Nina: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of dear Nina conversations about friendship. I’m your host, Nina Baden. I’m a writer, a writing group leader, and a friendship enthusiast. I love talking about what works and doesn’t work in friendship and helping myself become a better friend through these conversations. Not perfect, but better.

This podcast is officially over a year old and it makes me so happy that the episodes are helping listeners, which I know from my Facebook group, dear Nina, the group, everyone is welcome to join us there. Today’s topic is managing a lap sided friendship. That feeling you’re putting more into the friendship than your friend is, and maybe even being okay with it.

And then of course handling those times when we’re not okay with it. And it came about after reading an article on vox.com called how to handle a lopsided friendship by Anna Goldfarb. I know some of who have read it too, because a lot of you sent it to me. And guess who is here to discuss the topic with me? [00:01:00] It’s Anna herself. Welcome Anna.

Anna: hi. Thank you so much for having me

Nina: Anna gold for our brights about friendships, relationships and pop psychology. Her work has appeared in the New York times vice time, the caught and more, and I’m willing to bet many listeners have been sharing her articles with friends or on social media.

She’s the author of the humor memoir. Clearly, I didn’t think this through and a forthcoming nonfiction book about modern friendship that I cannot wait to read and we’ll have to have Anna back when that comes out and she lives in Philadelphia. So Anna, like many of your articles, like I said, this one got shared a ton . I’d love for you to summarize. I can’t assume everyone has read it. I’d love for you to summarize the article, how to handle a lopsided friendship in your own words. And also like, while you’re doing that, tell us where the idea came from.

Anna: You know, the idea came from looking around at my own friendships and realizing during the pandemic. So much had changed in our personal lives. my best friend had a baby, she had a whole other baby, you know, I lost my [00:02:00] dad. all these huge milestones happened. And I think there was a void there of ambiguity of where are we at with each other?

, what does our friendship mean to each other? I know that my friends have had big changes in their lives. I’ve had big changes in my life. Where do we come together? And that’s where the idea came from is I bet a lot of other people feel the same way of what is up with my friendships right now.

And I think that if you’re the friend that’s always reaching out, that’s always making little reminders. That’s always, just, you feel like you spend so much energy thinking about your friends and you naturally wonder are they thinking about me? So that’s where the idea came from , what do you do with that, all that mental energy of where are we with our friendships right now?

and I was really excited when V agreed to be article because I really thought that it would resonate. And I’m just delighted to hear that people could see their own friendships reflected in this too.

Nina: It definitely hit a nerve.[00:03:00]

Anna: You know, so some often with our friends, we don’t really talk about our friendship, the state of our friendship. There’s just a lot of dancing around or silences or, kind of passive ways to show that you’re unhappy or unsatisfied.

It’s very hard to come out and say, like, I feel like I’m instigating, I’m reaching out so much. What the.

Nina: So, what was some of the advice you got in the article for those moments? When you, I guess we’ll start with, let’s start with what we do when we’re not okay with it and we’ll work our way to, how to become more okay with it because, , I am a reach outer.

I am, and I think I have become okay with it, but that was a process. So we’ll get there. But in the article you do give some advice for people who. You do kind of notice hard, not to notice that you get the sinking feeling. Like if I stopped reaching. I would maybe never talk to this person. And are they really interested in being my friend?

It’s a natural question to ask yourself. And I’ve done an episode before where we [00:04:00] had, , someone write in with this exact kind of thing. , I feel like if I were to test the friendship, it would fall apart. And sometimes we don’t wanna do that necessarily. Cuz maybe you wanna keep the friend. And I did have someone call in on the voicemail.

I had previewed the question on the Facebook page. And so sometimes I’ll do that. I’ll leave a number. Or a website where you can leave a message and someone did leave a message. And she said, I’m the friend that never reaches out. And that’s because I’m just bad at it. And I thought it was so important to have that point of view that some people it’s not personal that said it still could get tiresome.

If you are the one who’s always doing it. So, yeah. What were some of the tips that you got.

Anna: You know, I think the biggest tip was resist assumptions. You’re hardwired, meaning and am, and really resist the story about what’s going on. Cause a lot of times the stories [00:05:00] are made outta thin air.

