Nina: [00:00:00] Welcome to Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship. I am your host, Nina Badzin.

Today’s topic is a guide to confronting a friend, and this doesn’t have to be a big confrontation. It can be something small that by confronting it, dealing with it… Confronting’s such a strong word, too. I don’t mean, and my guest, who we’ll get to in a moment, doesn’t mean have a big, drawn out, long sit-down, although that may be what’s needed sometimes.

It could even just be a little comment like, “Ooh, hey, that went a little too far,” which even something like that, even a little bit of a redirect like that can be really hard for a lot of people. And so we talk about how to have a conversation you might have been avoiding. It’s a guide to confronting a friend, even in these small ways, and an honest conversation about whether to bring something up at all or just to move on with this issue, and not move on from the friendship.

That’s not what either of us advocate. I am talking to Jewel [00:01:00] Homan, who really is a fan of the show. I loved it. She named so many other episodes during our conversation. And she has a lot of experience on her own of speaking about friendship, educating others about friendship, coaching.

She has done nearly 6,000 hours of coaching focused on high-functioning social anxiety and friendship.

She is the director of programming for PS Society, which is a nonprofit dedicated to combating loneliness for women, and she’s in her final year of earning her master’s in social work with the goal of opening the first social prescribing clinic in the Detroit area. And she talks a lot in this episode about her own personal friendship struggles and what led her to do the work she does.

I love this chart Jewel has on her website for how to confront a friend. Jewel can talk about any number of things having to do with friendship, but I wanted to talk about this one because she has this framework for knowing how to confront a friend when, if.

That if is a big one too. Let’s get into it

Hi, Jewel. Welcome to Dear Nina.

Jewel: Hi, Nina. Oh my [00:02:00] gosh. So excited to be here

Nina: i’ve thought so many times how much this episode is needed, we have to decide how to have a conversation you’ve been avoiding and whether to have that conversation. Before we get into all of that, can you explain exactly what you do and where you are at in this part of your career?

Jewel: Just like you, friendship and connection has been, my whole world. It’s the thing that I can’t stop learning about, thinking about, and it’s because I really, really struggled with social anxiety and loneliness growing up. in my, early 20s, I was like, “I need to figure this out.

And I dove in. I was telling you earlier that your podcast, has been an inspiration for me. when you had Anna Goldfarb, Shasta Nelson, I was, like, fan-girling too. It was so cool. I can’t believe I’m here. Okay. so my background was I just wanna figure this out for me, myself and I.

And then what happened, which was really interesting, is people started reaching out to me and they were like, “Dude, how did you make all of these friends? I don’t understand. Where’d you [00:03:00] even meet these people? Can I come? Can I come? Can I come? Can I come?” I was hearing that all the time. and then people were also saying to me too, ’cause again, like the social anxiety piece, “Jewel, you seem like so much more comfortable with yourself.”

from there I just decided for fun, because I just enjoy the topic so much okay, I’ll do some coaching here and there on this topic. It ended up turning into a whole career, I loved it. I did it full time for five and a half years maybe even a little bit longer I worked with people from all over the world, and this topic in particular on confronting friends, whether or not to confront friends, is also a topic that I have been stewing on this entire time because people are so unique and different, and that’s one thing that I wanted from this framework, is for people to allow their desires, their unique desires, their unique, friendship dynamics to play a role.

Like, I wanted it to be useful, but also where people can then decide what’s right for them, which we’ll get to in a second. I learned [00:04:00] about something called social prescribing, which Nina has a podcast with Julia Hotz on social prescribing, so, you know, maybe queue that one up when you’re done listening to this one.

But that blew me away and I just realized, , oh, I can make connection so much more accessible and really invest back into the community. So I decided to go back to school, which is why my schedule has been nearly impossible. And now I work full time in the field ’cause I’m in the process of finishing up school, getting my therapy license.

And so now I work full time running group therapy for kids, teens and adults where connection truly is at the center of the therapy.

Nina: Fantastic. I love that you took it all the way from your real life to now it is your vocation. I- I actually am thinking in the heads of my listeners and especially the people who are in my Facebook group, Dear Nina, the group where a lot of these issues of [00:05:00] social anxiety come up, even though this isn’t our topic per se.

Are there a couple things that stand out? Like when people would come to you more in your 20s and say You seem so much more comfortable,” “How’d you do it? How’d you meet these friends?” Are there a couple things that stand out from that time that you could share with the listeners?

Jewel: some people like Dr. Ellen Hendriksen was super helpful for me during that time. She has written books about social anxiety. But one thing she has said that has really stuck out to me is that the root of social anxiety is often shame. I really confronted the things that I felt ashamed of, and that freed me so much.

, I enjoyed myself so much more. And then when you enjoy yourself more, you can enjoy other people more and enjoy conversations, and you’re not worried as much about am I saying the right thing at the right time in the right way? That is truly what really helped me I would say at that time,

I mean, of course, there’s so much more to it, but to give, the most powerful nugget I can, I would say, learning how to accept yourself [00:06:00] and be compassionate with those tender parts of you, I think is just so huge

Nina: Oh, that was so beautifully said, and Dr. Marisa Franco, who has been on the podcast, has a book called Worth. It’s a follow-up to her book, Platonic, and it’s about exactly what you just said. You can have all this friendship advice and all this experience and all these ideas, but without that sense of self-worth, it’s very hard to take any of it into action, and she has a lot of exercises in there, so I’ll have that in the show notes. And you’ve seen that in your own life, so that’s great

so let’s get to our topic of the day, you have this interesting framework for deciding when, how, and if to confront a friend, and I just wanna hear more about it.

