Nina: Welcome to Dear Nina: Conversations about Friendship. I am your host, Nina Badzin. Been writing about friendship for well over a decade. and podcasting about it for almost exactly five years.

I have talked about college admissions before, but there are always new avenues to explore. Today I have an amazing guest. I am speaking to Alexis White, who is an internationally recognized admissions counselor. She is the founder of Alexis College Xpert and owner of the A-List Tutoring Services in Los Angeles. You may know her on Instagram There’s not an E for the college and expert, so it’s @college and then X-P-E-R-T.

She is so fun to watch and to learn from on TikTok and Instagram, and she just has so many wonderful resources. I personally have learned a lot from her,

I am right in the thick of it myself. I’ve been through it twice, so I’m not a newbie, but things [00:01:00] change constantly in the college admissions stuff.

Even within my own household with four kids who are each a few years apart, I’ve seen differences every year. And I’m grateful to Alexis, who has taught me a lot, not personally one-to-one, but just through her videos.

What I really respect about Alexis’s work is that she helps students find colleges where they will thrive academically, of course, but also socially, and she has financially in the mix. We don’t talk that much about the finances in this episode because there are so many varying factors there, and it just felt too big of a topic to tackle, and really beyond the scope of this episode and of my podcast.

What attracts me to Alexis’s work in particular is her business model focuses on what she calls fit over flex.

There’s so much pressure on some kids. They put it on themselves, or they might be getting it from their parents. They might be getting it from social media.

They might even be getting it from their individual college counselors if they have one. And that is to go to the, quote, unquote, if you are watching on YouTube, you can see my [00:02:00] actual quoting hands, “the best school.” what does the best mean? This is something Alexis really works on with her clients, which is the best might not mean the highest ranked.

we really get into this in the episode, what does the best mean for you? And by the way, you still might not even get into the school that you think may be the right fit for you, but that’s why you need more than one choice, obviously. You need to have more than one choice. And Alexis has so many great episodes on her own podcast, which I recommend if you are in this college process.

It’s called Admit It with Alexis White. I will put in some episodes that I also think would be pertinent to listeners of this show looking at the social piece.

And I don’t just mean are you having fun, I mean how are you feeling a sense of belonging? When you’re in the college admissions process, when you are a junior or a senior in high school, are you having that as part of the mix?

Is this a place I could belong? There’s nobody quite like Alexis White. You will really enjoy her [00:03:00] candor. and I was thrilled that she brought it to the show.

Alexis, welcome to Dear Nina finally.

I’m so excited.

Alexis: Thank you so much for having me after all, scheduling, twists and turns, all the things, we’re here

Nina: You are a celeb in my world. I have friends who were more excited that I was having you on than some other celebs. But

. I wanna tell you that I hear from a lot of listeners who have somewhat bad feelings of their college years, and then they’re worried about their kids’ college years. So they have a little bit of bitterness of the days that they were at a school that maybe they were pushed to go to for reasons of prestige or any other reason you might choose a school, which we’ll get into, and maybe it wasn’t the right fit.

they also thought it would be the right fit maybe for other reasons, and it turned out it wasn’t. when we say fit on this show, we’re really talking socially for the most part, your, business goes into all kinds of things. And I love, that your company motto basically is fit over flex.

I mean, that speaks to me so highly. So I just wanna throw it to you first [00:04:00] and ask, for people who are listening who have ninth graders, 10th graders, 11th graders, ‘ seniors, where to start with this fit conversation?

Alexis: Well, I always start… I have my five tenets, my five pillars of college selection, and I think that the first two are really integral in picking the right place. Size and location. those are the first two, which seems sort of, I think, to a lot of people, arbitrary. Kind of like some people will go, “Well, if you get into the…

If you get into, you know, blah blah school, you’re going.” usually that has to do with some, you know, insert prestigious name here, right? So let’s say, a kid really wants to go to, a big rah-rah, fun, football, fraternity, sorority vibe. They want Ohio State, that’s their first choice, but they end up getting into, Carnegie Mellon.

Carnegie Mellon’s, higher ranked than Ohio State, It’s a, quote-unquote, better school academically, allegedly. Who knows what that even means, and that’s a whole other podcast. Or they get into, I don’t know, Yale, I mean, just whatever, Emory, and the parents will go, [00:05:00] “You know what?

This is where you’re going. You’re not going to Ohio State.” And the kid, if we haven’t pre… If, if one has not, I won’t say we, one has not really pre-selected size and location. Size, number one. Okay, so what does size mean? Size means lots of things. Are you small liberal arts? Are you midsize rah-rah?

are you a Tulane, like a 7,500-ish kids with a football stadium on campus and that energy, or a Syracuse kind of thing, which is not super giant, or are you Ohio State, or are you Middlebury, when I talk about fit over flex, size means a lot. What type of learner is your child?

When we’re talking about friendships, There are kids who desire tons of diversity, not just in ethnic background and socioeconomic background, but just in, thought process and style, and they need lots of different types of energy, and they will go out and find it.

we know those kids. You may even have those kids. You’ve got four kids, right?

Nina: Mm-hmm. Yeah

Alexis: I [00:06:00] have one kid who’d be amazing at any public school. I could just, like, drop him off and be like, “Bye.” 1,000 kids in a grade. I’ve got one kid who needs no more than 80 kids in a grade, private, small.

I know everybody. I know the things. I know what’s expected of me. It’s all in front of my face. So are you gonna drop the kid who needs the, all-in-front-of-my-face, core group, tight stuff at Ohio State with 55,000 undergraduates, 150,000 people on campus in a day? So size is so important.

