasn’t kind of getting the [00:15:00] clue along the way that this, group already is full. I’ve had it happen to me. Like I have definitely taken a longer time than I probably should have to realize oh, these people do not wanna be friends with me.

and I just didn’t quite get it. And in fairness to them, they had their plates full or they, I’m thinking about when I first moved here and 20 some years ago, I was in my twenties. it took me a long time to not have a chip on my shoulder about it. I think 20 some years ago, I would’ve been like, they’re bullies.

They’re mean, they’re this. And now that I’ve lived here all this time, I’m like, Hmm. Maybe from the get go, they were trying to let me know. We’re good. and if I’d gotten that earlier, they wouldn’t have had to do the little things like have the gift groups without me and stuff, because we can’t have everyone.

So this is the stuff we have to talk

Dr. Noelle: right. And see it on both sides, So I absolutely see , real relational aggression, where there are techniques that are being used to strategically control relationships and ingroup versus outgroup, for what I like to say is secondary [00:16:00] gain, what the person is gaining from having you in or out. There’s something to be, gained there. Usually it has to do with control, power, and social standing, but then we have other situations. Which people don’t love talking about and I understand that you are just not a fit.

Nina: This is uncomfortable, but I wanna talk about it.

Dr. Noelle: right. You’re just not a fit for the group. And I think that was part of probably what I was dealing with, whether it was me or my child when I was dealing with some of this stuff, is maybe they were trying to drop hints along the way and maybe I so desperate to belong new to motherhood first rodeo.

Maybe I didn’t pick up on them. I like to see both sides, right? It’s always very nuanced and I think at the end of the day, the most important thing that we can do to sort of not control the outcome, but to understand better, is to look at our why. why am I trying to be in this group?

Do I enjoy being with them? Do I share values? Do I share [00:17:00] beliefs? Do I share, things outside of the social status or grouping, like we go to the same school or we’re on the sports team. Do we actually share things outside of that that make me want to be friends with this person? Or do I think I should be or have to be friends with this person or group?

And that’s when I think that tension that you’re talking about starts to develop. Where sometimes we want to be a part of something because we share, something in common, but we really aren’t a part of that group. And then it becomes, is the group being mean or are the people being mean, or are they just kind of trying to give you the hint that it’s not quite that belonging?

And this is where I think we really have to talk to our children as well.

Nina: Yes, and I see resentment grow. I’ve had people talk to me about stuff that happened 20 years ago to them and talk to me over and over about it and this like, they resent these people for not liking them. And I think rejection is just so hard for all of us and there might not have been a great [00:18:00] reason for the rejection or maybe there isn’t a self-awareness of why this group, wasn’t into, but.

Maybe I’m not as sensitive as I should be, but a big part of me wants to be like, are you telling me person who’s complaining to me that you have never just not gelled with someone? Everyone should like you, but you get to decide who you connect with.

Dr. Noelle: There is some of that. And as a psychologist who, you know, I’ve historically and primarily worked with a lot of personality disorders and narcissism. I see it on both sides, so I see a lot of what, and I’m not saying that someone’s a narcissist if they want to be included in everything, but, there are personality types that expect to be given grace on both ends, but don’t wanna do it in return.

So that is out there as well. I think at the end of the day, reflecting on what you personally want from the group experience or from the relationship and what you’re getting is a step that we don’t really think of. we jump into friendships different than [00:19:00] romantic relationships, which I find so fascinating.

Mostly, we don’t see people jumping into romantic relationships. . There’s a courting period, there’s a dating period, there’s

Nina: Oh yes.

Dr. Noelle: let’s see if we, if we really gel, let’s see if our value is are aligned. Let’s see if we can enjoy a coffee and then a dinner. There’s sort of a slow progression, but if you notice, I’m sure you have, with friendships, we sort of throw all of that reasoning, We just jump in emotionally. We don’t really use logic or reasoning with friendships. We’re just in

Nina: I think there’s a lot what you said earlier, like we see same school, same sports team, like all these things that we think, similar background. There’s a lot more to life than just that one part of us. I love what you said about, you know, what are you looking for out of this friendship and what might the person be getting, like it has to work on.

All ends. Talk to me about love bombing. I’ve heard you talk about that. ’cause I think that’s a really good, both in dating but in friendship really more

Dr. Noelle: Right. And I [00:20:00] think that that speaks to the idea of us sort of unconsciously or just sort of, you know, I do a lot of dialectical behavior therapy where we talk about different states of mind. So we talk about an emotion mind and a logic mind. And then a wise mind is the intersect between your logic mind and your emotional mind.

