Nina: Welcome to Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship. I am your host, Nina Badzin. Today, we are talking about a topic that many people have been on different sides of. Perhaps you were or are a kid or a teen who has been dropped from a group. Perhaps you are parenting a kid or a teen in that position.

We are focusing especially today on being the parent of a kid or a teen who is dropped from a group, and how difficult that can be, and how we can show up as our best selves when you’re in that position.

Because perhaps you have never been in that position, but you might be. It is not uncommon to be on both sides of this if you have more than one kid. You may have a kid who is dropped from a group. You may have a kid who does the dropping.

My guest Andrea and I do talk some about the very normal times when you are not included in something. That is not the same as being dropped from a group. Those are separate. We go down the path for a while, mostly my own doing, because [00:01:00] I thought it was really important to clarify that it is important not to teach our kids that they will be included in everything, ’cause they won’t, and that’s okay.

if you’ve heard this podcast at all and episodes when I talk about kids or teens, which is not something I focus on often, usually I’m focused on adults, but when I do, I think it’s important kids know, and adults know too for themselves, not being in every event that your friends do, not being part of everything, not being included in some group that you’re not even really a part of, is not the same as what we’re talking about here, which is a purposeful targeting and being dropped from an established group of friends.

Different, not being part of it in the first place. That might have its own painful moments. . I’m not saying that it’s easy when you want to be part of something that you’re not a part of, that’s really a separate topic. We are talking about you are a part of it, you were a part of it, and now you are not, purposefully.

It’s not that they went to a concert. And you weren’t included It’s a systematic, purposeful way to drop you from the group. [00:02:00] Now, there may be benefits to not being in that group anymore, which we will get to at the end of the episode. You’ll have to wait all the way to the end.

Sometimes it’s hard to see that when you’re in the middle of it, whether you’re the kid or the parent. I am speaking to somebody who is really immersed in this Her name is Andrea, purposely not sharing her last name, We are not doing this one on video for the same reason, which is for the sake of Andrea’s privacy and her family’s privacy, because they had their own hard, difficult situation, she uses what she learned along the way to help so many other parents.

She’s had so much good come out of it. Andrea is the founder of Strong Mom, Strong Girl, where she helps parents, mainly moms, and you’ll hear her use the word moms a lot because I think she mainly works with mothers. She helps them support their daughters through friendship, drama, exclusion, and mean girl behavior with calm and confidence and clarity.

Everything she shares is based on her experience and years of research and trial and error, and work with women who join her groups to get her help.

You can follow her on [00:03:00] Instagram at @strongmomstronggirl. That’s all one word. from there, you will find a link, and I will put the link directly in the show notes so that you don’t have to go to Instagram if you don’t want to. You can find a link to her course and to her groups. She has some free resources.

She has some resources that you would need to join to be in community with other parents who are dealing with these issues. Andrea will be very clear with you, and she’s clear in the episode, that her resources are not to help you fix the, quote-unquote, problem of your kid not being in the group.

This is not about getting your kid back in the group. It’s about showing up for your best self for your kid to help guide your kid through this experience, and get yourself through it. Because like it or not, we might think it’s not right, we might wish it was different, this stuff does affect you as a person, as a parent.

It’s human to react emotionally when you see your kid in pain. But it does not help them to react as emotionally as they are reacting. So how do we show up steady and secure ourselves so that we can [00:04:00] help our kids through what is a very tough situation when they were part of something and then they were purposefully dropped from it?

This episode is not going to solve every issue that comes up in this arena. We did the best we could do in about 40 minutes. I hope you will reach out to Andrea if you are in this situation and you need support.

again, you will find those links in the show notes. All right, let’s just get to it. Here she is

Hi, Andrea. Welcome to Dear Nina.

Andrea: Hi, Nina. Thank you so much for having me. I’m so happy to be here

Nina: It’s a huge favor you’re really doing for me and for listeners because this is a very sensitive topic, I wanna hear from you how you got into this work, as much as you feel comfortable saying, ’cause I understand.

I personally don’t talk about things too detailed with my own kids, and so we won’t focus too much on your own family, but just as much as you feel you can say

Andrea: Yeah, absolutely. When my family was going through this situation, it was devastating not only to see your child hurt, but it’s shocking what feelings come up in you. It’s [00:05:00] shocking what it can do to the energy in your house, to the dynamic between you and your husband. It’s shocking to what happens to your own friendships as a mother, whether they are involved in, your daughter’s friend’s parents or not.

