[00:00:00] Nina: welcome to another episode of Dear Nina, conversations about Friendship. On each episode, I welcome a different guest to help me get into the nitty gritty of friendship, what works and what doesn’t work, and all the little friendship dilemmas we don’t always say out loud.

. Since starting the podcast, a little over a year ago, I had stopped answering friendship dilemmas in the written column, and those questions are building up in my email inbox, so I’m answering them in my new Sub Stack newsletter, which has the same name as this podcast.

Dear Nina, conversations about friendship now to today’s show, we’re talking about the difference between colleagues and friends. colleagues can be in an office or even fellow entrepreneurs. these days a lot of us are not sitting in an office. But maybe you started a business and you’ve been brainstorming and talking to other people, starting businesses.

I kind of consider those colleagues or fellow creatives people like that. People who you connect with deeply about your work. Little different than. I’m thrilled to have Lisa Harris here as my guest. Lisa is a storyteller, a narrative coach, and the CEO and founder of Lisa Harris and Company. Her entrepreneurial journey began in 2016 after publishing her book Unveiled Beauty.

Handwritten stories from a poetic heart. She spent 18 plus years in executive leadership roles working with many Fortune 500 companies and nationally recognized brands. Today, Lisa successfully guides women on their personal growth through the lens of their own life stories. Lisa’s in her sixth year producing Unveiled Beauty events.

Narrative coaching and speaking, you’ll find her on Lisa Harris and co.com and lots of social media places, And she’s the co-host of the Life in Our Own Skin podcast. Lisa, welcome to Dear Nina,

[00:01:49] Lisa: Hello, Nina. Thank you for having me. I’m so excited to be here.

[00:01:54] Nina: and you’re in Minneapolis and we know each other from motor well, but we’re still doing this remote cuz such is the world, like I was saying, which it is. Not that I don’t go into modern well, but it’s rare to just leave our houses as much. We do so much from home.

, this idea that we can do a lot from home has broadened the idea of what a colleague might be. I’m curious for you, just so we can get right into it, how has this issue come up in your life? How, how come this is something that’s been sitting with you, this idea that sometimes people don’t know the difference between a colleague and a friend and, and why that even.

[00:02:29] Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. I’m so excited to have this conversation. , and the work that I do, I work with so many women who are exploring their lives and their relationships and their selves, We just have a lot of conversations about what that means for them.

Right. So I’ve just had a lot of conversations professionally and personally about this, and when I started thinking about friendships and I started thinking about colleagues, I realized that so often people were really feeling like they were getting mixed somewhere in the middle.

Like they couldn’t quite figure out if their colleague was a friend. or if their colleague thought of them as a friend. I mean, there’s all these nuances and especially you had mentioned, yes, there’s women out here who maybe. in the workforce, you know, working the nine to five job, there may be women’s side hustles or you know, different small business entrepreneurial pursuits.

. I, like you said, spent 18 years in corporate and I felt like in that space there was a little bit more of a clear divide and maybe this is changing now, so I haven’t been. Nine to five in this remote environment. So this definitely may not resonate with some people, but I felt like when I was in corporate, I could draw a line.

It was easier to draw a line between I go to work and these, colleagues I have there, I really enjoy their company we work well together and we connect. But then it was like the end of the day, right? I mean, there might be a happy hour or something, but there was a little bit more of a line,

[00:04:01] Nina: They were your work friends, right? And it was more clear like, what was it? It was more clear what a work friend.

[00:04:07] Lisa: yeah, it did feel like that. , , , this space now is more fluid, right?

Like you could work at any time. There’s not as much of a clear divide. And so everything starts to meld together between personal and professional. I had a woman come to me. Not so long ago, really having this strong connection with a woman that she was kind of doing projects with in her small business their relationship had evolved over time,

they were leaning on each other for professional advice. They were leaning on each other almost in a life coaching type of way for, , mentorship and personal advice it continued to go on that way, and she really enjoyed that relationship. It was somebody she really could lean on. And then it started evolving into personal space and personal problems.

This woman came to me and she’s like, I don’t know what to do. Because I really have encouraged this relationship because I connect with her very well. And you know, she is a great sounding board and I love her personality. But now I feel the pressure of having to show up as her best friend, she wasn’t ready for it.

She didn’t know how to do it. She didn’t know if she wanted to, and she was actually seeking my guidance. And what to do next.