We shouldn’t jump into any relationships in emotion mind. We know better intellectually not to do that with romantic relationships. It feels risky to just jump in too fast. We don’t really get that message about friendships. I was never taught that about friendships. I now teach it to my kids about friendships.

But when we first meet friends, we can sometimes be in the stage of love bombing. Sometimes it’s mutual where you’re so excited. We live in the same neighborhood. Our kids go to the same school, same age, we’re both, whatever religious background we should be best friends. It seems like a perfect puzzle piece fit, and so love [00:21:00] bombing can come from both sides.

And it wouldn’t necessarily be called love bombing at that point. I would just call that emotional intensity at the excitement of a new relationship. When it’s more one-sided, sometimes it’s part of a pathological pattern that of course we see with narcissistic relationships. So love bombing comes from the classic narcissistic relationship

between traditionally a man and a woman where one of the, the two in the dating relationship starts intensely jumping in and just peppering you with praise and love, and you’re the best thing I’ve, that’s ever happened to me. We should get married, we should move in together. We should spend every time together.

Let’s grocery shut. Right? It’s like it constant texting, calling, planning. But this can also happen in friendships. Now, it doesn’t mean if you love bomb someone, you have narcissism or you have a narcissistic personality. But traditionally, that’s where the word comes from and where we see that behavior. I do [00:22:00] believe we’re living in more and more of a narcissistic culture in general.

Not from a pathological standpoint, but from a, we’ve all become very, self-focused and individualistic, which breeds that type of behavior. And so sometimes when you’re getting into a friend group or a new friendship, you can be met with love bombing, which I always say, let’s take a pause and let’s think about this.

It doesn’t mean anyone’s bad, it doesn’t mean it’s destined to be a bad relationship, but you should always pause before getting in too deep into any relationship, whether that’s a friendship or a romantic relationship.

Nina: This is such good advice for college freshmen, by the way. or , when you’re starting anything like freshman year of high school, like any new experience. It’s quick, quick, quick. These friendships are so intense.

And then the roommate process, like senior year of high school. They’re looking for a roommate and they’re looking for it exactly the way that you are describing.

. We have these sameness, [00:23:00] we’re same in this way, same in that way, there’s just more to think about, and no one even talks about the stuff that actually matters.

Dr. Noelle: So when we see ourselves mirrored in another person, that’s very comforting for us because as humans, we thrive on connection and belonging. If I like what I’m seeing in you because you are this, this, this, and this, that. I also am then that makes me feel good about me because you’re mirroring what I am and you look pretty good to me.

it’s this kind of, instant gratification of I’m okay ’cause you’re okay. it sort of affirms who we are and our standing. It’s safety if you really think about it.

Nina: Oh, that makes a lot of sense. So you’re on the receiving end of maybe a lot of intensity and you’re giving it off too, I like that advice. Just slow down and maybe think of your history. Like how many times have you had this intense kind of friendship that didn’t quite go well?

let’s maybe not do that every

Dr. Noelle: Right. And I, do think, I hope we [00:24:00] are starting to have more conversations about what we want out of friendships. I feel like it’s pretty traditionally talked about what do you want out of a romantic relationship? Be careful he’s coming on strong, she’s coming on strong.

Does she have other friends or are you her only relationship? Does she have a life outside of you or does he have a, you know, we talk to our kids even about those types of dynamics. Be careful. Don’t move too fast physically or emotionally. I think we need to have those same conversations about friendships and friend groups.

Nina: yes. Wait, I am so glad you brought up this exact point on the way we talk to kids and, and each other, the way we give their friends advice, you know, our own peers about dating. This is okay, maybe gonna be a hot take and it maybe goes against some of what you talk about and Instagram, even though I really am on the same page as you.

But where I get. Tripped up. It’s funny, you and I have talked about this a little bit in Instagram comments too, is the push to teach our kids to, I’m not saying the push is from you, I’m saying from society in general [00:25:00] to be kind, include there’s always room at the table kind of this, and I, you know, as a mom of four kids, I always want my kids to be kind and all of this at the same time.

It gets tricky if we’re always telling our kids, you always have to include someone. You always have to be the kind one. We would never say that to them about dating. We would never say, every time that boy wants to hang out with you, you have to say yes. We wouldn’t, we would, we would teach them to have some agency.

But I know it’s not apples to apples, but I do think certain kinds of kids who are more prone to worrying what others think. Not wanting to hurt feelings, like those could be good things.

