Dani: People can’t read your mind. You’ve got to speak up. Here’s my big takeaway from this. If they are true friends, you can say anything to them. You can say it in any form. It doesn’t have to be necessarily articulate, it could be fragmented, but if they are your true friend, they will hear it and they’ll take it in.

Nina: Welcome to Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship. I am your host, Nina Badzin. Today’s episode is the perfect side by side to last week’s episode about how to make and meet fellow mom friends. as I was recording that episode, I could just hear the voice of listeners and people who respond to episodes and say, but Nina, not everyone has kids.

And I know that. I absolutely know that. Of course, I know that. I have the perfect guest to talk about that with us. Dani Alpert is the bestselling author of Hello, who is this Margaret, A new collection of [00:01:00] humorous essays and the memoir, the Girlfriend Mom, which was the winner of the 2020 Story Circle Network Gilda Award for comedy honoring Gilda Radner. Her work has appeared in numerous outlets and she has spent decades working in theater, television, film, performing, writing, directing. She’s also a Pilates instructor and an advocate for the Down Syndrome community and. She’s my guest today because she is child free by choice. She’s very clear on this.

She feels, she always knew that she did not want children the way some people feel they knew they wanted children. She talks about that a little bit in the episode, we really talk about these longstanding friendships that she has had where everyone else has kids. I don’t mean everyone in the world has kids.

I mean everybody in her crew of friends got married and had kids. Dani has some very direct and needed advice about how to handle that situation, which you can extrapolate to any situation where [00:02:00] everybody, quote unquote everybody, but the people in your life are all going through a certain kind of thing or in a certain moment in life, and you are not.

It could be, I, I’ve done episodes about being the single friend, You could also be the only one who’s married, the only one who’s partnered up, and everybody else is single, doing a different kind of thing. When everybody is in one certain kind of lifestyle or stage, and you are not, whatever the topic is, issues can arise if you don’t communicate about them.

Because it is something to be discussed and dealt with, and if you don’t discuss it or at least think about it and how it could affect your friendships, resentment can really grow.

Dani said when she wrote to me about this idea through my friendship experiences, listeners will hear lessons and advice that can be applied to any friendship. And I really believe that this topic is about kids, but it could be about anything that you can put in the placeholder there of, I have X and my friends don’t, or My friends have X and I don’t.

Okay. Then what? Let’s get [00:03:00] to it with Dani. Welcome to Dani Alpert.

Dani: Hi. Happy to be here.

Nina: I really am grateful I have you today to talk about a topic that I know has been on listeners minds.

I have a Facebook group called Dear Nina, the group or people write either under their own name or write anonymously, and I also get letters in my inbox anonymously. That’s why it’s called Dear Nina. I’ve been doing the, these topics for 10 years and I would say not constantly, but consistently, I will get a letter of some kind about somebody who has chosen not to have kids and also someone who has not necessarily chosen not to have kids, but they are the only one among their friends who doesn’t have kids.

and we will get into the difference there, I think. But either way, their friends have kids, they do not have kids. Presents its own challenges, and what I loved about your letter to me discussing an idea for an episode was you have come onto the other side of those challenges and I think you can really help listeners.

So let’s just start of at the beginning of your story with these friendships.

Dani: [00:04:00] I moved to a new school in fifth grade and there’s about five of us. There were five gals, in fifth grade, and we all just bonded instantly as one does when you’re 10. and we have remained friends for now, 49 years. I’ll be 59 in a year and a half. I mean in a, in a week and a half. We’ve been through good times, bad times, but the thing about us was we never, ever, ever, not one conversation was about getting married or having kids.

I don’t know what we were talking about, but it never was around getting married or having kids. It was careers. It was, it was just a whole host of other things. So in our twenties, I think we all got married, so that was like, whoa, what are we doing? You know? It was a little like, we’re all getting married, but we never even wanted to get married, but we did. So it was fine., We excused ourselves, but then.

Nina: That’s funny.

Dani: But [00:05:00] then one of the friends, had kids like right away, got married and had her first kid, and it was like, okay, all right. That’s weird.

Nina: Were you all still living in New York at this time?

Dani: well first I had moved to Seattle and then I moved to LA where I spent most of my young adult life. And then one by one, these friends started to have kids. And it wasn’t just one, it was two. I mean, they all, I think, model kids. It was like, whatcha doing? I knew from day one that I never wanted, kids just didn’t want it. I like to tell people, ’cause people have this kinda weird responses to, what do you mean you, you never wanted kids?

