Meghan: [00:00:00] I know they seem like small things, but I think they have ultimately added to a bigger shift in how I think about including people in my life who are single and how I wanted to be included and how I felt good when I was included

Nina: Welcome to Dear Nina, conversations about friendship. I’m your host, Nina Badin. I’ve been writing about friendship for over a decade and podcasting about it for almost four years. We are getting really close to that four year mark. Today’s episode has been a long time coming I needed the perfect guest and I have the perfect guest. today we are talking about rules for supporting your single friends. These are sensible rules for anyone to think about how to treat other people, but we are focused on how married, partnered, coupled people, however you want to say it, can be more supportive and mindful of their single friends. My guest is Meghan Keane, the author of Party of One. Be Your Own Best Life [00:01:00] Partner.

Meghan is the founder and supervising editor for NPR R’S Life Kit, which brings listeners advice and actionable information about personal finances, health, parenting, relationships, friendships for sure and more. Prior to Life Kit, Meghan was the producer for NPR R’S Award-winning podcast, Invisia, and she’s also the founding producer of NPRs TED Radio Hour, which has consistently been one of NPR R’S top podcasts since it debut. Meghan is a journalist and she is a native of the DC area,

I’m excited for you to meet her. I enjoyed her book, party of One so much. Hi Meghan. Welcome to Dear Nina.

Meghan: Nina, thank you so much for having me. Glad to be here.

Nina: So you said something in your book that I think is a great place to start and also a really excellent ingredient for why your book works, which is that it’s the book that you wish you had when you were in the middle of this haze. That’s the part I want you to explain first for listeners. What was the haze?

Meghan: it’s all me search, right? A lot of books are me search. So I wanted to dig into this feeling of why do I feel [00:02:00] so bad, knowing that being single is a completely valid and amazing place to be. And, you can have a full life. But I still wanted a partner and that kind of push and pull, was making me feel very upset and, frustrated and very shameful. And so the haze refers to a lot of these societal expectations that we all are kind of given from the get go, about marriages, like a coronation for your adulthood. that’s what you should be driving towards. even if you don’t have someone in your life who is really pushing that that direct narrative of you need to be married. Why aren’t you married? It kind of still seeps in where you’re like, oh, I see friends coupling up. They’re, getting to go on trips that maybe I don’t have access to, or, they’re able to afford a house. So there’s still these signs around you that marriage and partnership is where your life should be driving towards.

And for me, the haze was, Very claustrophobic of this feeling of, I should be married, I should be with someone, I should [00:03:00] have a partnership. there’s nothing wrong with being married or wanting connection. It’s very natural. But I think the part where it feels, harmful is when that’s your soul focus.

And it was mine for a while too, because it is really easy to look at the thing you don’t have in your life, and be really focused on that and ignore the rest of your life. I had a good job, I had a good apartment, I had good relationships, great friendships.

I knew I was overall happy, but it just felt like this big crater was in my life, and I was so focused on that. I describe it like haze because I want people to know that It’s almost like fog where when you’re in the middle of it, it feels very all consuming. It can feel dangerous but as soon as your head is outside of the fog, you’re like, oh, I see so much clarity here now around me. And all I had to do was kind of poke my head out.

Nina: I think that’s what your book does really well, especially, and obviously we’re going to get to rules that married or coupled people you don’t have to be married, but people in any kind of couplehood could follow to be more mindful [00:04:00] of their single friends and more welcoming. And Before we get there, I also want you to talk about the beginning part of your book where you focus a lot on what you call singlism, and I think it’s important to get some of those points out because it really is the context for which people who are in a couple could be more thoughtful. that’s part of the haze. I think you’re stuck in these stereotypes, other people’s stereotypes. And maybe if you’re single, you have taken some of those on to your point, because even if the family you grew up in was careful not to give those over, another thing I would think about that in life is like weight. You know, you might try so hard as a parent. I, I know.

I really try as a parent not to give over all the stuff that I grew up with in, in the nineties. but it almost doesn’t matter, especially with social media. These stereotypes that are very real, whether people set ’em to you directly or not.

Meghan: The propganda machine, is that strong, right? Yeah, you’re totally right. Even if you’re not pushing the you know, low fat snack wells or whatever on a kid, they are going to see people favoring thin bodies. And the same thing happens with [00:05:00] singlism. once you kind of see it, it’s kind of hard to unsee.