I’m gonna really give you the mic for a while, and I’ll interrupt with my own questions as we go

Jewel: Absolutely. this, again, like I said earlier, was born out of years of working with clients. love clear frameworks, which is why I’m such a fan of your podcast. And so I wanted to [00:07:00] create something for my clients, and honestly had been stewing on this for a very, very long time. That said, , every human’s different, and so every relationship is different.

Every friendship is different. some of these things are really going to help bring clarity to you, and then some of the questions might not, and that’s totally fine. That’s okay. I do wanna say, too, the reason why I created this guide for confronting friends, and the reason why I was interested in the topic, is because as we have heard from experts, and experts on your show, I can’t remember which one, I’m so sorry.

But female friendships tend to be more fickle than male friendships, one thing I notice, so this is my observation from working with so many people, is that women were really having a hard time just confronting their friends about, in my opinion, small little things. it was eroding at their sense of connection, at their sense of trust in the friendship itself.

[00:08:00] And so I created this guide not to be like, ” Here’s how to confront your friends. Have a serious sit-down where, you know, tension’s high, and we’re super firm and serious.” No, no, no, no, no. I created this guide because confrontation is truly an investment in the friendship, I’m not going to confront somebody and spend my, energy and, you know, my vulnerability and my heart to somebody where I don’t want to, at the end of that conversation, hopefully to feel closer with, have built more trust, and deepen that bond.

one thing that we know and that we hear, well, that I’ve heard all the time from Shasta Nelson in her work with friendimacy, is that when we talk about the relationship itself, when we talk about the friendship itself, what makes us feel connected, that that’s one of the highest forms of vulnerability, right?

So it really, really deepens those bonds. So anyway, that was my intention with this guide. That said, as you go through the guide, you might decide, “Okay, this [00:09:00] friendship is not right for me. I am going to completely take a step back, that’s fine. Or you might decide, ” I am going to deprioritize this friendship and going to prioritize other relationships instead.”

Again, I am not here to give you the answer. I just wanna give you a framework of questions that allow you to stop that spinning in your head of like, “Do I do this? Do I not?” that allows you to get some clarity, and then hopefully, allows you to feel a little bit more comfortable connecting so that way you can invest into the friendship.

Nina: That’s great. I see a lot of obviously information that comes directly to me from people asking about whether to confront a friend, but I’ll see stuff on social media. I just ran across something on Threads. For those of you who don’t know what Threads is, it’s owned by Instagram, Facebook.

It’s kind of like Twitter, how Twitter was. And so it’s quick conversations, and it’s really mostly people talking to strangers. It’s really not a place I see people connecting with friends per se.

Somebody wrote on there [00:10:00] recently , it was like the universe knew I was going to be talking to you this week. She was saying that she’s about to give up on a friendship because she texted a friend of hers that she was still mourning the loss of, I think, one of her parents, and She seemed to be maybe about in her 30s or 40s. She just had reached out to her friend to say, “I’m feeling blue today.” Maybe it was even her birthday. Like, “I’m not feeling great today. I’m missing my mom or my dad,” whoever it was. And the friend did not respond. And then within the same text chat with that person, two months later, the friend was like, ” what are you doing this weekend?

Love to go out.” And the person writing the thread was like, ” I’m done with this friendship. She hasn’t even responded to the text above, she’s being so passive-aggressive,” blah, blah. And then people were f- arguing within the thread over who was the one being passive-aggressive people were calling her out to be like, “Wait, Did you tell your friend?” Listen, before we talk about what the plans might be this weekend, if you scroll up, you’ll see that I reached out a couple months ago when I was feeling blue, [00:11:00] and you never responded. My guess would be, and I tend to, like, assume the best, I guess. It’s how I get through life, that the friend didn’t see the text.

why would you automatically assume I’m done with this friendship. This person hates me. They didn’t respond.” If you have a good friend that is such a good friend that you felt comfortable enough to be like, “I’m feeling really blue today,” I have to assume they had some friendship basis for a text like that.

I would assume my friend didn’t see my text, not this is a horrible friend. If it’s a thing that’s happened before, yeah, you should say something. “Hey, I’m really disappointed.” It’s okay to say, “I was really hurt that I didn’t hear from you when I reached out like that.”

there’s a place for picking up the phone, by the way,

and not having all of this by text. But I was glad to see… Not that– I, I don’t want anyone attacking this woman on Threads, and I didn’t respond at all. I was glad to see the world out there not immediately being like, “Yeah, she’s a terrible friend, you’re right.”

That some people were kinda like, ” Okay, there’s some personal responsibility to you not saying what you need and what you were upset about and forcing someone to read your mind.” So that was just something I thought it was good to have, like, a scenario in mind [00:12:00] as we go forward.

Jewel: Yes, e- exactly. And so well said too, because like you said, the meaning behind it really matters. And so many of us, right, like we have been hurt. We, have, if you will, insecure attachment styles, things along those lines that can really play a role. And so that was another reason why I created this guide, because we can add so much more meaning to all of these things.

Whereas the meaning you would assign that situation is Oh, she didn’t see it,” Whereas it sounds like for, this woman on Threads was adding all of this other meaning that was really making it a tender spot for her. And kind of l- leads me to the first step here which is to really ask yourself What is actually bothering me?

What is going on here?” And again, I’m, this isn’t like a one-size-fits-all, but I find that, when we’re identifying what’s going on that so often it could be one of these three things that’s, , really bothering us.