It’s at so many layers. when we were finally through it and out the other side, and I made a lot of mistakes at first, I’m sure I’ll talk about that today. when we were out the other side, I felt like I had learned so much that I couldn’t just put it in a box and put it under my bed and be done with it.

I felt so lost when I was going through it that I felt that it was almost like a duty that I had now to share what I learned with other people and become the resource that I could not find. that’s literally the bottom line

Nina: Andrea, how exactly does your business work? How do people find you? How… Is it anonymous once they’re together? Is it Facebook groups?

Is it Zooms? What is it exactly?

Andrea: Sure, sure. So I built [00:06:00] this plane while I was flying it. I mean, I didn’t even know I was gonna call it Strong Mom, Strong Girl. It was sort of like I was gonna put one post up and it asked me, “What do you wanna call this?” And I typed it in. I’m building it the best I can. First of all, I’m trying to make as much free information possible on Instagram.

I have a newsletter which I try to also give as much, insight and support and encouragement there. But I’m also running some groups, and I’m trying to tailor them for different types of lifestyles that moms have. So there are some people who don’t need the live aspect, like they don’t want a community.

They don’t have the time to get on and talk on a Zoom call. I have a online course for them where I break down my four pillars of my framework, which is understanding, mean girl behavior, for lack of a better term right now, acknowledging what moms go through, tools that I’ve seen work, and giving an element of community.

So in that, , [00:07:00] online group, you still have access to ask questions to me and other moms. You don’t ever have to interact with other moms if you don’t want to. You can just DM me for the eight weeks. Then I have a periodic live group that I run, and that’s been such a beautiful experience and even if, this has been going on for a year, even if they’re coming out of it on the other side, they wanna talk about it, and they feel all kinds of different things and, we work through that for six weeks in a live group.

And then I have some smaller options too.

Nina: That’s so helpful. , I’m sure that I personally know people who could have used a resource like that, there’s been times in my life when I’ve spiraled here and there that were shorter periods of time, I was lucky to have friends who could help.

But yeah, if you didn’t feel like you had someone you could really talk to, that would be so hard and we wanna be able to show up in a certain kind of way for our kids, which we will get into,

Are they coming to you to help their child start a new social life of some kind in their school, or are they coming to you [00:08:00] because they themselves have lost their parent social group?

Andrea: I think most people come to me thinking that I will be able to help them fix their daughter’s friend situation, whether it is from exclusion, whether it’s from being inside of the big shiny friend group but having your souls, slowly chipped away at because it’s toxic in there, whether it’s your daughter is the person who is just generally struggling to find her people.

moms come to me thinking at first that I’m going to be able to fix that for them somehow, I am very clear upfront that that’s not the mission. The mission is just to show up as the best version of yourself during this time, which when I say that, they are all like, “Okay, that actually really makes sense because I am the worst version of myself right now,” which is what happened to me.

I was spiraling. I was not sleeping. I was just [00:09:00] crushed for what was happening. I went to therapy. I got coaching. I actually have therapists in my group. I have child psychologists in my programs, they, really just reinforce the fact that nobody is prepared for this. it’s something that comes at us.

We kind of expect it to happen. We expect bumps along the way with our kids’ friendships, but the way things are today, I think it’s so different than when we were growing up. We’re the first generation of mothers to parent with cell phones and social media, so there’s that whole, layer of that.

But nobody’s prepared. That’s the bottom line. When I gently say to them, “I’m not gonna be able to solve your kid’s problem because you can’t solve your kid’s problem. But what you can do is you can get busy doing the work to show up as the best version of yourself so that your child can, borrow your peace rather than pick up on your panic.”

Nina: Oh, that’s beautiful. I love how you said that because [00:10:00] I do think often if parents would not panic, even about the smallest things when your kids are younger, like your kid wasn’t invited to a sleepover, it’s a, delicate dance of helping our kids understand, yes, be kind, be inclusive, but also helping them accept not everyone can be included.

‘Cause I do think if somebody’s raised to feel like everybody should just be included all the time, it’s sets you up for a lifetime, a lifetime, not just childhood, of disappointment. Because it’s not even always exclusive and it’s not even always people trying to be mean. Sometimes, I say this a lot, sometimes there really aren’t more seats at the table.

Like, literally, there are three seats in the car for this concert. That’s it. how do, you know, how do we

deal with that?

Andrea: I’m, glad you brought that up. I almost feel like whenever I talk about this, I have to say a disclaimer I understand that not everybody can be included, we’ve been on both sides of the dime of people thinking that we weren’t including them and then feeling not included.

