Nina: [00:00:00] Welcome to Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship. I am your host, Nina Badzin. Today, I am covering a topic that’s hard. A lot of them are hard, actually. I’m not sure why I’m singling out this one, but I guess this one feels extra hard because there’s no clear answer. I am speaking to writer and communications strategist Amy Lafountain, who has been a longtime Dear Nina listener. She’s been a longtime member of the Facebook group that I mention here often called Dear Nina: The Group on Facebook, where we discuss all the ins and outs, ups and downs, good stuff, bad stuff of adult friendships. And sometimes kids’ friendships too, as it affects adults’ friendships, or as we adults are trying to help kids. But anyway, this one’s really about adults. And we are talking about the endings of friendships, which is not a new topic on here at all. the angle we are coming at it with today is, what do we owe a friend when we know we are done?

Amy has written about this topic [00:01:00] before. She is a fellow friendship enthusiast. That is often what I call myself. We are both students of friendship. We are just two people really engrossed in this topic, having a discussion about what is a way to address the fact that sometimes we just know we’re done.

Sometimes we know we don’t want to resolve an issue. And oftentimes, there is no major issue. If there was a major issue, it wouldn’t be so hard. It would be easier to let someone know, “This was beyond repair. I don’t want to talk about it. I’m done.”

But what do you owe the person with whom it is not like that? It is not one thing. It’s life has shifted, your priorities have changed, you don’t have the time you used to have, and being honest with yourself, I wouldn’t say it this way to someone, The time you do have, you are prioritizing elsewhere

Really, what do you do when you know the friendship cannot continue the way it is? Your friend really knows it too, ’cause you’re probably starting to pull away, but you [00:02:00] also don’t want to hurt the other person. What most people do is what we call the quiet quitting, where you pull away, you don’t answer as quickly, and it’s a fading out.

It’s the slow fade. There’s a lot of words for it. more and more, I see therapists suggest that it is much kinder to be clear and direct and say something along the lines of… Well, you know what? I’m gonna save that for the episode because we discuss it in the episode.

There are no perfect scripts at all. There are ways to be more clear, there are ways to be thoughtful, there are ways to leave both people with a little less confusion. just know we do not come to any perfect conclusion. I think it is very challenging to come to a perfect conclusion on a topic that is so touchy and so, specific to each friendship. But obviously it’s a big one, friendships end, many of them do, how can we do it with a little more grace and a little less avoidance? Let’s see if Amy and I can figure it out

Hi, Amy. Welcome to Dear Nina.

Aimee: [00:03:00] Hi, thank you so much for having me

Nina: I have to say finally because we’ve been in touch for a long time over the topic of friendship

Aimee: Yes. it, this is a natural fit. I feel like a long time listener, first time guest.

Nina: Yes, exactly. very excited to have this conversation with someone who I consider in the group of fellow friendship enthusiasts. There’s a bunch of us out there. you know, it’s, it’s a funny topic.

This is really not our topic, I find that there are so many people popping up who are talking about friendship, and everyone kind of thinks they’re the first. it’s a rude awakening once they realize, like, “Oh, there’s actually all these other podcasts and all these other people and books, and that no one’s the first.”

And That’s a good thing, because if only one person was talking about it, that would mean there’s no interest in it. So I try to assure the newbies, like, “Hey, guys,

Aimee: can be a dialogue

Nina: this is exactly, this is a good thing. If you’re the only one, if you get onto going to Barnes & Noble and, your book’s the only book, there’s no section for you.”

this

Aimee: You’re talking to yourself then., That’s so true. I was like that with even the idea of friendship enthusiast. I’ve referred to myself that way for a while, and then [00:04:00] I heard you recently refer to yourself as that, and I just thought, “You see? You see? I’m not the only one.”

Nina: So we are talking about something that has been discussed on this podcast, of course, before, but we’re coming at it at a different angle, which is how to end a friendship in a way that you will not regret, a way that you could hold your head up in the future. And it doesn’t mean that when you’re involved in these moments of ending a friendship that it isn’t extremely painful and difficult on both sides of it. You had an article about friendship breakups way back in 2019, there has been lots of discussion just on my podcast alone about ghosting versus quiet quitting versus having the conversation.

one other thing I wanna say before we get into it for listeners is that you and I have talked a lot offline, but we’ve also talked through the Facebook group that we’re both in, that I run, which is Dear Nina: The Group, and friendship breakups come up a lot. I just wanna say from the get-go that there’s really no good way, because when people write about it, they may say, “Somebody dragged me along,” and they didn’t like [00:05:00] that, and they would’ve preferred something like we’re gonna talk about today, a more direct conversation.