It’s good to worry about people’s feelings, but when it’s so much to the point that they’re always afraid someone’s mad at them, including the other adults. The teachers are mad at them, the other parents are mad at them. I mean, I hear the way parents talk about other people’s kids, and this one’s a mean girl, and this one’s a, it’s were they a mean girl?

Is part of what I wanted to get into? Or is this a kid who, doesn’t wanna always be with 20 people all the time? Or does this mom not wanna host? [00:26:00] Okay, they already have, 10 kids sleeping over for Halloween, let’s say, should that mom be expected to have 20 kids? And if she doesn’t, she’s the mean girl

Dr. Noelle: Right. No. Yes and no.

Nina: Okay, let’s

deal. Let’s deal.

Dr. Noelle: this is where it gets complicated and tricky and I hate that. I have to be seen as like, and I don’t have to be, I try to show both sides. I think every relationship is complex and nuanced. You cannot have a relationship. You certainly can’t have a friend group or multiple relationships that are not complicated and nuanced, right?

That’s the psychology of it. We are animals. we are human beings, but at the end of the day, we are animals and we have animalistic behaviors. It’s not black and white, There’s a lot of gray. if I can get anything across to your listeners or to people that follow me, it’s take a pause and let’s not react.

Let’s work through some things before we’re quick to react because we wanna give grace we wanna be thoughtful. So we wanna give grace to if someone hosts a party one time [00:27:00] and they can only have five people. They can only have five people. Maybe they only have capacity for five people emotionally and logistically.

Right? Maybe they don’t have space for more. we don’t wanna instantaneously react or overreact. ’cause what happens is we tend to overreact when we, we react quickly. on one hand we can’t be expecting everyone to have 20 people all the time. Everyone can’t be included all the time. That’s just a fact of life, period.

What I don’t like is when we get into the strategic withholding that we were talking about earlier. Okay? So , I don’t have 20 people. Well, sometimes my kids wanna have very large parties, but that’s another topic for another day. But you know, a sleepover a junior high, right? You can’t have 20 people at a sleepover, and that’s okay, but when the person excluded is chronically the same person, or the [00:28:00] uninclusive is based on something that happened that the person hosting didn’t like.

You can uninvite people if you don’t like something they’ve done, but a conversation should happen first. that’s usually my, take is that we don’t like to tolerate distress, so we withhold relational things instead of communicating what actually hurt.

Nina: Oh yeah, that’s well said. It’s like a It’s, yes. So there’s two sides.

Dr. Noelle: One is we can’t include everyone all the time. That’s life. And I think we should be comfortable saying things like, Hey, I can only have six kids at my sleepover. These are the six kids that are coming. And you’re open, you’re honest and you’re transparent about it. Are feelings gonna get hurt? Probably.

that’s bad, right? It, it happens, but again, that’s life. It will happen. Hopefully the parents at that kid’s home are saying, listen, I say this to my kids often. If you were told you could only have six people, would that have been one of your six?

Nina: [00:29:00] Yes. I’m like cheering.

Dr. Noelle: Say, no, not really. Maybe seven.

Nina: it’s like we said before, you wanna be in everyone’s Mahjong group, but if you are gonna host one, you wouldn’t even have the people that you expect to invite

you

Dr. Noelle: I think that education should start early on. when we say , their kids, like kids, work it out. I totally agree with that and I don’t agree with that. At the same time, I think parents need to coach, I need to coach my kids and I need to teach them, Hey, wait a minute, would that be one of your six?

No, you would have this kid, this kid, this kid and this kid before you ever invited that kid. So let’s be fair. And I think parents need to stop being over involved. So I think again, even that statement is nuanced. Let the kids work it out isn’t good or bad. It depends on the situation. so we’ve got two things, right?

So we’ve got the, not everyone can be included at all times, that is just life. The other situation is that more of that, inclusion exclusion as part of strategic withholding and that is more a form of relational [00:30:00] aggression.

That is more the, I’m not letting you come because I don’t like that you made the baseball team and I didn’t, I don’t like that that girl likes you more than they like me. And so I feel threatened if you’re at my party or I don’t want that kid to come ’cause I don’t like that kid’s mom for some benign reason.

Not some like major reason, but some like, I don’t like how she looked at me at at book club. so there’s two separate camps of inclusion and exclusion. We can’t call everything while that’s life, not everyone can always be included when there’s the subplot of it’s really being done in an aggressive way for secondary gain.

That strategic withholding, but we also can’t say everything is relational aggression.