So there’s both of those things happening. What I’m really talking about [00:11:00] when I say, excluded or mean girl drama, I’m talking about targeted exclusion. the kinds of things that, relational aggression and covert bullying and things like that. every mom knows like what the line is of– or maybe not every mom, but I would say a lot of moms know their daughters can’t be included in everything, that’s just not possible.

Nina: I think it’s important we continue to define this, because we’re using a lot of terms that you use a lot in your work, but it’s not common to everyone. So let’s actually take a beat to define that more. Since we have Halloween coming up, I think that’s a great one to use in this example, ’cause there’s several things.

it’s all different ages. the costume when you’re younger, and frankly, all the way through high school for parties and stuff, the group costumes. There’s the plan itself, who’s trick-or-treating, who’s not. There’s the parties, who’s invited, who’s not, as the kids get older. And then a lot of times it involves the parents, right?

If there’s the trick-or-treating group and then the parents are kinda trailing [00:12:00] behind with their mugs of whatever. I never quite did that, ’cause I was always answering the door. Someone has to answer the door. Everyone can’t go out with their mugs of steaming stuff. Let’s use Halloween to talk about the difference between some of the terms you use, whether relational aggression, bullying, exclusion, versus kinda regular, what I said, there’s not always room in the car, there’s not always… Somebody shouldn’t be asked to host 60 kids so that nobody feels bad.

this is the stuff I struggle with as someone who helps other people with this advice, and just having been a parent myself of four kids who, like you, I’ve definitely been on both sides. I’ve had parents mad at me. I’ve been disappointed with other parents. I’ve been through it all. This is coming with no judgment.

I hope listeners know that. I’ve been through everything. I have two boys. I have two girls. I’ve seen everything.

Andrea: Yeah, so let’s talk about the group costume. Everyone hates the group costume. I would say that there are some people who think that there are moms actively trying to get their daughter to be in a group costume. I haven’t [00:13:00] necessarily seen that myself, that moms are pulling strings and trying to make all these things happen, but I hear stories about that every day,

, the group costume often shows up where there’s a large shiny friend group. I call it shiny, I don’t know why. But let’s say the large friend group that everybody wants to be in, if there are really, let’s say, eight girls who are really close friends, they should be able to do whatever they want.

They should be able to have their group costume and do what they want, and that’s fine. But when there are a lot of times, and there are a lot of stories that I hear where it’s, you know, the eight girls, and then they’ll want to make it just four because they want to be the four that are at the top of the social ladder.

And there’s a lot of jockeying for position going on out there. Whether we wanna believe it or not, that happens, and those are the kind of case-by-case situations, and I don’t wanna put a general blanket over [00:14:00] anything, but that does happen. there’s something called triangulation where two girls will feel better if they can push the other girl out. Now, sometimes there are reasons for that. I’m sure that, you know, they’re maturing at a different pace, that they have more in common. But when it’s not that, when it’s a little bit more sinister and it’s more about, let’s push her out because it makes us feel closer, that’s really hard for the girl to understand, and it’s really hard for the mom to watch happen.

Whether it’s right or wrong, like I’ve always taught my daughter and my son, that everybody’s learning. The kids especially, they’re all learning, and we’re not going to like, point them out as This is a mean person.” This might be mean behavior, but it’s not a mean person. It’s when the adults then are turning a blind eye or a lot of moms tell me that moms are enabling this behavior or perpetuating it.

That’s where it really gets [00:15:00] messy. I would draw a line right here and say there’s nothing we can do really to solve what’s going on with the kids, and I think it’s so important for moms to take a step back. And one of the things I talk about all the time in my programs is let’s figure out what’s in your circle of concern.

let’s imagine a big circle. That’s your circle of concern, all the things that are bothering you. But what is in your circle of influence? what can you actually influence in this situation? It’s not gonna be what the other girls do. It’s not gonna be what the other moms do. might not even be what your daughter does at this moment.

what you can control is how you show up, and how you regulate your own panic in the situation, and you bring down the temperature, that’s what I’m really helping moms do. It’s not about, you know, pointing out all these terrible things that girls are doing. It’s more about Part of it is a, developmental phase that every adolescent goes through, and these things happen.

But it’s also making sense of it, and how do we get our daughters to [00:16:00] emerge on the other side with their self-esteem intact? Like you said, there, sometimes there’s only enough seats at the table, like, so then let’s not let our daughter beg for a seat at that table. Let’s not let our daughter beg for a seat to, get in the car that they can only go to the concert with three friends, We have to help her understand that, help her build a strong foundation to stand on and go from there.