But then sometimes people have had a direct conversation, and they say, “Why was that necessary? I didn’t need to hear all the reasons. Just drag me along like everyone else does.” I don’t know the answer, but in your article, you and the main therapist you spoke to talked a lot about having a direct conversation. The first thing I wanna talk to you about is the Taylor Swift/Blake Lively very public friendship breakup.

Tell us what you learned about that, and we’ll go from there

Aimee: So I actually think they’re a positive example of how to proceed. Not because it had a happy ending, and that’s, that’s really the takeaway to keep in mind here. Because as far as we know, they are not still friends. I mean, Blake wasn’t at the wedding. We don’t know if Taylor’s still the godmother. But to be fair, if you look at the emails that leaked from that Baldoni case, the exchange that they had, they had a very thoughtful, open dialogue.

to me, [00:06:00] that’s what it’s about. It’s you don’t start these discussions necessarily because you want a perfect outcome or because you think it’s necessarily going to definitely save the friendship, but it’s a litmus test of where things are. And at the very least, you hope that you come out of it with more knowledge and perspective and clarity about things.

I actually would encourage people reach out the way they did,

Nina: Can you read it to us? Or t- or, or describe it? ‘Cause not everyone’s gonna know what we’re talking about

Aimee: so basically because of the Baldoni case, I think it sounded like Blake was pretty consumed with that, she sent a text to Taylor, and she said, ” You know, I might be crazy, but I wanted to reach out.

I’m sensing things are different.” She acknowledged what she was feeling, and she took accountability. She said, ” I fear I’ve been kind of self-centered because I’ve been going through all of this stuff, and I wanted to make sure we were okay.” she was [00:07:00] also open to criticism and improvement, which I commend.

She said, “If something was wrong, I wanna know and fix it.” to her credit, Taylor Swift responded, didn’t shy away from the discussion. She was honest without being hurtful, and she was understanding of what Blake was going through as well. And she said, “You know, I know you’re going through a lot, so I almost feel bad even saying this.

But it does feel like you’re sort of, I know how this is, but you are sort of talking to me almost in PR speak. Just talk to me like a friend. I just want my friend back, even though you’re going through all this.” And we don’t know, of course, what happened after that sub, in subsequent discussions.

But I thought they both were very much open and thoughtful and met the moment, as they say. to me, that’s the way it should be. I, I think that’s honestly a really good example of how to go about it. You can’t, of course, control the other person and how they’re gonna respond. But if I were in that situation, that’s the way I would hope it would go.

Putting [00:08:00] it out there how you feel, being open about that, but respectful. And hopefully the other person leveling respectfully with you as well

Nina: I agree. It really was a good case of not just pretending nothing was wrong. , I appreciated the Taylor Swift side of it, that when Blake reached out … and listeners, we’re talking about this because we don’t often have real-life people to refer to. I saw a TikTok today of somebody who shared the texts of their own good friend, obviously not a friend anymore, and they blacked out the, person’s name.

I’m gonna make up the names, but let’s say that the TikToker person I saw was … And it’s just a regular person, no one famous. Let’s say her name is Katie. let’s say that her friend who was trying to end the friendship, not directly, let’s give her the name Gretchen, So Katie’s the one whose video I saw, and Katie’s like, “Oh, I finally realize that my best friend Gretchen, my ex-best friend, was trying to end the friendship.” And she shares almost a year of texts back and forth [00:09:00] between

her and Gretchen. i- in these texts, Katie, the person making the video, is saying things like what Blake was trying to say at first, which was, “I feel like you’re pulling away and you haven’t texted back in a long time.

We haven’t seen each other in so long. Is something up?” She gives Gretchen the opportunity to say what might the problem be, and Gretchen does not do what Taylor’s did. Gretchen was like, “No, no, I’ve just been so busy.” This is what quiet quitting is, okay? “No, I’ve been really busy. you’re great. it’s not you. I haven’t been in touch with anybody.”

, So that sort of assuaged Katie’s fears for a little bit. She let some time go by, then she reaches out again. “Hey, Gretchen, I miss you so much. it’s been months since we’ve gotten together.” And then Gretchen again says, “No, no, no.” “My phone broke.” It’s sort of insulting Katie’s intelligence, but I think ’cause Katie wants to believe, Katie wants to be okay. That’s how a lot of people are. You just

Aimee: Cause who wants to think nega- negatively? Who wants to assume the worst that things have changed even though you’re sensing something?