Singlism is a term that was coined by this researcher, Bella Apollo. She’s kind of pioneered a lot of really amazing research about singles. She describes it as this systematic marginalization and discrimination against singles. And it could happen at, a policy level, How we treat singles when it comes to healthcare and housing and taxes.

But it also happens on a very, day-to-day level at work. A single person being asked to stay late or work a weekend when a person with children who’s married, gets off the hook. Or in even just like in your day-to-day life, where people assume you might be lonely or pathetic or sad.

All these negative ideas of a person just because you don’t happen to be in a relationship. so Singlism it’s something that as soon as you see it, you’re like, oh, wow. all these assumptions. when married people sometimes are with their single friends, I think single people in general can just be seen as a problem to be solved.

If that’s the setup, then of course [00:06:00] people who are partnered or married are going to think, well, I could set you up with this person. Or, oh, I wouldn’t set you up with that person. you’re way too good for them. Like a piece on a chessboard for them. and they’re trying to win the game for you. And did you even ask me if I want to get set up? You know, like, grabbing the phone and being like, oh, I never got on Tinder because I met my husband before then.

Let’s see what this is like. All these ways that married people or partner people think they’re kind of engaging with their single friend’s life, but they’re really being condescending, even if they don’t know it, because they’re seeing, the single person for only their relationship status rather than themselves as a whole person. My whole beating of the drum is seeing someone as just a full human being is actually just going to be better and kinder for everyone, including the married person, no one just wants to be seen as married

Nina: Or a mom. That’s what I makes, that’s what makes me think of, you know, so, it’s good to hear a perspective, on this show from, from both. You know, I was very young when I got married. I was 23, which is very [00:07:00] unusual. Now. We did not plan on that. It’s not like I went to college and said, oh, I’m going to get married like a child age, you know? No, because I I have nieces now and cousins who are that age, and I look at them and I’m like, who let

Meghan: Mm-hmm.

Nina: Do that. I don’t know, but I, I did it, it worked out. We have four kids, but I also have a very robust career that I feel like very few people ask me about.

Meghan: Yes,

Nina: always about the kids. That’s what I’m getting to. It is always about the kid. especially now that my kids are a little older my oldest is 20, down to 13, and the questions are college, college admissions people really interested in whether they’re married, not married, whether they have kids or not kids, everybody’s interested in college admissions. That seems to be like at this point in my life, the topic. And it’s so interesting. It’s like all anybody talks about to me,

Meghan: No one is one thing. Novelty is the spice of life, and variety is the spice of life. when someone asks you anything else, it’s like, oh. Wow. Yes, of course. I would love to talk about that. It’s good for everyone to just kind [00:08:00] of unlock different things to talk about and be interested in, in our friends. Because well, one, it is just more fun and more interesting. And two, it helps everyone else feel like yeah, like a, like a more complete whole person.

Nina: You, you bring up a point in your book. I had, Dr. Marissa Franco on my podcast as well. One of the quotes you had from her, I would like to read it. So the point you’re getting at here, and I don’t remember exactly where it falls in the book, but it is about the reality of when somebody has a change in their life. So perhaps your friend did get married or have a kid, there is going to be some change, in how much you see each other and how that’s going to work . You wrote, just because a friendship changes doesn’t mean it’s spoiled forever. Franco urges people to look for mutuality in a friendship, especially when riding the wave of change. That means thinking about both your needs and your friend’s needs. Then figure out whose needs are more urgent right now and see if you are willing to be flexible.

If you’re willing to meet your friend at her home after she puts the kid to bed and it doesn’t cause you to feel resentment later, [00:09:00] then congrats. I love this. You are maintaining a friendship. If there’s a commitment to reciprocity from both parties, just maybe in a new way, that’s a friendship transition success.

And I’m going to say one more thing about that before I let you talk because it is like leading us to how married friends can support single friends. And this one maybe is the flip. if a single person could do something that might help ease that early time. It makes me think of my very, very first episode, and that was 140 some episodes ago.

My mom was my guest and my mom. Yeah, she’s the best and I’ve quoted her a lot in my friendship column. She’s very wise. She just turned 80. The episode was about a friend who will only text. And what do you do about, maybe you want to have a phone call sometimes, but this friend, just for whatever reason, maybe it’s anxiety or whatever, that friend will only text.

cause people write to me a lot, they write me anonymous letters. And so the person was writing about, oh, I don’t want to just text. I want to be on the phone. And then what do you do when you’re in this impasse? It’s, to me, it’s sort of similar, [00:10:00] this idea of whoever’s needs are stronger. My mom was very calm about it and was like, if that’s what that friend needs more than I need to call. because my mom’s more of a call person. I let the friend win. Whoever needs it more at the moment. And I liked this point in the book about that can change.