[00:05:27] Nina: . , that’s the kind of stuff I get letters about and it’s such a good example because what you said really resonated with me when, when your client said she had encouraged. This relationship, which she probably did because when we are, , especially embarking on these brand new kind of projects, like in that entrepreneurial space or like a creative space, I just think about myself as fellow podcasters and fellow writers.

We are not coworkers in the literal sense, but because we have similar, , kind of issues we deal with. And in writing or in podcasting, both different. We get all excited and it is a connection that is not the same that you have with your friends, and sometimes it’s stronger than you have with your friends because they really see you like these people who are in these projects with you, or at least they’re starting something also.

And so they know what you’re going through. They know what it is to try to get people to pay attention to what you’re doing to get customers or readers or listeners or whatever the case. your friends sometimes don’t get that and they’re not that interested, and maybe your friends aren’t showing up the way your kind of fellow creatives are showing up.

So I could see how your client’s colleague in a way really felt connected and then they blurred the line.

[00:06:35] Lisa: yeah. , there’s a vulnerability when you’re putting your own work out there, , whether it’s a business or a creative project.

And so, It’s almost like you’re connecting in a really deeper way because you’re all in whatever it is, as a narrative coach, we talk a lot about, perspective. And we talk a lot about the stories that we tell ourselves and, and how it’s important to look through new windows.

How certain words, , how we define them and what stories we attach to them can change our perspective or keep us stuck. Right? So it’s all in kind of the words and the stories and, and the narratives. And so as we were talking through this situation, it was important to step back and ask ourselves , how do we define friendship?

And what is that spectrum, ? , that’s so. Unique and different for every single individual. And then understanding that other person, , how are they defining that? , it gets to be very challenging, but you know, a lot of times there’s just really specific things based on your. Personal friendships that you have where you are able to say, these are the things that are important to me. These are the things that I value, and this is what makes that person, and this is how I’m defining it. So it’s could be different for you, like, this person is a personal friend this person is a colleague, or this person is a friend.

But in your mind, understanding , where that definition or where that boundary. . ,

[00:08:02] Nina: is tricky and it’s what, what makes it actually really tricky is , you’re so spot on with it is not the same for every person and there’s nothing wrong with that. It, which is what gets hard is when people are operating under different definitions and then trying to meet the middle , I really do think work friends can be real friends but they also can just exist in that special place of having this career piece in common.

And that’s its own cool thing. And it doesn’t have to mean that you are showing up a chicken soup every time, you know, the person gets sick or you’re bringing balloons over when the kid has their tonsils out. . To me, the more personal stuff like these are. Favors, I guess we do for each other.

It’s different than unloading on somebody and wanting advice all the time, which is maybe what was happening in this situation. But it’s like you could be on the phone or sitting with like a work person dealing with all the stuff like the really, like you said, vulnerable. That’s so true. We’re so vulnerable when we’re putting our work out there and helping each other, trying to figure out how to do that.

You do get personal to each other. You might talk about your home life. You might even talk about your other friends and how they’re not supporting you and your work and that kind of thing. But it doesn’t necessarily mean you wanna be the phone call at 2:00 AM you’re really not that person’s best friend.

But it’s confusing cuz you share so much.

[00:09:19] Lisa: Yeah. And I think really it’s about, , starting at the beginning of defining and understanding for yourself, right? Cause you can’t move forward or change or communicate until you have a clear understanding of what is the discomfort in you. , are you wanting that friendship and they’re not responding?

Or is somebody coming to you with a deeper level of friendship that you’re not ready for? First, it’s important to understand what the definition is for you, then I think it’s really important to have that conversation. . I love brainstorming together and you know, this relationship is important to me.

Right now. I have the capacity for us. , continue to work together closely.

And then the other thing is, like we were saying the opposite, right? Like, there are times when I. I really want to be this, this gal’s friend, we’re doing stuff together and I just really enjoy her. Maybe when you feel that way. Test the waters or do it slow, right? It’s not like, oh, you know, let’s go on this big retreat together.

You’re not doing that. , is this person open to a happy hour? That’s just the two of you. take it slow, almost like a romantic relationship. And then you can feel , , are we vibing together? Does she seem like somebody who’s ready, , who’s ready to take our relationship to the next level?

Or are we just work friends and that’s cool. Like we can just be that too.

[00:10:40] Nina: I’m so glad you brought that up, because there is nothing wrong with taking like a work friendship to the next level. , if you’re really busy and deep into your career. That is probably how you’re gonna meet some people is through these connections that you’re making in their career space.