Nina: This goes on, slide after slide after [00:10:00] slide , Katie’s trying to get Gretchen to just admit there’s a problem, Gretchen never, ever, ever does.

A birthday goes by, happy birthday

to Gretchen.

Gretchen th- oh,

yes. So fast-forward to the end. They haven’t been in touch now in a very long time, and then the comments are not mean-spirited at all. I think people understand that Katie came to make this video from a place of pain.

But the comments are like, “Katie, she’s clearly been trying to distance herself from you way back on slide one.” this gets to our main topic we’re, we’re gonna keep working towards, which is how can you end a friendship in a way that is more graceful than dragging your friend along?

Which is the more common way

Aimee: quiet quitting, like you said, that’s kind of basically a mild version of ghosting, and one of my big issues with ghosting is it doesn’t make it easier. Ghosting basically makes the other person do the emotional work of figuring things out. the one person might know, “I’m done with this friendship.”

The other person doesn’t know, [00:11:00] and has to kind of read the tea leaves and, the mystery wall, putting it all together. So you’re sort of passing on that emotional labor, which I think is kind of harsh, and it’s cruel in a way. It’s,

you

Nina: I think so.

Aimee: just because you can’t deal with that. Not that it’s an easy discussion by any means, but there’s a cruelty there

Nina: Right. There’s a saying, “Clear is kind,”

and I think that applies here. . What would it look like to do the Katie-Gretchen conversation? We don’t know them, but just using them in a more direct way. So Katie reaches out and says, “Hey, Gretchen.

I feel like I haven’t heard from you in a long time. I, I text you, you don’t text me back. What’s going on?” Gretchen now has an opportunity to do it differently. What would that look like?

Aimee: Ooh. Oh, that’s a good question. and I will draw upon my personal experience. You do have to be open to the possibility of getting an answer that you don’t like or don’t want when you start these discussions. you have to be open to the fact that, like you said, [00:12:00] somebody’s signaling something in their response, even if they don’t have the heart to say it.

You have to be open to reading between the lines there, even though you would hope somebody would be more upfront. I would say two things. one, of course, always try to engage the person, but really look into their answer and see what that might be telling you. Maybe not the first time, because we’ve all had moments where we’re busy in our lives, and so that could be the case.

So in, in her defense, maybe you don’t necessarily wanna get to that point after the first time you check in. But depending on the situation, like you mentioned the birthday, I think there are moments that are tells that kind of indicate a status mark. For example, I, years ago, had one very close friend, I relate to this story and the fact that she was a bit on the avoidant side.

Um, and I had sent her a couple texts here and there saying, you know, “Miss you. Haven’t seen you in a bit. Hope everything’s okay.” And the real tell moment to me was one day she told me she was moving to the other [00:13:00] coast. And I said, “Oh my goodness, that’s exciting. Good for you.” I said, “I hope I get to see you before you leave.”

Similar to Gretchen, she said, “Well, you know, I’m gonna be busy packing and prepping and getting ready.” And, in that moment, I thought, “Oh, there it is. Because, yes, we never wanna be self-centered too much or in our own world too much, but I also couldn’t help but acknowledge to my…

And I didn’t say this to her, but I couldn’t help but acknowledge when I was thinking about it, ” Okay, signaling that it’s not necessarily gonna be a priority to see me before she goes, then that’s an indicator.”

Nina: Well, the first indicator was did you even know that she was considering this move?

Aimee: No, actually. No, that’s that’s a good quest- Yeah. Oh, God, yes. I will say she had referenced wanting to go back to the coast,

Nina: But you don’t just up and go, right? you’re looking for a place to live. When is your lease up? you’re worrying about should I

renew my lease or not, my [00:14:00] apartment? You know, whatever it

Aimee: This is the beauty of discussions, you unravel, you uncover new things. See? This is the beauty of conversations about friendship

Nina: What I really wanna know though, like what I’m asking in here is, in this make believe situation but also in your situation, because they’re similar situations, what could Gretchen or your friend do?

How could they do it so it’s not a quiet quitting? What would it look like, and this is really what your article was about,

to do it more directly? ‘ one way to end a friendship is the way we are talking about, hoping the other person catches the hint. But we’re sort of suggesting here that there’s a kinder way to do it, even though it’s harder in the short term.