Location. I believe very strongly in seasonal affective disorder. I’m saying this as a born and raised Angeleno. I get a decent percentage of students who come back to me or come to me I won’t say come back because truly, if they’ve worked with us, I would say 94% of the time they’re at the right place, what type of weather do you want? Do you wanna go to the beach with your friends all year round? I mean, like, back to friendship and, activities. Do you wanna be [00:07:00] outside? Do you wanna be hiking? Do you wanna be skiing? These are all things presumably you’d be doing bonding with other people, and engaging with other people, and building and nurturing.

Maybe you go to Boulder or Utah and you kinda got your ski buddies, people that you, you dive into a car and you go snowboarding for the afternoon between classes. And then you’ve got your study buddies, and then you’ve got your party buddies, and then you’ve got your people you go to the gym with, Do you want snow? Do you want sun? Do you want both? Do you not mind being at a Syracuse where you’re basically kinda underground for five months? That’s also another bonding experience. That’s like a trauma bonding thing.

Nina: I just laugh because I live in Minnesota, and it’s that’s my life.

Alexis: Totally. A lot of kids from California

will say I love that about the winter. I love that we’re all stuck with each other.” And that’s part of the cozy friendship-building vibe. Whereas at, at UCLA where I went, everybody is all over the place all the time.

Outside, we’re here, there, we’re driving to the beach, [00:08:00] everybody is lounging in their bathing suits, no joke, on the quad outside Powell Library. it’s a free-for-all 24/7 of fun times. it doesn’t have that cozy camp feeling that people might be wanting. So in terms of finding the fit, those are my two main factors, I think that when people ignore those factors, then they end up at places where they have trouble connecting, making friends, finding their people.

and then there are a lots of other factors that have to do with, location too. Are you somebody who needs New York at your doorstep? open your dorm door and you’re with the universe. Do you need chill quad time, reading under a tree with some friends? do you want, you know, yeah, that big city energy where you guys are maybe hitting the clubs and you’re going out?

I mean, that’s a whole other lifestyle. that’s your Miami, your New York, your Boston

Nina: You know what this piece of the conversation reminds me of? a former guest of mine, fabulous author who I love, Gretchen Rubin, has a thing she talks about a lot in [00:09:00] her books on happiness and habits, and it’s know yourself but push yourself. I love this concept because it’s like you kinda need both.

You know, the know yourself, you have to know yourself as a 11th grader, as an early 12th grader, like early senior year. think about the self-awareness that you have to have about your interests and your habits and what makes you happy to know I wanna go to the beach, even something as basic as that, or I wanna try skiing.

Maybe you live in a place that never has snow, you wanna push yourself. So it’s like the know yourself but push yourself. For some pe- right? Some people know that they, they will, hate being cold and, like you’re saying, some people might really love seasons or they don’t know if they will, but they’re willing to push

themselves.

But you

Alexis: know themselves.

well enough to know that that’s what they want.

Nina: Yeah.

Alexis: I have kids who go, ” I know I want something totally different than what I’ve grown up with.”

Nina: That’s right. But if we never push ourselves a little, right, it’s like we would be stuck with, everything we said we were ever interested as a ninth grader. It’s really both. it’s hard. You gotta [00:10:00] balance these two things, the know yourself and the push yourself.

You do not wanna put yourself in a situation where you’ve never succeeded thus far. I had a really excellent, in hindsight, I didn’t know it at the time, I had an excellent college counselor when I was in high school, and she really helped me see how important it was to see a big school and see, like, a mid-sized school.

And so I went to visit a big school, and I just knew immediately it just wasn’t for me. It was Illinois. I went- I grew up in Chicago. I went to visit Illinois, and I just didn’t like… It’s big. It was so big. And then I visited a mid-sized school, which was Wash U, and I applied early, and I was done. And the very thing that some people maybe wouldn’t have liked about the school I loved is, you know, maybe the reputation of it’s a little more serious, it’s not as much of a party school.

I was like, “Sign me up.” I was so sick of having to pretend that, like, I wanted to go to parties. I was like, “Please send me to a place where other people…” There’s, like, a self-selection there so I want you to get to the visits. Unless… And I didn’t wanna fast-forward. We did two of your pillars.

do we wanna finish those

Alexis: I’ll, finish. So it’s, size, location, academic [00:11:00] offerings, philosophy, and vibe. if academic offerings, and I think that obviously if your plan is to, study psychology, and you are really passionate about that, And there are some schools on your list that have really cool, you know, four plus one programs, or, you wanna become a physician and you’re interested in a BS/MD program, or you have no idea what

you

Nina: I was, I wondered about that.

Alexis: and you wanna have all the things. you want a core curriculum, you wanna try everything, you wanna have a place that has it all.

I have a lot of this, you think you know what you want

But maybe you might change your mind and you wanna have other options. that’s academic offerings. Now, from the most specific to the least specific, if you wanna go into musical theater, and you are auditioning, and you are you’re not gonna apply to a program that doesn’t have a musical theater program.

maybe you wanna be a musical theater major with academic options if you get bored or change your mind. So maybe we’re not gonna go to Berklee School of Music, but maybe we will go [00:12:00] to Frost School of Music at University of Miami, or Thornton at USC, or someplace where you could back into something more academic if you decided this wasn’t for you.

and then that, again, also speaks to the community that you build, and the people you surround yourself with, and building friendships, and creating, that environment for you. And I think what’s interesting about college and friendship, you do have different pockets.