, that was such good advice, Lisa. Exactly. , what I would tell somebody too, to take it slow and Yeah, test the waters and to hopefully you have your, , antenna up for getting the other person’s cue and how much time they have in their life . If you can tell, they kind of wanna just leave it where it is.

[00:11:11] Nina: Doesn’t mean anything’s wrong with you or doesn’t mean that your work good chemistry isn’t real like that. Chemistry is real and good, but maybe that person’s just in a weird spot in their life where it’s like they barely can see their outside of work friends. they can barely fit in a walk or a coffee or a happy hour with the friends they already have.

And so they kind people get really, I, I see this a lot in the letters I get. People get really tense about, anyone who’s asking. Of them. so sometimes our boundary walls are up and sometimes they’re a little more relaxed.

[00:11:41] Lisa: and I think it’s just important to, , continue to assess where you’re at, , because that relationship that you might have been testing the waters with. Like you said, you know, maybe a couple months down that road, that person is ready and open. So, you know, being mindful of the moment and just accepting, , however that person comes at you.

Because at the end of the day, we can’t control the other person. We can only control ourselves. So if we take baby steps to a relationship and we open our hearts and our minds to the experience, the connection in whatever form it shows up for us, then we won’t have as much discomfort. Of either the conversation that has to happen or the next place that we end up in

[00:12:23] Nina: . A really nice example of this is in episode, I think it’s 31. It’s my episode with Julie Burton and Stephanie Pierce, also modern. Well ladies, they talk a lot. We get a lot of detail. It’s actually a really good example of people like kind of trying to figure out how to further a work friendship.

They really started out as more work friends. Not that they were in business together, per se, but , They had some similar work goals and so that they kind of came together to help each other achieve those goals in different businesses. And then Stephanie ended up being on the modern well advisory board.

So then they had more time together and they have become super close. I mean, they travel together, they talk on the phone constantly, but they’re both very clear to say it didn’t start that way. They always like got along and had nice chemistry and they coasted along like that for a long time, a couple years probably, and had a lot of value in each other’s lives really.

Kind of like coworkers, but that friendship does take time. , , to jump to taking a trip together. Not even a retreat for work, but an actual, just for fun years, years. , you’re planting seeds. You, you gotta put in a lot of time. I think it would be so nice people didn’t take.

It’s so personally, if somebody’s trying to leave it at work cause you don’t wanna burn a bridge, it’s very easy to kind of act a little standoffish after you ask somebody for a happy hour and they’re like, oh I’m so sorry I’m really busy these couple weeks. I think human nature, unfortunately sometimes when people give us a soft no, we get really withdrawn and now you’re never gonna be friends now

you’re being kind of snotty

Now you’re like not being easy to talk to. .

[00:13:58] Lisa: You know, it’s interesting that you said that because I have, a colleague that’s turned a friend where I probably said no to her. I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve said no. On personal things like it’s, it’s a long list, but every time I’ve said no, because I really do like her and respect her and want to do something fun with her outside of all this work stuff.

And so every time I say no, I say to her, , please don’t stop asking me because I really do want to do this. I don’t know if she believes me, but it truly is. , this past summer we were able to go out on the boat. I’m Minnetonka, which was a fun thing. And I was like, well, thank you for not, not stopping, not stopping asking because I was honest when I said to you, I wanted you to keep asking me.

So, you know, there are small ways that you. Encourage it, but make sure that it’s very slow. And I’ve known her for, I mean, years, right? So, and I’m a slow person. Everything I do is a little bit slower. I process slower. So for me personally, that’s what it looks like. So I just encourage those women who jump into those relationships, , romantic and professional and friendship , , just step back for a little minute and maybe do the baby steps.

[00:15:11] Nina: I think that’s a great point about being really clear in the communication that you are interested and. Kind of like in the example that we were talking about at the beginning of your client who didn’t really want that from her colleague being clear on the opposite. Not like you have to say, I don’t wanna ever hang out, but you’re just not going to be available, period.

You have to kind of be pretty firm on that. I’m so sorry. Every day I, I have to pick up my kid at X time and I just, you know, then I have to get home and make dinner and you just kind of leave it like, you are not going to be going to happy hour. That’s just not something you’re doing. And they’ll probably get the idea and you still be friendly.