Meghan: Yes, yes. It’s dynamic, right? Yeah. I think there’s often so much talk and assumptions about how boundaries work. Well, this is what I need. This is what you need. And then often they’re treated as almost like a zero sum game. And it’s something that Marissa is also really, wonderful about talking about in her book Platonic, is this idea of communal boundaries.

What can you actually offer? Instead of thinking, I can’t offer this. I’m not a texting person, I’m only a phone person. Think about what you can give, maybe I’ll text you about, a quick hello, quick check-in. I can give you that, but I would prefer to have longer conversations about

a life thing on the phone or in person even. So thinking not about I can’t give this at all but what can you offer instead that helps bring you [00:11:00] closer to that person? I also think there’s just like this assumption and I think women in particular, this is completely, hearsay maybe, but for my own life I think that the only types of friendships that are seen with women in particular as the best friendships are the ones that are so deeply close and you know everything about them. You spend all your time with them. And as you get older, that gets harder to maintain. so then you automatically feel like you’re failing friendship if you don’t have this extremely close friendship. So, of course, things like kids or a job move or moving across the country is going to throw that dynamic for a loop.

So I also think mutuality comes in having a broader definition of how you can have friendship, because change will always happen at every stage of life as much as we don’t want it to. my best friend moved years ago from DC to New York. She used to be a block away and now she’s several hundred miles away.

I feel like we were just really intentional about keeping up on the phone, seeing each other, having a commitment to each other and giving what we [00:12:00] could and writing that wave rather than, just being like, well, this isn’t happening anymore. So, this isn’t to say that the single friend always, you know, coming back to that needs to be the person who shows up after bedtime, right?

For the kids, I also write in the book if you’re that single friend, if you have a birthday and you really love your birthday, it’s like, Hey, I would really love to do something special for my birthday. I know you have the kids in bedtime. Any way you can get coverage, I would love for you to come out, would mean a lot to me, expressing when something is really important to you. A lot of good TV and movies I feel like would just be solved if people just talk to each other. I feel that same way about friendship, right?

Nina: true. Oh my gosh. You’re pre, you know, preach. Yes.

Meghan: It’s just like, just have a quick conversation. Yeah, and I often find that zero conflict relationships and friendships

can sometimes be pretty surface. having healthy, constructive conflict is the stuff that can bring you together, even if it’s just a uncomfortable conversation. If that’s the most conflict you have, I think that’s still great, right?

Nina: Is such a

Meghan: can get you what you need.

Nina: you’re giving. Actually, I think Marissa said this too. You are giving a [00:13:00] gift to your friend by offering them the chance to show up for you in the way that you have stated. And I this, my favorite quote, I know you’re going to like it related to what you just said. I had an educator, on my show, Ruchi Koval, and she’s written a lot of fabulous books and she said something along the lines, paraphrasing. There are people who you never have conflict with, who never annoy you. You never annoy, and those people are called acquaintances.

Meghan: Oh, yep.

Nina: Of course, you’re going to have had conflict with your close friends. The people, yeah. Who never ruffle your feathers. You don’t know them that well,

Meghan: exactly.

Nina: they don’t know you that well.

Meghan: It to be known as a very deep, beautiful thing. why not open the door for that in your life.

Nina: Let’s get to the rules, you don’t have exact rules in the book, and it’s not like that. It’s very nuanced about where married people, coupled people can show up better for their single friends. we’ve talked a little bit about both sides of it, but I actually really do want to focus on where the people who are coupled up can show up better. Because I have definitely heard from listeners who feel that that point of view has not been represented enough on the [00:14:00] show.

And it’s totally fair. And like I said, I’m not doing that on purpose. I’ve just been married so freaking long. I’m trying to be intentional about making sure that at that point of view is really represented. And you’ve mentioned to me that you are in a relationship, it’s even more deep for you that you can see how a person can show up for their friends who are not in a relationship.

Meghan: I wrote this book kind of at the tail end of, a long bout of singleness. I’d been single pretty much my whole adult life up until my mid thirties. which I know for some people it might sound very long. For some people it might sound very short. it felt long to me, let’s put it that way.

And I just by happenstance happened to meet my boyfriend, my partner, while I was in the process of selling and writing this book. what happened was, as I was writing about singleness and really just skills about how to be in a relationship with yourself, I was like, oh, these are still skills I need as a partnered person.