So the first one being, there’s an unmet need, I want to feel appreciated. I wanna [00:13:00] feel included, and I’m not. we might be hurt about, an unmet need that is going on. We might also feel like a boundary has been crossed, so that’s the second one. okay, this feels like it’s crossing a line for me, even if they didn’t mean it, So, like, maybe they’re making a joke that, they’re thinking is very playful, and for you, you’re like, ” no, that feels like it’s crossing a line.” Or it might just be like, okay, there was a little moment of irritation. this, like, rubbed me the wrong way and I’m just, , a little irritated about it.

. I find that it’s normally one of those three things that were coming up for people. And so identifying that can be really helpful because, again, you can assign so much meaning to all of these things.

Like, oh, it’s because they don’t care, so on and so on, when in reality we can just ask ourselves like, “Okay, do I have an unmet need here? Do I have a boundary that I feel like is being crossed, or is there, like, just like a little moment of irritation that is happening?” the last one, the irritation, I wanna give an example of that ’cause [00:14:00] sometimes I find that people can struggle with that one.

for irritation, people are all gonna do things Differently. I have a friend who’s coming to my mind who I absolutely love, and we are so different. this friend, right, they might do things differently compared to me, and it’s not impacting me, it’s not impacting my life. It’s all about them.

And I’m just like, “Ugh, oh my goodness. little irritating.” But that’s the price of close, meaningful bonds is sometimes feeling a little irritated with people like that. Another example that happened actually with a client a few weeks ago And no shade, these are not my opinions, and also this client’s wonderful.

But that she really hates the show Love Island, and she feels like, like she has all these opinions about why she hates it. She doesn’t feel like it’s conducive in many ways. she found herself, , feeling irritated that her friend was, like, pushing to watch it with her so much. So really just like a small little irritation in that way.

Now, with these little [00:15:00] definitions here, needs and boundaries I find often really feel like they need a voice. And then irritation sometimes just need, like, a little moment to, like, process or rest. the next question that I have for that, so like identifying, okay, what’s going on? What’s bothering me?

Is the follow-up question after that is, is this a pattern or a one-time thing?

Nina: Yes, such an important question. It really is. we can’t jump all over everybody for one-time things

Jewel: And again, that’s the price of meaningful, beautiful, life-giving friendships where you make so many memories and you, think about them when you’re on your death bed, right? Like, that’s the price of that is having these little moments where people irritate you or cross a boundary or maybe don’t meet a need.

So asking yourself, like, “Okay, is this a pattern or a one time thing?” Could it just been, like, a little misunderstanding? , Or is it, the fourth, fifth [00:16:00] time something similar has happened? That’s good to get clarity on. the next question I would follow that up with is, am I going to still care about this in a week or two?

if you’re like, “Okay, I really don’t think this is going to bother me in, like, a week or two. I’m not gonna be spending mental energy thinking about it” then it could just be a passing annoyance that feels a little bit smaller after you’ve rested.

So will I still care about this in a week? if you do end up still caring about it in a week and, or two, and you’re still replaying that moment several times, it can feel heavier and, that lingering tension is a sign that whatever’s going on, this is important to you

Nina: another thing I was thinking that is important to consider, is this gonna still be bothering me? Like, how important…

If it really is important and it’s gonna affect the relationship, the answer is yes. You have to bring it up. It’s time to bring it up, and we haven’t gotten to the how yet. We’ll deal with that later. We’re still on [00:17:00] the if, which I think is important. if it’s an unmet need, I think it’s only fair to first look into yourself and make sure it’s an appropriate need ‘ I really see that a lot., We’re upset at our friends for not meeting a need that wasn’t fair to put on them in the first place, and it’s just something to consider, when you’re thinking about that one piece of it. And just, just because you need to be included in everything in order to feel good about you doesn’t mean your friend should be required to include you in everything.

I mean, that’s just… Including is just one example. It could be many examples. Unless it’s, like, this pattern where they’re trying to leave you out, let’s say, all the time. But If the issue is that your friend has other friends that’s hard for you, That’s an inside job.

Unless it’s egregious. It’s like you kinda don’t know it until you see it, and it’s hard to talk about it theoretically. But

yeah. Anyway, that… I just… That came to mind

Jewel: Yeah, no, it’s absolutely, I have this in the, guide as well, but it’s absolutely really important to think about that need. I had [00:18:00] a very insecure attachment style. And for those of you that maybe aren’t familiar, so my relational patterns were very chaotic, if you will.

So it was very hard for me to feel trust with other individuals. It was really hard for me to… You know, like, I had a fear of abandonment. And so often, if an unmet need happened, it absolutely for me, especially my past self, was not appropriate for me to expect somebody to meet that need. Now, at the same time, even if it is an unmet need, sometimes, not that we can collaborate where that person has to do something, but sometimes we wanna talk about it to help build some understanding.

So I have an example of that, this actually happened recently, which is really cool, just in time for our episode, I have a friend who is sober. And this is a friend I went to college with. And not that I was a party animal by any means, but you know, we drank alcohol. So, we drank alcohol together.

We were tipsy many a [00:19:00] times, to say the least, together. This friend is sober. I went a year without drinking , I’m 30 years old. I don’t know, I just wanted to, so I did it. So I went a year without drinking, and then I started here and there drinking again.