Nina: Right, like not everybody is mean or a bully. they’re just not because of, ’cause you weren’t included. and then let’s say we do know that it is more than just, hey, they only could have, you know, they were [00:31:00] going to a concert and there’s only five seats in the car and like, we didn’t wanna bring two cars.

Now. I agree with you. I’ve seen you say this and I agree with it. I think it’s okay to have just some of the kids, but you cannot have just some of the kids minus one

or two.

That’s just cruel. That’s what I have a call.

Dr. Noelle: absolutely. And I started labeling that, ’cause this is, this is very hard to explain over Instagram, right? All these, nuanced situations. So I started calling it the all but rule.

Nina: Yes. That’s

Dr. Noelle: You can’t have all but one or two without having a conversation. So for example, let’s say you have a child and they have a friend group of six, but your car only fits five.

Nina: Yeah. Well no, now you’re taking two cars or you’re just hanging out at the house.

Dr. Noelle: And that’s where it gets tricky, right? That is if you have a very clear set group of six kids and you can only take five, one person is gonna be left out and that that’s gonna hurt and that hurt’s gonna be real. ’cause that’s a real. sort of targeted, one person was chosen and you’re, [00:32:00] it, that makes sense that there would be a lot of hurt feelings there, and that can have a trickle down effect.

So if, parents don’t think then that the next week at school, the kid that was hurt isn’t gonna act out in some way and try to then gain more power or more control back in the group, they’re mistaken. That’s what’s gonna happen. Remember, we’re mammals, we’re animals. We act behaviorally. Sometimes we don’t know why we’re doing it, but we know subconsciously what we need to do to regain power.

Nina: And we learn it so young. It’s, you’re right, it’s instinctual. It’s like it, well, it’s sort of taught in

sort of instinct maybe where it’s encouraged

Dr. Noelle: It’s both. So it, it is absolutely instinctual. And I do think part of our job as parents is to teach, there’s other ways to communicate because we are luckily verbal mammals. we can communicate, right? So it would be much better if you’re sixth person left out. If you coach up your child to be able to say, Hey, I really didn’t like that.

I hated that actually, that really hurt me. Is there a reason you didn’t pick me? Now, [00:33:00] you won’t always get an honest answer, but at least you know that you’re learning how to communicate directly because relational aggression happens when we don’t feel safe enough or comfortable enough or have the skills to communicate directly.

Nina: Oh, that’s so good. let’s say you are the adult that is continually not the person included, or you see that that’s happening to your kid. At what point, and I struggle with this a lot in advising other people. My instinct, and maybe I’m wrong, is to stop coaching the kid or telling yourself, this is how I’m going to get myself included, or I’m even, this is what I would say to let them know I was hurt and shift your focus elsewhere.

Like I tended to encourage people to really be careful about trying to get their kid, especially included in something that they’re continually left out of., This is not the group for you. This is, now we’re back to the really fitting in or not. I seem to really perseverate on this because I guess I am reflecting on the, stuff I hear that comes to me.

I get a lot of anonymous letters and it’s usually more about adults, but sometimes it’s about their kids. [00:34:00] So interchangeably, whether it’s about your kid or yourself, it’s, I wasn’t invited to this. They did this thing without me. They did this thing without me and, really wanna say back, why are we trying to get invited to a place you’re not wanted?

it’s time to move on. I wouldn’t call the other parents and be like, get my kid invited. I said this before, the kid who has been pushed on another group between

the moms

fifth grade, sixth grade, seventh grade, you have to have my kid at trick or treating and you have to have my kid at this birthday party and you have to have her.

Can you get my kid that is the kid who in 10th grade doesn’t have a homecoming group and doesn’t know why? It’s because they were always invited as a

Dr. Noelle: absolutely. So I like to say forced inclusion creates fragile belonging. Oh,

Nina: Oh, that’s so good. Okay. Oh my God, that’s so good. I’m sorry, I

Dr. Noelle: Yeah. I’ll say it again. Forced inclusion creates fragile belonging. So we have to remember, Being included is not the same as belonging. I could be included all day long. I can make someone feel bad about not including me or not including my kid because my [00:35:00] kid’s hurt and wants to, be included.

But inclusion does not equal belonging. Belonging is when your nervous system and your attachment system feels safe. It doesn’t matter if you have a bad day, they still want you there. It doesn’t matter if you weren’t fun at the party, they still want you there the next time.

That’s real belonging. I like to teach parents and teens and even I like to teach it really, really young you know the difference between belonging and inclusion on how your body feels and how you react. That’s one way of knowing. But the parents, and, and I’m guilty of this from early Parenthood on, I’m not guilty anymore.