Like we were just talking about the ski people, the this people, the that people. it’s more like real life,

where you’re not stuck. In high school, you go to school every day with all the same people. You see them in your classes, whatever. College, you have people and this sounds sort of maybe superficial or strange, but that fit different pieces of your life, just like you do in adulthood.

You have your parenting people, your school friends, your, the people… Your high school friends that carried over into real li- you know, you have all the kind of different things. The work friends, the work wife, the work husband, the this, the that, like, couple friends, divorcee friends.

So size, location, academic offerings, philosophy, and vibe. Okay, so [00:13:00] philosophy would be, if you’re the kind of student who needs, an open curriculum or you want something that’s rooted in religion, or you want something that, has a really strong community service base.

I mean, when you look for schools on their websites, you can read their mission statements, and a lot of them are very, very much about serving the public of their state. a lot of them are about being, very career-focused and less about service. there are a lot of different approaches.

and then the last one, vibe. Well, you can really only know the vibe if you go visit

Nina: so would you feel like talking to people who go there, you just … I guess you’re only gonna get that one person’s opinion

Alexis: when you visit a campus and you walk around, and let’s say you give yourself a day, You get there, you got a morning tour. And I always tell people, when you’re gonna go visit a school, you really wanna, not just hang out on campus, but hang out around campus. Grab lunch, get a coffee, talk to people.

Do kids seem happy? Now, I’m not saying, like, this [00:14:00] sliver of a day is representative of an entire thing, but truly, a campus is its own micro environment, its own mini… being in a Sims reality, right? Like, college campus is not real life really. Does everybody seem, really serious?

Do they seem half serious, half fun? Do they seem really, nervous? people will come back to me and go, ” Everyone on campus seemed really happy.” And I’ll always go, “Okay, well, was it, the end of finals? Is it the beginning of this thing? Are they heading on vacation? What is it? Was it a Thursday, ’cause nobody goes to class on Friday and they’re all going out that night?”

You know,

that type of thing. everyone’s really serious. Okay, well, is it finals? But I think you get that energy on a campus, and it’s either… is it kind of dead and boring? And again, you want to ask the

question, “Well, am I here in June or am I here in October?” If you’re visiting a campus in October and it’s boring, that’s not a good sign.

presumably the weather is good wherever you are,

pretty much, even in Minneapolis,

Nina: That’s right.

Alexis: [00:15:00] you’re in the height of sports season, all the good… Halloween’s coming up, like, all the good fun energy, and if you’re walking around going, “What’s going on with these people?”

Not a good sign. The other thing too is architecture, I think is interesting. So some kids are very affected by the visual aspects of a school. And maybe you’re thinking about this with your own kids being of college age. they imagine a Hogwarts looking type of situation. They want brick buildings, and they want it to be, like, old.

When people go visit U Miami, sometimes they come back and go, “That’s not a college. That’s like a hotel.” Or they go and go, “Oh my gosh, I loved it. It was so different.” aesthetics can also play into that too

Nina: You know, I was thinking about if you talk to current students as part of your college search, which you could do on campus or just when you’re home and, you know, somebody always says, “Oh, I know someone who goes,” and then you talk to them. I wonder how honest people are because I think there’s a human nature aspect of not wanting to feel like you made the wrong choice

Alexis: Oh my God, , that’s the panic all the time

Nina: you know, you’re spending all this money, you’ve spent all this time, you did all this [00:16:00] work to find the right place, and then, maybe you didn’t get in to the place you really wanted to go, and so you’re making it work, which by the way I’m sure you would advocate this, I do. You can really make anything work.

It doesn’t mean you shouldn’t transfer if it’s really an issue, but, I mean, I definitely tell my kids, like, “We are not having our hearts set on any one place.” I heard you talk about in an episode recently, and I thought it was so… I mean, I’ve seen it in a bit, I’ve now been through two college admission seasons with my own children, and I have a lot of friends going through it.

You talked about how back when we were all applying and, and then when our parents were applying, and especially if you had the certain stats, it was a little bit more of a, “Okay, this is where you kind of, quote-unquote, ‘deserve’ to get in.” You have these stats. And now it’s just not like that. And I think that’s an important piece to talk about here is a college also is looking for a fit. Our kids are looking for a fit, and then the school itself is looking for a fit, and why do you feel that’s gotten more complicated despite what your stats are?

Alexis: Well, there are more applicants, too many applicants. So we’re now dealing with admissions offices that I think are [00:17:00] understaffed. other way to look at it too is that with social media, with all of the attention on admissions and the access that we all have to what makes a great applicant, this is my work, so I know. Five ways you can maximize your whatever. You know, all the clickbaity stuff. You’re getting kids who really know how to, market themselves.

Nina: they’re savvy

Alexis: I’m not saying it’s disingenuous. These are kids who would otherwise may have been flat on an application, but they realize, they’re like, “Oh, I could probably maximize this club that I’m doing by X, Y, Z, A, B, C.”

And then maybe, you know, if you’re social media savvy, you p- pop that in or… So then there’s just all these kids that are, really qualified. There’s also the issue of, and I, you know this having had middle schoolers. Were your kids in middle school during COVID? Yeah, they were, right?

Nina: had some in there. Yep

Alexis: I think COVID also inflated GPAs. It also got rid of test scores. It made things really confusing. So the test [00:18:00] optional piece of it too, made it so that if you were gonna submit test scores, they had to be really, really good. then all of a sudden anybody who was doing that, now all the applicants are amazing.

Everybody has a 1530. Everyone has a 1550. Everyone has a 1480. Even if you have 70% or 60% of students submitting scores to a test optional institution, they’re gonna be submitting good scores.