And this friend was around me, she got really activated by seeing me tipsy. Now, from her perspective, right, like, this is somebody who she used to drink alcohol with. Now she’s sober, and she wasn’t prepared for that, and she felt activated by that. So this friend ended up confronting me, and I honestly think she used the guide because I know we’ve talked about these topics many a time.

Which I haven’t asked her outright. I should ask her. But whether or not, it was very informed. so she ended up confronting me about it, and she said, ” I know,” You drinking alcohol has nothing to do with me. And I am not trying to [00:20:00] control what you were doing. Nothing like that.

And I want to talk to you about it because,” I care about you. I’m invested , in this relationship, and this thing is making me uncomfortable.” for other people outside of the situation, I could see how they might be like Oh, that was not an appropriate thing t- for her to say.

But for me, as somebody who loves and cares for her and has this connection with her, I wanted her to tell me that she had, if you will, this unmet need to have a sober friend, like, when we were around people. that is totally something that I am willing to do when we, do activities together.

I am totally okay with giving her a heads-up of, “Okay, I plan on having some alcohol today,” at the same time, that is up to her to regulate herself as well as decide, ” do I want to do this,” right?

Like, it’s not necessarily my, [00:21:00] responsibility and, like, my choices to make sure she feels not activated by that.

Nina: It’s a good example. So you’re saying like if you guys were gonna go out that night,

like you were, let’s say you were going to like a restaurant with like tapas, and you were like, “I wanna have some sangria.” But you know, you probably wouldn’t at this, I’m guessing in this kind of friendship where she has expressed that is really hard for me, I think it would be totally appropriate for you not to,

or maybe you guys just choose a different kind of restaurant that is just not, know, that kind of … Maybe you guys go to a deli where it’s not, part of the vibe of the place, and you choose something that’s fun for both of you. I like that example, ‘ she wouldn’t bother telling you this, that it’s hard for her, if she didn’t feel close to you, didn’t feel okay being vulnerable around you, she had a pretty probably good idea that you would be considerate of it next time you guys are out together.

And that, you have to be pretty good friends-

Jewel: I did feel so much closer to her after we had that conversation because I could see that that was her investing in our relationship and in our connection, and she was being authentic and [00:22:00] real with me.

Now, I will say, so this particular friend, we do a lot of things with other friends, and she did not mind because we didn’t go to college with these other friends if those people were drinking. She has been sober since she’s known these individuals. So by seeing them drink alcohol, it’s not activating for her.

So I will say that’s where, like, it becomes a little bit more of , okay, we can negotiate what to do together, and a little bit more of , ” Hey, I’m telling you this. I don’t even feel like I have a right to ’cause I don’t want you to feel like I am policing you drinking when we get together with our friends, but here’s how it feels, for me.”

And she also, I will say, took her own responsibility for it, where she said, like, “This is something I am continuously working on.” And so what you said too about talking about the unmet need and as well as saying like, “Okay, this unmet need, how could I also meet this myself?” Or going deeper [00:23:00] with yourself.

I would say my friend also did that as well. She didn’t just bring it to me to solve, to fix, to, meet that need by any means. She brought it to me as a way of connecting deeper with me

Nina: I feel like I have done this a few times with friends where I think I get, If there’s like a conflict that arises that’s consistent, sometimes it’s about making plans, okay? And this is huge with the people who write into me and I, I feel it myself sometimes you know, if you feel like you’re always the one who sends the dates or you feel like you’re always the one who makes plans.

You’ve heard me talk about this on the podcast I am sure. I feel like if I really care about the relationship and it’s bothering me, I will say and have said to friends, “You know, you can send me dates.” I’ll send dates.” And they’re like, “Oh, that doesn’t work. That doesn’t work.” And then like I’ll run into them or we’ll talk on the phone and they’ll be like, “God, we haven’t seen you in so long.”

It’s like, well, you can send me dates. I’ll say it. And it’s a little confrontational.

it’s a little bit aggressive. I’m letting them know we haven’t seen each other [00:24:00] ’cause I send you dates. You say we’re busy, and then you don’t send dates.

I can only take us so far. There’s only so much I can do. But instead of just giving up, which I think a lot of people do do, they say, “Ugh, forget it. We’re never gonna see these people because they are so bad at making plans,” I will sort of teach them.

That sounds condescending, but I don’t mean it that way.

“If we wanna see each other, you either have to send me other dates, or when your calendar opens up, send me some dates, but that’s the only way we’re going to see each other ’cause every time I send dates you’re busy.”

It could be a little uncomfortable, but guess what? Now we have a date on the calendar.

Jewel: Yeah.

Nina: You know? So you have to say what’s the… What was the unmet need there? I’m like, or maybe it was more of an irritation I cannot be solely responsible for all of our plans.

Jewel: and too, you said aggressive. I would even use the word assertive

Nina: Yes, that’s a better word.

Jewel: Yeah, ’cause I, I, I think for some women, right, like, we’re like, “Oh, no, I don’t wanna be aggressive.” I don’t see that as aggressive at all. I see that as assertive and authentic, it reminds me too of, like, one of the little scripts I have here.

But this is also [00:25:00] such a great example before we go any further with the process for everybody hearing, like, this is how casual it can be too, this is how easy it can be to confront because like Nina just said, if it’s so easy, and I see it all the time, and I’m sure your email inbox is overflowing with it.