Aimee: So I think of course, first of all, it depends on where the person’s at. What you wanna say is going to change based on whether or not you think there’s hope for the friendship to go on. If you think you’re really done, you wanna somehow signal something a little bit more definitive, something for example, ” I don’t think I’m going to be as available as I used to be,” or, “I’m sorry that I’ve maybe made a shift in my life, that I am in a different place now than I was,” something [00:15:00] along those lines.

Um, I remember we had a discussion in your group about different availability in friendships, I had to use that line on somebody who just wanted more from me, wanted me to be available more than I could, and I said to her, I I don’t think I can be as available as you want me to be.”

So you could signal something like that if it’s more definitive that you don’t see yourself wanting to remain in that person’s life and in friendship. If it’s something where the issue could be resolved and you think there’s hope there, and you do want to improve the friendship and hopefully repair, then of course somebody might say, you know, “Next time we’re both free, I hope we can sit down and have a chat.”

And even if you wanna say catch up, if you don’t want it to be kind of dropping word bombs about how you express it, something along those lines. I think how somebody feels is going to impact how they word it.

Nina: The availability piece I think is actually often part of the problem, [00:16:00] and it is a good thing to say honestly to somebody. It’s personal, but it’s not insulting, I don’t think. I wonder if the average person would rather that a friend, a good friend, sit them down and say, “Things in my life have changed, and I’m not gonna be as available,” as opposed to just slowly ghosting, like we’re saying. Quiet quitting is, is really just a slow ghosting, would it be kinder to be more clear and not wait for the person? I mean, it would take a really self-assured and brave person to not wait for their friend to notice less availability oftentimes people wait for the Katie, or the you in this case, I’ve been in this position too, trust me, to have to reach out and say, “I miss you.”

all the things we say to signal, are we still friends? That’s what you’re really asking. Like, are

we still friends? Yeah

Aimee: Yes. Yeah, status check

Nina: so one thing as you and I are talking, we’re sort of talking, uh, two different things at once. There’s these texts happening, and that’s pretty realistic, or emails, and then we’re suggesting maybe a [00:17:00] conversation happens in person.

I come from the standpoint normally that in person is better if you are an in-person friend, or on the phone if you’re a long-distance friend And it may be, uh, because I have teenage kids and I see a lot of texts and things get shared and they call them paragraphs. people that age in high

school and college. Yes, and it’s not really on regular texts, it’s usually on Snapchat. Uh, but sometimes it’s a regular text, and they will say, “Oh,” s- yes, they can, but they, people have ways of saving them. They have, they take a picture with someone else’s phone or so- they have their methods. they use the language, Oh, so and so wrote me a paragraph,” and they usually mean that with, like, eye roll, like, sigh.

“Oh, oh my, now I have to address this thing.” I’m very distrustful of written communications. I think anything you write to someone, no matter how old you are, you should assume it’s very possibly going to be screenshot, shared, or at least shown, like, with the phone, shown to somebody else.

So it’s fine to write, but just know that you are writing for more than an audience of [00:18:00] one, and so write it in a way that

you…

Aimee: long-term than that day

Nina: Yes, and I feel like you had a different view of written communication, which I think is worth sharing

Aimee: I think it can be a good thing, for a couple reasons. Number one, and maybe this is the writer in me, I do think especially if you’re somebody who either freezes in the moment or has trouble finding the words in real time in a discussion, texting might be a better option for you to take that extra beat to get your thoughts together, make sure you’re expressing yourself the way you want to.

It might help deescalate things a little bit. The other thing is you can’t refute text. not unlike a romantic breakup, if we have moments down the line where of course I think most of us aren’t 100% confident that we’ve handled things perfectly every time, there is something to be said for having it recorded in a text thread back and forth.

If you have your moments where you think, “Oh, maybe I was too harsh [00:19:00] with that person. I, maybe I missed that friend.” Going back and saying, “Oh, this is what they said. This is why…” Having that explanation there, and I don’t mean it to dwell on it, but just to kind of remind you of that perspective of this is why things happened the way they did

Nina: that’s fair. I think that’s a good argument for the written down thing, but I think my point still stands is if you’re gonna be the person writing anything, just know that it’s probably not just for that audience. So just be careful. But. I agree it’s nice to have some written record of things, ’cause I’ve had some things with friends over the years where it was only spoken, and then yeah, you really are relying on your memory that is

Aimee: Mm-hmm easily persuaded by your opinion.

Yeah, we’re biased. And it’s also good, I think, on the sender’s part, the person initiating. I had one experience years ago, I said to them basically … And I was trying to start a discussion. And I said, “You know, it feels like [00:20:00] you want me to value your time, but you’re not giving me the same in return.

