Nina: [00:00:00] Welcome to Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship. I am your host, Nina Badzin

today’s topic on sober living is a topic that I have covered before on the podcast only two times. One was way back in episode 17 in 2021 with Jen Varalee, and that one was about dealing with alcoholism as an addiction,

And then what came of her friendships as she got sober. The next one was not until episode 130. That was the sober curious lifestyle and your friendships with Hallie Sawyer. That one has some similarities in theme with today’s episode with guest Suzanne Wayre both in Hallie’s case and then in Suzanne’s case in this episode, they were not dealing with alcoholism as an addiction. This was more of a lifestyle choice to live a sober lifestyle. But it still, as with Jen’s case, had a fallout for their friendships, and not with all their friendships, but it definitely changed their social life.

How could it [00:01:00] not?

it is definitely part of what it means to socialize at a lot of ages, from teenage years on. So I felt it was time again, and Suzanne is most definitely the right guest to have this hard conversation, ’cause she has them all the time.

She’s the host of a podcast called The Sober Mom Life, and her book is called The Sober Shift

Part of what we address in the episode is how alcohol, and we do address weed a little bit too, can become something that stands between you and your friends.

Not because people are fighting about it. That’s not what we’re talking about. There’s no discussion. It’s really more unspoken. That’s what makes it awkward, is people don’t talk about it that much. there can be something awkward about being the only one in a hangout that is totally sober that night or in general.

But even if it’s not in general, even if you’re not making that choice all the time, maybe you’re making that choice that night, that weekend. What does it feel like to be hanging out with people when you’re the only one who isn’t altered in some [00:02:00] way?

And even though it is hard to talk about this topic, I am glad I pushed myself to have this conversation with Suzanne. She’s really lovely, really understanding, and has these conversations all the time. So I am glad that she wanted to have it here with me on Dear Nina

all right, Suzanne. Welcome to Dear Nina.

Suzanne: Thank you for having me. I’m excited.

Nina: this is in some ways a hard topic for me because I’m not a big drinker. I do drink, but not much. so even doing this topic, I, I was almost reluctant because it’s like, I feel like I’m already. Worry that people think I’m judging them or I, you know, I’m the boring one, or, you know, I’m not that fun. So I don’t consider myself sober because it.

Suzanne: yeah.

Nina: It’s not something I’ve had to stay away from. I would love to know about your story. let’s start there with how you came to your book, and not just your book, but your entire body of work that precedes the book.

Suzanne: Yeah. First of all, I [00:03:00] love, that you, took the chance on having the, tough conversations because I love it when someone’s like, yeah, I don’t really know how to talk about this, or how this is gonna be perceived. And I’m always like, yes. That’s great. That’s great that we’re doing it because I think that’s what’s been missing in society overall is being able to talk about drinking, talk about alcohol, especially when we’re drinking it and when we’re not sober.

Not waiting until we’re sober to then talk about it. Right. So thank you for taking the chance and being brave. Yeah, my story’s a little bit different it’s not a big rock bottom story, so I don’t call myself an alcoholic.

I wasn’t actively addicted when I stopped drinking. Instead, my story is really, yes, a party girl in college and in my twenties, and then. Deciding Okay that chapter is done, getting married and having babies and deciding to drink like an adult, Like we do, like we go through those phases and you know, for the most part I [00:04:00] did, I was able to moderate and I hated it.

Moderation really felt like so much mental energy, so many rules, . I was thinking about alcohol even when I wasn’t drinking it. Not that I wanted it. I didn’t drink every day. It just took up too much of my precious brain power and my thoughts, I still didn’t think that I qualified for sobriety.

I had this idea that, you have to lose it all in order to quit drinking and you have to then go to aa and it was, you know, my last hangover was January 19th, 2020, and I had just had my third baby, he was three months old. And it was my first time going out, to a party with my husband since having him.

And it was. The whole mindset was, I deserve this because I have been pregnant. And then nursing I went to a fancy party, had bottomless champagne, no idea how much I [00:05:00] drank, and I blacked out, which I hadn’t done in years. and woke up and realized that I nursed him in the night. I, I don’t remember it, but I had to have, because he was three months old.