Nina: I think that is really so well said and an important thing for people to hear. It’s not about controlling that nobody’s gonna make plans to go to a concert. We’re just gonna use the concert one now, and then back to Halloween. It’s not about controlling whether people do group costumes.

People are gonna do group costumes. It’s how can we not panic about it, like you said, and then teach your child not to beg for a place in the group costume?

Andrea: The other side of the coin is that, part of the reason I started this account was I just wanted to raise awareness around this topic to show the moms, if your daughter is in the group [00:17:00] costume, there’s still opportunity for her to learn you know, to see things from other people’s points of view.

To say Yeah, I don’t have to invite every girl. Of course, every girl can’t be in our group costume, but if there’s a girl who is sort of like has been hanging out with us and we didn’t invite her, I don’t have to make everyone invite her, but I can at least understand where she’s coming from. I can see the humanity in other people and acknowledge that.”

And I think it’s an important conversation for moms to be having on both sides of the issue. what’s such a beautiful thing is I give these moms so much credit. I’ve had moms reach out to me after seeing something on Instagram and say, “I think my daughter might be the mean girl. What do you suggest?”

And I always start by like totally applauding her and saying , “I think that is the coolest thing that you reached out to me, and are willing to have this conversation, so thank you for that.” Because that’s where I think we’re dropping the ball as parents when we say, “My kid’s included.

We’re good. I’m gonna just go on [00:18:00] with my life, and I’m not even gonna have to have this conversation with them.”

And second, I think it’s such an opportunity to help your child These are all learning experiences, and sometimes I, think some of these girls, Some of them I think know what they’re doing, let me say that first.

But some of them, I don’t think they even realize what’s happening. it’s a kid’s job at this age to push boundaries and see how much they can get away with, and it can be, I’m sure, exhilarating to have all this social power, and you get carried away with it, and you’re a kid, and you don’t know what you’re doing.

what I tell the parent is, this is such a great opportunity for you to help them because most of these k- kids, I would imagine, someday they’re gonna have some guilt. you could step in right now and help your child, get back on the right track. And I think it is about having those really difficult conversations with all of our kids.

But to stay on the track of the mom who reaches out and says, “I think my kid might be the mean kid,” this is a time to have a difficult conversation with them and tell them what you’re [00:19:00] seeing and tell them what you’re learning, again, ask them what they think. maybe they feel a certain pressure.

Maybe they feel different things. But I think a conversation would go a long way, just to create some awareness in them

Nina: I like your differentiation between somebody being basically dropped from an already existing group is very different than people in the grade kind of wish they were included, but they’re not.

that’s not bullying behavior i- in my opinion. I would say to that kid, create your own Halloween party. Create your own. we can’t just count on this one group that everyone seems to wanna be a part of to take care of everybody’s, social needs or make sure that everyone feels good about themselves.

I feel like that puts way too much power and pressure on certain kids. It’s like we have decided that the, we being the kids, other teens and other kids, have decided this one group is the group, everyone wants to be part of that group, but it’s, like, we’ve bestowed that power on this group.

Andrea: Right

Nina: they really can’t include everybody, so when, uh, there’s gotta be some [00:20:00] responsibility for other kids, other parents to be like, “Okay, no, we’re gonna plan our own thing.” We don’t have to, like you said, beg for a seat.

So then let’s say six other kids get together and create their own thing.

inevitably, there will be kids who feel left out from that, and it kind of just goes on and on. Sometimes I feel hopeless in a way.

Andrea: Right. And I think going back to social media for a minute, I think everybody thinks that the group is the goal, even parents, parents included. , “Why doesn’t my daughter have a group? I want her to have a group.” first, I don’t think the group is the goal because one friend is really all that anyone needs to start.

for example, with the Halloween costume, a mom wrote to me today and said, “My daughter doesn’t have anyone to do Halloween with. how do I get her into a group?” And I said, “Let’s take a step back, and I don’t think you’re gonna like this answer, but I don’t think that’s the goal, to get her into a group.”

First, I think the most important thing is that you don’t show that you’re wanting her to get into a group, or that you don’t feel that this is a [00:21:00] panic situation that she doesn’t have someone to do Halloween with. let’s follow her lead, too. Let’s make this an opportunity for her to develop, the skills of, , navigating difficult things.

Let’s ask her, ” what would you prefer to do? Would you prefer to do your own costume? Would you prefer to, try to find someone in your class to do, a two-people costume? maybe you could do that.” And the same applies to, the concert, the homecoming, all of these things.