These are my concerns that I’m, I’m feeling.” they got the message, but they never responded. And but that’s perspective. That’s perspective

to me that when I … Yes, exactly. No response is a response, and that told me where I was at with them. And basically what it boiled down to was I looked at that friendship and I said, “Okay, I have one of two options here: to accept things the way they are, to continue being friends with this person, or to move on because they don’t wanna have a conversation with me.”

I always say that I try to initiate these things and not leave people wondering what happened. That person does not have to wonder why I put distance because it’s, it’s right there. I always say if they ever wondered, it’s right there in the message.

And I have that perspective of I know I tried, and I can look back at that message and know I made that effort. And also, we can’t force people to do anything, so I don’t know anything else I could have done beyond that. I can’t [00:21:00] make somebody respond to me. But I can look back and have that perspective that I did try to start a discussion

Nina: I wanna say that I understand why some people don’t want to have a discussion in person or even text something direct and actually clear, because they’re so non-confrontational, but also to give people the benefit of the doubt. They’re so afraid of hurting someone’s feelings. Like, oftentimes it’s not a contentious issue.

If the reason they don’t wanna be friends anymore is ’cause of a very terrible thing that happened, then that’s not hard.

It’s, you did this thing. I’m done. I don’t really care to keep going. That’s not so hard. It’s harder because oftentimes it’s someone who’s been a good friend, who was there during an important part of life, and even if they have stopped being a good friend or you have your own reasons for having a shift in your life, yes, you don’t want that person in your life anymore, but you also don’t want to be hurtful.

And so we think if we don’t say it directly, it would be less hurtful. But as we’ve established, and I think [00:22:00] anyone who’s spent any time in my Facebook group, and if you haven’t, you’re welcome to join at, Dear Nina, the group, you will see that it is very hurtful. A lot of those posts in there are from people who are trying to figure out if their friend is trying to create distance, and I think most of the time when those of us are reading…

It’s usually an anonymous post. When I’m reading those, and I’m wondering if you feel the same when you’re reading those, it’s usually obvious to me reading it, yes, that person’s trying to create distance. That’s what it looks like. I myself have been in this position, so I’m saying this with no judgment.

I 100% have been in the position where I’m trying to figure out if someone’s creating distance. It’s just easier to see with other people’s situations.

Aimee: Uh, we’re on the outside.

Yeah. Well, you know what it is? Most people, I think, don’t want to start an argument, and that’s one of the primary reasons they avoid the discussion. And then also, I think like you said, they don’t necessarily want to engage or initiate a discussion like this, even if things have changed, out of respect for how the friendship once was very important and meaningful.

And [00:23:00] I would argue that that’s also, though, a reason to have the discussion, out of respect for what that friendship was before

Nina: Yeah, that’s true. I did a whole episode, my first episode with Dr. Marissa G. Franco was exactly about this, how to sit down and… It wasn’t necessarily about ending a c- friendship though. It was more about how to sit down and talk to your friend about a problem you’re having. And what makes this episode different is,

Aimee: Yes

Nina: is the very thing that makes it hard to have the conversation, because if you’re sitting down with a person, it is almost like you’re inviting a discussion about how we can improve things.

You mentioned this earlier in the episode. And if you are very sure that you don’t want to get into an argument is one way of saying it, or even a friendly, nice, nobody’s yelling or crying discussion of how to improve the friendship, sometimes you just don’t want to. You’ve moved on.

Aimee: Everybody has their own breaking point, and it’s hard when two people don’t have the same breaking point

Nina: some people maybe are willing to or want to work on a friendship [00:24:00] more. I’m curious where this fits into dating. It’s, it’s interesting the way we approach dating is with more of an acceptance of Okay, this one’s not for me,” for whatever reason. And oftentimes there is more of… I’m talking about if you actually are been seeing each other, not if you’re just in the flirting, discussing stage, and then people sort of disappear, but you’re in an actual relationship, and then the two of you decide or one of you decides we’re not gonna be in a relationship anymore.

Not that it’s not hard. It’s hard to break up. we seem to accept more that, ” Okay, it didn’t work out. Now I’m back to looking for someone else.” With friendship, it’s just so much harder to let go.

Aimee: Well, for a lot of reasons. Number one, there’s no established dialogue or norms the way there are for romantic relationships. Even though it’s cliche to say, ” . it’s not you, it’s me,” we don’t have that lingo for friendship breakups. We don’t have a standard go-to term, which is one of the reasons I wrote the article, was I thought there’s no script for this that I’ve heard.