The relationship got more serious. We moved in together. I was telling him we got to be really good [00:15:00] to our single friends. We have to be extremely intentional about that because I know better, way better now and because I lived it too. So we have, yeah, a few rules.

One of them is that I don’t ask my single friends about their dating life until they bring it up to me. Now, this Might depend on your friend and if they’re even dating, et cetera. But I just find that my friends who are actively dating who want to talk about it will bring it up.

even if they do bring it up, my other kind of sub rule is I really don’t give advice unless I’m asked explicitly by that person. To the point now where I have girlfriends who are like, I am asking for advice. They know my rules now. I think because when people are partnered, they know how one relationship worked, their own right. How they  got together. They don’t know how, They don’t know how, everyone got together. And a lot of it is just luck and timing. And I know so many people who got into relationships, but they didn’t know who they were or took the time to like do a lot of soul searching.

they just like someone, they got into a relationship. So [00:16:00] it’s not like married people have this secret book about, or you know, sense about yeah, I’m a fully of all person now. I say don’t give advice because I think sometimes it can come off as really disheartening to the single person.

You don’t really know the realities of dating right now, depending on how long you’ve been married or with someone, you don’t know the kind of long stretches of sadness, maybe that can happen or the long stretches of complete joy because you’re maybe dating a lot of people or not dating a lot of people. So I pretty much just wait for someone to bring up their dating life if they want to give me an update. I’m very affirming. unless there is something where there’s a true red flag, I don’t really give a lot of advice about, well you should do this, or, a lot of the back and forth about should you get involved with this person, not involved with this person?

Because honestly, what I find is most people are going to do what they’re going to do, especially when it comes to dating. So it’s like kind of doesn’t really matter. And then I also say another rule is to not treat your single friends dating life like entertainment. I think a lot of people will be like, oh, we’ve been [00:17:00] married for so long.

They think it’s like maybe almost a compliment to be like, tell us about your, crazy dating story. tell us about a really bad date you went on. That can be very painful. when I was single, I got stood up on multiple dates. and it sucks. sometimes married people can forget about the hope that can ramp up when you’re dating, even if it’s, around three or five dates and then it just bottoms out and you just feel like crap, I feel like I’m starting over again. it’s very frustrating. It’s a Sisyphean task. that is not entertainment. I would say,

Nina: Yeah. It’s not a TV show.

Meghan: it’s not a TV show. if someone wants to share and be like, this, truly wild thing happened, can you believe this? yeah, that they’re offering it great, but I would say let your single friends lead when they, when they talk about dating stuff. So that’s kinda a lot of don’ts, And so let’s, let’s focus on some positive, right? Some dos I would say celebrate your friends. do celebrate your single friends.

Remind yourself that Even if they’re not getting married or maybe having kids, or maybe they are having kids on their own, make sure you help some celebrate the seemingly smaller wins, but that can feel very meaningful. they [00:18:00] got a new pet, amazing, they got a promotion or they’re working on a writing project, they have a painting in a local show.

Celebrate them and let them know. I have a friend who’s really good about every time we hang out, she texts me right after being like, it was so great to see you. I’m so proud that you did this. that feels nice, right? And so it’s

Nina: That’s a good tip for everyone,

Meghan: it’s like a digital thank you note. Just being like, thank you for hanging out. And so when you see a single friend doing something wonderful, if you hang out with them give them positive affirmation. And make it specific. that also Just fills people up with joy.

ask them about their hobbies. ask them about their passions and ask ’em about their work. Just like you’re saying, you know, you love your kids, but you don’t only want to talk about college admissions.You want to talk about other things. Be deeply curious.

This is a mindfulness technique, just keep mining that curiosity even about for someone you’ve known for years, What’s something you haven’t asked them about before? And they’ll probably be refreshed that you brought it to a different level. and then I would also say help your friends out. Help your single friends out in the small really practical ways. it’s so [00:19:00] interesting to me that we reserve a lot of a completely nonsexual activities for marriage, or relationship like picking your spouse up from the airport. I know friends do that, but it’s somehow we’re like, oh, but I would only grocery shop for my family.

Or whatever, you know what I mean? I’m not saying like you have to always every weekend go out and grocery shop for your, your single friends. But think about things that you would do for your spouse that are errand based or menial tasks.And if you have the opportunity to do it for a single friend, just offer it. And because I find when people say, let me know what I can do, If you’re the person on the receiving end, it’s so vague and you’re like, it does not work.