You know what my best friend could not write back to a text message. And my lizard brain will think, oh, she doesn’t value me or this friendship’s not important to her. Or . She doesn’t care about me and I could fill in the blanks of this meaningless action, but it’s really my own insecurities bubbling up and having a megaphone.

, if I actually think about it from her point of view, she, you know, she just, she has two kids. one’s daycare disclose, and then we’re like, there’s a million things going on. It’s not personal. so the number one thing to do is resist making assumptions. it’s one data point. And a lot of data points, you know, look back at your whole friendship.

Your, your friendship is probably fine. You probably do love each other, but this just might be a case where the priorities are shifting for your friends. And it doesn’t mean the friend doesn’t value you. It’s just that it can’t be the priority right now. And that’s all it

Nina: means. That [00:06:00] cannot be overstated enough.

And I often give a, that advice about various situations, like you just said to think about the totality of the friendship. There’s so many elements and like, maybe this is just one place that’s not strong. I shared a meme on Instagram today from the account. My therapist says it’s such a funny account and they do a lot of friendship stuff.

It says crazy how, when I don’t text someone back, it’s because I’m busy. But when someone doesn’t text me back, it’s because they hate me. Isn’t that just the thing. Yeah.

Anna: I saw that too. And I was like, ah, that’s exactly what it’s like, you know, I, yes, it’s, I think social media really exacerbates this issue because you could see your friends, you know, at a park and then you’ll think, well, why haven’t they text me back?

They have time to post a picture in the park. Why can’t they, you start like spinning stories and it’s. Incessant. Like, it’s really, really hard when you see images or pictures or tweets from a friend and like, why haven’t they gotten back to me and you start [00:07:00] making comparisons or judgments and start internalizing that.

Like, why aren’t I important enough or why don’t they value me enough? And, you know, um, you might have a fear of abandonment that’s triggered with, with stuff like that. Of like, I, you know, my friend’s leaving me. My friend’s not interested. My friend doesn’t care and that’s not. Fair. , it’s a seductive line of thinking, but it’s not a fair line of thinking to your friends.

That’s what I wanted to get out with this article take a step back from social media. don’t give into the urge to tell yourself a story at a thin air and really just give each other the benefit of the doubt.

Nina: That’s great advice. And let’s say you get to the point where. Truly, it has been a while since your friend has made an effort or that, you’ve seen your friend, , let’s say it’s a person in town.

I liked some of the advice you gave in there about making it easier, maybe for your friend to say yes, like maybe you do have a friend who’s a lot going on. Who’s just a little busier than [00:08:00] you. We, all take turns, right? Like having more going on in our lives. It’s a good idea. You put in there , you said to visualize, why don’t you explain that a little help them visualize, will you explain that?

Anna: You know, , I’m reporter and a journalist and , when I pitch a story, I wanna get to yes. As fast as possible. , I learned to make the leap with friends too, of how can I get to yes. As fast as possible and the strategy of saying let’s get together. Goes nowhere. Like you really need to offer specifics to make it easy to get to.

Yes. And my expert, , Danielle Bayer, Jackson, she’s phenomenal. Her idea. She called it like the movie preview thinking instead of saying, let’s get together. How about let’s get together Saturday? How about let’s get together Saturday at seven. How about let’s get together Saturday at seven at that new wine bar and we can try something bubbly and let’s wear some new lipstick.

And really preview the night. And you might even just hearing that might get excited of like, oh, I wanna say yes to [00:09:00] that. I wanna go sit and get dolled up and it’s easier to say yes to when the other person can visualize what the night will look like. And then if they have to arrange childcare or, , tell their significant other, they can make the case of why they wanna go to this thing.

I think, you know, I’m married a lot of friends who are. Juggling, these new dynamics are probably in long term relationships too. And you have to account for your significant other feelings and plans and you have to make to say yes by saying, how can we help you make the case to people in your life that this is something that you wanna say, yes.

Nina: . And there’s a piece in the article too, about focusing on quality over quantity. So , let’s take this wine bar example. So let’s say this event does happen. You, you go with a couple friends. My advice to people is , let that night count for a lot. , really take it in, have fun. Let that night really count. And it, even if it doesn’t happen again [00:10:00] for a while, don’t erase that the night happen. I think people are very, I accuse my kids of this all the time. . Unless I did something for them in the last five seconds.