There was just no way. He slept through the night and I woke up at 10:00 AM which if you have a newborn, you know, is an ungodly hour. just, something hit me in like a moment of clarity that I was like, oh, I’m done. I’m not doing this anymore. I had no idea what that meant. And what would come from that.

But I just knew, I didn’t want to try to make this work anymore. I was just done. And then from then on, yeah, I, I talk about it on the podcast and I write about it in the book, kind of what happened after that. I mean, not only a pandemic, but everything that came next.

Nina: Well, I know it’s in the book, but could you go a little more into what happened next? Like in terms of, especially, you know, in this show we are very interested in what happened to your friendships, , I assume there was a lot of socializing [00:06:00] around alcohol.

Suzanne: Like with everything, right? when I, think that that idea kept me. Stuck in thinking, well, there’s no way I can’t not drink. I don’t know anybody who’s sober. None of my friends are sober. I live in the Midwest. I’m from Wisconsin. We grew up thinking that alcohol is essential for everything, and especially socializing and connecting and friendships, That was one of the huge questions. I mean, I had many questions when I decided that I was done, but one of them really was, what is this going to do am I gonna be a social pariah now because all of my friends do drink? You know, it’s very interesting. Looking back, we did have then COVID and the subsequent pandemic and in kind of an imposed hibernation period for me.

I didn’t have social pressure. I really didn’t have to figure out how I’m going to present this thing to my friends, how it’s going to affect us [00:07:00] because nothing was happening. I was home, right. I also had a newborn. I had a two and a half year old and a 5-year-old.

social stuff was kind of on pause anyway for me. And this was really a gift to be able to really just focus on that. It’s interesting though. How much, and I, and I didn’t realize this before I quit drinking, but I realized it soon after was just how much we don’t talk about alcohol, about drinking.

I had no idea how much my friends were drinking, how much they thought about their drinking, if they thought about their drinking. even my best friend of, since we were baby babies, she actually, I was probably. Maybe not even a month sober. And she sent me a text and she said, I want you to listen to or read.

We are the Luckiest by Laura McOwen. I quit drinking in December and I thought you might like it. And I was like, she didn’t know I had quit drinking.

Nina: Oh.

Suzanne: and we tell each other [00:08:00] everything, right? We tell each other. she knows everything about me, but this one thing was off limits. She didn’t tell me she quit drinking because she didn’t want.

Me to think that she was going to judge me, And I didn’t tell her I quit drinking because I wasn’t ready. I thought I would have to have it all figured out and kind of present it in a neat package. And so this one thing was off limits, even between best friends of 40 years, it just highlights really how much we’re not talking about it.

once I started, the world opened back up I started to be social again. I think the hard part is that part of what I was worrying about and losing friends and not being invited came true.

Nina: Okay, good. Let’s go there. I don’t mean good that that happened, but I mean, it needs to be addressed.

Suzanne: I’ve spoken with hundreds and hundreds of women about. Deciding to quit drinking.

And, and you know, there is this thing where we always feel like we need permission. well, can my husband [00:09:00] do it with me? Can my partner do it with me? Is a friend going to join me? And really being able to say, no, this is my, this is my thing. This is for me. Almost the next thing she says is, well, what if, I lose friends?

And my response is, you might, I have perspective now at over six years sober that I didn’t have then, of course. I think that losing friendships, my closest friends of course remained my closest friends. Nothing can break those.

Those are tried and true. They’ve been tested in other ways and they. don’t care what’s in my cup, even if they’re drinking. The peripheral friends and like the maybe more acquaintances or maybe if drinking was the only thing we had in common, that we would meet up for a glass of wine.

Not necessarily for the, sparkling conversations or for the connection. That becomes pretty clear I guess not only if people prioritize you as a friend, but what [00:10:00] they prioritize.