It’s like being, five, seven. you’re five seven. You really have no choice in the matter. That’s just what you are. That’s your height. So this was, I don’t want kids. it just started this whole other chapter and phases with myself and my friends, [00:06:00] having them all having kids, and I’m the odd man out.

Nina: Did you, uh, make any new friends with the idea in mind that you were looking for people who don’t have kids?

Dani: never, it’s so hard to find friends and to make friends and to find people that, get you and you have the same values and prayers. It was never, no, it was, if you respond to this person, I’m not in a position to, to be that picky. I mean, it was like you either bond with someone or you don’t, whether they have kids or not.

Now, obviously these friends that do have kids, it presented some issues. Just kind of natural issues of the time that they didn’t have for me. they can’t just pick up and leave like I could to go on a road trip or travel or any of those things. that was tough but I did make friends that, just happened to not want kids [00:07:00] as well.

Nina: Okay, So you did.

Dani: Yeah, so I was able, but what I’m saying is I wasn’t like actively searching for like, I can’t be friends with you, Barbara. You’ve got two kids. I’m sorry.

Nina: Right. Or you might have kids, so you know, I don’t want to get close , ’cause that I could see that being tempting. Like have you already been through that and not wanting to like repeat that same cycle?

Dani: Yeah, that’s a good point. even with all of the challenges, I am really lucky because none of my friends, kids shamed me or thrusted their kids upon me. They hardly ever talked about their kids. my friends are not your typical, look at pictures of my kids moms. No offense to all the moms out there, and as a matter of fact, there were so many times where I would be with them and I would be asking about the kids. They didn’t bring ’em up. I’m like, Hey, how’s so and so and how’s so and so doing? Oh, they’re fine, whatever.

And I think part of it may have been you’d have to ask them. was out of respect for my [00:08:00] choices. So I think they didn’t maybe want to make me, bring me into this world that I chose not to be a part of, I don’t really know. It’s a, it’s actually a good question that I might want to ask them,

Nina: It’s nice. However, I think that you asked them how the kids were, ’cause I’m just thinking about myself. I have four kids and if I was very close friends with someone and they never asked about my kids, like ever, I would probably would be like, hello. That’s a huge part of my life.

Whether that person chose to have kids or not, like would be sort of irrelevant to the fact that like, I have kids and so it’d be strange to not ask about them. And I feel that way also, not about kids, but about, I’ve said this many times in the podcast. I think it’s strange if I can spend hours or multiple times out with someone and they never ask about the podcast.

They only ask about the kids,

it would be like weird if people didn’t ask about your work, about your books that are out, and wouldn’t that be just the most frustrating thing if your friends ever asked?

Dani: It would be, but it happens all the [00:09:00] time. I think people are very self-involved. I think because of that and because I love my friends so much and because I don’t want to be. disrespectful and it just being a caring human being to ask, even though I genuinely maybe didn’t care as much as I projected that I cared, but of course I asked about how so-and-so’s doing and, what’s going on in their lives because that’s a part of my best friend’s life, it makes no sense for me to just ignore, their children’s existence. But I will say that I remember a lot of times where I hung up the phone thinking, I can’t believe they didn’t ask me about what I was doing.

Nina: they were engrossed in the kids

Dani: Well, because I’m not going through the high school drama with your kids because I’m not going through the terrible two, whatever, kids and parents go through. but I have other things going on. There’s just this assumption that those that have kids are way busier [00:10:00] than those of us doing whatever else that we do.

Nina: Let’s talk about more of those challenges. That’s what I get into, because it wasn’t all, it’s like almost like we skipped over to where there were no issues there. There, I’m sure well, I know we, we wrote about some, you were in your twenties. We’ll go back like in time. I think doing it chronologically is helpful and people started getting married and having kids. And you got married too

Dani: Yes, and then I got divorced I remembered that I never wanted to get married.

Nina: You’re like, wait a second. How did that happen?

Dani: I remember thinking this, so whoa, shame on me. But yeah, so I got out of it.

Nina: and then how long were you married for?

Dani: I was married for six years. We were together for nine.

Nina: in that time people, that when the, when your friends were starting to have kids. Yeah. And so then what were some of the speed bumps other people could learn from who are in this situation? like I said, you got to the other side of it, but not immediately.

It wasn’t all easy. Tell me how you manage these friendships and how you’re still friends.

Dani: I mean, I can be the queen of resentment and grudge holding. I’ve got a special [00:11:00] shelf for both of those things in my closet. oh, I was so resentful. There’s the intellectual side where you know, people, they have their kids and you, know what’s happening over there.