Nina: No, that’s

Meghan: if you’re like, I would love to watch your dog next time you go outta town. That is a great specific task that then someone can be like, yes, I’ll take you up on that. or even small things like when you go out for a walk, buy them coffee. little acts of kindness. Doesn’t have to be a monetary. It could be watching the pet, like I said, helping out with a home project. I’ve been seeing a lot of people online doing these home maintenance co-ops where they help each other. Where it’s oh, I’m redoing my [00:20:00] bathroom. You happen to know a lot about plumbing.

Can you come over for half a day on a weekend Obviously there’s various degrees of this. I would not be the friend that you call for that. I am the friend, like, if you have a dog and you’re going outta town. Happy to watch that dog. I love that dog.

I know they seem like small things, but I think they have ultimately added to a bigger shift in how I think about including people in my life who are single and how I wanted to be included and how I felt good when I was included

Nina: Did you like being included with a couple or would you rather not? You I know not everyone’s the same.

Meghan: I think it just depends on the couple. I think of my best friend. I felt very lucky that I had a friendship with her husband and I still do. And I feel very included. but, and, and what was nice was like, it was never oh, I’m a third wheel with this specific friend. the advice there is, if you are married, if you’re about to hang out with a single friend, think about the last time you hung out with them, just one-on-one. again, variety, spice of life. think about, okay, this last time they came over and they had [00:21:00] dinner with me and my husband. But maybe next time it’s just a solo time that we do.

Especially if they’re a close friend. single friends I think appreciate that. as a partner person, if all of a sudden you’re like, oh, I didn’t realize your husband was coming to this hangout.

Nina: I think that would be the very unlikely situation. The reason I brought it up is I personally would be much more likely to only do one-on-one time . And I was thinking, I wonder if the spice it up would be the other way around where I actually, I would invite them over to do something with the family. Like I tend to do you see what I’m saying? Like, I think I reserve it for one-on-one.

But yeah, like maybe it would actually feel good to be included in something larger. Sometimes people want to talk to my husband, they like shove me over. They actually want to talk to him.

Meghan: Yeah, it’s just friend dependent . I remember being single and a host I worked for she had me for dinner. She had her family and like the next door neighbor’s, kids and family who came over. And we all just had dinner around, a big, you know, the big kitchen island.

And I was like, this is great. it was just fun to feel a part of something bigger. At least for me at the time, I wasn’t like, oh, I don’t have this, I was just like, it just felt nice to be cared for, someone made me a meal. different [00:22:00] people will feel differently about that, but yeah, it’s just for independent.

My thing is no one ever feels bad about getting an invitation. They just feel nice to feel included and then I think it’s up to you as a single person to then decide does that feel like a nourishing type of invitation? And what’s after you go and feels like a broader community? Or did it feel depleting? Hopefully it feels nourishing, especially if, they follow the rules about how to interact with you. It.

Nina: There’s I don’t want to skip over any rules, so we’ll go back to more if you, if you had more, but I don’t want to forget that I think this is less about married and single and more about having kids and not having kids. those aren’t always the same, right?

I think there is something that people who have kids that I hear from in their fifties and sixties it tends to be more so, can really learn from people who didn’t have kids, which is to prioritize their friendships so that when the kids are out of the house, they don’t all of a sudden go, oh my gosh. My whole life has been on the bleachers sitting and watching the kids play sports and that, that’s who I [00:23:00] hear from a lot, Meghan. Their kids are gone now and they really feel like they have no friends and they don’t know where to start. And I have lots of ideas how people can start.

We don’t even need to go there. I have a thousand episodes about that. I think it is something that people with kids can learn from people who have had a wonderful, robust adult life without kids, is that they didn’t wait for any certain special time to prioritize friendships and to make friends in different ways.

Not just because you happen to be in a place where people who also had kids the same age. some adults who revolved their lives around the kids missed that social muscle for two decades,

Meghan: Oh, completely. I feel very lucky that I grew up in a household. I’m an only child. and we, I didn’t live close to a lot of people my age. we’d have to get in a car I couldn’t just run over to someone’s house, you know. But my parents had a lot of dinner parties and a lot of people over for barbecues and stuff.

So we, we were always having really big gatherings even for a small family. I just saw examples of how my parents [00:24:00] had all these d different types of friends in their lives and we would just show up to things because it’s like, well this is our friend, like we’re going to show up for the friend.

that modeling really helped me think there’s a lot of different types of relationships. Things will always change. for instance, I don’t like the term empty nest. I think it’s a little.