Nina: And I would say how they’re able to connect. ’cause that’s a big part of what I know we’re gonna talk about is the use of. I’d say alcohol and weed. You know that, too, and all the THC drinks and all the things that are out there now, there’s like so many extra ways and easy ways to have some sort of barrier between you and the other person

Suzanne: it’s interesting because when I was drinking, I thought alcohol was like the fast track to connection. That goes back to the first time I drank that I was like, okay, good, we can get, drunk or we can get a little tipsy and then like really bear our souls and connect.

Except then I just ended up doing that with like the bathroom attendant at the nightclub, right. And then she’d be like. What’s your name again? And I was like, no. Like we’re best friends now. And she’s like, I don’t know you. And then of course the shame spiral that follows yeah. So when we have been taught that alcohol helps us connect, of course, then we’re gonna look to alcohol to help us connect.

And from someone who is not [00:11:00] drinking, I think we do look at it like. it is hard to connect with someone who has been drinking. you do see they change, they start repeating themselves, they talk loud or that it’s just not the same sort of connection that we get when we’re not drinking, when we’re meeting over coffee, even though that can feel awkward.

And I think part of the thing that I love about my sobriety is leaning into. Feeling awkward and maybe a little scared and think it reminds me of being 1415 Hey, do you wanna, have coffee with me? Yes. No, maybe like, check the box, right? Because we’re all kind of stumbling through this thing, especially friendship at 45.

how do we make friends without This connective thing that we thought was gonna help, which maybe doesn’t.

Nina: It’s like a numbing of sorts, right? It does. It makes it so you don’t, I mean, not just of sorts. That’s exactly what it is. You don’t have to Yeah. Feel the awkwardness. it’s easier.[00:12:00]

Suzanne: It’s easier and it’s, interesting because, it’s the social anxiety and then we drink to help with social anxiety when really, I think everyone has social anxiety. Every woman I’ve talked to has social anxiety, and so if we could all just meet at the party and be like, Hey, can we feel awkward for 10 minutes until we realize that we’re safe and everything’s okay and we’re not gonna burst into flames?

And I’m nervous and it’s okay. Instead of then drinking to kind of help , with this discomfort maybe saying something that we didn’t mean to say or divulging a secret that we never would have, or just acting in a way that we wouldn’t act if we didn’t drink.

And then the anxiety that follows us then into the next day, into the next week. with the shame of all of, I talk a lot about shame that comes with alcohol. And so instead just kind of awkwardly going into a party or going into a function, actually I realized this last year.

‘ cause all of my friends drink my friends in real [00:13:00] life. I say in real life

Nina: I know exactly. Makes sense and not your Facebook

Suzanne: Yes. Not my people. I have a membership my everyday real life. We were in New Orleans and everyone was drinking of course, and it was fine. My husband and I were the only ones who weren’t, I had a friend who I’ve known for almost 20 years, and she was drunk and she just kept saying, I’m not an alcoholic.

You know, kind of trying to, convinced me that she’s okay. it struck me. Then on that trip I was like, oh, it’s a very vulnerable thing. For someone to drink in front of a sober person,

Nina: I am sure it is.

Suzanne: it, I think in sobriety we tend to look at it like, I’m not invited because, you know, I’m sober now and I’m the one left out and They’re not comfortable around me. Instead of really maybe through a lens of compassion, like, maybe they just wanna drink and not have someone with clear eyes There. Which is understandable, And whatever the reason that invites might [00:14:00] decrease you’re not invited to places that you might have been before.

There is a part in sobriety that it’s sad and you feel the loss, you feel the quieter. Maybe the group texts aren’t, you’re not in the group texts anymore. You’re not being invited to all of the moms things as much as you were. I remember, my friend told me she, and this is a good friend, but not a best friend or anything, and she, I don’t know what, what his best friend, good friend, best friend.