It’s following our child’s lead I think a lot of times we can make the situation so much worse by saying, “Why don’t you try to do this? Why don’t you call her? Why don’t you…” You know, and I… and these are the kind of mistakes that I made at first, I started tracking, what was working, what was making me feel better, what was making the situation better, and what was making it worse, and I tried to double down on what was working and eliminate what wasn’t.

And that’s why at the end of all this, , even my husband was like, “Why do you wanna keep talking about this? Why?” And I said, “Because I feel that I [00:22:00] have something I need to, to share, and I feel like it’s, like, a opportunity to serve.”

Nina: So some of what made it better, you just said, was having the child lead. I mean, well, you lead with questions, but the kind of questions, that’s what I’m hearing, is you’re saying the kind of questions we ask is what matters. so not suggesting other groups to try to be part of or not suggesting what you think they might want, but asking, you know, what would be fun this Halloween?

Is that a good question? I think it would be a good question.

Andrea: I think so. that’s where I would start. there’s not a one-size-fits-all answer here. there’s going to be different kids who want different things and sometimes it’s the kid who doesn’t see that group is closed off to them, that group doesn’t want them in the group, it’s part of the mom’s job to have that hard conversation.

I think it’s really on us to have that hard conversation and say, I think Dr. Noelle says this. I actually wrote it down from, the last time I heard you guys talk. It was like, “Forced inclusion creates [00:23:00] fragile belonging.”

Nina: Amen. I, I said it then, I say it now. I don’t think people can hear that enough.

Andrea: And for us as moms, because again, all we can control is ourselves, the most important thing is to calm ourselves. Like, I heard someone use the term Botox brow because I have no poker face, and if my child were to tell me something really painful that happened to them, it would be written all over my face, my reaction.

there’s a lot of, value that I learned during this time that’s serving me now, even though my kids are doing great. it’s serving me now to put some space between the event and my reaction to things with my kids. And whether that means, you know, I tell moms in my programs this all the time, “L- forget Halloween, let’s just take a normal day after school,” and your child comes home, and you know that they’re going through a hard time.

Maybe it’s holding a warm cup of tea in your hand, maybe it’s holding an ice-cold glass of water. But it’s something that will [00:24:00] kind of bring you back to center to remind you To keep your face pretty neutral, to try to say less, if you want to say five things, say one of them instead, and it really does take time, and it’s like building a muscle, you can get there, and that’s what I’m, constantly trying to, encourage moms to do because the comparison that we’re doing to ourselves all the time, again, because perhaps social media, we want what we see everybody else having for our kids.

But the most important thing we can do is show them, what really matters in this moment.

Nina: What I’m hearing is, so helpful, that the goal is not a group. This is something we have to keep in mind all the time, to bring in some more neutrality to the way we react, to, the look on our face even, to ask perhaps very gentle, open question of, “What would you wanna do this weekend maybe,” or, “What would you wanna do for Halloween?”

And not suggest what we think a kid should want, or maybe what we would have wanted, right, when we were in [00:25:00] middle school or high school or, elementary school. these are all things that are so helpful. and I hear what you’re saying on, you know, keeping the focus on genuine… we were defining it before, exclusion, You’re part of the group and now all of a sudden you’re not for reasons that are unclear. you’re just not in the group chat anymore. I mean, the group chats are a lot of what’s going on. I just read a piece by Katherine Matrinko, who was a guest on the podcast, a couple years ago, and she does a lot of work not in this area per se.

She does really more work on low-tech parenting and low-tech schools, and, like, she’s really on the forefront of trying to get the phones out of schools, and the- not just the phones, the laptops, everything, and have a low-tech household. She just recently had a piece, and I’ll share it in the show notes, about not letting your kids be in a group chat even, which is hard.

That’s very hard. It’s, sort of an extreme, because her feeling is it’s not just social media. A lot of us have our eye on waiting. And she doesn’t mean ever, but, you know, junior high let’s say, you know, we’re letting our kids be on group chats, and there’s a lot [00:26:00] of discussion out there on waiting to let a kid get social media, or waiting a, for a kid to get a phone and then waiting for them to get social media.

There’s not much chatter about waiting to let them be in a group chat. I think that’s probably a false sense of control. I don’t know how we could really control that. there was an NPR story recently about kids commenting on NPR posts on Instagram. Did you see this?