Nina: It’s so intimidating. we just went on a bunch of tours ourselves during junior year of my daughter’s high school the things they’re telling us at these schools the people submitting the scores, how can the average be a 35 or something?

Like, it just boggles, and then it makes you ask, can you send in a 30? Can you send in a 31? I- isn’t that a good score?

Alexis: I think you send in a score that will elevate your application. you know what? Nina, you’ve just inspired a post

‘Cause I think I’m, changing my philosophy, and every year I feel differently about this depending on the

Nina: It seems like more and more schools are now going back to tests. They wanna see… I saw the California schools are [00:19:00] trying to bring this back, right?

Alexis: That’s a whole other thing,

What they’re seeing is it’s, like, 600 STEM professors, I have a post about it too, 600 STEM professors across the UC system have filed a motion, a petition, whatever you wanna call it, to bring back testing because what they’re seeing is that kids have cheated all the way through their math classes.

they use AI to get past all the things. and essentially, even if, let’s say you took AP Calc AB senior year. maybe you didn’t take the AP. Maybe you took the AP, AP Calc AB AP in junior year and you got a three, and then you just didn’t send the score.

Whatever. Basically, they’re saying these kids can’t do algebra. Help.

And so now they’re finding in the STEM courses that they’re having to do a lot of remediation, but back to your original question, which I never really answered, which was how do you know whether to submit the score?

let’s say you are at the average GPA for the school. So let’s say the school you’re applying to publishes that they [00:20:00] have an average GPA of, for applicants, freshman applicants of last year was 3.7, and let’s say you have a or a 3.59, 58,

you’re just at the average, maybe a tick below. And then they publish their ACT score, average ACT is anywhere from a, 31 to a 33

you have a 31. No, it’s not a 33, but it’s definitely going to leverage that GPA that you have. that weird borderline kind of thing. if you’re much lower, And a lot of times we get a lower GP because we bomb a class or

Nina: Or you took harder classes, you actually challenged yourself,

Alexis: Right. There’s like a million different things, or you were doing great up until the final. And you’re thinking to yourself, “This is really not a reflection of who I am as a student.”

But I think that the borderline ones, that 30, 31, 32, if it’s commensurate with your GPA, I think a 30, if you have a 3.6 GPA and you get a 30 on the ACT, that makes a lot of sense to me. Send that. Even if it’s below their published [00:21:00] average.

Because I think for me, as an admissions person, I’m gonna go, “Well, this corroborates evidence that under duress you take a test, and you did pretty darn well.”

Nina: One thing we didn’t talk about, which is a huge piece of the social piece, is the Greek life or not Greek life, which, you know, even if you go to a big school, you don’t have to do the Greek life.

But one thing I would love to hear from you, what you hear from your own students, your own clients, especially ones who’ve already gone, you may think you want Greek life, and you may not get a bid. And this is for guys and girls. I am seeing this more and more. It’s like the competition, there’s, the getting into the school, but then there’s all the stuff within the school once you get there, the finance clubs and the consulting clubs and the fraternities and the sororities.

There’s no guarantee that you’re getting in, so you gotta like other things about the school,

Alexis: That is a very good point. What else is there for me? Yeah, you may not get what you

want.

Nina: People aren’t. Alexis, people are not getting the, boys and girls

Alexis: to Greek life or not to Greek life, either way, whatever side you’re on, [00:22:00] whatever you think you might want, when you’re looking at a school, you wanna make sure that there are a lot of other options for you that resonate with you as far as…

‘Cause what are we doing with Greek life? We’re building community. We can talk about parties, and we can talk about all that stuff, but at the end of the day, you’re finding your people. You’re maybe even creating a home or finding it literally.

if that doesn’t happen or the house that you want doesn’t happen, just like colleges, right?

what are the backups? What will you be okay with? you then decide that you w- don’t want Greek life or it’s not gonna happen for you, business fraternities and, different clubs, I mean, there’s entrepreneurship clubs and different service organizations religious organizations.

There are so many things, especially on a big campus. That’s another thing when you’re talking about big and small. If you’re the kind of person who’s relying very, very heavily on Greek life to be your jam, and you’re like, “I’m gonna be a Kappa ’cause my mom was a Kappa,” or, “I’m gonna be a this because my dad was a that,” and it doesn’t happen, and you don’t make it to your 17th choice.

At a big school, you will have a [00:23:00] lot of options of other things to do. However, they’re very competitive.

Nina: Yes

Alexis: So when you look at smaller schools, an Elon, for example, which has so many opportunities for students, but they’re less competitive. And Elon has, I think, 50% Greek life. It’s a really strong aspect of their community.

If that’s not what you’re gonna opt in for or doesn’t work out the way you want to, do you wanna be, you know, a correspondent on the news channel? Do you wanna have your own podcast? Do you want to, be a manager of a sports team? D- find out how open and what the possibilities are, and that’s also…

Your buddy Gretchen’s getting a lot of

plugs here.

Nina: Yeah, scratch it.

Alexis: Know yourself, push yourself. So in knowing yourself, will you push yourself?

Nina: That’s a good point

Alexis: When I went to visit Michigan I was not shocked, but the competitiveness was really palpable as far as among students for every club. So I have one student who’s a, a communications major and one student who’s at, Ross. Former [00:24:00] students. one, is a transfer and she is just, the most, like she has her eye on the prize.

She goes for it. She wanted Michigan. Hard to get in as a transfer from community college in California. Boom, she got in. Everything, she just sets her sights and she works her butt off Laser focus. Same thing with the other one. Laser focus. And then when I start looking at everybody, I’m like, “Oh my God, you’re all like this.