Nina: Do you notice? I did not use it.

Meghan: Yes, I Gretchen Rubin

Nina: Open door.  Open  door. Yes. I’m a Gretchen fan too. She’s also been on the show.

Meghan: yes. She’s wonderful. , what single people do understand is that you do have to be creative about your community Things kind of shift and change always. what, that will help you navigate the change more, I think in general. And I think if you are in a place where your life is less traditional I think you, you are forced to think about what is a family, and how do you make connections and then I think that helps you write the waves better.

Nina: And like how do you spend your time that there are things you might have developed already by the time you’re in that decade of life? I’m thinking 50 sixties because that’s who I’m hearing from, who are at that stage. And there’s nothing wrong with [00:25:00] being at that stage and for the first time you’re kinda look up and you’re like.

I have all this time. What do I want to do with my time? But it’s something that maybe if you’re in your twenties, thirties, forties, you can learn from people around you who, are already doing that. There are people in your orbit perhaps, who already have put some thought into, how do I want to spend my time?

like you said, if it’s a less traditional setup and there’s a lot to learn from that.

Meghan: Well, one thing I’ll, I’ll say also about that is that I learned from Marissa Franco also is look for fellow transitioners. people also going through a change like you who are also have kids that are now in college or are out living out on their own. those people are usually hungry for new connections.

in terms of singleness too, I mean, that’s how I started becoming really close with a, a friend of mine who I hadn’t seen in a while. And I was like, oh, how’s your boyfriend? She’s like, oh, we actually broke up a while ago. And I was like, oh, But you’re single, and we ended up hanging out so much that summer and really bonded.

Nina: I like that story a lot in your book because it spoke to something that I probably spend 80% [00:26:00] of my episodes talking about, which is making a move. There are moments in your book where I was like, yes. somebody has to say

Meghan: Platonic courtship. Yeah, exactly. The long story short is this is a coworker friend of mine who I saw at the, our DC public pool one summer. And I was like, oh, I should go say hi. Or it could have been easy for me to be like, I’m not going to go say hi. But I said hi, and I, you know, we struck up a conversation and I found out that she was more recently single and I was like.

Let’s hang out more. And we did and it was great. And we became much closer. As the result I became friends with another one of her friends and vice versa. I love when friend groups become friends with each other. And it just kind of expanded my world.

And I felt really grateful that she was also receptive. She was fresh off a breakup. I was less so, I was more in the perma single state at the point, but I was like, oh. You would be a great person to, to fold into my life right now. Because we’re kind of in similar stages.

Nina: but it really rested on you doing something. No wishing, no, hoping, wondering, oh, I wonder if she would be receptive. You just have to try. Not everyone’s receptive. We both [00:27:00] know that it, you and I agree on a lot of things and also on, what reciprocity might look like. I talk about that a lot. And you mention it in your book too. I it will change. what you can do for someone, what someone’s going to do for you. before we wrap up, were there any other rules that I cut you off of? I didn’t mean to,

Meghan: No, you’re good. I would say it’s less a rule and more something to remind listeners of, which is that, research shows that single people often have more social ties than married people. And I think that. it’s a good thing to remember because there is such a myth and stereotype that single people are lonely. I would say in my experience, they’re mostly lonely because they’re human, one, looking for connection. And two, the unnecessary shame that gets put on single people.

And kind of like we were just talking about, single people I think often have more social ties because they’re kind of have to be creative about how they think about connections and relationships. I think when everyone reduces the shame around singleness, it helps everyone. It helps [00:28:00] married people. If there’s a death, or your spouse wants to divorce all of a sudden, or, you know, there’s so many ways.

Marriage is not a guarantee either. if you are in those situations, it will be hard, of course, but you’ll be better suited if you don’t have all these assumptions about what singleness is. It will feel a lot easier and smoother if you think of yourself as just someone going through a life transition rather than I am a bad, sad person just because you don’t happen to be in a relationship. I really do think that being more expansive about how we think about partnership and diversifying our social connections is just ultimately much kinder and easier for everybody.

Nina: That’s a great place to end I think that’s a beautiful point to end on, and that it is better for everybody. Meghan, thank you for, being on here. Thank you for your book Party of one. I will have all all the ways people can find you, the book, your work in the show notes. it’s really just a pleasure to meet you

Meghan: Oh, wonderful speaking with you. Thank you so much for having me, Nina.

Nina: listeners. Come back next week [00:29:00] when our friendships are going well. We are happier all around. Bye.