I’ve heard it on the podcast, but so many people are like, “Okay, well, then I am just going to not try. I’m just gonna take a step back.” And then what you’ve done is you’ve taken this, friendship bank account that you’ve already invested so, so, so much in, and you’re just like whatever.” Right? You don’t get the benefits in the long run, where And truly, that’s what confrontation is as well, is to be a little bit more authentic with, like, your experience. Another example that I have of that is,

Like, I have a very playful relationship with somebody that I made be my friend, and I say made be my friend. Obviously, she consented to this, and we are friends. Somebody that I used a lot of stuff that you talk about on your podcast and that I have learned from all of the beautiful friendship experts that, we [00:26:00] know and love I’ve made this person be my friend,

Nina: But I think I need to hear some examples of how, ‘ I know that’s not the topic, but how did she do it?”

Jewel: Well, I decided to prioritize four women, and I was like, “Okay, these are the four women, like, I am going to put effort forth and energy towards, you know, I’m gonna see what happens, see where it goes. I’m gonna work on creating that consistency with these individuals.”

There’s a whole story I could say about that, but with this one friend, like, we very much banter, and I love that. And I swear banter is the sixth love language. . you know, at one point, this friend was making some jokes about my job, she clearly meant no malicious intent at all, but it was bothering me.

just the same way that you were being assertive with the plans, the same way as like, “Okay, hold on. That one, like, kind of stung. Like, can we maybe skip the jokes about my job today or

Nina: you. I wouldn’t like that. I would hate that. I would be like, “That’s not [00:27:00] funny to me.”

Yeah. No, I’m saying I’d be like you. I would

be like, Okay, that’s, that’s like a little too personal.”

Jewel: And I think sometimes women are so afraid of doing that, but truthfully, and I can’t speak for my friend, but she was like, “Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay.” And she hasn’t made a joke since. And so I would think about, like, I think in that friendship, now she knows if something is bothering me, I am going to talk to her about it.

Like, it helps build trust in these relationships, and it can be as casual as , “Hold on. That kinda stung. Like, maybe let’s skip the jokes,” or , “Okay, you could send me some plans, girl,” you know?

Nina: That’s a great example, and I love your point that it gave her the message that she can assume that unless you let her know, that things are probably fine

Jewel: Yeah. Yeah, then things are probably fine. Exactly.

Nina: I like that you’re prioritizing four friends. That’s very Anna Goldfarb. Did that come from Anna?

Jewel: No, that, that was way before her book came out, and that was just me… [00:28:00] Honestly, I had read Friendtimacy, Shasta Nelson’s book, for the first time, and I was like, “I can’t do this with everybody I’ve been trying to do this with. I need to chill.” And so I was like, “Okay, I’m just gonna prioritize these four women and just go from there.”

Nina: That’s great advice for everybody. I mean, you cannot be an amazing, amazing, excellent, attentive friend to everyone. You just can’t

Jewel: Mm-hmm. Just to reiterate, so wait, ’cause we kinda took a little tangent there, but just to reiterate and come back. So identifying in the beginning, like, okay, what’s actually bothering me? I find it’s helpful to figure out, okay, which one of these three things is it? then from there, number two, is this a pattern or a one-time thing?

Am I still going to care about this in a week? Now, one thing you touched on that I really don’t wanna miss is that you said, “Okay, is this gonna hurt the friendship in the long run?” And I think that is really key of a framing of , okay, am I still gonna care about this in a week? Is this going to hurt the friendship in the long run, is also a great question.

Because, for example, [00:29:00] with the job jokes, those were going to hurt the friendship that we had in the long run. Whereas if somebody just made one joke one time and it wasn’t that big of a deal, it, you know what I mean? Like, that wouldn’t hurt our connection in the long term, for me personally

Nina: And it might hurt it to bring it up. I actually, is it gonna hurt the friendship is, is a good one, and it’s important in both directions. is it going to hurt the friendship to bring it up or not to bring it up? If you are gonna let something fester, will it hurt the friendship?

And sometimes, I, it is worth asking, is it going to feel nitpicky and like we are overly expecting perfection to bring it up, and it could hurt it in that way. It’s hard

Jewel: It is, it is, absolutely. with that, I will say I think it’s really good, good to go back to like, okay, is this a pattern or a one-time thing? If it is a one-time thing, I personally would recommend doing what you need to do to care for yourself about that. Now the one-time thing, right, [00:30:00] it, it depends.

Like I’m talking about a joke right now, and I would say personally that that would be a little nitpicky to be like, “Hey, this one like little tiny offhanded comment that you said, bothered me.” I would say that would be, if you will, nitpicky to talk to a friend about. However, the one-time thing, you know, every friendship’s different, could be so big.

It could be, I don’t know, I don’t wanna think of anything super horrible, but

something

Nina: that was, like, in front of a lot of people. It could-

if it’s just a banter between the two of you, it could be the same joke, but if it’s just the two of you at a table versus in front of six other people, even if it was just the one time, I would say that carries a bigger weight.

Now, we’re into the zone of you humiliated me. That’s different than having your feelings hurt for a second. Embarrassment in front of other people, I mean, is, is a bigger offense in my opinion

Jewel: Yeah, and I think that’s good to gauge, and everybody listening is gonna have slightly different answers. I think the other questions will help, too. Then the other question that I would have [00:31:00] after this one after you decide, like, okay, is this going to affect the friendship in the long run?

After you ask, “Am I gonna care about this in a week?” is also to ask yourself, is this friend, emotionally safe? And now, the reason why I have this question in here is because I had some clients who were trying really, really hard in the past to be friends with people who really just were not kind to them.

I would be remiss if I didn’t include a question where you could, check in with yourself of okay, is this friend emotionally safe? Now, emotionally safe can mean different things to different people because, like I said, for many of us if we grow up with certain traumas, if we grow up with social traumas, we just might feel unsafe in social settings in a lot of ways, and that’s good to know, and that’s on, us, right?