But on the flip side is where did you go? we were doing this and that, and we were, doing this life thing together and then all of a sudden this happens. And I’m not a part of that. I mean, even though I was invited to events and and whatnot, I’m not a part of that world. I can’t speak to it. I can’t relate to it. I don’t want to relate to it. I don’t want to speak to it. the challenge of what do we talk about the challenge of, so it’s going to be me that has to come to you ‘ cause you can’t leave the house. the resentment, that I am being taken advantage of, that I’m being taken for granted.

Oh, Dani will always be there. Now whether this was going on in their minds, no idea, but I was creating a whole story in my head about, [00:12:00] oh, they probably think I’m always available. And I have nothing but free time. I’m, dancing around the house naked because I don’t have kids.

It’s like all of these fallacies that people make up about women who don’t have kids. I had to work through all of that, and what was always in the back of my mind was, but you really, really love this person. you have so much fun together when it’s just the two of you or there’s so much history there.

Are you going to let this overshadow that? it was a duality. I mean, I did have to live for a long time with resenting these people in very different ways. Then also going, I’m not going to throw that away. I need them. Because we were so young when we became friends, they were so ingrained in my DNA in my bones that, I couldn’t imagine.

I didn’t want to be without them. I had the [00:13:00] fun and the laughs I’m going to go out on a limb and say, you don’t necessarily always get when you get older.

So, I waited it out basically. I mean, like the leave, the kids had to leave sometime, right? But what was funny was as soon as the kids got to, you could talk to them like a person age, things changed. I was able to relate to them as me, not a mom, not necessarily a friend either, but I don’t know. The funny aunt or

Nina: I was going to say, kind of like an aunt. It’s not for there to be an aunt type of figure who’s not actually related

Dani: That’s how some of my friends refer to me, to their kids which is lovely. once that started happening, I think I was able to, tamp down the resentment and those challenges. If I’m honest, it didn’t completely go away. I mean, even into my thirties and kind of in my forties too, because they were tethered [00:14:00] to the home life and their kids, and I wasn’t, I have freedom. I just wanted them to be where I was.

Nina: One thing you wrote in your email to me, which I really appreciated, was ’cause it’s six different women, right? Or five other

Dani: Five. of you.

Nina: Yeah. And you basically said it wasn’t all the same with each person you had to. In five different ways, ’cause there are five different individuals, keep those friendships going. Despite the time issues and and resentment that might have been growing. Did any of those five ways include a direct conversation about, we’ve made different choices and this is what it looks like.

Dani: It wasn’t that articulate and, and not that

Nina: That sounds so nice. Right. It’s such a

Dani: it sounds lovely. Oh my God. This conversation took place in, I think my bathroom when I was living in Los Angeles, and I just said to one of my friends, I said. You can’t keep treating me like this. I said it is a two-way street. I know you’ve got all of this stuff going on, as do [00:15:00] i I was going through a divorce and who’s taking the dog?

I mean, really, you know, really legitimate questions. no, and I said I’m not going to just hang around and wait for you and not being treated like I think I should be treated. You need to show up. And the thing is, people think that showing up means coming over to the house and bringing food or going on a trip, whatever.

I’m talking, give me five minutes on the phone just to tell me you’re thinking about me. how are you doing? Things are crazy. Let’s catch up in a week. I was not in any way, shape or form looking for a day to day. I knew the reality of it, but I needed to know you were thinking about me, I’m in your thoughts.

How’s Dani doing? it couldn’t just keep coming from me picking up the phone and asking. So that was a tough one. But you know what? She got it. She said, you’re right. I apologize. I feel the [00:16:00] same way about this friendship that you do. ’cause I just laid it on the line and go, I will not lose you. I cannot lose you.

She said the same thing and there were tears. It was the best thing that could have happened. But the thing that’s so funny is, people can’t read your mind. You’ve got to speak up. here’s my, big takeaway from this, if they are true friends. You can say anything to them.

You can say it in any form. it doesn’t have to be necessarily articulate. It could be fragmented, But if they are your true friend, they will hear it and they’ll take it in. They may not like it and they may not have a response in the moment, but you’ve planted a seed.

And if they’re the kind of person that’s like, I can’t talk to you, and then you need to go away for a while and think about it, they will come back because, they’ll know the value of the friendship of you and the value of the friendship. And if they don’t, well that speaks volumes too, doesn’t it?

Nina: Yes, Dani, this is such healthy stuff because people are so afraid of [00:17:00] conflict, and I’m talking like the littlest, tiniest saying to a friend is actually a gift that you’re giving to a friend. To say something like, I need you to show up. Because I want to be friends with you still, if you kind of said that directly, even if you don’t say that second part, it’s implied.