I’m like, don’t include him. He’ll be fine.

Nina: Yes. Oh, Noelle. I have times that I can picture and I viscerally react to it, where I had made a phone call and asked for my kid to be included, and it absolutely bit me in the butt. It was over 10 years ago, and I still feel what I felt like when that mom texted me telling me how inappropriate that was.

She [00:36:00] probably could have been a little nicer about it, but she was right. She taught me a lesson and she basically said, you are not doing your kid any favor. And she was right. That’s a nice thing about having four kids is you get to

a couple more

Dr. Noelle: And you live and you learn. Right? I’ve made that phone call. I’ve been that person I’ve now learned that forced inclusion creates fragile belonging. And I tell parents this all the time. relational aggression and ingroup outgroup mean girls, mean boys. It doesn’t stop in high school or college.

We know that it goes into nursing homes, But a lot of what I deal with are these mom groups and the social engineering that happens from preschool on. I often tell parents, sit tight. Hang tight. Once mom and dad aren’t the drivers anymore. Once mom and dad can’t arrange the play dates on their own, the natural grouping will start to really develop.

the people who want to be together will find a way to be together. I think parents have too much control in social engineering. and this is, my big hill to die on is I think [00:37:00] motherhood has become, it’s a whole thing in of itself. our relationships have gotten really muddied in that process of what motherhood now means.

So relationships are becoming more transactional and less about just being relational. that’s when social engineering really starts to take hold. And we’re doing our kids a disservice at the end of the day because

Nina: an example of like, uh, what would be transactional as opposed to relational?

Dr. Noelle: Sure. So you know what, we should probably invite Johnny, I think, his parents have, I think they have a suite at the, brave Stadium.

Nina: Oh, yuck. Yeah. Oh, I don’t like this.

Dr. Noelle: Or I dunno. Don’t you like Bobby? He’s so sweet. And his dad coaches the travel league. I don’t know. I feel like he would be good to have,

Nina: such a good call on the travel sports and the making teams. My kids didn’t do travel sports, but I know that that’s a

Dr. Noelle: and that’s coming from a parent and a parent. Can 100% influence how a child sees another child at the [00:38:00] age of seven or eight. If I want to convince my child to like or dislike another child, I’m an adult and I have the ability to do that,

Nina: Yeah, it’s like an abuse of power really, in a way as a

Dr. Noelle: Right. It’s, it’s modeling. It’s I’m modeling, I’m, I’m responsible.

And to some degree in telling them what’s good, what’s bad, what’s in, what’s out. they’re, to some degree, if they hear the same message over and over again, they’re gonna listen. over time, I think a lot of motherhood and children’s relationships and relationships with other parents has become somewhat transactional.

And like I just, you know, those examples and less about who do you like and why? How do you feel when you’re with that person? What are your actual shared interests? and could you call that person on a good day and a bad day, or only in certain situations? That would be more relational.

Nina: we have to talk about something major, which is, Breaking the cycle. To your point about us being like animals and having these instinct, it’s probably not [00:39:00] realistic to break that concept of society that there’s going to be a feeling of in and out. From my point of view, what I wish that more people would see is what you desire to be in isn’t something you actually wanna be in.

It’s only an in-group because you and your little school have decided that. Okay. There is the reality of this is where your kid goes to school, they need somewhere to sit at lunch or you as an adult, this is where you live. You wanna have homage group,. what I try to get people to see is there’s not just this one group.

We’re like hyper fixated on like these eight women. There are other women in this

Dr. Noelle: absolutely.

Nina: That’s the cycle I’m talking about. But yes.

Dr. Noelle: I think there’s lots of cycles we need to break here. at the sort of core, what I would really like people to start feeling comfortable talking about is these uncomfortable conversations. I don’t fit in, or I don’t actually like that person, and I don’t want them in my group.

Instead of doing underhanded things to damage that person’s [00:40:00] reputation or their ability to be in the group. big picture, I would like us just to have more conversations like you do on your podcast about the nuances and complexities of friendships. . We have couples therapy.

We have family therapy. Why are friendships any different you can’t tell me another relationship where we don’t have therapy for it. Other than friendships. I mean, I’ll do work mediation where I’m with two business partners , that’s a relationship and we have therapy for it.

my real big goal is, let’s start talking about there is relational aggression. There are ugly things that happen in friend groups and relationships. We can’t pretend that’s just life, whatever. Yes, it is life, but we should also be able to call it out and not have the person who’s experiencing it hide in the shame that it’s happening to them.

It doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with them or they’ve done something wrong and that’s why they’re not accepted. It means it’s the wrong group [00:41:00] at the wrong time. Maybe it’s as simple as that. Maybe there is relational aggression going on, and maybe your best bet is to walk away and find a different group.

I,

Nina: we might not be able to fix it for you as an adult or for your kid. You really might not be able to fix it. The fix might be trying a couple other groups. It may not even be the next one, might not

Dr. Noelle: it might not. And another fix, I think, is teaching more distress tolerance. So how to tolerate uncomfortable feelings and emotions, both the kids and the adults, and teaching more conflict resolution and direct communication so we don’t have to rely on relational aggression to get what we want in the relationship or the group setting.

Nina: You know, we barely talked about social media in all this too, but I think it’s just another tool maybe of the same animal

Dr. Noelle: that’s kind of the way I see it. So I see that this foundation has been laid, in parenthood and in relationships and motherhood. Um, I think every generation has its own sort of tweak on how we [00:42:00] relate to one another, or if we’re talking about parents, how we parent, right? A parenting philosophy. Social media simply highlighted and is a tool, like you said, for some of the groundwork that’s already been laid.

Nina: I mean, it’s the ultimate way you can express your relational aggression, that’s for sure. Yeah.

Dr. Noelle: I, get blown up when I post about something called cyber ostracism. People are like, get outta here. You’re, you know, what are you talking about? And I get it. It can be like with anything, it can be overused, but there is such a thing that they’ve done research on called Cyber ostracism where you are being ostracized, but via social media or technology.

Nina: Oh, I a hundred percent agree with you that just the text groups, forget social media, just old fashioned.

The chat is a huge place where that happens. And it sometimes people write to me about, they’re on the chat, but anytime they say something it’s like, crickets.

That’s a subtle thing they’re on [00:43:00] it, or they may be aware that there’s a second one, you know, but, or when they say anything and no one responds, it’s like, but if someone else says something, it’s lots of hahas

Dr. Noelle: Oh, oh.

Nina: know,

Dr. Noelle: get so many messages about that, and I get questions like, is that relational aggression.

Nina: well is it, or is it maybe you don’t belong? Ah,

Dr. Noelle: and that’s where it’s very hard. Right? That’s where, we really do need to take the space and the time to, there’s not one right or wrong answer. So I think social media has also given us the idea that because people have more access to this information, that there is a right or a wrong answer and no one really likes to hear, well, it’s complicated or, well, I

don’t know.

But that’s why we do things like therapy so that we really have 50 minutes to flush out here’s your individual situation. Oh wait, you have a history of social anxiety. Oh, so you oftentimes feel like people aren’t responding to you in the same way that they are to others. Oh. But your husband would say they are responding oh, so maybe this is a [00:44:00] you issue, not to victim blame. We have to differentiate. Do you have social anxiety that’s making you feel like your comments aren’t being a, addressed? Is it a fit issue? Are you in the wrong group or is there something going on that’s a little more insidious in this group where you are being targeted or your kid is being targeted so you are being iced out of the group?

we have to have so much information, historical and current before we really can decide. And that’s the pause.

Nina: Noelle, I’m gonna tell you something that I did yesterday, I did something in a text group that no one responded to for a long time, but I, have done a lot of work on myself and I do think I have a lot of self-awareness, but for the first hour I did not have self-awareness and I was completely spiraling.

Like, wow. Crickets. then I was able to see with a healthy mind, but it took a full hour of that mm-hmm Ick feeling What I wrote in the text group was off. it was everyone else wasn’t being mean we were having just a nothing major text conversation. And then I just got like [00:45:00] utterly serious and sort of vulnerable and completely misplaced. Mm-hmm. it was like a comment outta left field, and I think they just didn’t know what to say.

if we were a more regular group, I think somebody even could have been like, wtf, Nina. Like they could have been enough. Right. some of them don’t know me as well anymore, and I’m sure, I have to imagine, I don’t know. Mm-hmm. That they might have been like, huh.

And my ones who really are close to me also were probably like, really? Nina? Like, why did you talk to, right. Right. So not the time or place. Eventually one of the girls I’m grateful to her, wrote something like, totally get it, Nina, , and made me feel better and ask, that’s just one sigh of relief, right?