[00:25:00] but also, I think we, we downplay that there are seasons to friendships. You know, especially from the time we’re kids, it’s the BFF, it’s friends forever. I think I’ve heard people talk about divorce as feeling like they failed somehow, and I think on some level sometimes we struggle with friendship breakups because we feel like it’s a failure of the friendship somehow.

So I think that’s part of it, that there’s sometimes a shame or a guilt, and it’s good to be introspective in those situations, but it doesn’t always mean, like you said, that one or both parties are even at fault. Sometimes things just go in different directions

Nina: And I think people take it more personally than dating ’cause you can have more than one friend at a time. Of course, you can date more than one person at a time, I suppose, if you’re in a certain kind of relationship. But

Aimee: that’s true

Nina: f- for, for the most part, let’s say your dating situation is more monogamous, you don’t have to have just one friend.

So when somebody really decides they [00:26:00] don’t wanna be your friend anymore, I mean, they really don’t wanna be your friend anymore because they can have more than one. that’s, to me, why it’s always felt more heartbreaking. It’s like you are really making a choice here to not have me in your life even though you can have lots of friends.

We all kind of understand, someone can have lots of friends, so, so to cut one off, it’s like, wow, you must have an issue.

Aimee: definitive. Yes.

and that’s always a question, too. does somebody wanna pull back and be less involved, or is somebody really done? Both things can happen as well, but of course, that’s always a hard adjustment, too, if both people aren’t on the same page, for one person to say, “I’m in a different place in my life.

I’m not able to spend or don’t want to be as involved with this person,” and then the other person to feel sort of left behind if they’re not feeling that, too. sometimes it’s not personal, I think it’s very important, I often remind myself, don’t take something personally that isn’t. But even when you just notice kind of the data of spending less time together or being less in touch, it’s [00:27:00] difficult

Nina: And sometimes it is personal, and

that’s… Yeah, so I want us to get to, like, the final piece of this puzzle, which by the way, I- we know there’s no straight answers here, you guys. We’re just having a discussion of what it feels like when you know you’re done and when your friend is clearly done and you’re not done.

So we talked about being the person who wants to be done, and maybe to encourage people to be more direct, to not just ghost, to not just quiet quit. But what about when you are on the receiving end of this? So if, if doing this, if ending a friendship with more grace or being able to hold your head up high means not allowing the other person to live in a place of mystery endlessly, it’s kinder to not let it be a mystery.

How do we be on the receiving end of such an overture where somebody is like, “I’m not gonna be as available”?

Aimee: I think that it is hard, but both people have to extend grace. You have to be understanding even if you don’t like what they’re saying. I will say, I don’t wanna sound like it’s all [00:28:00] gloom and doom. Sometimes, and this is an incentive to have the discussion, sometimes things can be resolved. I wanna emphasize that if there’s a misunderstanding or if it’s not intentional, it’s good to initiate these discussions even though they’re not always easy or comfortable, because you can get to a better place.

And I would emphasize that you can bring up these things, and if there’s willingness on both sides to work at it, you might feel relief after. I’ve had situations with friends where thankfully it wasn’t the end of things, but I did wonder, “Oh, is this drifting?” Or, “Does this person have a concern with me?”

And it wasn’t easy, but when I brought it up and then they said, “Oh my goodness, I didn’t realize that,” or, “Oh my God, I’m so glad you said this,” I was relieved after. it got to a better point. Now, that doesn’t always happen, but there’s also the chance for that. But I think a lot of this comes down to you have to be aware of your limits of your control.

You can have an open discussion, and that’s, I would [00:29:00] say, the best you can do. But you can’t necessarily control your friend’s view of you, what they think of you. All you can do is express yourself and where you’re coming from the best you can, and hope that they receive that honestly and openly. But It never ceases to amaze me. It’s a wild thought that sometimes people choose to believe something about you, and that’s out of your control. That’s one of the biggest challenges to me

Nina: Oh, same. Oh my gosh, it’s the biggest challenge to me because all I wanna do is explain why they’re wrong

Aimee: Yes.

Yes. Yes.

The receipts, exactly, that’s the hard part, too, is I don’t… I always say I don’t know how you break down that wall. Maybe you can’t. But that also shows you where the friend is at, because I had one conversation with a former friend where she initiated the discussion, which was good, and there had been distance for a while.

like I said, this could also be an advantage of texting. I think there’s a lot to be said [00:30:00] for clear questions and clarifying questions, and I actually wish I had asked her at the moment. She believed I did something that her husband said I did, and I didn’t. it took me a beat to recall the exchange, and then it came back to me.