You don’t do anything for me, mom, I have four kids, three are teenagers. It can be the same thing with friends. And I had to, for myself, I had to remember somebody hasn’t, let’s say text it back in a bit, but

two weeks before he like, had a great lunch, that all has to count. You cannot, , take every little communication thing, so seriously. . , it would be better for ourselves to not get so worked up about, like you said, make assumptions. , , I thought that was a great point in the article about quality has to count.

It really does.

Anna: You know, , I hadn’t seen my best friend in a year cuz of the pandemic. She has two small children that weren’t vaccinated and she was very particular about letting people around them, which I totally understood. , we finally got together after year and we spent most of the hour or two together reassuring each other.

I don’t think I would’ve been as attuned to that before, but now that I’ve been focusing [00:11:00] so much on friendship, I just, the first thing I said was , I think about you all the time and it’s okay if I don’t hear from you. I know you’re thinking about me too. And I never would’ve said that before.

But. That’s what my vibe is, is like, if you can only talk to your best friend for an hour and a half in a year, what can you say to make the other person feel reassured and love and safe and calm about your friendship? And she said, my phone is broken, cuz my toddler threw it across the room.

The keys don’t work. And when I text you back, it’s not. Cause I don’t love you. It’s cuz my phone is horrible right now. I wouldn’t have known that before. And I’m like, you know, Every Saturday. I see my nieces and nephews. I’m not around for Saturday. It’s like, we just, all we talked about was I love you.

I’m thinking about you, but here’s what my life looks like right now. And it’s doesn’t mean I don’t love you. And I’ve started telling my friends. I love them more. I didn’t really do that before, but I saw a study that that’s the one thing you can do. That’s the one thing siblings want more from.[00:12:00]

Siblings is to be told that they love them and appreciate them across the board. They wish they heard that more. And I’ve started using that with my friends. I’ve started telling my best friend, I love her and just being free with it. And that gives so much reassurance just to hear it of, I love you. You matter to me, I don’t want my friends to ever question our commitment or if we’re in a good place and that’s something that we can do, we can take control and just reassure our friends.

I’m here for you. And I love you.

Nina: That’s a really actionable thing. All of us can do. I’m so glad you said that because yeah, it speaks to that assumption thing too. Just like we are making assumptions, all of us about what our friends might be thinking. They’re also making assumptions and sometimes we can.

Just get rid of the assumptions and tell people, tell if it’s positive, that’s easier, , to tell people and compliment people , we want people to see us and acknowledge us and. Anything we all want, I think we need to learn to give. , it’s just human nature to think about what someone’s not doing for us and [00:13:00] what we’re not getting on that piece of the lopsidedness. And it’s, I think if everyone could take a little more responsibility for what, can you give?

When’s the last time you reached out for a plans? When’s the last time you told a friend you appreciated them or missed them and you could tell someone you miss them. In a way that isn’t accusatory, but I, I think it takes a little work. , it might need to begin with a little context of, , I know you’ve been really busy.

I just want you to know that I miss when we hang out, like, I think it’s okay to address with a friend when you feel like it’s lopsided and your article touches on this too. But I think what you and I both come from a similar point of view of the solution to lopsidedness is not necessarily.

Always evenness. It’s learning to accept some of the lopsidedness. Would you agree with that? Yeah.

Anna: You know, I think most people are just looking for reassurance right now. It’s been a tumultuous, stressful few years filled with a lot of uncertainty. And if you’re [00:14:00] feeling or like you’re on shaky ground with a friend, the best thing you can do, I think is just reassure. That you’re here for them whenever they’re ready or have space or even bandwidth, I’ll be here.

I think it’s a powerful message to send

Nina: it is it’s and letting someone know that, that we were saying the quality over quantity, that if you’re missing them, you’re really not asking that they text you every day, call you every day. And that you’re still there for them that you’re not testing them.

Yeah. That there’s, this isn’t a loyalty test, a friendship. In the Facebook group. And also, in many of my episodes, it comes up that sometimes though, that sinking feeling that the person is dropping off is coming from a real place. And even a couple weeks ago, in an episode, , got a letter from somebody who is trying to let someone know.