You wouldn’t bother even bringing something up to a person that you don’t care about having a future with and people really misunderstand that. They’re scared to say the truth or say how they’re feeling, that they’re going to scare someone away. And then it does just breed resentment over time and then it comes out in some sideways and you, you do damage the friendship if you don’t just

Dani: I’ve definitely been the person that doesn’t say anything and then, oh, that resentment builds and it gets bigger in my closet and it takes over and it’s just how do you not know how I’m feeling?

cause people need to be told, you just can’t expect somebody to know what’s going on in your mind. And I am so lucky my friends are the kind of friends that you just say it.

and sometimes I preface it with, I really don’t even know how to say [00:18:00] this. So I’m, I’m, I need you to just sit express your needs. I just need you to just sit there. Let me just spew, let me just say what I’m going to say and then, you know, we can talk about it. But this best friend that I’m talking about, she knows how hard it is for me to express myself.

She just does. So she just sits there and she’s like, Nope, go ahead. I’m right here. say what you need to say. and I’ve told her in the past I want our friendship to be X, Y, and z. I want the kind of friendship where I can say ugly things, nasty things, maybe ‘ cause you know, you’re in the heat of the moment and you’re not really thinking and you’re not going anywhere.

Nina: And she was okay with that ’cause not she’s like.

Dani: Absolutely, but again, I know this about her, I know this

about You us, together. I just needed to say, and she’s like, yeah, me too. I got it. But this has all been work of decades. telling your friend she’s selfish and you know, all [00:19:00] these not great things. And she goes, yeah, you know, I’m, I am. And that’s everything. taking ownership is everything. So many people think they’re so self-aware, but when push comes to shove, the defensiveness is what you get. But it’s been work. Anything worth anything is work .

Nina: I appreciate how honest you’re being. I mean, you told me it was a lonely time and that’s very honest. Can you say more about that?

Dani: Well, it was a lonely time because you are losing something, You’re losing a little bit of what we had. Now, even though they’re turning into something else, it’s a something else that I can’t be a part of in that real deep way. And then it was also lonely because I started thinking, not for very long, should I have had kids wait a minute, what am I missing out on here?

So that was kind of a lonely moment of did I do this all wrong? maybe they’re right, you [00:20:00] know, and those questions, which didn’t last long,

Nina: I think it’s so normal, no matter the topic, it could be especially career stuff. oh, should I have taken this road? Should I put all those years into this thing? Oh my gosh, now I’m, you know, almost 50 and I could’ve started X, Y, Z and didn’t. Don’t you think? Yeah, that’s common to the what if would’ve coulda, shoulda.

Dani: What it could have should have the what ifs? All of it. I mean, honestly, even today, I now live down the road from my best friend. She has a sophomore in college and a senior at home. when she tells me that she’s gotta do this thing for her son and college, or they’re going out with another couple and whatever, it still gives me a, a thing because I don’t have a family. and really only till recently have I really thought about it in those terms or in that way. Maybe it’s the age, I don’t know, but I’m a little envious of what [00:21:00] she has. that’s not to say that, I don’t regret my choices at all. For those of us who have chosen not to have kids we can hold both of those things.

Nope, that wasn’t for me. And also, I wonder what that would’ve been like. We’re so complicated and we’re complex human beings. We can, carry all of these, contradictory emotions and feelings that might not necessarily fit together.

That’s exactly true. And, and so, you know, honest, I keep saying to you ’cause I don’t often talk to someone who’s so forthright. I, and I like that a lot. yes, holding that at the same time, like feeling that bit of envy, but it doesn’t mean that you ever regret.

And they are true. this is to your point about the loneliness. So it’s like, oh, you know, I was thinking like she. she’s married and she has the kids. And of course you can be lonely in a crowded room, but there’s some, I don’t know, there’s some tangible thing there that she knows her husband is [00:22:00] always there. She knows, her son’s always, is coming home at three. And so she’s got that, I think there’s something nice about that and I would want something equivalent to that. Not necessarily, a kid.

So yeah. So a lot of lonely times knowing that my friends were doing their thing with their kids and going here and going there, and they’ve built these other communities without me.

Nina: as we wrap up, is there anything else, uh, you feel we didn’t cover that you think would help listeners who have chosen to be child-free, be most successful in their friendships?

Dani: I think communication, your friends who have kids they don’t know what you’re going through. Just like, you don’t know what it’s like to raise a child, in a practical way they don’t know how it is for you. And I wish I told them a little bit earlier on in the process.