But what I didn’t say at the time, but I thought of later that I wish I had said was, “You really believe I would do that?” Because this is somebody who’d known me for so long, but I didn’t think of it in the moment.

Nina: Really, it’s like surprising. Like, oh, this person who’s my close friend, all these good things I’ve done over this time led them to that conclusion?

Aimee: Yes. Yes. Yes. And it’s, it’s kind of wild how people’s views can be influenced and changed over time or through different experiences, different people, it’s very hard. All you can really do, it’s frustrating of course, and I’m not saying that it’s easy to gracefully handle it, but sometimes people choose to believe things, and you’re gonna have to [00:31:00] know your limits in changing that

Nina: And you really can’t force anybody to do friendship differently than they’re ready to do at that moment. So if someone comes to you and says, “I’m not as available,” or, “I feel like you are asking for more than I’m able to give,” at that point, I don’t think I would litigate the situation. this is what they perceive.

It doesn’t mean you have to just roll over and be like, “Yep, you’re right. This friendship should be done.” You, you can, you can state your thing, but it… They may be right. That’s why I said sometimes it is personal. They may be correct that you want more, and you can admit that and say, “You’re right.

I would want more, and I need more, and I think I deserve more.” And the other person can say, “I can’t be the one to give it.” maybe you both could agree that we’re imbalanced here. Instead of it being like an accusation, it’s more like a realization. Yeah, this is not working for either of us, and now you’re released.

You can maybe go find a friend who does want to hang out more than this

Aimee: And that’s, that’s, exactly it. That, it’s something I wish [00:32:00] I… It’s something I’ve been working on for a long time, I know a number of your guests, including your husband, said, you know, “Go where the heat is.”

Nina: Yes, he did. That, I love that you quoted him. Yes, b- I had an episode with Brian quite a, not that long ago, it was him summarizing the episodes he’d heard, which is ultimately go where the heat is

Aimee: Mm-hmm. And I believe Harlan said that too, you know, go where your people are, the people who have the same amount of time availability or similar. what I am working on, ’cause I, like you say, I’m not an expert, I’m just passionate about the subject. But what I wish I realized sooner and what I’m always working on is it’s much better for me to look for the people who have similar availability and similar priorities to me, rather than hoping that my existing friends upgrade me in availability and priority.

You can’t force somebody to make you a bigger priority in their lives than what they can or want to. that might [00:33:00] hurt, but what I would also encourage somebody to consider when they’re dealing with that hurt is do you really want your friend to be spending time with you anyway if it’s more out of a sense of obligation?

Because I always say I don’t want somebody to be spending time with me because they feel obligated to or if they don’t want to. I, I always say that’s no good for my ego.

Nina: Yeah.

Aimee: keep that in mind as well.

Nina: idea.

Yeah.

Aimee: what’s the point?

Nina: Right.

I think a naysayer might say to that, that there is some obligation in friendship, but I understand what you’re saying. yes, there is to a point. Friendship is a choice. It is not a family relationship. It is a choice, and so if it feels constantly like on one side the person’s just meeting your need and they’re checking a box, this isn’t a match anymore, even if it was at one time

Aimee: Exactly. A- and I think that’s comes up in the context of seasons of friendships. Obviously, a really easy example is [00:34:00] you’re never gonna have as much availability as you do in college when everybody spends a lot of time together. It’s built into the lifestyle. you might notice, of course, “Oh, I don’t spend as much time with this friend as I did back in college,” and that’s just a change of things.

But you also wouldn’t want to try to force that sense of familiarity with a friend that you had when you were seeing them every day for hours on end. It’s not necessarily sustainable. or if you’re in a different place in life than you were before, where there won’t necessarily be that flow of discussion or seeing each other and knowing each other quite as well, you don’t wanna force that either.

I, I don’t think that’s healthy

Nina: When I think of the friendships I have that are still in my life from high school and college, and I have some, it is because we allowed those shifts to happen, and there may have been long periods of time where we just did not talk as much because we don’t live in the same city. But we didn’t end it.

It didn’t need to end. It did need to change, and that space in the [00:35:00] middle allowed for the change. We all have different people in our local lives that we talk to a lot more, and so now we have a long distance friendship, which is different. But yeah, if we tried to force… Like, I can’t talk on the phone every day to anybody.