They don’t really want in anymore. And they don’t wanna [00:15:00] have that, direct conversation. Although my guest rookie , we talked about, sometimes you do need to have that direct conversation, but oh, it’s so hard when you’re on the receiving end of what feels like somebody withdraw, , which is another thing that happens in these lap sided friendships.

Although I do think the bulk of what you and I are trying to do. Talk to the situation where it isn’t, that the person’s trying to, to end the friendship, but we do have to acknowledge that there are times when people purposely do not text back as fast. It’s like probably the first thing I would tell someone to do if they’re trying to create some distance.

So I don’t know. What do we say to that person?

Anna: I have a suggestion. I think there is a way you can take control and you can say, I’d love to go out with you next weekend. To the park, you know, say something specific, , . If I don’t hear back from you by Friday, I’ll assume that you’re busy and take control.

So if you don’t hear back you understand what that means. You know, that it’s not a [00:16:00] priority for them. I would encourage if you’re not hearing back from someone have that. Non-response be your response in a more explicit way. That’s what I would do. I’d say if I don’t hear back from you by Monday, I’ll assume you’re busy and I’ll reach out again next month, , or reach out to me next month when your schedule frees up, have some, if this, then that, if I don’t hear from you, then.

Nina: I like that, cuz that’s somewhere between direct and indirect, it gives the person, yeah, like you said, some control the friend who’s being reached out to, in that case, if they truly are not trying to create some distance would be like, no, no, no. That is, I thank you for reaching out and I can’t do it Monday, but how about Thursday?

right. If somebody wants to get together, yeah. They would respond to a message like that. With some sort of note that says, even though that date’s not gonna work, please, please let’s find another date. I’m so sorry. I’ve been busy but maybe there is a distance. I don’t actually think it [00:17:00] always is necessary to know what every single reason why a friendship is drifting apart.

First of all, I actually don’t think you’ll always get the full story. So there’s a lot of stuff out there where people talk about kind of demanding the full story, but why do you think you’re gonna get the full story?

Anna: Yeah. You may not be entitled to it. Yeah. Yeah. It might. You may not be entitled.

It might be something really deeply personal that you have no idea about. , some turmoil, maybe their marriage is in trouble and they’re not ready to talk about it. And I think you can leave the door open without forcing closure. You can just say, I don’t hear from you. I’ll assume you’re busy. The ball’s in your court.

, I’d love to get together whenever possible. And I would just leave the door open, but definitely have an if then that, if this, then that and give yourself the gift of peace of mind.

Nina: Yes, this is great. Leaving the door open, not burning a bridge. And then I would say the final piece of advice here is lean into other friendships.

For better or for [00:18:00] worse. And there’s a little process of mourning that this friendship isn’t going to take the space that we. Hoped it would. And doesn’t mean forever, like we’re saying, but for right now, this isn’t gonna be your daily text person anymore.

If it was, or this isn’t gonna be like your weekly, take a walk person for now, And therefore this is that opportunity to lean into somebody else. Somebody new, somebody who maybe’s been reaching out to you, , you know, that Teeter totter, isn’t that the image on your article.

, sometimes we’re at the bottom of that. And sometimes we’re at the top of that. I don’t know if you have found that, but there are, you know, people, I probably reach out to more and people who reach out to me more. And so maybe an opportunity like that, , who’s been reaching out to you that maybe wouldn’t mind if you actually reached out a little more.

It’s a good time for that. Yeah.

Anna: I think it’s always smart to reassess the season of what do I need now? , what can I do for others? Like what do I need? And, at the same time, what can I give to others? What can I give to my friend? Who’s [00:19:00] kind of dropped off the radar who might be looking for companionship or a long distance friend that you haven’t really had time to sit down and talk with.

Cuz you’ve been so busy with your local friends. Maybe it’s the time to reconnect with an older friend. There’s just a lot you can do

, a smart strategy is to have a healthy friendship ecosystem and it’s like a garden and I’m sure cat fellows probably, , could testify.

This is a large part of her, , argument with friendship is that you need a garden. I think it’s helpful to use that imagery here of like, okay, what plant needs, sunshine, what plant needs water, and to have a diverse. Ecosystem of friendships. And if one of your friendships is a little wobbly or a little feeling, a little cooling it’s okay.