You’re all like this.” They are hardcore there. the business clubs, the PR clubs, the this society, the that thing, they are not messing around. So if you are somebody who’s not gonna push yourself, or you find yourself getting intimidated in atmospheres like that, watch out. do your research.

Ask people. And people will be very honest about like, “Oh my gosh, it was so hard to get in. I had three rounds of interviews. I have to say, as outgoing as I am- I’m not competitive like that. I would not have

survived

Nina: maybe for a lot of people getting through the high school piece of this and the college admissions piece of this, they don’t want to have to keep doing that. It’s like again and

Alexis: tired already. if you’re [00:25:00] a creative person, like for me, coming from a theater background in high school, I wasn’t a theater major at UCLA, but I wanted to still do theater. I knew that that was gonna be a community for me. the push myself aspect of this was that I knew I could find, and I did ask around about, underground theater things and student-led groups.

I joined every one I could possibly find. that satiated that side of me, and I felt really like, okay, I have my people in that world, right? I have my friends that are in sororities I went to date parties. I I got on the bus. I went to the th- people were like, “Are you a Theta?”

I’m like, “No, but I was invited.” They’re like, “Great. Honorary Theta.” that’s what I became.

Nina: So you weren’t in a sorority.

Alexis: So I rushed three times. I dropped out every time

Nina: I love that you did what you wanted and you didn’t feel pressured

Alexis: part of it was I went to an all-girls high school, which was very small, and I had a phenomenal experience there. I also come from a family that is not, a, doesn’t know anything about Greek life. Like, my dad’s an artist, my mom’s an educa- like, they were not coming from traditional [00:26:00] schools, schooling backgrounds.

what I remember on my, during orientation, we were walking down Hilgard Avenue. I was with my, like… Oh, speaking of friends, my orientation friends. You also have orientation friends, people that you meet up with during orientation, then you kinda

never see them again.

Nina: why is that a thing? It’s so

Alexis: They’re like your best friends for three days, and then you may see them across the quad, three years later, “Hi.”

walking down Hilgard, which is where all the sorority houses are, and I saw all the girls dressed up, walking in a line. I was like, ” What’s that?” I thought it was, some sort of, I don’t know what,

cult

or something. Like, what is that? And they were like, “It’s sorority rush.” And I’m like, “What? What, what’s that?”

I didn’t even know what that was because it hap- at UCLA, it happens two weeks before school even starts.

So the girls get there early. They… I mean, it’s a whole situation. Then I, I soon learned what that was all about, and so then I got on the bandwagon. I think sophomore year I rushed, and I thought, “This is horrible.”

have to pretend to like these people? This seems weird to me.” And then I kinda liked some of them, and then I got bored, and then I just didn’t show up [00:27:00] again. I did it again, did the same thing. And then junior year, Maybe I didn’t drop out. Maybe I just didn’t get, I didn’t get in the house that

I wanted

Nina: No, this is perfect. This is exactly what we’re talking about. it

doesn’t always

work out. It doesn’t

Alexis: I guess I don’t need this.” my closest friends, my roommates, my crew, one of them joined a sorority junior year, and then one of them was in a sorority, By junior year, that’s the other thing to know

Nina: That’s pretty late to be rushing

Alexis: she decided she wanted to be a Pi Phi, whatever, we were all supportive. but if you are in a house, by the end of junior year you’re kinda over it. It’s not like you’re deactivating, but you’re not really I don’t know.

Nina: Yeah, well, people go abroad sometimes. And, and each school is different, so you might think you want Greek life, but there’s fall rush, there’s… You know, I went to a school where they rushed in the spring. I was the president of my sorority sophomore year, but we didn’t have houses.

Alexis: What sorority?

Nina: Phi,

and Wash U’s still this way, you don’t live in sorority houses. making a decision like that isn’t such an all-encompassing decision. First of all, it’s second semester, so you a lot of times have already made a lot of friends, and they may be in that house or [00:28:00] not, doesn’t matter.

We still call it a house, but it’s, like, not a house. It’s not a literal house. It’s meetings and events and stuff. And then, yeah, you’re right by junior year. So I was president sophomore year, the b- junior year second semester and the summer I went abroad to Santiago, and a very, like, unusual place to go and an unusual program, and it It’s like I had to start over again also with figuring out, , who am I? That was a know yourself, push yourself situation. And we are gonna be tagging Gretchen in this, and she better share the episode.

Alexis: Gretchen, I’m gonna be devouring your book

this week

Nina: One other thing I wanna bring up for fit, and it’s, again, to bring up a former guest just ’cause I like to bring all the episodes together.

I’ve had Harlan on, and I know you must know Harlan Cohen, and his big thing about fit is, it’s right in this conversation of things that you can join perhaps without having to have an interview, without having to, like, rush in the sorority sense.

But even in the business clubs, it is super competitive to get in the business clubs. All these things that when you’re in high school you may not realize what it actually takes and all the presentations you have to make, it’s actually quite hard to get into those.

[00:29:00] there are alternatives, but again, you have to be accepted. And so Harlan talks a lot about finding places that you can just show up at, no interview, no process. You just get to be there, and it’s important to, I think, have that

Alexis: Kind of like when we talk about arts-based programs. , What is audition-based and what is not audition-based, can you just show up? that’s something that, how much of a fight do you need to put up for everything all the time?