I don’t

Nina: there’s, oh, there’s all kinds of words there’s a whole universe of just good friend

Suzanne: It’s funny that we have to like qualify Anyway, so she had her 40th birthday party in Mexico of as an aside to me, she was like, I didn’t invite you ’cause you wouldn’t wanna come, we’re gonna be drinking. I was like, wow.

and I think what she doesn’t get is that I don’t care what they do. I, can be around drinking people. I’m just looking at it like, Hey, cool, let’s go to Mexico. I would love going to Mexico and not [00:15:00] drinking because it’s the best.

Nina: So you feel like you can be around people who are drinking, which is that what separates what we would say like sober lifestyle from actual addiction.

Suzanne: I’m not sure where the differentiation is there. I think that I have spent the last like six and a half years focusing on freedom in sobriety and I think. Instead of this kind of old school way of inviting alcohol into sobriety and saying , I can’t drink and, and really still focusing on alcohol, I have worked very hard to make sure that I don’t see drinking as a privilege.

And I truly, don’t, and I don’t see sobriety as a punishment and something I’m missing out on. It would be the same thing if, I was, somewhere and everyone was smoking a cigarette and, and I’d be like, no, I’m good. You guys can, I mean, it stinks, but,

Nina: It is like you don’t identify as a smoker. Like you don’t

identify as,

Suzanne: don’t want to. I don’t wanna do [00:16:00] that. way that I’ve kind of done my sobriety and how I’ve structured it, I think is, can be very different for people who are only used to the, AA one day at a time. Like I do not take my sobriety one day at a time.

It’s not a decision I have to make every day when I wake up. I always say I’m sober for good and that’s for the good of everything, for the good of my mental health, physical health relationships. I think it’s important to talk about yes, feeling the grief of losing some friends because probably will, but.

Sobriety is like a colander for me. It’s been a sifting through and when that gold is left behind first you’re like, oh, wow, look at these people who support me and respect my decision and really show me love and this very special way, and they still drink, And they can do that.

but also it’s made room then for friendships in sobriety and friendships. with people who have made the same [00:17:00] decision. I did. And that’s a really cool thing when you kind of get to start fresh in a friendship they don’t know my baggage. They’ve only known me as someone who doesn’t drink.

, That feels very cool. it is kind of a reinvention, which is really cool in midlife.

Nina: It’s a good way to think of it. There’s things you’re gonna lose and then there’s what you’ve gained. It seems like you’ve gained a lot more in, not just on friendships, but in all kinds of things.

Where are you seeing, like in this work you’re doing and in, it’s like not just your life, but you, you are also in contact with so many people through your work who are going through the same thing either. Far along or they’re just at the beginning of this kind of journey, where do you see drugs fitting into it?

The whole scene?

Suzanne: Yeah. I love this question because I think this is now something that I’m seeing it’s kind of following the alcohol path. okay, we’ll talk about alcohol, but don’t talk about THC. Right? And like, yeah. But gummies are fine. My whole goal why I wrote the [00:18:00] book and what we talk about in my membership and on my podcast is if sobriety is, if the goal is to help you understand, number one, how you feel, and then you can get to what you need, which that sounds very simple, and it’s not when we’ve been drinking our entire adult lives and we’ve probably never learned to do those two things we’ve probably never learned.

How we feel, which feels, it sounds pretty incredible, but it’s true. Like, wait, I don’t, know how I’m feeling. And then to then answer what do I need? when it’s not a glass of wine, right? What, do I need? What is gonna help me? Anything that gets in the way of that and thwarts that progress of figuring that out.

can be an issue, And I think THC is being positioned as this lesser evil maybe. I always wanna be clear that if there’s a woman who’s really wants to quit drinking and she also does [00:19:00] gummies and she wants to focus on the alcohol first, I think that that’s a really smart move, I think that’s the beast to tackle first, the gummies should be looked at as the next thing. Not quite yet, who knows when, but the next thing to tackle, because it still is, it’s a highly addictive substance

Nina: It’s

still numbing. It’s still.

a thing standing between you and the next person. It is.

Suzanne: Yes. It, it completely is.

And you’re still, yeah. You’re using, and you know, I’ve spoken with many women who have come to this realization on their own, because I think they are being targeted right now. THC drinks are really, targeting sober women. Like, oh good, you don’t drink, well drink this. Instead, wait, you still want us numb you still want us addicted?