But do you trust them to respond with openness? Do you trust them with your vulnerability? Or even just, like, is this somebody that I want to continue to invest in? ‘Cause we are talking about your time and [00:32:00] your energy. if it’s a newer friend, and let’s say, they made one of those jokes in front of other people, and you wanna talk about it you might not know, oh, is this person emotionally safe, or do I feel emotionally safe with this person?

Because that’s something that happens when you have built up, you

Nina: Yeah, that’s true. You might not know

Jewel: Yeah, you might not know, my opinion in this is a great way to find out.

Nina: Yes, that’s true. There you go. Now you’re like testing the friendship, but not in the testing way that I hate to say. I hate when people test. The, the the testing I hate is what we talked about earlier, which is, “Okay, they’re terrible at making plans. I’m just gonna stop trying forever,” to show them.

It’s like, well, okay, now you really did lose a friend. That’s it.

This is dipping your toe in testing

Jewel: Now I’ll, I’ll know, right? Because I told you earlier I was prioritizing those four women, I ended up confronting one of those – women during that process, I was really nervous to do it. This was a newer friendship, but I’m so glad I did because it brought us so much [00:33:00] closer because it really increased our vulnerability, right?

So I was like, “Okay, well, at least I’ll know if this is somebody that I can have this, like, deeper relationship with or if I need to prioritize somebody else in that, fourth spot

Nina: That’s right. You only got the four slots for you, everyone has a different number of slots, but that’s a good point. That’s great

Jewel: And then the next question, I’m gonna be frank with you, and I really wanna hear your thoughts about it, because this one I put in there and I kept in there, ’cause again, I’ve been stewing on this for, like, five years. Because I do think it’s really good to also, like you said earlier, be there for yourself with these things.

However, I don’t know if I love the wording of it. the reason why is I find so often on the internet we’re, like, trying to make sure that we’re, like, absolutely perfectly regulated and calm before we’d say anything to anybody, and I don’t think we need to do that. I think that really can prevent us from confronting people.

the next question is: Do I have the capacity to show up how I [00:34:00] want? I wanna say give it a 70/30 gauge, I might still be hurt or pissed about something, but can I be, calm enough to articulate my feelings and be willing to have a meaningful exchange with somebody?

And I’m not just, reacting to them. At the same time, if I always waited until I was completely calm to confront somebody, I don’t think I ever would.

Nina: Right, and that’s where the festering would come in. So maybe it you don’t feel so upset about it anymore, but it never got resolved,

Jewel: Another question that I have for this is can I be regulated enough?

Nina: Okay, I think enough is a great word because it really holds a lot of meaning. It, means really all the things you said. I’m still upset, I may cry, I may raise my voice a little bit, my heart might beat a little fast. But you’re- have enough perspective, you’re calm enough that, that you’re not looking to light a friendship on fire

Jewel: Yeah. beautiful. Did you guys hear? I just got Nina’s approval on something.

Nina: you did. You [00:35:00] did

Jewel: And so , Just to go over that really quickly for everybody, I would say ask yourself Okay, what’s actually bothering me?” It might be one of those three things that we talked about.

Is it an unmet need? Is it a boundary? Is it an irritation? Then ask yourself, is this a pattern or a one-time thing? Am I gonna care about this in a week? Is this going to linger and impact our friendship? Next question: is this friend emotionally safe? the last one, like, do I have the capacity to show up how I want?

Am I regulated enough to express this clearly and kindly? this is how we can set ourselves up to confront people. we might not get, the exact response that we are looking for, and I think that is another topic to discuss,

however, I do think that this process can help you, if you will, like, regulate yourself, get clear on what’s going on for you, and that process, I think, can really help set you up to again, have a more meaningful exchange with somebody, where you [00:36:00] both walk away feeling a little bit more connected. There are some scripts that I have for you, but I, I will pause here to see if there’s anything else you wanna add

Nina: Before we go to the scripts, I just wanna say you made such an excellent point. A lot of excellent points, but the most recent one was pointing out something we don’t talk about enough, is like you can set yourself up for this confrontation or just little discussion or just an offhand like, “Hey, that bothered me.”

It doesn’t have to be like a big confrontation like we’ve talked about, but you cannot control the other person’s reaction.

So you may not get the reaction you want. Or they may be really respectful, but not change the behavior. The one with the dates and my, a couple of my friends is a good example of I could have said that, and they could have been like, “Yes, absolutely, I’m gonna try.

I’ll send dates.” And then they might not send dates. you cannot control anyone else. All you can really do is state your needs, your preferences, your disappointments, like all the things that you might wanna bring to the table, and then it’s up to them to hear you, and not just hear you, ’cause hearing you respectfully is one thing, and that’s great.

But they may not [00:37:00] change their behavior It’s almost like a different episode, deciding whether you wanna continue with the friendship or not. But we’re just talking about at least having the conversation, like giving that friendship a chance.

Jewel: And that’s exactly how I think of it, is giving that friendship a chance giving that person a chance for them to show up. Like the example I said earlier of my friend who, confronted me about drinking, like I’m so glad that she, said that because it really deepened our bond.

I would be remiss if she didn’t give me a chance to, collaborate with her on that, even if it is if you will, none of my responsibility. That’s part of these meaningful relationships

Nina: All right, let’s do some scripts

Jewel: some scripts that I have, so one we already talked about, which is, like, the casual little check-in.