Andrea: No, I didn’t

Nina: this is really interesting. So Ira Glass did a whole thing, I’ll link that in the show notes too, how there were some NPR interns who noticed that there were comments on some of the social media posts from NPR shows that didn’t make any sense, and they seemed like they were bots, and so they, kept deleting them and just didn’t s- it was, like, weird acronyms and kind of code speak.

And it turned out it was middle school kids whose parents wouldn’t let them have social media, and maybe even group chats, who were using probably the school apparatus to get on these NPR, ’cause NPR is , a above, a, it’s like a highbrow kinda thing. So they were having group chats [00:27:00] within the NPR social media posts.

Kids will find a way is my

Andrea: Yes. Right, right. Um, but I will say that, I have started to see some trends in the moms that I work with, first of all, a lot of times they will be the ones who were the last to let their kid have a cellphone in the group, and it kind of did the kid a disservice because it, just naturally bumped them out of the group because they were hard to get in touch with

Nina: Oh, this is so hard for people to hear because like, it’s like our worst nightmare

kind

Andrea: was one of those people. I was one of those people. I was the last… my daughter was the oldest, in my house, but had all friends that were the youngest in their, respective houses. So, you know what happens there. my rules are the tightest, ’cause she’s my first, and the other kids, the rules have loosened, so they’ve had cell phones for years.

And, it could go either way. It could get them in trouble or it could keep them out of, opportunities to connect. So we can’t control it. These are things we can’t control. But what we can control is whatever happens, [00:28:00] we can look at it like, this might also be an extreme, but I , still say that the bumps that we went through, they happened for us, not to us. my daughter can walk into a room now, she can go to a club, at college, go join a club, where no one else is going with her, she has the self-confidence.

She doesn’t have to move , in a giant group of people all the time. sometimes these things that happen to our kids, they’re building chops for them. And it’s pain, it’s awful, short-term pain for long-term gain. you can’t see it at the moment, but that’s why you need these little, tiny micro strategies about how to get through it

Nina: Do you think parents suffer more nowadays? Like, do you have any historical perspective? I don’t mean, like, literal, you know, citations of history, but just your sense. I would assume yes because of the phones and everything, but I don’t know. did our parents, if we were dropped from a group, did their friendships suffer as much?

Did they suffer as

Andrea: [00:29:00] No. No. They weren’t as entangled with us, as at least my parents weren’t.

My parents had their own life. They weren’t as enmeshed with mine. I mean, if I could go to a historical reference, I would say, I was meant to live on, Little House on the Prairie. I was not meant to be the first generation of mothers to have kids with phones, But here we are.

Nina: of this feels like… And it’s real. By the way, I know it is real. I see your Instagram posts, and I see the comments, and I have felt it in my own life at times. There have been times when, I mean, just to be vulnerable with you and listeners, I when you have four kids, you have the opportunity to do things a little differently, and it’s not that social circumstances change between the four kids. Everybody had to deal with homecoming, and Halloween, and different things, I changed.

to your point, that’s the work you’re doing with, parents is, it’s a really only we can change. I had to not feel things so deeply. Even smaller things, like my kid had no one to sit with on the [00:30:00] bus to camp. The way I lost sleep over that for the three days straight, my kid had probably moved on from the time that child rolled into camp. They had moved on, and I had a, long distance best friend who had to talk to me multiple times a day for several days just to, , calm myself down.

I, like, had no appetite. as I had more kids or as those kids got older, I realized I cannot live like that. That is not healthy. It’s too entrenched, too enmeshed. We have to be able to separate ourselves and be the calm that

Andrea: Yeah.

Nina: Be the steady

Andrea: And what I’ve learned about that is it’s so complicated. There was nothing wrong with how you were feeling. That was your reaction to what happened to your child. This situation was the first time that I understood that phrase where they say your heart is walking around outside your body.

that was what was happening here. people say this kind of pain you feel threatened. You don’t feel safe, it’s almost like a tiger is chasing you. what I always say is, like, “But nobody sees the tiger except for you.” And everyone else is like, “What are you making such a big deal about this for?”

[00:31:00] why do you feel so crazy? that’s what moms come to me, and when they’re in a group of people and somebody says, , “I wanted to move.” Like the other day, somebody said, “I wanted to move,” and everybody put their hands on their head and were like, “You did?” Like, “I thought I was the only one.

I thought it was just me.” that’s what we need. everybody talks about this village, you know, it takes a village. But right now, there’s a vibe out there that’s sort of like a every person for themselves. some moms who are, I hear often prioritizing popularity over integrity, that makes the world feel like it’s upside down, to the moms who are trying to teach our kids that integrity is more important than popularity. And it feels … Like, the world feels upside down when, there’s this really, like, I call it, like, emotional whiplash where you feel like Is this really happening? Am I hearing this right? Am I seeing what’s happening? It’s hard to watch.