But you can take control , you are in charge of maintaining your garden. And, , it’s a good reminder. And you would want your friends to do the same. Like there are [00:20:00] times where you won’t be able to give very much or there’s this other priorities and it could be financial, it could be your work.

It could be your, you know, your personal life. Like you’re gonna need that understanding too. So I think that’s all healthy and normal and expected.

Nina: I love that mindset. It really is so much more. Of a, a calm place to come from, which I know is a point of view in your work. And in your upcoming book

and I love your point that we all need room too. Like we all need grace sometimes to, to not be as good of a friend as we are. Other times you had another really big piece that connects with this one. It was in, in the New York times and that one got passed around a ton. Quiet seasons and friendship.

And it was a little more pandemic related if, if I remember correctly, but that is just true, even COVID aside, , and it’s exactly what we were just talking about. Friendships don’t have to be. Over. It’s not always so black, I’m white. Sometimes they just dip a little. And I really liked [00:21:00] your suggestion if somebody in town used to spend a lot of time with let’s say, , is falling off a little more, let’s lean into that old friend that used to talk on the phone with a lot more before we were on social media so much maybe.

And now we’ve been liking each other’s Instagram posts for five years, but. Have we really had a conversation, let’s pick up the phone and talk to that person for a little bit and connect. Sometimes we just need that sense of connection. It doesn’t always have to be with the same couple people.

Anna: , I saw it in a newsletter. I don’t know the name of a newsletter. I wish I was better, but this, but it brought up the point that everything on the internet is the past. And every post you see from a friend or a comment you write is in the past, if they’re gonna be reading something you wrote in the past, or you’re looking at a picture that took place in the past, and part of the reason friendships feel so nourishing is cuz it’s in the present.

So if you’re feeling lonely, if you’re feeling like. You’re not getting that nourishment from the level of connection. Text messages are really in the past. You need [00:22:00] something now. It just feels so different to have that now component. I would look at what you can give yourself now to give yourself that feeling of connection.

And that’s gonna look, you know, in person phone, call, video, call things now. And I think that might really boost, your mood and . Give you that connection that you’re looking for. I

Nina: think the overall message, and this is a great place , to wrap up is everything you just said speaks to kind of the whole theme of managing a lap sided friendship is oftentimes taking control of our mindsets.

Giving people the benefit that a doubt, not assuming the worst, not assuming we even know anything and trying to reach out, like you reach out , try to set a time, set a place. A visual thing that they can see what it is. , and then just realizing we do need these connections. And if you’re not getting it from a couple of people, it’s feeling overly lopsided with then take control and lean into other friendships. That’s our summary. Did I miss anything?

Anna: no, that’s a really great summary. And my final thought is [00:23:00] friendship is a gift. , friendships are voluntary. We’re all here. They mean a lot to us, and it is a gift, but there’s also gifts. You can give yourself with friendship. And part of that is taking control and being mindful of the way you frame requests, being able to give the benefit of the doubt to your friends.

Those are gifts you give yourself too of I’m just gonna assume. We’re all good. I’m gonna assume everything’s okay. I’m not gonna catastrophize. I’m not gonna. Spin a yarn about what this means or doesn’t mean, and those are gifts you ultimately give yourself

. I

Nina: love it. And I’m so glad we finally, , met in person over a video chat. I’ve been a fan of your work for a long time. I cannot wait , for the book. Can you tell listeners where they can find you and get to see your work as you always have stuff coming.

Anna: Yeah, you can find me on Twitter at Anna Goldfarb.

That’s Anna with two ends, Instagram at Anna Goldfarb and my website, Anna goldfarb.com. I just can’t wait to [00:24:00] continue the conversation and really help people feel calmer in their friendships. So everything’s good. You’re gonna be okay. We’re gonna get through it. And you have the tools. To get through this.

I promise you whatever friendship problem you have, , we will get you through it. It will be okay.

Nina: . And we’re gonna have you back when that book comes out. And in the meantime, I’ll ask you, I know we’re connected on Twitter. I gotta go find if, if we are on Instagram, everybody. Thank you so much for being here too.

Come back in a couple weeks. As I always say, when our friendships are going well, we are happier all around. Have a great week.