Like, this is really hard for me. This is really [00:23:00] challenging to sit here and x, y whatever your, issue is. it’s lonely, it’s challenging. I feel taken advantage of. I feel like you’re taking me for granted. I’ve got a life, I’ve got other things to do. and one of the things, one of the, the husbands of one of, my friends would make these comments like

I am completely inept at changing a diaper or babysitting or whatever because I don’t have kids. I’m not an idiot. you know, I can do it all, and I think we just need to get honest about the life that a woman that’s child free lives and parents live and Just talk about it. It’s not a big deal. It’s really not a big deal. I would just say have these talks, have them early if you can, but it’s never too late. And truly, if they are your friend, they’re going to hang out. I mean, it has to be a worthwhile, it just has to feel like it’s worthwhile to you. Like you [00:24:00] can’t lose these people.

Let’s all negotiate here and let’s all compromise. That was the other thing, like not a lot of compromising in the beginning. I had to do all the compromising,

Nina: you would show up. It’s like they had to be on their schedule, their location.

Dani: obviously, canceling plans. Oh, it’s okay. I didn’t want to go out anyway. You know, I mean, plan’s canceled. I’m dressed ready to go. It’s just telling them how you’re feeling. Just being honest.

Nina: Naming the uncomfortable thing. I mean, I think very good advice and sooner. I love how you said, sooner than later, but it’s never too late. That’s a great message.

Dani: It’s never too late. You care about these people. If I didn’t care. I wouldn’t have thought so much about it. It wouldn’t have made me cry at times. It wouldn’t have made me angry at times. It’s the relationships that matter to you and that you care about is why you are getting so emotional about them.

I have friends that have just disappeared into the background and I don’t really care. not [00:25:00] in a mean way, and they have kids and we just parted and okay, bye-bye. so there are those, and I totally get those, but it’s the core ones or it’s the ones, you gotta weigh it out,

Nina: That’s right. you can’t tell every single person that you’re upset with them. The people that it’s really worth it. Okay. Final question. That was going to be my final. I had one more. you feel that, these friends you’ve really invested in have been supportive of your writing career? Are these the people that show up to book events and do what you would’ve hoped?

Dani: This book was published only, August 12th, so I’m kind of in the middle of it and I’m just kind of gearing up. I would say for the most part, yes,

Nina: that’s pretty ’cause a lot of writers, I just did an episode a few episodes ago it’s not the case always.

Dani: Oh, I’ll find fault with, with several of them. Oh, don’t get me wrong. I mean, but there are a couple that really have showed up beyond, those are the ones that I’m like, I’m not losing you. [00:26:00] They’re the same friends that are like, we’re going to have to work this out because you’re staying in my life, whether, you know, we like it or not.

And then there’s a few where it’s like, are you going to let me know you read the book? but even with that, you have to sit back and say. You know, one thing I learned many years ago is you never know what’s going on in another person’s life. So if you can, you put the emotion aside and you go to that place of, I don’t know what’s going on in her life, clearly something, and I’ve reached out and I didn’t get anything back.

And that just has to be okay. It doesn’t have to feel good, but you can’t run after people necessarily either. Maybe she’s telling me something. I try to be compassionate and you can’t take any of it personally, really. I mean, especially with the writing stuff, there’s so much going on in the world. It’s like, what do you mean you didn’t read my book?

Nina: Yeah. much, so much content. See, oh, I had to learn a long time ago to let go of that as well.

Dani: do your thing because you want to do [00:27:00] it. Do your thing because you have to do it because you’re meant to do it, because you feel passionately about doing it. If you are doing it to get results, oh, you’re going to be so disappointed. that’s what my book is all about.

but really, I mean, you can’t go into any artistic endeavor, I feel, thinking that, you’re going to get awards and, and even recognition and you do it because you have to do it. ’cause there’s nothing else for me. There’s nothing else I’m good at. And I don’t even know if I’m good at that, I’ve tried everything so I, I just keep trying.

Nina: I love it. Dani, thank you so much for being my guest. I’m going to have your book and all the ways people can find you in the show notes,

Dani: Thank you.

Nina: I end every episode by saying, I believe you’ll agree, when our friendships are going well, we are happier all around. So come back next week for another episode.

Listeners, thank you again for being here. I just want to remind you that if you found this episode helpful or any episode at all, it is so helpful [00:28:00] to me if you would leave a review on Apple, leave some stars on Spotify and recommend an episode to a friend.

If there’s one you particularly enjoyed, send it to a friend in a text or share it on social media. That is something that helps spread the word about the podcast. I believe in the work that I am doing here. I think it is helping people with their friendships, the more people it reaches, the better as far as I’m concerned.

That’s all from me. Thanks for considering that and have a wonderful week. Bye.