Nina: I wanna shift to, a combo of things, which is how you’re advising [00:32:00] parents to handle their own peer relationships within this context. So their kid was dropped from a group that they were in. They were sort of cruelly, in some sort of cruel way, not the stuff we were talking about where there’s only three tickets to the concert, but

there’s a cruelty to it. We don’t know if the other parents know. So there’s first figuring that out. what’s age appropriate to even get involved with the other parents? The other parents may be purposely ignoring it or ignoring you.

you feel like you lost your friends. how do we…

Andrea: Yeah.

Nina: are you telling the parents? It’s

Andrea: I– well, the one, the only absolute that I say is do not call the other parents. Do not call the other parents because no matter how close you thought your relationship is or was with that other person, they will never put you above their child, and rightfully so, right? the only thing that I see coming out of a conversation like that is, ” Did your mom really call my mom?

Her mom called my mom.” that’s the only thing that comes out of it to me. I have heard [00:33:00] actually once, in the Midwest, I was gonna say it to you before, that, I really, love this, job because I get to talk to so many wonderful people, and it’s really restored my faith in humanity, like seeing so many wonderful moms, and so many of them are from the Midwest.

And I was like, “I think I should have lived in the Midwest.” But in the Midwest, the only story I’ve ever heard is one mom who reached out to a big group of friends, she wrote to the chat. She wrote to the group chat, half the group chat wrote back to her and said like, “I’ll do whatever it takes to support you.”

that’s the only time I’ve ever heard it going well. so what else do I tell moms to do? That I tell them do not call the other mom. I tell them my own experience that to me it wasn’t about my relationships. it was very isolating, because you all of a sudden, people that you thought you trusted, you see a different side of them, even though you understand that they’re going to line up with their daughter.

It’s so complicated. you’re being taken out of your social environment in a time where you need it the most, so it’s [00:34:00] such a lonely experience which is part of the reason that I also wanted to do this, to give moms a community, a place to go to feel seen. that’s really the only advice I have with , the other parents.

Nina: Yeah. No, that’s good advice. . Andrea, I know you have other ideas for things parents can do to help in these situations or things that you have seen help, and we talked about a few already, which was the being a little more neutral, asking certain kinds of questions, being careful with the questions you ask, not pushing your own agenda of what you might have wanted,

Andrea: yeah, one of the things I think has been really powerful is looking at, what is the need that you need to get met as a mom right now? first it’s being seen. I think that’s a big one. just the fact that that’s why this account has grown so fast is people are just saying, ” I thought I was the only one,” and it’s, like, so comforting to see other people.

But beyond that, your need as a mom probably isn’t for your daughter to be popular. It’s probably not for her to have a giant shiny [00:35:00] friend group. It’s more about you needing to take care of her during this time. So if we can, , reframe our needs, like that’s one of the things I talk with moms about, you can then see Oh, I actually can get that need met.

Like, I can take care of her in other ways, and one of the ways is to show up steadier myself for her.” because if there’s one thing we know, it’s that our daughters are watching us, They’re watching us. They pick up on our energy. They pick up on cues of Does Mom think this is the end of the world, or does Mom think I can get through this?”

And that’s a big determining factor in if she emerges from this with her self-esteem intact. You know, there’s another need you could say that, I need her to, launch with success at the end of this experience despite what she’s going through. And You know, that’s a kind of a flip from the fear that this is gonna ding her forever.

that her self-confidence will never recover. So if my need is that I need to know that she’s gonna be okay and she’s still gonna launch, there are other ways I can get that need [00:36:00] met, and it’s not about f-finding her a friend group or getting her involved with other people. It, could even just be like peeling back layers of her.

, What is she interested in? let’s get her future focused. Maybe she gets a job. Maybe she babysits. You know, and looking at those, , actionable things that we can do to support our kids during this, and in turn, we end up calming ourselves and, taking that temperature down again.