Nina: after semester

Alexis: And it’s just there are some people who are really hardwired that way, and they, are ready for the presentation, and they’re ready for the this, And some kids are just, like, “I don’t, I don’t wanna have to work to find my friends,” I wanna just, go to the music club, and I wanna pick up the saxophone that I’ve been playing for eight years and not have to audition. I wanna just, play.” Or, “I wanna join…” Or sports are

another thing,

Nina: Yeah. right? we haven’t even talked about sports. Yeah

Alexis: you’re not a D1 athlete, But you’ve been playing soccer your whole life, and it’s [00:30:00] really important to you to remain in that world, ’cause again, that’s another pocket of people, in college. Some kids will say, ” I wanna be on a club team, and I want it to be competitive, and I wanna travel.”

well, that’s, that’s an important aspect of the school that you’re looking at. to Harlan’s point, do you wanna just walk on the IM team and be like, “Hi. Great. Let’s play.” personality’s different. I have a student who plays tennis really competitively, and he wanted to go get a… Santa Clara has a really competitive club tennis team.

they travel all the time. They play against Stanford. They play here. They play there. Berkeley, whatever. That’s what he wanted. He’s like, “I’m not gonna play for their official varsity tennis team, but I really would like to be… and I, I said, “Well, you know, it’s really competitive.”

And he goes, “Great. That’s what I want.”

Nina: Alexis, I am wondering if you have a hard time getting parents to accept all of these things we’re talking about, that what they might want for their kid may actually not be a good match for their kid.

So while their kid’s stats might, as we’ve discussed, there’s no guarantee, might get them into a [00:31:00] Michigan, let’s say. It’s a good example, a Michigan. They may have the ACT, SAT, they may have the GPA, they may have the hard classes, they may have, like, the wonderful well-rounded extracurriculars. Maybe they’re gonna choose the ED option because now that’s an option, and they have a good chance, let’s say.

Although, does anyone have a good chance now? But let’s say they do it. But maybe it’s the parents’ dream for their kid, and you’re getting a sense talking to this kid that they’re not really gonna be up for the business clubs and the presentations and all these things, and they wanna be a business major, and it’s like, are they gonna get the interviews later for a job if they can’t even get in the clubs?

Do you see what I’m saying? Like, maybe you have a better sense. How do you deal with that with the parents in your job? That must be complicated.

Alexis: I’m very direct. Don’t be shocked. but here is one of the things that I’m very strong-minded about, which is learning process. At the end of the day, college is there for lots of things, But you are there to

learn.

Nina: As it turns out.

Yes.

Alexis: theoretically, yes, academics, that’s supposed to be a part of the [00:32:00] experience.

Usually, when I ask the parents, I’ll say, “How do you think, Nina learns best? Is she better in a smaller class? Does she like to have kind of discussion-based whatever? Do you feel like she’d be okay walking into a 500-person lecture?” That type of thing. And usually, they go, “Oh, she’s really li- she thrives in a discussion-based, She’s in a… 30 people is too many for her.” What in the world makes you think that this kid is gonna go onto Michigan’s campus and, come in hot for two years to classes that have 500, 600 kids, 400 kids, Fight that fight. You’ve got the discussion section. You’ve got the lecture. You have to stand in line for the office hours.

And then on top of it, compete for the clubs, compete for this. I’m not saying your kid’s not competitive, but where do they tend to thrive as far as how their brain works, how they retain information, what’s better for them? And usually the parent will go, ” Oh, I never thought about that.”

they’re thinking about the flex, right? They’re

thinking about the prestige. But they don’t really think Maybe a, Marquette is better for my kid.” Because [00:33:00] she’s been going to a Catholic school her whole life, she really does want small, and it’s not a direct admit business program.

And she really does want to stay in the Midwest after she graduates, and she wants to go work in Chicago, and she’s gonna have great opportunities if she goes to Marquette, And she can still do theater, and she can still do dance, and she can still… And everything isn’t audition-based, and everything isn’t cutthroat and crazy.

to answer your question, how I get them to sort of shift their mindset is to go back to what the core is. The core is, you know your kid as a student. Is that gonna work for them? and then a lot of times the kid will go, “I told you, Mom, like I want to have smaller

classes.”

Nina: I was wondering if the kids ever ask you, Can you talk to my parents?”

Alexis: Oh,

all the time

Nina: Okay. Like, that’s how a huge part of your job, like

you’re the kid’s advocate

Alexis: I run interference between parents

and kids

Nina: It’s hard ’cause the parents are paying you,

Alexis: Parents are paying

me. I will say though, it’s almost always, and this is really funny, and I would be the same exact way. I will be the same exact way. I’m the messenger from the parent to the kid.

The kid knows I have their back. They know that I’m [00:34:00] that I’m gonna do right by them.

The parent’s like, ” I’m paying you so that I don’t have to do this

because otherwise our whole family’s gonna fall apart.” So sometimes I have clients who will talk right before every session. We’ll go, “These are the couple things I want you to mention to her.

Don’t be surprised if she bites your head off ’cause she bit my head off. But her grandmother was the first, you know, Kappa Kappa Gamma in the class of whatever, and she wants… And I wanted her to mention this but she refuses and blah blah blah.” And then I gotta go back to the kid and go, ” Quick question, do you have any, any relatives that went to blah blah school?”

And they’ll go, “Oh yeah, my grandma.” “You should mention that.”

Nina: So funny. you’re a family therapist sort of,

Alexis: Yeah, it’s really the best part though because it’s very interesting to see how parents see their kids and how kids see their parents Kids are often relieved when I tell them, “You know, you’re really lucky to have a mom who is so helpful, with your resume, and remembers every single award you’ve ever won since you were six months old, because [00:35:00] it’s really hard to do this without that type of parent,” Cause they, and they go, “You know what? You’re right. She’s actually been really

helpful.”