Yes. And then a couple other people thumbs up, which she wrote and mm-hmm. There is some of that tendency where , no one wants to be the first one, I went from in that one hour being like, oh my God, everyone hates me. I’m such a loser too. Okay. Sometimes I could have a little more self-awareness about like right time, right place, right people.

there’s nothing wrong with those people. they didn’t do anything wrong. , but it did take like a high level of maturity on my part to get over my initial feeling of, oh, these girls don’t like me.

Dr. Noelle: [00:46:00] Yes. I think that’s again, when in doubt, just pause.

Most people need more than an hour. Yeah. Most people. I mean, that’s very good. Thank you. Most people might need 24 hours at least, to help themselves regulate and get into that more wise mind.

So again, we’ve got the emotion mind and the reasonable or logic mind, which is using facts and intellect to understand the situation. And then we’ve got emotion mind, which is using our emotions to understand the, the situation. In an ideal world, we wanna operate from Wise Mind, where we have both. So it took you about an hour to get back into Wise Mind.

Nina: it did a full hour and every minute felt like an hour though.

Dr. Noelle: Absolutely.

Nina: The best thing to do would’ve been to walk away from my phone and not know if anyone responded.

Dr. Noelle: That’s the pause.

Nina: So, so hard to do.

Dr. Noelle: I want people to put it away. So if, your kid gets in the car and says, Susie’s having a birthday party and I’m not one of the five invited, and your first response is, I’m texting her mom right now.

That

Nina: Oh, walk away ladies,

Dr. Noelle: do not do it. Put your phone down. [00:47:00] Walk away. Do not react. So if, the first tip I could give anyone in, in these complicated social dynamic situations, it’s regulate first. it’s like the old fashioned, what do you do if you’re in an airplane?

You put your oxygen mask on first, then you help the child. You cannot help your child. You can’t help yourself unless your oxygen mask is on. And our oxygen mask here is regulating. Touch grass. Go for a walk. Take a deep breath. If you’re me, have a diet Coke. do what you gotta do. Yeah. regulate yourself because things will become clearer.

The more you react based on your emotional , the more you’re giving someone the opportunity, if there is relational aggression going on, you give them fuel for their fire, then you give them the opportunity to say, you are dramatic. You are overreacting and you’re being too sensitive.

Nina: one last question before we sum this up.

Dr. Noel okay, you know, that your kid, let’s say, is doing some of the stuff that we’ve been talking about. They’ve dropped someone from a text group, they [00:48:00] have made a plan that purposely excludes someone. It’s not, ’cause you the parents said, we could only have five people, or whatever. This kid has taken it upon themselves to be like, Hmm, not that one today.

Or lunch table stuff is a whole other politics. Oh, yes, yes. So let’s say, you know, your, your kids, maybe someone’s brought it to your attention. You know, another parent, even though, you know, we sometimes say, let the kids work it out. Sometimes fellow parent friends like, need help and mm-hmm.

What do we say to our own children?

Dr. Noelle: Yep. So the first thing I would say is no shame in that game. It is absolutely developmentally appropriate for children, particularly younger children, to be learning relational skills and part of your job as a parent is to be aware and to help coach and teach them.

There should be no shame and I don’t think any parent should be judged when they’re trying to do their best and intervene. I think when a parent feels so confused about what to do, that they bury their head in the sand, that’s when the judgment starts to come out because it [00:49:00] seems like the parent’s not doing anything.

Nina: Right. And we don’t always know what the parents are doing. we don’t. You’re right. I definitely have had kids in mind be labeled, mean or whatever and people shouldn’t assume that. I wasn’t that again. I don’t want my kid to do that, you know? Right.

Dr. Noelle: That’s the giving the grace and I wish more parents could have mature conversations with one another where we could say, here’s what your kid’s doing.

Okay, great. Thanks for telling me. I’ll deal with it. Then you trust that the parent’s dealing with, right. Yeah. I wish we could have more mature conversations, but we can’t. It seems most people cannot. again, that’s learning more emotion regulation and distress tolerance and better conflict resolution skills.

So if you find out your child’s the mean child, the first thing is you separate the behavior from the child. Just because a kid has done something bad, it does not mean that they are bad. And again, that’s the, no shame in that game. Shame is, I am bad, I am inherently bad. Doing a bad behavior is a learning experience.

you take that in. It’s the shame that makes us hide from it and not wanna address [00:50:00] it. You take it in and then you get curious. Your first step is you get curious, you start getting information, you start asking your kid questions. If a parent calls you, you ask the other parent questions. What have you heard?

Okay, great. And now I’m gonna get the information from my kid. And you get curious. You don’t come in hot, You come in like, Hey, I just got a phone call. Or I just found out that you did X, Y, or Z. Tell me about it. and then you wanna start to build empathy.