Nina: Oh, that’s great. Good advice. I love the future focus concept this is a temporary time. And it doesn’t feel like it for the kid or the parent when they have been dropped from a group. It feels like this is forever. And of course, you can’t just say that to a kid, but getting them actively working on something that is future-focused, like you said, it’s a really good idea

Andrea: it’s like widening the lens. You know what I mean? Because when this happens, there’s a hypervigilance that, , gets us to zoom all the way in as if, this is the only thing in our life that’s happening. And if you can zoom out and, , teach your kid that [00:37:00] skill… I’ve seen a lot of moms, , take that and run with it, and all of a sudden the kid is, , studying their butt off for the SATs and getting into their dream school and, That’s what happened with my daughter. She got super future-focused, and that’s why I say, , these things sometimes happen for us and not to us. I mean, it doesn’t feel like that in the mo- in the moment, but in the long term I think, , hindsight’s 20/20 and you can see it. And sometimes you need somebody with hindsight that can tell you these things I always say, like, I’m trying to be like a rope.

I’m trying to throw you a rope back through the process and, , pull you through it, ’cause I know you can get through it

Nina: I’d add one thing, of hope

There’s an expression, and I don’t know exactly what it is. I’ve seen it a few times, but I may say it wrong. But this idea that rejection is an opportunity , if these kids are dropping you, if you’re being drop- They may know something that you as the parent, don’t know.

you may not understand what’s happening, but the kids who dropped your kid, maybe they’re getting into some stuff that your kid is so clearly not gonna be along the ride for. These kids know, like, “This kid’s gonna hold us back.” [00:38:00] That’s good for you and your family.

You want your kid to be not part of that. It’s, so we might not see it at the time, but that rejection, I mean, I, I’ve seen this in my own life with my own family, that sometimes the group that didn’t work out was actually a blessing. Doesn’t feel like a blessing at the time. At the time, it feels horrible.

It feels like a ding to their self-esteem, and it feels like pain and hurt and, and like I said, rejection. But it actually is an opportunity for your child to find friends that are a better fit, that are going the places you want your kid to go

Andrea: Yes. And I will say two things on that. First, I totally know what you mean. I- and I’ve heard it said rejection is protection,

and rejection is redirection. those are two things that totally ring true. And secondly, a trend that I have seen in the groups that I work with with moms is that these are really, really good moms.

These are moms who are teaching their kids to be upstanders. These are moms who are teaching their kids to speak up when they see something that’s not [00:39:00] right. sometimes these are kids who aren’t wanting to do the risky behavior or maybe they’re just, not needing all of the validation that comes with the risky behavior.

that’s a trend where I, try to point out to the moms, if teaching your kid the right thing is wrong, then, I don’t mean to say it like so dramatically the way people would say it in the past, , then I don’t wanna be right. I want to teach my kid to be an upstander.

I want to teach my kid to do the right thing. I think in the end, they’ll be better off for it

Nina: Right. Because, a lot of people I’m hearing from throughout my career of talking about friendship, . It’s adults who are really struggling with their own friendships, the, who they themselves maybe don’t feel that they understand where to fit in or how to make new friends or how to keep friends.

one slight benefit to having gone through a difficult time and gotten through it and come on to the other side as a kid, a teen, is, like you said about your own daughter, you do have the confidence that you can, that you’ve been through a [00:40:00] hard social time and that you, didn’t happen immediately, that it, everything was better, but eventually it was better.

And, uh, you’re giving that hope to other parents that they too, as an adult, will be able to get through this. And yeah, life isn’t always just unscathed. We don’t go through life unscathed. and the people who do, I think, get to be adults who really, really, really struggle with, any social disappointment, which is everywhere to be found.

I mean, there’s always times where people do stuff without us, and we’re not included, and I know we’re talking about bigger, bigger kinda social issue than that. But even those small things can really derail a person, ‘ cause they see it as a monster social issue when they weren’t included in one thing, maybe ’cause they never dealt with this kind of thing.

Andrea: Right, right.

Nina: Andrea, before we say goodbye, ’cause, like, there’s so many, you have so much experience.

I mean, there’s so many things we could talk about, and it’s hard without getting into real people’s real examples, including yours, including mine. So, uh, we probably should just wrap it up but is there any last thing you wanna leave the listeners with?

Andrea: what I would say is, I ask moms [00:41:00] this all the time. Let’s fast-forward five years. If you could wave a magic wand, what would you want your daughter to look back and say about how you showed up for her during this time? And then begin with the end in mind and work backwards because it will strengthen your relationship, showing up steady and strong for her

Nina: Thank you for sharing your experience with us. I’ll have all the way listeners can find you in the show notes so that they can be led to your course, to your groups, and they can connect with you and with other parents who are going through similar things, and then can show up for their kids in the best way possible.

So thanks for having this chat with me.

Andrea: Thanks so much, Nina. I loved our conversation

Nina: And listeners, come back next week when our friendships are going well, when we are steady about our kids’ friendships, we are happier all around. Bye