You just want us addicted to your thing. they do start to notice the patterns they had when they were drinking, whether that’s thinking about it in the morning, making a plan that they’re [00:20:00] not gonna use, a gummy tonight. And then as the day wears on it, it starts sound like a better idea or like hiding, I’m gonna go do this in my closet and then come out.

Right. Or, yeah. Lying about, well, yeah, I didn’t have. I don’t know. I’ve never done a gummy, I don’t know the, portions, but, all of these behaviors start to feel very familiar. And then she comes to it on her own

this is just a different substance that I’m doing that isn’t allowing me to connect with not only myself, but yeah, those around me.

Nina: It really speaks to me this being able to answer for yourself, how do I feel and what do I need?

Suzanne: Yes. It sounds so simple and it’s so, I mean, it’s my life’s work, It’s not a thing that we’re just oh yeah, I conquered that. now I can figure out how I feel what I need. It’s literally our life’s work and. if you started drinking. I started drinking when I was 15 years old. We’ve never had to answer those [00:21:00] questions.

It’s been answered for us right in the drink. This, you’re fine. Drink this. Be quiet. you’re not gonna feel anything, for shame tomorrow or whatever’s gonna follow you. and it’s a messy process, And it can feel wrong. It can feel, overwhelming when we start feeling angry in sobriety oh my God, but I’ve been taught not to be angry.

Something’s wrong. How do I stop this anger? you follow it. You don’t stop it. Sadness. I mean, there’s a lot of grief, there’s a lot of crying in your car, cry, oh my god, cry. there’s a lot of emotions that come up because we’re making up for a lot of lost time and we’re just trying to figure this out.

It’s like learning the language of ourselves really.

Nina: There, you know, there’s one, , because I’m not such a big drinker, like I don’t relate in that, but I relate in a different way, which is sometimes when I am either with people or if I’m by myself and it’s like maybe I run into something hard, a hard thought [00:22:00] or it’s happens a lot when I’m working on my own and I’m like, oh, this is like a hard process.

The first thing I do is pick up my phone.

And it’s like that, it’s that dopamine hit of the Instagram and all that, I relate to it in that way, for real. it’s a thing that is standing between, or it’s like a process and it’s a different kind of addiction that is standing between me and having to feel something, whether it’s, oh, this is, you know, this episode’s so hard to edit.

Or, you know, I’m writing something and I’m having a hard time where I have to answer an email that I just don’t feel like it, it’s a distraction it’s its own numbing, but it is an issue. Among people hanging out together. if I have one complaint and I’m part of it too, so I am really trying not to like throw stones.

It’s the amount that we all pick up our phone like we could be away for a weekend and that. , Phone is never not

part of it.

Suzanne: I know. And you don’t drink a lot, And so once you remove alcohol, you do start to notice other habits, other ways you’re escaping. ways you’re numbing or disconnecting. Oh yeah, okay. I’m seeing [00:23:00] this as a pattern.

I noticed early on in sobriety, yeah, I would pick my phone up at a stoplight . At a stoplight. let me get out of this. What? Boredom and, yeah. I always, there’s a lot of boredom that comes up in sobriety, There’s a lot of hold on, what do I like to do? ’cause. I don’t know.

’cause the, when alcohol’s in the picture, you don’t have to answer that question because drinking is the thing, you take that out, what do you like to do? part of that does require being bored and like, great. Be bored. It’s like when my kids come up to me they’re like, I’m bored.

They know 100% of the time. I’ll say, , well that’s amazing. you’re gonna go create something pretty cool because your brain’s gonna start working. You’re gonna start yes, go be bored. Think about when we were, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15.

What did we do? When we were bored, that’s when we got creative and when we figured out what we wanna do, we went to play outside. I don’t know, getting back in touch with her, [00:24:00] with me when I was little. What did she like to do when she came home from school? where I’m trying to, I’m trying to bring her.

back into being 45 teach me, teach me what we did. Teach me what we like to do.