’cause a lot of this is teaching empathy. Empathy doesn’t necessarily come naturally for everyone, you wanna teach perspective taking and empathy. So you might ask, how would you feel if that happened to you? What do you think he felt like when he saw he was kicked from the chat? What do you think she imagined when she was told she couldn’t sit with you anymore?

so you start asking questions that help build empathy and perspective taking. And then you might even model repair. So you might say, how do you think we can fix this? Or What can you do to make it right? Or what would [00:51:00] you do differently next time? If it’s not fixable,

and then of course, because of my mean girl mom, I do believe a lot of this is a trickle down from our culture. You wanna check the ecosystem your child is living in? have they seen this at home? Have they seen this in your relationships? Have they seen this in their friend group? Have they seen this at their school?

Have they seen this on their sports team? What is the ecosystem that they are learning this from? if there is one, maybe not, you wanna make sure they’re not absorbing those behaviors from somewhere else, unchecked.

Nina: That’s great. Thank you.

Dr. Noelle: regulate first is always my message.

And my second message is try to give people grace. I know it’s hard. I know it’s hard because I have seen people do really unkind, actually mean things to other women. And men are guilty of this too, by the way. I just happen to work with primarily women.

Nina: Yeah, I’m glad you said that.

And boys

I

Dr. Noelle: I only have boys. I work with girls in private practice, but I’ve seen it. It’s mean girls. What I mean when I talk about mean girls is the adult women. [00:52:00] But also girls and boys can engage in relational aggression, not just girls and women. but pause to regulate yourself.

Give grace because we’re looking for patterns. We’re not looking for incidents. That’s the second thing. we’re looking for patterns of behavior. So if you’re left out once that’s an incident. If someone’s mean to you or cold to you at one parent teacher night, that’s an incident. It doesn’t feel good.

It’s an incident, not a pattern. We’re looking for patterns of behavior. The third thing that’s so helpful pattern. Not just an incident. Not an incident. If you have an incident, that’s where I would love for someone to have the ability on both sides to have open direct communication so that you can understand the incident better, and it doesn’t become a pattern.

If it becomes a pattern of behavior, that’s when we need to ask ourselves the questions of what am I doing here and why? For yourself or your child? In the relationship,

Nina: Why am I trying to get into this group that. Maybe it doesn’t want me. Right. And then like, why do I want it?

Dr. Noelle: I also think about it [00:53:00] like, okay, so if I am a visitor in France, just because I run into an American doesn’t mean that has to be my bestie. Just because you run into someone who has some demographic in common with you, doesn’t mean you have the same values, beliefs, history, background, future goals.

We shouldn’t expect the same thing just because we live in a community with someone.

Nina: Yeah. Like a way of saying that in my mind, and, and it doesn’t feel good when you’re the person trying to make friends, but you’re not entitled to someone’s friendship. Friendship is a lot of time and a lot of people have put a lot of time in, whether it’s into a group, whether we like it or not, these groups do form each person who shows up isn’t necessarily entitled.

And yet we do want to be a kind society and include people. Mm-hmm. But. It’s tricky. people are gonna be frustrated by this conversation. I know, I know. there’s no easy answer.

Dr. Noelle: Well, and the answer is you have to determine is it relational aggression or is it a misunderstanding?

Or is it the reality of not everyone can always be [00:54:00] included and why do I wanna be included in something when I’m not really belonging?

And there’s ways to determine which it is. It just takes more to flush it out. ’cause we have to look at history and we have to look at current situation.

at the end of the day, the take home is, are there mean girls and boys and mothers? there are. I believe it’s a natural consequence of the culture we’re living in, where I think relationships are becoming more and more transactional, which is part of the sort of, fertilizer for relational aggression.

So I do think we’re seeing more of it. On the other hand, I think we need to tolerate distress better. I think we need to learn how to communicate better and I think we need to learn how to give grace. So it’s both and, which is definitely gonna frustrate your listeners, but I’m happy to answer more questions.

Nina: Hate to say goodbye to you.

I know. Well, I’m always happy to do a part two I’m gonna tell you how I end every episode I think you’ll agree. I have this tagline at the very end. First of all, I say, and I mean [00:55:00] this genuinely. Thank you for being part of this conversation. And then I say, come back next week to the listeners because when our friendships are going well, we are happy all around.

We suffer a lot. We do. When our friendships aren’t going well. We do. Yes. Yes. Alright, bye. And thank you. Thank you for having me.