Nina: Right, cause then you’d have to remember, kid

Alexis: or I have to tell the parents to go away. sometimes they’ll stick around during writing sessions, which is really wild to me. and some of my… We have a really great team of, we call them essay specialists, but you know, they’ll say, “You know, so-and-so’s mom sits in every writing session.

Like, I can’t work that way.”

I have a couple clients who I love having in the sessions because they’re awesome, and we work together really well as a team. But I would say that is so rare. Parents are usually standing in the way of all the

things

Nina: I think I imagine a way, I guess I’ve seen it with myself, the way a parent can get in the way is we’re remembering things how they were in the ’90s. , I’m talking my age, so I’m like at, you know, late 40s. We’re remembering how it was, and it’s not that way anymore. I have to imagine you get new crops of parents every year who are coming in with their 1995, memories

Alexis: That often surfaces during school selection.

So a parent will [00:36:00] go, ” Boulder? Who goes there?

San Diego State? Wait, Tulane’s… What do you mean? that’s for alcoholics.” You know what I mean? “What?

I didn’t know wha- the only people from my high school who went there were,” and then insert. So then to that, I always respond, “You know, in 1997, when I graduated, every girl in my class got into USC”

Nina: Wow

Alexis: Our school had a very close relationship with USC for myriad reasons, doesn’t even matter. If you had my husband, who was, His highest grade in high school was probably a B-minus, straight to USC. People are like, “What?” they don’t know that. I don’t know why they don’t know that.

it’s interesting. I’m like, USC was for, it’s where you go to, like, find a husband who belongs to the most expensive golf club in Southern California. That’s why you go there. That was the perception of it then. So now people are like, “But USC’s so prestigious.” I’m like, it was always prestigious, but it wasn’t always so hard to get into.

It was always a good school. But at [00:37:00] one point, yeah, it had a 70% acceptance rate.

Like, yes

Nina: that, it is hard to take that flex out of the equation, for certain kids and certain families. Obviously, you know, we have skipped over and we’re not going to really talk about it, ’cause it is a different piece of the puzzle, and that’s the financial piece. Obviously

if it is the most important thing to your family, you’re not going to, hopefully, sacrifice the financial health of your family to flex. Although some people might, I suppose. And, and there can be a discussion about whether it’s

Alexis: Oh, I hear that all the time. ” Well, but if she gets into Yale, she’s going.”

Because I think they think, and for certain schools they’re not

wrong,

the ROI is they figure, “You know what? She’s really gonna have a job when she graduates, and I’m not so sure about the other place.”

Nina: And who can be sure about anything anymore,

Alexis: I’m not sure about anything.

I mean, I think you can go anywhere at this point and also be unemployed . it depends on the major, and it depends on having toured all these really interesting schools, particularly in the Midwest, like Bowling Green State, and those places where they do an incredible job of [00:38:00] getting their kids out and working And it’s an $18,000 out-of-state tuition. and you also have to think like, “Where do I wanna work? Where do I wanna live?” Okay, so if you wanna work at a top five bank in New York City Okay, so maybe you, maybe, it’s gonna be Ross or it’s gonna be Wharton, that might not happen for you if you’re coming from Kelley.

But if you’re coming from Kelley in Indiana and you’re interested and you’re like, “I’ll work in Chicago for a couple years. Sounds great to me,

and then I’ll go to New York,” you’re gonna have more options. But if that’s your diehard platform, then you probably do have to… I I mean, I think there’s very few jobs where those types of things, where that prestige is so important.

Because also people go to grad school, and grad schools, again, unless you’re planning on working at being a partner at O’Melveny & Myers Okay, would going to Harvard Law be helpful for that? Sure. Can you get into Harvard Law having a straight A average from CU Boulder and a 180 on your LSAT? I’m not saying you can’t.

I know people who have. if you have a [00:39:00] perfect score on your LSAT, which you might, and you’ve got straight As and whatever, you can get into a lot of grad schools that are really amazing. Not that I think Harvard Law is the end all be all. I don’t even know why I’m using that as an example, but you

know what I’m saying, a

Nina: Yeah. No, as people recognize that,

Alexis: I think that that’s When we talk about fit and we talk about finding your people and creating your community, there’s so much forward thinking on the part of parents And I do have a fair amount of students who worry, you know, what’s gonna happen? And I’m like, ” Do you even remember four years ago?

let’s live in the now I have students who are convinced that what is gonna work for them now is gonna be the greatest thing ever, and then a year later they’re like, “I gotta get out of here. I hate

it.”

Nina: I was wondering if you, do you help former clients transfer? Is that…

And you’re saying, I know it’s a very small percentage ’cause you guys have worked so hard obviously to get the right fit. That’s the thing I wanted to end with is what are you finding is the issue? Is there any generalizations you can make from, about people who transfer?

Alexis: They either wanna go from a really small school or a smaller school to a much bigger school, or from a [00:40:00] much bigger school to a much smaller school. Tends to be

size-related

Nina: Yeah. Okay, so back to your original, original point is to really think hard about size and fit. I do wonder myself if social media, if you’re at a small school and you’re seeing all your friends at the games and it’s maybe you didn’t think that was something you wanted, but now you’re seeing your old high school friends, it, gotta affect things differently than when we were growing up.

Alexis: when we didn’t

know anything

Nina: Yeah, you’re watching other people’s college experiences. It’s gotta be confusing

Alexis: The other thing I think is important to remember is that freshman year, and Harlan talks about this a lot, is really hard.