Casual just saying it in the moment is best, but also if it is a reoccurring thing, so for example, we did the plans earlier, and we did the [00:38:00] situation with the jokes. Like, if those are reoccurring things, like, then you can prepare to bring it up in the moment the next time it happens, the next one is reflective repair. this is good to use when, someone has hurt you emotionally and you want to bridge that gap. You wanna remain close. So saying something like, “Can I tell you something that’s been on my mind? I have felt off since,” insert situation, “and I don’t want to let it linger.”

Nina: Those are great words. People should have this written down somewhere. “Can I tell you something that’s been on my mind? I’ve been feeling off since,” name the thing. ” I don’t want to let it linger.” And it’s a gift. You’re making an investment in this friendship

Jewel: Exactly. The third one that I have here is, if this is a, boundary or a pattern break, like this one really works well for that. So like, “Okay, I’ve noticed this has come up a few times, and I need to be honest,” You know, “It’s not sitting well with me, and I need insert clear [00:39:00] request or change for us to keep feeling close.”

the reason why I include the, “for us to keep feeling close” is because, again, I can’t say this enough, confrontation is an investment in the friendship.

that is ultimately my goal in creating these scripts, is for y’all to set yourselves up to have that result. the fourth one that I have here, this one came from so many clients saying , “Oh, my friendship has, like, felt a little distant recently,” or , “I’ve had this friend and we’re drifting apart.”

we know, friendships change every seven years, somebody who might have been your best friend becomes, a friend that you talk to every so often, and somebody, you know, who you just met at work becomes a really close friend., Our friendships change and shift, and that’s a beautiful thing about friendship, and I know that that transition can hurt.

And sometimes we want to address that or we want to see, like, okay, is there a different way that we want to connect? I call this [00:40:00] the connection gap conversation. It could sound like this: “I’ve been feeling disconnected lately.

I really value this friendship. Can we talk about how we’re both feeling?” Now, the reason why I include this one is because again, let’s say somebody has, moved across the country, and so they’re not prioritizing your friendship with you as much. They’re trying to build up their community where they’re at.

That makes sense, and we get to love and appreciate them and still feel connected with them, and our friendship may change, and that’s okay. asking them, , “Can we both talk about how we’re feeling?” is really key here. Because when it comes to disconnection it might be a situation like that where we need to both be understanding of our circumstances.

But it also might be this person might be completely aloof. I have used this one, and this person would be like, “I had no idea that you felt like we were drifting apart. I’m so glad you brought this up because I feel really connected to you.” And then I was like, “Oh, [00:41:00] okay. I… Maybe, you know, the way we connect is just changing and shifting,” and I was able to accept that.

Nina: This is the hardest one.

I’m gonna tell you, this is the hardest one because I think in a lot of these situations the other person does know and is okay with it. That’s just a hard truth, the scenario you brought up is a great one.

Someone moved and they are trying to build community where they are, and they are in a new job perhaps, or their spouse is in a new job and they’re get- let’s say they have kids, and they’re getting kids settled in a new school. It’s like there’s only so much bandwidth, and it may be that the relationship really is going to change.

let’s say we were prioritizing three to four people, and you were prioritizing that one person who moved, you really may need to replace that person as one of your top people. It doesn’t mean you have to end the friendship and have a whole breakup over it, but there’s just no way that it will be exactly what it was. And so having the conversation, the purpose maybe needs to be clear. The purpose being like, “I miss you,” and maybe there are some things we can do [00:42:00] to bridge this gap a little bit, but it’s never going to replicate being in the same town exactly.

Just has to be different. It’s not gonna be not a friendship. I mean, I’m, like, taking this made-up example really far, but I’m thinking that this is the hardest conversation. Actually, this scenario is an easier one because it’s not personal. Someone moved. it’s much harder when you’re both in the same town and you wanna talk about the change. I’m not saying people shouldn’t talk about it, I think it’s the hardest conversation of all the ones we’ve talked about

Jewel: Oh, absolutely because when you have invested so much into a friendship, of course, I feel like there’s grief that comes up. You know, I’ve been through this, I’m sure you have. I’m sure everybody listening has, and we all know that, that little aching hurt that can come from a friendship changing and shifting, or maybe we’ve even been on the other side, where we’re like, “Okay, I’m ready for this friendship to evolve, and I’m prioritizing other things and other people.”

I agree with you. I think it is a very tender conversation to [00:43:00] have, I personally am under the belief that it’s worth having the conversation because we have already invested so much. Then we know, right? Worst case scenario, we get closer or we know. We know to then prioritize other people, and I personally would rather have that clarity than just be wondering

Nina: I love what you said about now you know. Gosh, that is so powerful. Really, it’s true. We avoid a lot of these conversations ’cause we don’t want to know.

And I think if you’re going to have the, ” I feel like we’re drifting apart, can we talk about it?” conversation, you have to be willing to know that they may say something different, but if the behavior continues to be just like it was, then you, yeah, you have your answer. But you tried, and you, didn’t just assume you knew what was going on.

‘Cause maybe they aren’t drifting apart from you on purpose. Maybe there really is something going on, and it absolutely can be worth the conversation. A lot of times it’s not personal. lot of times things with friends really are situational, it doesn’t mean that they can [00:44:00] change it right there and then, though.

The situation that they’re in, it may still be happening. And so, in the meantime, you may have to prioritize other people, and then who knows what will happen after it. I’ve had so many friendships ebb and flow, sometimes they come back or I come back, and it really is situational. It’s like I hate to see people throw away friendships without communicating.