, I know there are people who do that. I’m not that person. And so, luckily over time they’re not either. But we maintained a very close friendship, but it’s a different friendship. It is not the

Aimee: Evolved.

Nina: Yes.. All right, Amy, I know this was a big piece of your article, and it is a huge issue that comes up when there is a discussion about ending of friendships, and that is, what about the friends you have in common? So many of us have been on both sides of this. So you are someone who’s wanting to end a friendship, somebody wants to end a friendship with you, or you’re the person in the middle of two people having some sort of issue, and it might not even be a clear end.

Usually, I feel like it’s more like we are talking about the beginning, where one friend is dragging another along for a long time, and you’re in the middle, and you kinda know that this

Aimee: Yeah

Nina: [00:36:00] friendship’s over. Friend B maybe doesn’t quite know. And yeah, so what do you have to say about that?

Aimee: So one thing I can’t emphasize enough is I think, and I’ve been guilty of th- of feeling this, I think a lot of us tend to either make mutual friends take sides. I, I haven’t done that, but I think the underlying feeling with that is I think we tend to take whether or not our friends take a side as indicative of justification for our ending the friendship.

So if you and I are both friends with Susie Q, and I’m no longer friends with Susie Q anymore, I consider you not taking my side or you remaining friends with Susie as meaning that I might have been wrong to end my friendship with Susie. And you have to realize that your reasoning for ending a friendship really just all depends on where you’re at and whether or not that relationship still works for you.

It doesn’t have to do with any other friendship, [00:37:00] because all friendships are different. And we should know this inherently in the fact that no two friendships in our lives are the same. So what might bother me might not be an issue for another person who’s friends with someone we have in common.

And you have to be respectful of that and ideally not put mutual friends in the middle. Because remember, if you still value that mutual friend, you don’t want to do that to them. And I think it’s important to remember that, and also like I said, to just keep in mind that also if you make that mutual person choose, you might not get the answer you’re hoping for.

I always say I’m not cocky. I don’t assume that if I made somebody … I don’t wanna make somebody choose in the first place because I’m not looking to be the kind of person here that’s destroying friendships. But that aside, I’m also not cocky. I’m not assuming if I say it’s them or me that they’re gonna choose me,

to be honest, I had one situation where I actually said to a mutual friend, [00:38:00] “Listen, I just want you to know I know you’re a mutual friend. I don’t want you to feel put in the middle of this,” and they actually chose to take a side. So you have to also be prepared for mutual friends to sometimes surprise you in that regard.

But I would emphasize enough to try not to drag other people into your decisions with this one friend

Nina: If you’re friends with two people who are ending a friendship, have ended a friendship, do you think you should do something to help them repair if you see what the issue is? If you’re like, “Okay, if this person would just do this and that person would just do that,” Cause it’s hard on a group when two people aren’t friends.

I could see being tempted to, fix it for everybody

Aimee: I think the best… I mean, again, you can never make people do anything. In fact, I would caution that you can try to, I think you can encourage dialogue. That’s what I would always do. If I, maybe not if it’s at the point of a breakup, but when [00:39:00] friends have told me about issues they’re having with their friends, what I try to do is figure out how can you broach the subject with that friend in a discussion, and I encourage them to talk to them.

That’s, I think, all you can do because I’ve also been in the situation where a mutual friend meant well, and they’ve sort of almost forced the other friend to make an effort, but we know when it’s either disingenuous or half-hearted, and that’s not gonna work. So you have your limits.

Nina: Yeah, it’s back to the obligation feeling and like you can f- you can feel that when you’re on the receiving end of it, that somebody’s,

you know, they’re answering your I miss you text with, “Okay, fine, let’s schedule something.” And it’s like each time feels like you’re pulling teeth.

Aimee: Yes. Does it feel… I was just gonna say, does it feel good?

Nina: doesn’t. Okay, Amy, I could talk to you forever ’cause we have lots of things to talk about, but I think we have discussed this one a good amount, and we’ll take this discussion to our Facebook group that I run but you are such a good [00:40:00] participant of and have been there since the beginning.

You’ve been with me since the beginning. I really appreciate it

Aimee: Oh, thank you, Nina. I appreciate all that you do

Nina: And I will lead listeners to your work in the show notes. They will see where they can find you on social media and things that you’ve written about friendship and otherwise.

As I tell listeners every week, and you know, come back next week when our friendships are going well, we are happier all around.

Aimee: Thank you