Nina: people do not talk about it

Alexis: It’s really hard. you go on social media you see all these people, game day, this thing, that thing. Everyone looks so cute.

They’re in the sorority. They’re in the fraternity. They’re da, And you’re like, ” I’m not having fun like that.” Most people really actually aren’t having fun like that. that is for the ‘Gram, not that they’re having fun for the ‘Gram. But they’re only showing the best of.

Nina: Highlight reel, right?

Alexis: Freshman year is awkward. it’s really, worrisome, [00:41:00] uncomfortable. You’re, you’re transitioning through a lot of different things. Maybe you have a relationship and you’re, you just break up with your high school boyfriend or girlfriend or whatever, and now you’re, , navigating that for the first time in your life.

You were with that person for a billion years. Or maybe you’ve never kissed anyone, or maybe you’ve never, had a drink in your life, and all of a sudden you’re surrounded by… there’s just so many things. And then also thinking, “Oh, I thought I was really good at this subject, but actually now that I’m here I’m realizing I’m not that good at this subject.”

Nina: Or don’t like it.

Alexis: I thought I was gonna be a business major at UCLA. First of all, UCLA doesn’t even really have a business major. They have business economics, which is so stupid. I took one economics class. First of all, what was I thinking? I barely survived math.

But such a freshman thing.

I took economics freshman year at 8:00 in the morning

Nina: Oh, gosh

Alexis: knowing yourself, I mean, I was a morning person. I didn’t understand that college… you don’t sleep, you don’t eat right, you get sick all the time. your whole equilibrium is knocked out of alignment.

And then you also have to [00:42:00] practice self-care and figure out how you’re gonna, like, how you’re gonna take care of yourself, and that

sometimes doesn’t happen until the middle of your sophomore year. Anyway, economics I failed, and was like,

“Oh,

a

possibility.” ‘Cause I’d never done that badly in a class before, and I was

like, “Oh, I didn’t even realize that this could happen to me. Interesting.” So that’s a, that’s a no.

Nina: You only know by trying though. I actually don’t think that was the wrong thing to take the class, cause you might have always wondered, “Oh, what if I had been…” Okay, well, that helped. That was a, a nice weeding out moment

Alexis: Yeah, I realized, oh, I’m You really shouldn’t skip class

Nina: is there any last thing you wanna leave the listeners with as they, you know, anyone who clicked on this episode is thinking about belonging, friendship, college admissions process?

Alexis: As a parent, I think it’s really important to think about where your child excels outside of school, and I mean emotionally. Is your child an A student when it comes to friendships? Are they an A student when it comes to navigating conflict? Are they resilient? Do they have [00:43:00] grit? Some of those answers may be no, of course.

No, my kid doesn’t have grit. My kid’s this, my kid’s that. But the academic pieces, class size, all that stuff, that’s all really, really important. But with friendships, I think, How in the weeds do you think your kid can get and survive? And in a very large school environment, you either have a nice dissipation of that, And that’s really good for them, or it feels really overwhelming. In a small school environment could feel really suffocating. but thinking about what is my kid actually good at? Let’s get away from he has a 3.5 or he has a this or da, da, da. And I try to remind myself about that with my own kids and think, ” It’s so cool that you just tried out for the volleyball team.

You’ve never played volleyball a day in your life. That’s interesting.” So to me, that’s a sign that, you’re not perfectionistic. And my son did that. He tried out for the volleyball team last year. I’m like, what?

He wanted to be You know what? They have, they had a frosh team.

they had a seventh/eighth grade team. He wanted to be with his friends. Great. Had the best [00:44:00] time. Sat on the bench a whole bunch. I was just like, I would never have done that. I would never have had the courage to do that. I was so, not comfortable presenting myself in that way.

So I’m always clocking those little things

When my son decided to join me for the Kendrick Lamar concert, I had tickets, I was going with somebody else. He ran into the car and said, I used my own money. Opened the door, “I used my own money, I got a floor

seat.”

Nina: Oh my gosh.

Alexis: He got a floor seat for less than what I spent on my whatever seats, and he went by himself.

We went to SoFi together. he told me where to park, what to do, whatever. He said, “I’m gonna go in here. That’s where my, my… I, I am. You’re going over there at this…” He looked at my ticket. “You go over there, we’ll

meet.”

Nina: this

Alexis: And he was at the concert by himself.

Nina: Yeah, he could

go anywhere. By the way, this is a kid who could probably go anywhere

Alexis: Oh, he’s like an NYU. He’ll make friends. Those are, like, the little things. I don’t think we think about that kind of stuff, but do I care that you have a B in math when you can go to the Kendrick Lamar concert by yourself?

pretty cool

Nina: we didn’t even talk about it, and we won’t ’cause it’s too much time, but, I [00:45:00] love when you talk about soft skills and, that piece of thinking about where you might fit into college, but also, what you’re gonna learn in college . People should go to your…

I will link, I will find one of your episodes where you talk about that, and I will link it in the show notes, and, I’ll link some of my other favorite episodes of yours. Alexis, I could obviously talk to you forever, and I’m

Alexis: coming to Minneapolis, so we’re gonna be best

friends when I go

Nina: Oh, I cannot wait. I mean, I wrote down October, Minneapolis,

Alexis: I think it’s October 6th. I will email you. We will

have dinner.

Nina: Great. Oh my God, I would love it

Alexis: Nina, thank you so much for having me

Nina: i’m so excited to share this with listeners, and as I say every week, listeners, come back next week when your friendships are going well, including in college. We are happier all around. Bye. [00:46:00]