Nina: When you, are talking to the women in your community, is there, are there any other friendship things that come up that we haven’t already covered?

Suzanne: , it’s very interesting because when we are the ones who stop drinking and we see this, I don’t know if you watch reality tv.

Nina: I

Suzanne: I watch a lot of

Nina: but not reality tv, if you can believe it.

Suzanne: I

watch a

lot of other

tv,

You do? Okay. I love the Housewives. I don’t know.

It’s a fascinating study in definitely friendships. and when one person stops drinking, we tend to , have both sides of the conversation. We tend to assume how our friends are going to react. We tend to. temper what we wanna say or temper like, oh, no, no, no, it’s not a big deal.

Or instead of presenting this thing, like, this is actually really [00:25:00] important to me. Let me catch you up on how drinking made me feel and how it made me doubt myself. instead we say, oh, I think she’s gonna think I’m judging her. we have both sides You know, it is true that when we quit drinking, we are holding up a mirror to, other people and we absorb a lot of that as, as sober people.

it’s interesting that some friends will just not wanna talk about it. Not discuss it. I am not gonna ask you questions. I’m not gonna acknowledge. I’ll say, oh, you’re still doing that. Okay, moving on quickly. Moving on. No eye contact with that monster because, , they’re not ready to talk about, they don’t wanna deal with their relationship with alcohol.

other friends. We’ll say, oh, come on. Like are you still doing this? can’t you have a drink? And that’s kind of what we’re always on guard for is what are we gonna say if someone questions this? I will say, that’s [00:26:00] pretty rare. That’s

Nina: Yeah, I bet it doesn’t. I mean, people are adults, right? they assume you get to make your own decisions.

Suzanne: I will say once the drinks start flowing,

that’s generally when that happens, is when it’s Come on, can you, , there’s definitely still peer pressure in our forties, which is wild. and then there are just others who are like, yeah, this is, I’m just so proud of you this isn’t for me, but I would do that.

And so it’s just interesting and, we always talk in the cafe about, you know, every person’s reaction to, our sobriety, It’s really about them and their relationship with alcohol that is something that we kind of have to build an armor around this is our thing.

This isn’t their thing. We don’t need permission, we don’t need anyone to join us. It’s okay if they don’t understand. , my goal is just to be able, always to talk about it honestly, and that we’re not out there judging, judging everyone who’s drinking who wants to be with those people, right?

Nina: Yes. [00:27:00] Again, I relate to this on the phone thing because I talk about it a lot on the show. I will make a point when I’m out to lunch with somebody or on a walk. I do not take my phone out. I actually am pretty good about it because I’m so aware of the distraction that it is, and then people will say to me they feel like they have to apologize to me or they have to explain to me.

I, it’s really a lot like the alcohol thing. I mean, they will. Say like, oh, I’m sorry, I’m, I have my phone out because, and they’ll gimme any reason and I feel like how you feel about the alcohol.

I’m doing it for me so that I’m not distracted. So that’s on you. If you’re half in this walk, there’s nothing I can do about it. That’s your choice.

Suzanne: And it depends on the level of friendship, But really having those open conversations about hey, If you drink, that’s totally fine. I definitely had to do this with my husband when he was still drinking.

He’s now over two years sober. But with those very important people that you value and, I think having a conversation like, Hey, connection. [00:28:00] With you is really important to me. when you’re drunk, when you’re drinking, I just don’t feel like I can have that connection with you.

Can we go for coffee instead of drinks tonight? whatever that is. And really, just talking about. Connection is the most important thing here. And that is another thing that changes in sobriety is that our bar is pretty high then, when the alcohol’s no longer the draw, when it’s like, oh, I’m gonna go with these women, you know, the moms in my, kids’ class, because I’ll be able to drink when that doesn’t sound appealing anymore.

The connection and the people. the importance of that gets even higher. And so the bar is higher for who we wanna spend time with and

Nina: I love that. That is such a good point. Yeah. The bar’s higher. You have to be able to sit through a meal.