I think that’s a big part of the theme of this show. I, I hope you’ve heard that as a listener. you’re somebody I know who’s listened a lot.

Jewel: Yeah. I agree completely. and like you said, so much of it is situational, and even if the friend in this situation is like, I’m just in this phase of my life right now, and, I can’t prioritize, this friendship as much. Again, like you said, it doesn’t mean you then have to no longer be friends at that point.

Like, they can come back. I have also had a situation where me bringing this up to somebody, in that situation I was telling you about where I was like, “Hey, I, you know, am not feeling as, like, connected with you. We don’t hang out as much. We don’t talk as much, [00:45:00] and I, I miss you.” And this friend ended up telling me, “Oh my gosh, I had no idea.

But also thank you This is like a wake-up call for me because I have been really prioritizing my work above everything else. if you’re feeling that way, and I thought we were great ,” you know, it was such a wake-up call for this friend, and she was like, “Keep bringing it up,” I want to not have work be my entire life. there’s so many different situations that could make people drift apart, and that I just, like you said, and I have definitely gotten that message as a listener, I’m just so much bigger on, if we can communicate about it and we can make it not as dire of a thing as it is, I think both of those lessons, honestly more than anything else we’ve talked about today, I think are just so important. Which leads me to one big tip that I have for this, because we’ve talked about confrontation being an investment in the friendship.

But I also wanna [00:46:00] offer that it can be an investment in your authenticity in being assertive, like we talked about earlier. But also, I would rather communicate and rather know where somebody is at so that way I can prioritize where I would like to. I also want to have the mindset of overall, the majority of the time, being grateful for friendships.

And so one thing I really recommend that people do is no matter what you decide, even if you decide, at any point in the process you decide, “Okay, this person’s not emotionally safe,” or, you know, it actually is just a small irritation. No matter what, I really recommend that you thank the friendship. Now, you don’t have to actually, go to that friend and say, “Hey, thank you for being a part of this chapter of my life.

Thank you for X, Y, and Z.” But to yourself it really helps you not get jaded about friendship. I know [00:47:00] everybody listening clearly sees the value in friendship, and so it can just help remind you of that. I have recognized I don’t wanna be friends with certain people anymore and so on, and thinking that friendship, like just to me, myself, and I, has allowed me to still be open towards other people rather than to just focus on the hurt, the grief, or the resentment, or whatever else was going on on why I’m not close with that individual anymore

Nina: I love that. I actually wrote something similar with a similar mind. It was around Thanksgiving one of the past 10 years or so, and it was, it was with this idea of gratitude for the friendship, even the ones that ended.

And I’ll put that in the show notes, ’cause it’s one of my favorite things I’ve written, ’cause I really do believe that too. But I know you had one more thing you wanted to share with listeners. I wanna make sure we get to it

Jewel: Yes, absolutely. So like I said earlier, I’m working to bring social prescribing to the States, but I’m also working with this nonprofit. I am their program director. It’s called PS [00:48:00] Society, it was created to combat the loneliness epidemic for women. And so I wanted to put it on people’s radar, especially your listeners, because we want people that see the value in friendship and that want to join us in doing something about it.

So, our goal eventually at PS Society is to give people tools to have meaningful connections without it, them having to worry about things being aesthetic, without them having to plan , lots of time ahead without them having to do so much effort. ‘Cause I know people are busy. We are working really hard to put together something that is simple and easy where somebody can just pick it up and then start a, a little chapter near them. We’ve already done all of the work for you. You can just invite women to join you. we are looking to do that, and I would love to put that on everyone’s radar because I know that so many of you [00:49:00] listening, too, may also feel like, “Oh, well, I know all this stuff about friendship. I wish other people did.”

Nina: So is it a group that discusses these things? Is that what it is?

Jewel: Yes. So, we’re creating chapters where people discuss topics like this, discuss friendship, but also where they do activities immediately after. Now again, the activities, you don’t have to even print for them. we are making them so seamless where you can do them at the park, you can do them at your living room, and not have to plan a lot ahead.

But where you gather women, and we call it circling. So we’ll have a little bit of a bite-sized knowledge nugget for people about friendship and connection, and then there’s activities that follow that wh- that allow people to practice that. And so we’re looking for people who want to lead those groups.

As the program director, I’m creating this, and so I also wanna take a second and thank you, Nina, because if it wasn’t for people [00:50:00] like you, like, you know, Danielle Bayer Jackson, like Shaesta Nez, all of these leaders that you have also helped uplift, I mean, I wouldn’t have the meaningful friendships that I have.

Nina: That’s so, that means so much to me. I mean, it’s like the reason to, that I do what I do. And, I love that you’ve now created something that will help others do the same and have these kinds of conversations. It’s fantastic

Jewel: Your ripple effect just keeps going and going. So thank you

Nina: I’m just so grateful we finally got to meet, and now we’re connected. I feel deeply connected to my guests because we plan the episode, we talk intimately, and then I edit you for a long time and edit myself.

That’s what happens, so like the guest is done, and then I’m, still with the episode and promoting it and everything when it’s time. And so it’s like I feel a lot of connection and we are just obviously kindred spirits.

Jewel: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for saying that. I received that, and I cannot tell you how excited I have been for this. So thank you for making it work and having me. I really [00:51:00] am fangirling, so

Nina: I love it. That’s so nice. you know what’s next, and listeners know what’s next, which is come back next week. When our friendships are going well, we are happier all around