Let’s flip it for a second. This will be our last topic on here. I think something I see a lot of, and I’ve been guilty of it myself, and I’ve been in this creative space for like a decade, so I’ve learned to knock it off. But, so I can use myself as an example, but when we overtax our personal friends with our work stuff, so like that happens too where we kind of confuse our personal friends with our customer.

, Lisa, I cannot tell you how. Much I hear from people, , this is not my thing, but how often I hear from people they don’t want to be their friend’s, customers, or, you know, in a case like mine, they don’t necessarily, they’re not the reader. They’re not the listener necessarily.

[00:16:23] Nina: They might be, some of my friends like my stuff, but some of my friends, it’s not for them. Not whatever. They’re not podcast listeners. They’re not readers. It’s just not their thing. So we don’t really talk about it.

But the customer thing, people who are selling something or having events, , , I have a lot of author friends, you know, I’m a writer. I don’t have a book, but I have a lot of author friends. I’ll, I’m gonna come to your reading and I’m gonna buy some copies of your book and I’ll probably put it on social media a couple times, , I’m not gonna put it on social media every week.

I’m not gonna share every reading that you have every time your book is appearing somewhere. And, and I know how important that is. And still, it would be too much to ask of me, your friend, to put it on my Facebook and my Instagram. Every other day, right? I found sometimes I think people have inappropriate expectations of their friends.

Have you

[00:17:10] Lisa: Yeah, Yeah, I think, I mean, that’s huge. I mean, I’ve experienced that myself. , in the beginning. , it was all blurred to me. , if you were my friend, you were gonna show up for me, to the 10th degree, you were gonna be at everything, you were gonna do everything. .

I didn’t understand in the beginning that, , exactly what you said, that I was, I was taxing people too much and, , my expectations were too high and I didn’t have, , An appreciation for them showing up for me in the way that works for them. And I think that is, that is what I’ve learned over time and what I’ve, you know, helped to talk women through is just the reality that, , They’re your personal friends and family, and they love you and they’re gonna be there for you.

But that doesn’t mean exactly like you said, that they’re gonna post everything, every single thing they’re gonna share, they’re gonna show up at all the events. , again, it’s, it’s one of those learning opportunities I think, especially in this space because you do get, very personal.

[00:18:08] Nina: Sometimes I. A little pit in my stomach when I see that someone’s like starting on the event train and I’m I’m not coming to a lot of evening things. And I, , I sort of have a, a red line on the Jewish Sabbath. I don’t go to things on Friday nights or during the day on Saturday, which sometimes it used to be something that was hard for me.

Oh, what a pain. I can’t do a thing on a Friday night. Now. It’s like a helpful. It actually is. It, I don’t wanna say, gets me outta stuff cuz it’s not that I don’t wanna support people, but she can’t attend everything. You really can’t. So you cannot be at everybody’s everything.

it’s good to have limits like that. , that would be my advice sometimes if, if you are someone out there who has a friend with a new business, a new something, lots of events and they’re constantly inviting you to stuff is, you might have to have some red lines and say, you know, I’m gonna come to two things,

which two things would be most helpful? I think a friend, somebody with a business would appreciate that. Maybe somebody’s worried they’re gonna have a really low attendance in something and so they might say, well, I would love if you would come to this thing at this place. Cause I’m worried people aren’t gonna come.

[00:19:10] Lisa: ,

and I think, , conversations that I’ve had over time, especially with colleagues and friends, is just understanding and being able to communicate the specifics, right? Nina, I would really like X not just as broad. I could use your help and support and la la la la, la. , more being very specific.

This event is important to me. Or, you know, I really would love that specific connection with Jackie or whatever. That’s more helpful if you can be intentional with your friends slash colleagues of where you need their support. And again, just say, I can’t do that right now. And you know, I’m happy to support you in other ways.

This is what I can do. So again, it comes back to communication,

[00:19:54] Nina: that’s the bottom line in all of this. Lisa, I feel like we have covered this topic pretty well. You feel good about it?

[00:20:00] Lisa: I feel good. I feel good.

I appreciate you.

[00:20:03] Nina: I appreciate you and your clients are lucky to have you because I know you’re doing all kinds of work with them. But even getting into these kind of personal things to help them just have good solid relationships with work people, with friends, , you’re really covering all the bases and the work you do.

And

lisa, thank you so much for your time. And listeners, thank you for being here. Come back in a couple weeks for your next episode. When our friendships are going well and our work friendships, we are happier all around. Bye.