Really? All there. You have to be. You have to be all

Suzanne: Yes. I would like you to drink coffee with me make time in the morning [00:29:00] for me instead of a, drinks night. You know what I mean? and I think that’s okay to say. I think as women we, we try to like, oh no, it’s okay.

or if you want, it’s fine. No, this is your time. This is your energy. and that’s the most precious thing is busy women. we don’t have a lot of it, if I’m gonna spend time with you,, I want to be connected. I want it to feel meaningful and fun For me, just alcohol isn’t there, you know, this is for like my, great friends and, . It’s worked out well, we’ve found other ways to spend time than sitting around drinking wine,

Nina: In the past six years? Have you been to weddings and other, large events? how does that feel

Suzanne: I love it. First of all, yes, weddings. Everything is fun until 10. Okay, EV?

Yes. Yes. Everything is fun until 10 o’clock and then by 10 o’clock it gets annoying because, I’m fine, like [00:30:00] being around people who are drinking and it’s fine. And. It is very interesting to see alcohol with clear eyes.

Generally, as an adult, we don’t do that. Pregnancy doesn’t count because we’re kind of looking at it being like, oh, I wish I could drink. Anything after 10 o’clock people are just kind of lunatics and annoying and sweaty and loud so I’m gonna go home. it’s all good. It’s all fun. you can dance, you, you eat good food, you talk to people. And then at 10 o’clock I skedaddle

Nina: ‘ I’d say the last thing I wanna talk about with you and then we’ll wrap it up. we haven’t talked about the motherhood piece of your work at all. And it’s funny ’cause you know, you have three kids, I have four kids, there’s a lot of kids between us, but I know I have a lot of listeners who don’t have kids, so I, I try to never lead with that.

but that is part of what you talk about. That was part of your inspiration, I assume, is like the way you showed up with your kids?

Suzanne: Oh, for sure. You know, I think that there’s a very specific shame that comes with drinking [00:31:00] in motherhood, especially if you’re drinking history includes getting drunk in front of your kids or somehow you alcohol affecting your motherhood. I take a lot of care with those conversations with the women who I work with because, it is a very tough thing, especially when moms are targeted to drink more than ever right now. And we are really, you know, in the crosshairs of big alcohol and mommy wine culture is alive and well. And moms are really, convinced that alcohol is essential to survive motherhood and to survive our kids.

Nina: And making friends with other moms.

Suzanne: Yes, And making friends with other moms. the heartbreaking part is that moms have real needs we are, still 100% people, even when we’re moms with 100% needs, That are 100% important. And when alcohol is in the picture, when we are. convinced to drink in order to deal with the stressors of motherhood.

Our [00:32:00] needs aren’t being met. And we can feel that. my whole goal, with the book, and the book isn’t just for moms, but is, is really to allow moms a place to work through that shame that comes with drinking and to be able to say the hard stuff, to work through it. And then, to learn what she actually needs and that.

The mom she was when she was drinking isn’t her as a mom. That was the alcohol she is exactly the mom. Her kids need and alcohol can just get in the way of that.

Nina: . That’s well said.

Suzanne: And, and my book is about saying oh, no.

can’t get in between moms and our kids and we are smarter than that. And look at us. Go.

Nina: Ah, that’s great. Oh my God. Suzanne, thank you so much for sharing your story. So honestly, I’ll have all the different ways people can find you in the show notes because you have quite a, a world of podcasts and communities and substack and, and you

Suzanne: Oh my God. I know. I’m so tired. Well, thank you for having me though. For real. This is great.

Nina: listeners, thank you for being here. Happy to continue the [00:33:00] conversation over at the Facebook group at Dear Nina, the group. I always have something a little extra to say about any topic I do on substack. the rhythm I usually do that is that I have an episode, , I release it and.

I just sort of let it sit for a couple days and then I reflect a little further in my newsletter.

And that’s at dear nina.substack.com.

I hope you enjoyed this episode. Come back next week when our friendships are going well. We are happier all around. Bye.